Politics, Everyday, All day... morning, noon and night....II

[Box Burner]

[vargaso]

Whilst doing research I was reminded that Thomas Paine was an anarchist.

You do remember who Thomas Paine was don't you?



Paine recognized, as did no other writer of his time, the evils of government. Much of his writing is exposure of existing governmental wrong. Paine was perhaps the very earliest apostle of what to-day we call Anarchism.

“Society in every state is a blessing,” he wrote in one of the earliest of his books, “Common Sense,” “but government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.”

Never a believer in government, he wrote, “I am very decided in the opinion that the sum of necessary government is much less than is generally thought, and that we are not yet rid of the habit of excessive government... Excess of government only tends to incite to and create crimes which else had never existed.”

Paine was an ardent believer in civilization and education. Were men but sufficiently civilized, they would have no need for government. “The more perfect civilization is,” he says in his “Rights of Man,” “the less occasion has it for government, because the more does it regulate its own affairs, and govern itself... It is but few general laws that civilized life requires, and those of such common usefulness, that whether they are enforced by the forms of government or not, the effect will be nearly the same.”

“Government ought to be as much open to improvement as anything which appertains to man, instead of which it has been monopolized from age to age by the most ignorant and vicious of the human race.

“When it shall be said in any country in the world, my poor are happy; neither ignorance nor distress is to be found among them; my jails are empty of prisoners, my streets of beggars; the aged are not in want, the taxes are not oppressive; the rational world is my friend, because I am the friend of its happiness; when these things can be said, then may that country boast its constitution and its government.”

I'll take a healthy but not destructive skepticism of government over "anarchy" or whatever it is anarcho-libertarians would prefer.

[Elderberry]

It's easy to pull a few quotes out of context of a person's entire life to totally misrepresent what they stood for. Paine was totally for a democratic government and presented many ideas of how it should be formed and run. He also believed that the people should all be provided a living stipend, and his thoughts on this lead to what we now call social security. (Ed. And welfare) I suggest you actually read Common Sense and his other writings before posting those more radical quotations so you can more accurately portray what Paine actually stood for.

Many of his more radical quotes were directed at the British Monarchy, and Common Sense was primarily geared to riling up the masses in support of the war.

[ygmir]

some days I feel like such a Paine...........

[^Rhino!]

Once, when getting a pre-employment physical, I was examined by a Dr. Klutz. This was followed shortly thereafter by another examination by a Dr. Paine.


It destroyed my faith forever in the pre-employment medical system.

[ygmir]

I finally got my political focus in words:


I can only fully support the candidate who offers me a perpetual motion device.
In this, I can be confident that person is merely delusional, and not manipulative.

[Rez]

I finally got my political focus in words:


I can only fully support the candidate who offers me a perpetual motion device.
In this, I can be confident that person is merely delusional, and not manipulative.

I tried but they said they are only hiring circus clowns this year. I flunked finals in that class. .. Twice...

[tatonka]

I dont like any of them , but at least Bernie seems like a honest man.

[Rez]

I dont like any of them , but at least Bernie seems like a honest man.

I think the only thing I would trust from a Clinton is if Bill himself pointed to Hillary and said "I do not have sexual relations with that woman"

[Elderberry]

OMG That's actually true!

[ygmir]

OMG That's actually true!

haha , Elderberry, you're the only person I can think of that would be surprised by that.......hahahaaa

[Elderberry]

Really? I used to be a Hillary supporter. I don't care for her all that much anymore, and she ain't perfect, but somehow that struck me as the worst true thing I have ever read about her.

[Skuzzy61]

I think we all should just write in a vote of "no confidence". If "no confidence" wins, then we get to toss out the current candidates for a set of new ones to try again with. Repeat until we actually get a set of candidates we can talk intelligently about.

[Elderberry]

I think we all should just write in a vote of "no confidence". If "no confidence" wins, then we get to toss out the current candidates for a set of new ones to try again with. Repeat until we actually get a set of candidates we can talk intelligently about.

Ummm... I think we already have that candidate, duh! #feelthebern!

[ygmir]

hah yeah Elderberry....well, Bernie is the best there. Harpo was arguably he smartest Marx brother, too.

but really? you don't see much dishonesty, or amorality in Hillary?
I know you're smart, and have much honor. I didn't think myopic, though.

[Dr. Pyro]

but really? you don't see complete and absolute dishonesty and amorality in Hillary?

There, fixed it for you.

[CaffeineGirl]

I attended a caucus in WA state on Saturday. Never been to one before, but seemed a good year to start. Was kind of a cold, dreary day, the sort of day that young healthy people don't mind standing in for an hour or so, not so much the older crowd, of which I was one.

Most of the many Bernie supporters talked about being college students and how great it was that if he was elected they would get a free ride for college, their debts would disappear, and their medical costs would be taken care of through a single payer system that would abolish the health care industry. Convincing large numbers of people that those things could actually be passed thru congress and funded by the states and feds is about as big a lie as any of the candidates have told.

[Elderberry]

hah yeah Elderberry....well, Bernie is the best there. Harpo was arguably he smartest Marx brother, too.

but really? you don't see much dishonesty, or amorality in Hillary?
I know you're smart, and have much honor. I didn't think myopic, though.

I'm trying my best not to be a Bernie Bro damn it. She has changed almost every position she has ever had to match up with Sanders, and that's just for this election. And looking back on Bill's presidency, I'm not that keen on him anymore either.

