I'm BACK!! and I have good news!!

[Q_]

Best way to get and keep power:

Create a scapegoat and focus all our hate on a perticular group.

I AM NOT AFFRAID OF BEING KILLED BY A TERRORIST!!!!!!

I am way more concerned about lung cancer!!!!

This is a false fear. 3500 people tragically died in 2001 from a terrorist attack and that is horrible. Hundreds of thousands of Americans die from cancer every year, why don't we spend the 130 billion that we spent on Iraw on cancer research, it is more likely that I will die from that than from a terrorist. There is no reason for this fear!!!!

[Rian Jackson]

the difference Joel, is that you are supporting collective punishment.
can you not see the difference between making a whole ethnic group pay and making one person pay?

it's very simple. and no, i don't call this punishment, because i'm trying to point out where you are no longer being logical or rational. i in no way mean to bring ya down Joel, but like i said, I'm gong to call it out. i know you're quite intelligent. and as you fail to see the point that we're making, i have to assume it's not because you can't but because you don't want to. and i wonder just why that is.

very true, blyslv, we've had some of the same in Seattle. the stories i know best are the ones we got first hand from prisoners and from those who had been released. of course, even they are still facing deportation and have had their lives ruined. if they're sent back they'll be killed....

[blyslv]

your example is anecdotal.

Main Entry: an·ec·dot·al
Pronunciation: "a-nik-'dO-t&l
Function: adjective
1 a : of, relating to, or consisting of anecdotes <an anecdotal biography> b : ANECDOTIC 2 <my anecdotal uncle>
2 : based on or consisting of reports or observations of usually unscientific observers <anecdotal evidence>
3 : of, relating to, or being the depiction of a scene suggesting a story <anecdotal painting> <anecdotal detail>
- an·ec·dot·al·ly /-t&l-E/ adverb

True. so what? I never cliamed to be scientific. There's plenty of anecdotes similar to mine.

BTW I am familer with dictionary.com Thank you very much!

[stuart]

try this one instead Joel


Main Entry: 1ev·i·dence
Pronunciation: 'e-v&-d&n(t)s, -v&-"den(t)s
Function: noun
1 a : an outward sign : INDICATION b : something that furnishes proof : TESTIMONY; specifically : something legally submitted to a tribunal to ascertain the truth of a matter

[calicowboy925]

Sounds like another poor loser to me. No wonder with these radical anti-establishment ideals he is embroiled in a "civil rights lawsuit" and is another hapless victim of the man, as in the claims of being set back a year cuz' someone ripped him off of a $10k contract. Get with it brother, the country does NOT agree with your views, the seats won in the House, Senate and Executive branch are a clear signal to you and your kind. $10k, whats that a years worth of unemployment or other entitlement payments????

[Q_]

Get with it brother, the country does NOT agree with your views, the seats won in the House, Senate and Executive branch are a clear signal to you and your kind.

Ummm, excuse me, but as a citizen of this country I would appreciate it if you didn't speak for me.

Thankx

Hug & Kisses

[Rian Jackson]

our examples are the way things are.

scientific study and citations are only so much.

if i tell you how tear gas feels does that mean, because i'm not a doctor, it's not true??

[Rian Jackson]

Sounds like another poor loser to me. No wonder with these radical anti-establishment ideals he is embroiled in a "civil rights lawsuit" and is another hapless victim of the man, as in the claims of being set back a year cuz' someone ripped him off of a $10k contract. Get with it brother, the country does NOT agree with your views, the seats won in the House, Senate and Executive branch are a clear signal to you and your kind. $10k, whats that a years worth of unemployment or other entitlement payments????

what are you talking about?
i'm so confused.
did you mean to post on another thread or can you not read?

[blyslv]

Sounds like another poor loser to me. No wonder with these radical anti-establishment ideals he is embroiled in a "civil rights lawsuit" and is another hapless victim of the man, as in the claims of being set back a year cuz' someone ripped him off of a $10k contract. Get with it brother, the country does NOT agree with your views, the seats won in the House, Senate and Executive branch are a clear signal to you and your kind. $10k, whats that a years worth of unemployment or other entitlement payments????

