The Car Thread

[Skuzzy61]

...
The problem occurs after a hot run and stopping. There is just no place for the heat to go.
...

In my day... ... this phenomenon was called heat soak. Perhaps still is.
At least, open the hood.

In my garage sits a car belonging to my brother, with a 350 Chevy and conventional HEI ignition -- and a no spark condition. I haven't looked at it in months, but I do want to get it running.
Primary suspect is the power supply. This car originally had breaker points, and I expect the juice still goes thru a ballast resistor. The wiring is the worst I have ever seen. Turn on the ignition and the parking lights come on.

When I eventually get back to it, I reckon I will try a wire -- with fuse, yes -- straight from the battery. But I don't even know which terminal on the HEI it goes to. The previous butcher may perfectly well have done that wrong too.

I'm just kind'a thinking out loud. There must be 40-eleven websites with this info, and testing-procedures. But I will listen to the simplest version if it comes along.

(You don't want to know that the car is a 1973 Datsun 240 Z, bought sight unseen on eBay -- from Florida.)

Yes, heat soak. And yes, that is why you will see so many Cobras with the hood up after a run. It is not to show off the glowing red headers, although, at night it looks really cool. Then there are the rookies who just got the car running. The panic ensuing a fuel boil over is almost comical to watch, but scary too. We have had a couple of cars boil over while they were driving. Texas heat.

Most cannot use an insulator as they are already having hood clearance issues. I know I am having to consider a bulge in the hood if I go with a snorkle intake manifold. One of the cars has a unique solution. He added A/C so he could blow cool air at the carburetor and into the air intake. Twisted lot. lol!


Had a girl friend in high school who had a 327 in her 240Z. Scary fast car, but she was forever breaking the rear end of it.

[Captain Goddammit]

I used to want to build a V8 240, but the price of a decent 240 went up too much. Damn the things used to be practically free.
I thought the rearends were strong enough for a mild V8.
Guess not!

[Skuzzy61]

They probably are strong enough for a mild V8. But her twin 3 deuce, 450HP 327 was a bit too much, me thinks. When it loped at idle, the car would rock. It was scary. She was scary. hehe

Daughter of a librarian. Go figure.

[Elliot]

... We have had a couple of cars boil over while they were driving. Texas heat.
...

Regarding air flow in the "boiler room" while driving, it can be useful to identify high pressure areas and low pressure areas around the outside of the car. A common mistake is (or was) expecting hot air to exit at the rear of the hood. That can work... but only if there is no windshield to speak of. With a windshield, the windshield pushes against the air, causing high pressure at the base of the windshield.

That's why some cars have a "hood scoop" facing "the wrong way". Cowl Induction, somebody called it.

Another thing to keep in mind is the concept of Boundary Layer. No matter how fast the car's ground speed, the air molecules that are closest to the car travel with the car. Think of it as friction. That's why some hood scoops are "snorkels" -- taller than needed for engine clearance. This removes the scoop from the boundary layer, for actual ram effect.

Skuzzy, you know all this, I reckon, but many others don't, so I mention it.

[Captain Goddammit]

Yeah but we'd have to punish him severely if he put a '70s "boundary layer" scoop on his Cobra.

[ranger magnum]

It's never easy to predict what's going to be collectible and what's not. Porsche made a 356 notchback way back when. (not sure if it was an A or a B). Porsche didn't make many of them, and as such one would think they they more valuable.

They aren't. Why? Because they weren't well received by the public.

So it's tough to guess what's going to be collectible. My CL55 Mercedes is a blown v8 from the factory. It's a rocketship with 500 HP. And new it cost over 120K.. Now, they are worth only 15k. And there were only 5,000 or so made between 03 and 06. But because that are hell to maintain, they are not worth much. Same with Lamborghini. There aren't a lot of Gallardos made, and cars with only 25k on the clock are half of what they are new.

American iron is always the best bet for collecting. So I'd guess the big horsepower cars will be worth more down the line. ZR1, Hellcat, etc.

[Skuzzy61]

Yeah but we'd have to punish him severely if he put a '70s "boundary layer" scoop on his Cobra.

