Bad 2006 "RANGERS" stories anyone?

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:41 pm

I've read this, re-read it, and read it again. Slowly. Carefully. Methodically going over each post, each position and argument.

I'd love to see the video that is supposed to be available.

That being said the Rangers were instructed to establish a perimeter and it appears that is exactly what they were doing. Something/someone crossed that perimeter. It doesn't matter if it's man or machine, it crossed into the Ranger's circle of influence and work space. The Ranger in question had to make the best decision he could at the time on the intent of this intruder and not knowing for sure if it was heading towards self destruction (or what the heck it was doing in there to begin with) with the Uchronia art piece he tried his best to control the situation. This is his job...he was tasked with protecting the perimeter. He did what he needed to do.

Also not many people are familiar with robots...it's not everyday we interact with one so what may be manhandling and brute force to someone would be cautious and careful arresting of forward movement to someone else. The Ranger was out there to protect art...of all kinds...and it sounds to me that when faced with a difficult situation he did his very best.

I find myself siding with deMongolian here. I've wanted to Ranger for a long time so in this case I visualized myself in his position and I would have tried something similar or at least I think I would. And in visualizing this I thing deMongolian's getting a bad rap...one that's not deserved.

I know that flies in the face of what others have posted but I'm trying to apply some good old midwestern common sense to this. Try as I might the Ranger comes out on top no matter how nasty of a devil's advocate position I can take with it. deMongolian...I hope you come back to ranger next year and let this slide by you. It sounds like you did the best you could...and hindsight is 20/20. Until the rest of us are in your shoes staring down the same situation....perhaps giving the benefit of the doubt to a man who volunteered no less to do the job would be a good thing to do.

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:00 pm

and you think relying on some sorta pre-concieved set of rules and procedures is going to prepare you for every eventuality? this is burningman fer chrissakes, a giant sundial ball of ice, thirty foot flowers, flame cannons, an incredible autonomously interactive robot... at some point you have to walk in the same realm of creatitity the artists do in trying to grasp unique situations. there are a lot of these at the event, and the only way to keep them from happening in the first place is really severe restrictions that eventually suck the life and passion from certain art.

when you run into a situation like this, if you intend it or not those actions and behavior make a sizeable impact on the perceptions of others. the message you are sending is even more limitations on what people can feel free to try when these situations are not handled well in the rangers absence of clear direction and limited information.

but thats just the immediate issue at hand, the fact the rangers are more interested in protecting an image and defensive justifications create an even bigger problem of a rift between them and the community. its making the impression of an 'us' vs. 'them' mentality and no loger has the communities respect and support.

cant say i blame people anymore for that, not a big fan of the police attitude at bman.

Kinetic IV · Post by **Kinetic IV** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:06 pm

I stand by my post for looking at the immediate situation and the robot owner's post about damage. Yet SB, you're taking the big picture view and that makes sense too.

Welcome to another fucking Catch 22 situation...there's been a bunch of them lately.

One observation...the heat during the man's burn this year did a nice job of crowd control from what I could see. It pushed people back in a hurry....talk about ORG provided crowd control, they were flat moving back!

cornelius · Post by **cornelius** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:57 am

Yeah...Big Fucking Joke. Our robot gets knocked down and kicked the shit out of and we don't even get an "i'm sorry". COMMUNICATION! Tell the robot he had broken your perimeter. Show it the way to go. Don't you get it? You communicate to the operator by interacting with the robot. You wouldn't treat a drunken and staggering Burner that way would you? Just blind side him without warning?

Box Burner · Post by **Box Burner** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 2:10 am

One thing we have not heard is where was your spotter? Seems to me that one would be needed close to the robot. Have you seen the Mantis? It is not a robot and has human "inside" it. Yet is always has one or two spotters who are usually not more than 15 to 20 feet from it to make sure that both mantis and burners have a safe and fun time. So I would like to know where your spotter was? Just because you cannot foresee a problem does not mean that one will not come up. That kind of thinking is a big neon invitation for murphys law to poke you in the eye.

I agree that he should at least say "I'm sorry" but I do not see where the the oppertunity was given since this thread started with an attack.

try this:

Starting post
Hey ranger! did you know that you damaged our robot when you knocked him down?

ranger
I'm sorry. It moved within the perimeter that we set and I could not see an operator so I had to stop it. I did not mean to break it. How badly was it damaged?

This thread could have then moved on with more positive results for both parties.