Could you tell us what you re REALLY angry about? I'm guessing it's lack of validation as a youngster, but I'm willing to be schooled.

[Dr. Pyro]

blyslv, shouldn't you be out buying your lovely fiance a nice big ol' honking rock to go around her finger? And on your wedding day, let me choose the wine.

Doc

[samtzu]

*Ducking the confligration, Samtzu runs in a serpentine track, as fast as his feet will take him, through this thread. He thought he was entering a whine thread about a private lawsuit, and winds up dodging flaming accusations being hurled with reckless abandon at old aquaintences... he escapes out the current end of the thread and heads for the bar....*

[Johnny_wishbone]

Hmmm, you know, I work with a German, and he's been saying for the last year or so that the control methods of the US government are remarkably similar to the stuff that Hilter was doing. Just saying.

EL BINGO!!!
At least someone is catching on.

[Johnny_wishbone]

Best way to get and keep power:

Create a scapegoat and focus all our hate on a perticular group.

I AM NOT AFFRAID OF BEING KILLED BY A TERRORIST!!!!!!

I am way more concerned about lung cancer!!!!

This is a false fear. 3500 people tragically died in 2001 from a terrorist attack and that is horrible. Hundreds of thousands of Americans die from cancer every year, why don't we spend the 130 billion that we spent on Iraw on cancer research, it is more likely that I will die from that than from a terrorist. There is no reason for this fear!!!!

Double Bingo!!

[geekster]

Actually, automobiles are an example of a secret government program to weed the population of people with poor eye-hand coordination, depth perception and speed/distance judgement in order to breed a nation of better figher pilots!

[calsur]

When you have to start wearing these:

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScr ... badge.html

use the term NAZI again.

[sparkletarte]

I didn't say that in the US, the government is loading up people and heading to the gas chambers. However, a lot of the methods of governing people and laws that are being passed are very similar. Just the very fact that Bush governs by creating fear should be causing alarms bells to go off. He won the election based on fear. Are you any safer? No- in fact I'd say you are more in danger than before.

In Germany, Hitler passed laws that seriously restricted freedoms, just like the US, and like the US, didn't actually enforce them until later, once everyone got used to and forgot about them. The Patriot Act hasn't been used yet, you say, but it isn't going anywhere and I'll bet that in a couple years, it will be used regularly. And when people question it, the answer will be, well, it's been a law for years! What's the big deal! Too late to change it anyways... oh well, as long as they don't come for me, it should be fine...I'm white, I have a bit of money, I'll be okay....won't I?

Did you know it is now against the law to send homemade food products to the US? They might have something evil in them. You can get away with it for now, but for how long? It doesn't seem like a big deal, but it's just the thin edge of the wedge.

Did you know that US customs can now detain anyone enetering your country for any 'suspicion' and toss them in jail? They are not allowed to call lawyer, nor notify their families. This happened to a friend of mine in Vancouver. She was going to Alaska to work as a guide, and had a work visa, but they tossed her in the clink for 2 days because they suspected her of smuggling drugs (she doesn't even use them, so ironic), with no evidence whatsoever. She was in a cell next to a whole family that didn't speak English (surprise). She was not allowed any phone calls or contact with the outside world. They released her after two days- she had missed her flight, lost her money, didn't get any compensation nor apology. Now she doesn't think she can ever go to the US- because she is now a suspected terrorist...people involved or suspected of being involved with drugs are terrorists now, did you know that?

You may be able to make excuses for or downplay what is happening in the US, but from the outside looking in, it's fucked up.