ROFL! I would have to accept the punishment and ridicule if I did that.

That said, my Cobra is going to *look* like every other Cobra, externally with a couple of subtle differences.

1) The hood scoop is going to have a screen in it. Why? Because it is not going to be a hood scoop. I am fabricating a duct under the hood to take air from the ginormous, gaping maw of the grill opening. It will reside along the top edge of the opening, out of site. To facilitate air going in that direction, there will be a grill. The grill will be a mesh with enough surface openings to allow enough air through it which the design will allow to exit. Going for a neutral pressure in the engine compartment. That grill will be behind the engine air intake. Going for 0 pressure in the intake duct at 75MPH.

2) A cantilevered air dam will drop down (air pressure operated) below the oil cooler opening, running the width of the front of the car, when the speed exceeds 50MPH. Help curb air from gathering under the car.

3) A full length body pan will be installed. Makes for a more laminar flow and with some carefully placed guides, I might actually get a negative pressure increase from the front to the back of the car.

4) A rear diffuser will be incorporated which will mimic the look of an extended fuel cell.

5) A third tail light will be incorporated top dead center (yes, I cannot hide this one). The real purpose of this is to duct air from the transmission tunnel (high pressure) to the upper rear deck lid (low pressure).

6) An airfoil will be incorporated around the three sides of the windshield frame whose sole purpose is it help re-establish a laminar flow around the the windshield.

7) A full shroud will direct air through the radiator blocking any attempt to get around it.

The brake cooling vents will be utilized to provide air to the low pressure area in the front wheel wells.

9) Okay, here is a big change. I am doing a proper gauge cluster above the steering wheel. Having the gauges off to the right is worthless when you are driving over 140MPH. It is simply too dangerous to look at them.

10) 6 speed instead of a 4 speed.

11) 428 ci small block (4 1/8" bore x 4" stroke). Genesis no longer casts the 427 block. It was the last source for those blocks.

12) IRS versus straight axle. Better handling and better ride. Less unsprung weight.

Those are things I already have penned up. Most will require some tweaking/studying to fine tune, but it is a start.

There are other internal changes to help move air through the car, but those will come after doing some aerodynamic testing. I'll be the lunatic on West Texas freeway (85MPH speed limit, flat as a board and just as straight) driving with about 8 manometers (I think that is all I can fit in the passenger seat) attached to various points in the car, gathering data, cutting up ABS and cardboard and trying different things.

My basic philosophical approach with this car has been. It is not an original Cobra so why not do what I think Carroll might have done today?

[Elliot]

Just one thought.... Race organizers have been known to ban movable aerodynamic devices. So you may want to make sure your item 2 is allowed.
.

[Elliot]

On that note... who can name the ultimate "movable aerodynamic device"?
Hint: It was made in Texas. (Scuzzy doesn't get to guess. I bet he knows.)

[Skuzzy61]

Just one thought.... Race organizers have been known to ban movable aerodynamic devices. So you may want to make sure your item 2 is allowed.
.

It will be lockable, but the only race I run in allows it.

I have some other plans (mostly related to the engine), but am researching patents to see if they are patentable.

And yes, I know what device you are referring to. Let's see how long it takes.

[Captain Goddammit]

Can I get a clarification?
Are you talking about something on a car, or just anything in general?
If it's race cars, then I'm guessing you might be referring to a certain race car that one might compare to a vacuum cleaner?

[Elliot]

Race car.

[Captain Goddammit]

(I edited last post to add more)

[Skuzzy61]

Never mind.

[Elliot]

Yup, Jim Hall's "sucker" car; the Chaparral 2J which ran in the Cam-Am series around 1970.
The "movable parts" included two fans powered by a small two-stroke engine. This worked the opposite of a hover craft, sucking the car to the ground.

Last autumn I bumped into Jim Hall Jr. at a car show in Southern California, which is probably why this was fresh in my mind.