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:57 am

taking the mantis and miniman out is a really big difference, once you don an eightypound, twelve foot puppet on your back its not the most nimble thing to swing around and out of peoples way. a robot being 'autonomous' does not have spotters or controllers.

but no, i am not just talking about the big picture. this is a pretty fucking good first hand example of how the rangers have been increasingly blind to how people are seeing thier attitude and behavior. and because of thier reaction you are seeing here, i am no longer going to place myself in a position to defend or support it.

i will back off a couple of steps, but not for long if i see it here again.

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:11 am

You communicate to the operator by interacting with the robot.

I call bullshit.

In the world of "no expectations," how can a ranger, or anyone besides the creators, be expected to know that?

I would have done the same thing had I been in the same situation. And I'd do it again on Saturday.

And I agree with BoxBurner: this topic could have had a positive resolution but all people seem to really want to do is attack each other. Honestly, the only person I've seen in here try to communicate rationally about the situation is the ranger in question. I think that says a lot.

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:14 am

i dont, but since you asked not to, i wont go into it.

Lorgasm · Post by **Lorgasm** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:26 am

Hey Spect,

One more hug to ya. Glad to have met you. Got you on tape. You rock.
((((((Hugs))))))

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:29 am

heh... spectabillis in tape, now thats a scary thought

*hugs back on ya* it was a pleasure meeting you two as well, and thanks for the show.

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:32 am

oh, fuck it, I don't know why I even try anymore. I guess I should just accept that all people everyone are disrespectful assholes, and go home and blow my brains out.

Thanks for being good li'l burners, y'all.

Fat SAM · Post by **Fat SAM** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 10:45 am

I'd love to say that I agree with Cornelius and talk a bunch of shit about the robo-destruction...I had a really shitty encounter with rangers this year, too...but I can't agree. The tape will show how "gently laid down" the robot was. I think if it was just thrown over to the side, that would be unnecessary use of force, but nobody has time in the middle of doing their work to fuck around with guessing games and stuff. I can't see trying to talk to the robot in the middle of doing a job. It just doesn't wash.

It's natural to be defensive about your art piece, particularly something some intricately made, but it's natural to expect nobody but you to take care of your things the way you would. That's how people are.

Better, Cornelius, just to take a deep breath and regroup. Bitching usually only ends up reflecting badly on yourself.

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:10 pm

yo sam, i have something unrelated to ask but since the pm's dont work i cant.

dj_john69 · Post by **dj_john69** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:41 pm

Here's an article about he robot: http://www.newsreview.com/reno/Content?oid=oid%3A150738

So, Ranger aka robot killer, if it was a person and NOT a robot...would you have tackled the person too ??

~John

Booker · Post by **Booker** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 2:12 pm

cornelius wrote:He didn't realize he had penetrated the perimeter. Lack of communication people, that's the root of this conflict.

So y'all who created the machine didn't give it a necessary capability, nor did you take responsibility yourselves by providing the spotter mentioned earlier. Y'all created the problem, and I'd say it was solved appropriately. Take more responsibility for your art, Cornelius, and you'll be surprised how much more positive your interactions with the Rangers become.

And to clarify, I was definitely talking about Black Rock Rangers, not the pros from the BLM. Yes, BRRangers drive their own cars, and many many of them are SUVs. (Some of my best friends, and all that.)

cornelius · Post by **cornelius** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 2:40 pm

Box Burner wrote:
Starting post
Hey ranger! did you know that you damaged our robot when you knocked him down?

ranger
I'm sorry. It moved within the perimeter that we set and I could not see an operator so I had to stop it. I did not mean to break it. How badly was it damaged?

This thread could have then moved on with more positive results for both parties.

I agree Box. It coulda been handled nicer. Bitterman gets very defensive very quickly. We of TEAM ROBOT love our 'bot more than any of you HU-mans can know. A few of you have physically loved him more than any of us would dare.

As far as this incident is concerned, we appreciate the speed and professionalism the Org and Rangers responded to this situation behind closed emails. I believe this thread was started to vent our anger and frustration over the whole incident. We feel we were unjustly attacked, the Rangers feel they did what needed to be done. I apologize to you Mongolia for throwing curse words at you.

THANK YOU TO ALL THE ROBOT DEFENDERS ON THIS THREAD.

We did not intend to have TEAM ROBOT go head to head with the Rangers and Org. The next time we run a solo, deep Playa mission we will be sure and check in with the Black Rock Rangers and make sure it's okay to proceed. Or at least have them radio around to each other so no more surprise attacks occur on their end, and no more barrier penetration occurs on our end. PEACE.

http://www.robotronia.com

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 4:57 pm

cornelius wrote:As far as this incident is concerned, we appreciate the speed and professionalism the Org and Rangers responded to this situation behind closed emails.

you are very, very fortunate.

unfortunately this is what it takes sometimes, so i will also throw my apologies twords the mongol man despite not agreeing with what went down and rangers reactions to it here.

and unfortunately i will still no longer place myself in a position to defend or support them. not until they are no longer blind to how people are seeing thier attitude and behavior. i refuse to support image and ego protection that only serves to widen the already sizeable rift between them and the community.

dj_john69 · Post by **dj_john69** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:34 pm

I totally agree with you Spectabillis !! SOME of new age rangers think that their shit doesn't stink and they think they can do whatever the fuck they want to because the are a ranger. BIG FUCKING DEAL if you are a ranger !! You are NOT a cop...just a lil ranger for a week.