[sparkletarte]

PS- Bush's grandpa was a financial backer of Hitler. Surprise!

~~~~~~~~~~

How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power

Rumours of a link between the US first family and the Nazi war machine have circulated for decades. Now the Guardian can reveal how repercussions of events that culminated in action under the Trading with the Enemy Act are still being felt by today's president

Ben Aris in Berlin and Duncan Campbell in Washington
Saturday September 25, 2004
The Guardian

George Bush's grandfather, the late US senator Prescott Bush, was a director and shareholder of companies that profited from their involvement with the financial backers of Nazi Germany.
The Guardian has obtained confirmation from newly discovered files in the US National Archives that a firm of which Prescott Bush was a director was involved with the financial architects of Nazism.

His business dealings, which continued until his company's assets were seized in 1942 under the Trading with the Enemy Act, has led more than 60 years later to a civil action for damages being brought in Germany against the Bush family by two former slave labourers at Auschwitz and to a hum of pre-election controversy.

The evidence has also prompted one former US Nazi war crimes prosecutor to argue that the late senator's action should have been grounds for prosecution for giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

The debate over Prescott Bush's behaviour has been bubbling under the surface for some time. There has been a steady internet chatter about the "Bush/Nazi" connection, much of it inaccurate and unfair. But the new documents, many of which were only declassified last year, show that even after America had entered the war and when there was already significant information about the Nazis' plans and policies, he worked for and profited from companies closely involved with the very German businesses that financed Hitler's rise to power. It has also been suggested that the money he made from these dealings helped to establish the Bush family fortune and set up its political dynasty.

Read on: http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,1 ... 40,00.html

[CoworkerLurker]

When you have to start wearing these:

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScr ... badge.html

use the term NAZI again.

Don'tcha think that if we wait till we're wearing them, it'll be too late?

In fact, if anybody starts having to wear those, we're all a little behind the eight ball.

The comparison is to early Nazi activity, in hopes of avoiding anything like late Nazi activity.

If the comparison is valid in any way, we have to think seriously about the implications. If it's not, we have to understand the differences better.

[stuart]

heard this mornning and made me think

we must realize we are closer to the beginning of the Iraq war than we are to the end
we must realize we are closer to the beginning of the war on terror than the end
we must realize we are closer to the beginning of the gross erosion of liberties than we are to the end
we must realize we are closer to the beginning of the harsh evangelical tilt in this nation than we are to the end

or something like that

[blyslv]

Doc, will you be my vinter?

[samtzu]

heard this mornning and made me think

we must realize we are closer to the beginning of the Iraq war than we are to the end
we must realize we are closer to the beginning of the war on terror than the end
we must realize we are closer to the beginning of the gross erosion of liberties than we are to the end
we must realize we are closer to the beginning of the harsh evangelical tilt in this nation than we are to the end

or something like that

It is sad... but it appears to be true. Now is the time to work against that trend. And we can do it. All it takes is deciding to do it, and finding a place within our own sphere of talent, work, ability, where we can make a difference. Even a small difference will help. As a good Muslim advised me recently, "Don't let the man grind you down"

[theCryptofishist]

heard this mornning and made me think

we must realize we are closer to the beginning of the Iraq war than we are to the end
we must realize we are closer to the beginning of the war on terror than the end
we must realize we are closer to the beginning of the gross erosion of liberties than we are to the end
we must realize we are closer to the beginning of the harsh evangelical tilt in this nation than we are to the end

or something like that

It is sad... but it appears to be true. Now is the time to work against that trend. And we can do it. All it takes is deciding to do it, and finding a place within our own sphere of talent, work, ability, where we can make a difference. Even a small difference will help. As a good Muslim advised me recently, "Don't let the man grind you down"

The first two seem absolutely true; I don't know how we can go through our process of realizing that it's a dead end and then come up with some sort of solution. I don't look forward to the reincarnation of the phrase "Peace with Honor."
#3 Oh, god I hope not. I'd hate to think the 50s are normal.
#4 It's been 24 YEARS. I could be dead if that's true.


Stu--you sure know how to put a lead weight on a girl's heart.

[bigsmokinjoe]

Bloody nice work Sparkle!A little of the truth for all to see.
As for me being a kiwi living in canada I am seriously weighing up if I'm coming to BM next year with this fuckin Fascist dictatorship in place, in what was one the land of the free...

[theCryptofishist]

Too late to change it anyways... oh well, as long as they don't come for me, it should be fine...I'm white, I have a bit of money, I'll be okay....won't I?