And Sanders, if there is one thing that everybody should like about him is that he's really trying to get all of the people involved in their government--like it was supposed to be. You always know where he stands, agree with him or not, he's been fighting for those same issues for his entire life. If the people can get their voice back using Bernie Sanders as the vehicle to do this, you might actually have a say in those issues you might not agree with.

Anyway, that's my hope. Naive as it may be, I'm tired of seeing almost the entire population being disenfranchised and then blaming it on the poor when it's the 1% that is that are the real recipients of government welfare.

[ygmir]

I attended a caucus in WA state on Saturday. Never been to one before, but seemed a good year to start. Was kind of a cold, dreary day, the sort of day that young healthy people don't mind standing in for an hour or so, not so much the older crowd, of which I was one.

Most of the many Bernie supporters talked about being college students and how great it was that if he was elected they would get a free ride for college, their debts would disappear, and their medical costs would be taken care of through a single payer system that would abolish the health care industry. Convincing large numbers of people that those things could actually be passed thru congress and funded by the states and feds is about as big a lie as any of the candidates have told.

yeah a ton of Bernies support comes from people wanting "free stuff". and revenge.

[Elderberry]

Anybody that thinks that's "free stuff" needs to become better educated on the concept of free stuff.

[Roundabout]

yeah a ton of Bernies support comes from people wanting "free stuff". and revenge.

[Rez]

According to the U.S. Census Bureau's annual projections, the United States will enter 2015 with 320,090,857 people

And out of 320,090,857 people These are the 4 we get to pick from?

That is whats wrong with the system.

I'm a registered Republican. But I gotta say.. out of the 4, Bernie sucks less. BUT. although He may have good intentions "and I believe he truly does" I don't believe He has the kind of demeanor that forces politicians and government to get things done.

as far as heath care... 5 years ago I had a great Blue Cross Blue Shield policy for $160 a month.. 4 years ago it went up to $289 then 3 years ago they said it was not a plan approved by the health care act, and the new policy I would need would be $390 a month.

$160 to $390 in two years.. I now have no health care. 12 grand last year out of pocket between a foot surgery and jaw surgery. If I was in Canada you know how much that would of costed? I think I would rather see the 17 grand I pay a year in taxes go towards real health care rather then free phones and 600 in food stamps a month. I don't spend half that for myself.

Working hard doesn't pay off anymore. All I get from working 15 to 16 hours a day now is the piece of mind that I'm doing the right thing.

Anyway that is my opinion on the current political situation of this country.

[Skuzzy61]

Yes, the cost of health care has more than doubled while the coverage has been reduced. I just got a note from the insurance company that prescription co-pay amounts are increasing, again and the medical deductible is increasing. Is it a coincidence insurance companies have over 800 lobbyists and spent over $150M dollars lobbying for their best interests? Yes, our premiums at work.

Of course, that is just a drop in the bucket of the total dollars spent on lobbying.

Yes, I have also heard more people talk about voting against someone, rather that voting for anyone. Yes, it is a sad state of affairs when this is the best we get offered. Of course, the oligarchy will not care who it is, as long as it is someone they can easily manipulate. In that case, Hillary would be best as she has absolutely no compunction about lying, or doing anything it takes to grab power. Like many politicians, she only has her interests at heart, while the countries/peoples interests only matter if they coincide with hers.

Did I just sound like I would vote against Hillary? Damn,....I fell into the trap!

[Rez]

I agree 100%

Easy way I look at the broken health care system is.

Keeping a Healthy American working and paying taxes vs Not Keeping a Healthy American working and paying taxes.

With our Government Looking at the later as it's best choice tells you what kind of money they are making off of health care.

[ygmir]

Anybody that thinks that's "free stuff" needs to become better educated on the concept of free stuff.

I might suggest, Elderberry, you read more carefully what I wrote:
I did not say Bernies programs were "free stuff". I referred to some of his supporters as "wanting free stuff, and revenge".
Perhaps subtle, but they are very different.

[Elderberry]

Bernie Gets It Done: Sanders' Record of Pushing Through Major Reforms Will Surprise You.

[Elderberry]

Anybody that thinks that's "free stuff" needs to become better educated on the concept of free stuff.

I might suggest, Elderberry, you read more carefully what I wrote:
I did not say Bernies programs were "free stuff". I referred to some of his supporters as "wanting free stuff, and revenge".
Perhaps subtle, but they are very different.

I don't view it that way at all. I think to them "free stuff" means the same stuff we all used to get. I got a free college education when I got out of the service, as did the WWII vets--which was basically responsible most of the progress--social and economic, that made America what it was. And believe it or not, there were people back them that thought that giving the returning soldiers a $20.00 weekly unemployment stipend would encourage them all to be lazy and bring the country to ruin.

So no, it's not free stuff, it's bringing things back to where they should be to actually Make America Great Again. That "free stuff" is an investment in the future of our country. And if kids today feel "entitled" to what their parents and grandparents were afforded before them, I wouldn't call that "entitlement". I'd call it our social responsibility and obligation.

So stop being one of those old fuddie duddies that wants to deny veterans and children their $20.00 a week.

And who the hell was it that started his old thread up again anyway?

[Sham]

I see nothing good coming out of friends (or future former friends) discussing the semantics around this clusterfuck going on in this election. I think we can all at least agree that it's a mess from both sides.

[ygmir]

I see nothing good coming out of friends (or future former friends) discussing the semantics around this clusterfuck going on in this election. I think we can all at least agree that it's a mess from both sides.

yeah I see my point is totally missed.
feel free to run off at a tangent, JK, I do agree with what you are saying, but what you are saying does not match my point.

done.

[Elderberry]