Keep it real or dont volunteer to be a ranger. It only takes one bad ranger to set a bad rap for the rest.

~John

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 12:15 pm

Keep it real or dont volunteer to be a ranger. It only takes one bad ranger to set a bad rap for the rest.

willfixit · Post by **willfixit** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:23 am

As a Ranger myself, i know that areas around the burn platforms AFTER pryo is loaded is a very dangerous place. I once watched the pryo pros running like rabbits when a RC plane started flying in their area of the man when they were loading up the man. Rangers aren't in BRC to make your day a bummer. If we had in anyway, we sorry, we are trying our best to make your burn a wonderful and inlightening experience, But sometimes we have to make split second decessions on the best information on the second..I woken a dozen or so folks from a sound sleep because they did not breath right or were not sitting like they fell asleep. I had to explain the laws of physics to the drunken climbers..I just want everyone to have there greatest burn possible and live through it..Remember, folks die, get in trouble and need some help from time to time and thats why we volentear in BRC. Eating dust for 8 to 12 hours looking out for you.... is why we are there. Praise the Rangers....We don't do it for us, we do it for you...
Love you BLACK ROCK CITY and ALL it's people
Ranger Guardian

Sensei · Post by **Sensei** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:55 am

Ivy wrote:oh, fuck it, I don't know why I even try anymore. I guess I should just accept that all people everyone are disrespectful assholes, and go home and blow my brains out.

Thanks for being good li'l burners, y'all.

I sincerely hope you're feeling better, Ivy.

akmojo · Post by **akmojo** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:59 am

I wasn't there but have read this thread several times over....
there is no doubt that the robot was in an area that was off limits and being prepped for a burn..... I have the impression that the robot was more or less cruising on it's own....
it appears that the owners are pissed that their robot was dropped for being in a danger zone and was damaged....
funny how they are so quick to place blame on others and make insulting and rude comments (and, btw, I am offended at the HU-man term used) about someone that WAS responsible and doing their job....
if this damn piece of metal was SO important then why wasn't there a spotter shadowing it..?? and if it was sent off alone then they should be mature enough to understand why it was dropped for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.... what IF it had had a malfunction and didn't respond to verbal commands... what IF it had motored into the burn and ignited it.... metal can be fixed but people are buried.. thats the bottom line..... thats REALITY...
I know very little about robots and would have dropped it's metal ass
also in that situation....
what IF it had ignited the burn.. would DJ_john69 as quickly made his comments and called the camp PEOPLEKILLERS..????
it appears that was he not there yet he can so easily make his foul comments.. and he calls the rangers names huh...... take a long look in the mirror.. sad to say but all these years you thought you had a moustache and now you need to know that it is really butt hair around your asshole mouth.... hows that for name calling from someone that wasn't there......just trying to communicate in a way you understand and up to your standards....
BM has obviously evolved and as much as everyone seems to want a peaceful utopia and freedom of expression there are now large numbers that don't care and only want to get fucked up and raise hell because they think there are no standards of responsibility and they can do whatever they want without regard to others....
before you blame the rangers maybe you need to walk in their shoes....
if there is 1 ass of a ranger per hundred, how many ass burners do you think there are per thousand..?
I came into this neutral, read the comments here and formulated my opinion....not really sticking up for anyone but am tired of reading about all this blaming others when if they had been following their machine and in more control then none of this would have happened.....

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:56 pm

... and what if someone secretly programmed it for full-on homicidal mode!? what if someone pulled a night-ops ninja run and replaced its hands with hidden poison dart shooting guns!? what if a solar flare dosed it with freakish electomagnetic waves and scrambled its programming!? what if the owners had pre-programmed it to scan human sized objects in an attempt to profile match it with those wearing khaki and intentionally ignore comments!?

KILL ALL ROBOTS ON THE PLAYA! THREAT THREAT THREAT! LETS TAKE OUR AGRESSION OUT ON ALL ROBOTS THAT HAVE INFILTRATED OUR MANUFACTURING FACILITIES AND REPLACED OUR RED-BLOODED GREAT AMERICAN WORKFORCE!

its been interesting to see how others read into things, pull apart whats relevant to whatever issue they see, and argue things from that point of view.