In Germany, they came first for the communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists but I didn't speak up because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time nobody was left to speak up.

I'm often pretty breezy about my "child-of-a-holocaust-survivor lite" status, but when people start disappering--Pay Attention.

[sparkletarte]

Okay, okay, I know I said I wasn't going to talk about US politics anymore, but this one is just too good to pass up: http://www.newamericancentury.org/

Hi, we're bigwigs in the US government and we want to run the world! Cheney, Rumsfeld, Jeb, and more:

Present and former members include several prominent members of the Republican Party and Bush Administration, including Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Jeb Bush, Richard Perle, Richard Armitage, Dick Cheney, Lewis Libby, William J. Bennett, Zalmay Khalilzad, and Ellen Bork, the wife of Robert Bork. A large number of its ideas and its members are associated with the neoconservative movement. After the election of George W. Bush, many of the PNAC's members were appointed to key positions within the new President's administration.

The Project for the New American Century is a non-profit educational organization dedicated to a few fundamental propositions: that American leadership is good both for America and for the world; that such leadership requires military strength, diplomatic energy and commitment to moral principle; and that too few political leaders today are making the case for global leadership.

The Project for the New American Century intends, through issue briefs, research papers, advocacy journalism, conferences, and seminars, to explain what American world leadership entails. It will also strive to rally support for a vigorous and principled policy of American international involvement and to stimulate useful public debate on foreign and defense policy and America's role in the world.

Of course, the United States must be prudent in how it exercises its power. But we cannot safely avoid the responsibilities of global leadership or the costs that are associated with its exercise. America has a vital role in maintaining peace and security in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. If we shirk our responsibilities, we invite challenges to our fundamental interests. The history of the 20th century should have taught us that it is important to shape circumstances before crises emerge, and to meet threats before they become dire. The history of this century should have taught us to embrace the cause of American leadership.

Our aim is to remind Americans of these lessons and to draw their consequences for today. Here are four consequences:

• we need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global
responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the future;

• we need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values;

• we need to promote the cause of political and economic freedom abroad;

• we need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles.

Such a Reaganite policy of military strength and moral clarity may not be fashionable today. But it is necessary if the United States is to build on the successes of this past century and to ensure our security and our greatness in the next.

Here's the wikipedia condensed version here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_fo ... an_Century

Mememe! That's part of the problem. We know that when we deal with the US in trade or or any type of issue, the US does not think about what works best for all involved, it's what works best for the US and it's 'almighty' dollar. Yes, we do all have to protect our own self interests, but we don't have to do it at the expense of everyone else involved. Call it co-operation or whatever, it's not part of US foreign policy. This is not to say that at times the US is not helpful to the world community and gives to countries in need, because you are and you do, but I'd venture that more often than not, it's not out of pure helpfulness and unselfishness, it's because it's somehow good for the US.

So yeah. Don't think for a minute that there aren't bigger, scarier things brewing.

[Rian Jackson]

there's been so much talk about moving north, or overseas.
but then, sometimes you have to fight from inside the system.
but then, what the hell am i doing? shit, still in confession more.

we've seen immigrants, Muslims, other people of colour, and activists targetted so far... no fly lists, round ups, not allowing people lawyers, extensive surveillance.

these are certainly danger signs. and while it's better than it was in the year surrounding the war's start, it's still going on.

i think it's that time when people stop noticing that's dangerous... for a while it was going to happen, and people said so, and no one believed it. and then it did. and then people believed us. and then they forgot.

apathy is so dangerous.

[samtzu]

Amen... those who see can wake up those that are asleep. All it takes is to tell them. However, in the primate paradigm, the voice that screams the loudest is the winner, and the howler monkeys are in power right now.

[stuart]

and yet so comforting

me, I think I want to sleep a little while.

I was talking with DougalDutch on the playa. We were remarking at how uplifting and incredible the global anti-war demonstrations were. A worldwide unified outcry. We were also lamenting how it 'didn't do fuck all' to quote Lee.

[Rian Jackson]

Amen... those who see can wake up those that are asleep. All it takes is to tell them.

i wish

[samtzu]

Amen... those who see can wake up those that are asleep. All it takes is to tell them.

i wish

Truth...

You may have to tell them over and over again... but it sinks in...