From Wikipedia:
"The most unusual Chaparral is the 2J. On the chassis' sides bottom edges are articulated plastic skirts that seal against the ground (a technology that would later appear in Formula One). At the rear of the 2J are housed two fans (sourced from a military tank engine) driven by a single two stroke twin cylinder engine.[3] The car had a "skirt" made of Lexan extending to the ground on both sides, laterally on the back of the car, and laterally from just aft of the front wheels. It was integrated with the suspension system so the bottom of the skirt would maintain a distance of one inch from the ground regardless of G forces or anomalies in the road surface, thereby providing a zone within which the fans could create a partial vacuum which would provide a downforce on the order of 1.25–1.50 G of the car fully loaded (fuel, oil, coolant). This gave the car tremendous gripping power and enabled greater maneuverability at all speeds. Since it created the same levels of low pressure under the car at all speeds, down-force did not decrease at lower speeds. With other aerodynamic devices, down-force decreases as the car slows down or achieves too much of a slip angle, both of which were not problems for the "sucker car".

The 2J competed in the Can-Am series and qualified at least 2 seconds quicker than the next fastest car, but was not a success as it was plagued with mechanical problems. It ran for only one racing season, in 1970, after which it was outlawed by the Sports Car Club of America (SCCA). Although originally approved by the SCCA, they succumbed to pressure from other teams, McLaren in particular, who argued that the fans constituted "movable aerodynamic devices", outlawed by the international sanctioning body, the FIA, a rule first applied against the 2E's adjustable wing. There were also complaints from other drivers saying that whenever they drove behind it the fans would throw stones at their cars. "

[Skuzzy61]

Actually, the 1966 Chaparral 2E was the first design with a moveable wing. The driver used his left foot to alter the position of the wing while he drove. The car had a 2 speed automatic in it (go powerglide!), so the driver did not have to worry about shifts.

That was the one I was thinking of when you mentioned it Elliot.

[Captain Goddammit]

Wasn't there an Indy car or two that used fans to suck the car down to the track too?

The racing I'm most interested in anymore is land-speed, either El Mirage or Bonneville. That's entirely because it's what I consider the least "spoiled". The way the classes work, there's still room for and incentive for running any and all oddball unusual stuff. It's managed to remain largely small-time, without corporate pollution. Where else can you run a Buick straight 8 or a flathead Ford and be competitive?

[Skuzzy61]

Wasn't there an Indy car or two that used fans to suck the car down to the track too?

The racing I'm most interested in anymore is land-speed, either El Mirage or Bonneville. That's entirely because it's what I consider the least "spoiled". The way the classes work, there's still room for and incentive for running any and all oddball unusual stuff. It's managed to remain largely small-time, without corporate pollution. Where else can you run a Buick straight 8 or a flathead Ford and be competitive?

I do not recall any Indy cars using the fans, at least, not at the Indy 500.


Big Bend Open Race, in Texas, is that type of event. In the 124MPH class, the winner is the car which finishes with the highest average speed under 124MPH. During the race, the cars cannot exceed 124MPH. It is run like a rally event, for safety.

All you find, at that race, is a bunch of hot rod enthusiasts. No corporate sponsors at all. It is a lot of fun.

[Captain Goddammit]

Hey Skuzzy, it's great that you got on here, you've been the catalyst that made The Car Thread one of the most active on eplaya. (Yay!!) You're up to some really cool shit down there.
I still think you're gonna be completely screwed into a messed-up future of building a frivolous, useless, senseless Mutant Vehicle. But judging by the level of execution on your cars, it's gonna be awesome!

[Skuzzy61]

Who knew? Hehe.

Finally got some batteries for the camera. Will start posting some pics of the progress. Just cut out the 17 pieces of steel needed to construct the uprights for the IRS. Lot of welding, bending, cutting, and grinding to do.

The upper control arms are done.
One of the lower control arms is almost done. Needs the toe adjuster added to it and powder coated.
The pumpkin is out being rebuilt with an Eaton TruTrac added to it. 3:55 gears.
The axles are about to be sent off to Ohio to get cut down and resplined. These units are new, for a 2010 Explorer. Beefy CV joints and very strong axle for a 2100 pound car.