Ron · Post by **Ron** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:52 pm

spectabillis wrote:......its been interesting to see how others read into things, pull apart whats relevant to whatever issue they see, and argue things from that point of view.

Has been, indeed. So can we guess that the above example of fine communication typifies the way you'd like the board to be in the future?

Ron

Toolmaker · Post by **Toolmaker** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 4:00 pm

[quote="spectabillis"]... and what if someone secretly programmed it for full-on homicidal mode!? what if someone pulled a night-ops ninja run and replaced its hands with hidden poison dart shooting guns!? what if a solar flare dosed it with freakish electomagnetic waves and scrambled its programming!? what if the owners had pre-programmed it to scan human sized objects in an attempt to profile match it with those wearing khaki and intentionally ignore comments!?

KILL ALL ROBOTS ON THE PLAYA! THREAT THREAT THREAT! LETS TAKE OUR AGRESSION OUT ON ALL ROBOTS THAT HAVE INFILTRATED OUR MANUFACTURING FACILITIES AND REPLACED OUR RED-BLOODED GREAT AMERICAN WORKFORCE!

its been interesting to see how others read into things, pull apart whats relevant to whatever issue they see, and argue things from that point of view.[/quote]

I couldn't agree with SpecB more on this issue. As a machinist and toolmaker robots are my mortal enemy. They threaten my ability to feed myself and are just plain rude.

On a serious note.. I can only express an opinion on what I may have done faced with the following situation:

An autonomous piece of machinery with no operator/handler/babysitter on the loose near fuel and pyro. Me charged with establishing/enforcing a perimeter. Robot goes down with little or no thought. I would not do more than bring the bot down to the ground so it could no longer travel.

Being a machinist I often run machinery, some of it quite dangerous. My CNC mill runs at 12,000 RPM and I tend to use carbide tooling, if I were to leave it running unattended for even 1 second I endanger EVERYONE in the shop. I have seen FAR TOO MANY industrial accidents. I feel as though the safety of the participants should be placed above the feelings of a machine. Sorry to offend anyone but I put HU-man/HU-woman WAY above MA-chine.

Second guessing does nobody any good. Its just good that someone took it down before it got to the pyro/fuel.. one loose wire on that thing, one spark, and boom.

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:05 pm

it was just a robot, an art piece with limited mobility.

my next project should be a bunch of radio controlled mice that scurry about while i videotape squealing rangers jumping on top of their trucks. or maybe a paraplegic in a motorized wheelchair? would be interesting to portray them as terrorists.

burningman uber alles

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:09 pm

d6 wrote:Gotta go, I'm accepting a laureate for my work with the Mohs Scale.....

I swear, that's the best fucking line I've ever read on the eplaya. Kudos.

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 9:16 am

""Eating dust for 8 to 12 hours looking out for you.... ""

A ranger wrote that. It reeks of sanctomonius, self-pitying, holier then thou crap. So you volunteer to protect drunks from themselves? Good for you, if that's what turns you on so be it. I won't get in your way. But you're a volunteer, seek your kudos from within, not by whining about the job you yourself have choosen to do.

Put the back of your hand to your forehead and adopt that beleagured look common to authority freaks seeking pity and free beer, it's a very fetching look.

One day the Rangers will have their own Night of the Long Knives.

d6 · Post by d6 » Mon Oct 16, 2006 9:52 am

I cant even begin to calculate how much dust I've eaten, making stuff for Brc, but since this acidhorse has resurfaced, all I can say is:

"die thread die" - thats germanian for "the thread the"...................

argh, ok, so there is now a way to see some video of the robot in public, anyone who has not seen it function can now put it to scale, and do what you want with it.

Robo-haters, expatiation skills not-withstanding, do what you will.

I'm not posting a direct link because I'm "link-challenged", and would rather eat cereal at this particular moment.

goto:
www.youtube.com
keywords: hotshot few thousand robot

The entire youtube thread is something like: "hotshot few thousand goes to hollywood" and was posted by tsunami11, so you can search it by "author" as well.
Thats not me, incindentally.
If you'd like to see older footage, there are also video clips @ www.robotronia.com, and even www.myspace.com/munzbot

d6, picking up my spoon now................(or should i be sharpening my knife for the long night)?

anyone who'd care to collaborate on a version of "robot uber alles" ?
robot bastards unite!

spectabillis · Post by **spectabillis** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:14 pm

anyone who'd care to collaborate on a version of "robot uber alles" ?

i never tried lyrics, that would be interesting...

Bad 2006 "RANGERS" stories anyone?

Rangers and u