Once the lower control arms are done, then the real work starts. Adding the cage to the frame where it all gets bolted in. Fun stuff!

When I get the Cobra and Corvette done, I am building a completely new car from the ground up. My design. I might just give some though making it a mutant.

[Skuzzy61]

If I could figure out how to make a living out of building hot rods, I would be all over it. My singular problem is I have the technical knowledge and am quite capable of building them, but I have the business acumen of a brick.

I love this stuff.

[Captain Goddammit]

Yeah the truth is there are very few people making a good living building hot rods, and most of the big-name shops or builders rely on one or two wealthy repeat customers.
Then there's a few more making their living building hot rods on TV, but it's a tiny percentage and usually short-lived.

The older I get the less wrench turning I do, unless something is broken. I've gotten a little into custom lowered stretched rat-rodded bicycles because they cost a lot less and take up a lot less space. I pretty much never actually ride bikes though. Not even at Burning Man. That works to my advantage because my bikes can be as impractical as I like, who cares!

[Skuzzy61]

When I am not behind a computer writing code, I am outside turning wrenches, or doing something nasty to the latest metal acquisition.

I can hardly wait to get started on building the engine. It is going to be my crowning achievement. My Wife giggles at how I am like a kid at Christmas whenever a new part arrives for any given project.

Yep, hard to make a living in the auto industry anymore, doing much of anything.

[Skuzzy61]

Oops

[FIGJAM]

Why didn't the lambo hydro-lock???

[media]

[GreyCoyote]

Wasn't there an Indy car or two that used fans to suck the car down to the track too?

You may be thinking of the Chaparrel 2J. It used a pair of fans sourced from a tank that were powered by a separate 2-stroke/2-cyl engine. Not an Indycar, but it competed in CanAm for a year before it was outlawed by the sanctioning body. (It was two seconds faster than the closest competitor!)

[Elliot]

There seems to be an echo in here.
Scuzzy, I asked for the "ultimate" such car, not the first.
A really clever trick was used in Formula One recently. They ducted air from the front of the car to some important point at the rear. This duct ran along the footwell, and there was a hole between the duct and the footwell. Normally, most of the air would spill into the footwell. But the driver could close that opening with his knee, and that forced the air to continue thru the duct to where it affected something. So the car's aerodynamic system could be changed at speed, but had no moving part, thus complying with the no-moving-parts rule! Like most such innovations, it lasted one year. But clever!

[Skuzzy61]

Well, heck, we were on the same page, I was just looking at the top of the page, and you had the bottom covered.

Clever about moving the air around to get around rules.

I had an epiphany last night! No, it did not involve a trip to the hospital. It's been an idea itching at me for a year and I simply could not figure out how I was going to implement it as it was going to require some very high end milling gear to pull it off, but I figured out another way to get it done with the tools I have. WOOHOO!

It's one of those things which might have patent implications. Now I know how, I have to find out if it has ever been patented before.

[Tin Halo]

Porsche made a 356 notchback way back when. (not sure if it was an A or a B).

I had a'54 356/1500 Reutter Cabriolet in the studio this morning.

[Elliot]

Regarding electronics in modern cars... I don't know what to make of this, which is in the news today:

Feds: Non-Jeep car radios aren’t vulnerable to hacking

By Tom Krisher | AP January 9 at 12:15 PM

DETROIT — U.S. safety regulators have determined that only Fiat Chrysler radios have a security flaw that allowed friendly hackers to take control of a Jeep.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says it’s ending a five-month investigation into the vulnerabilities of automotive radios. The agency also said a recall of 1.4 million Jeep, Chrysler, Dodge and Ram vehicles closed the opening that allowed hackers to remotely take over a Jeep Cherokee.

The hack by security experts Charlie Miller and Chris Valasek touched off the investigation in July. They were able to change the vehicle’s speed and control the brakes, radio, windshield wipers and transmission.

The safety agency found that similar radios made by Harman International went to Volkswagen, Audi and Bentley, but that those vehicles have safety systems that would stop hackers.