I've got a vague idea...

[theCryptofishist]

And you'll need land to build on.

And that is the killer, as far as cost, at least in my area. Land costs drive up the cost of the whole shebang, and at least here in the suburban environment, as we are loosing our rural aspect, local govt's are trying to preserve the open spaces and mandating larger lot sizes which of course means a bigger house and more costs associated with it.
bas, I think for something like you are talking about to work, it would have to be in a rural area with lower land costs, and maybe less restrictive zoning requirements, especially if they are interested in turning vacant land into a source of tax revenue. Smaller local govts that are strapped for cash may be open to the idea.

I think that rural areas might be where a lot of the poverty is, and gets ignored because it isn't a short trip for the local television station or some such thing. (Although there is still a lot in urban areas like around Detroit... maybe a "one-size-fits-all" approach won't work?)

Yeah, the last time that we emphacised rural poverty was in the 60s when the face of poverty was Appalachian (and white) and we got the Great Society bills passed. Now the face is urban (and black.) I dont' know how much it has to do with news crews.

[theCryptofishist]

Great that you brought that link here, Steve. Looks like they're wanting to (or maybe already did) build homes in Reno using leftover BM lumber.

John, I know what you're saying. I'm sure we've all known people who you could give $50K to AND a house, and they'd end up with their utilities turned off!

But something still has to be done . . . many times, there are children involved, and I think when people have self-esteem, they WANT to work.
At least that's my hope.

Yes, and what I am leaning towards is more figuring out a coordinated way to help people. There are a lot of ideas and information, but everyone seems to be either talking to themselves, talking themselves out of action, or fighting each other to get what little funding is available to do anything. How can it all be brought together and taken where it is needed?

I recall one theory on why some immigrant groups got ahead when they arrived in the United States and why others fell behind. The theory went that when some of them arrived, whole extended families arrived and gave their money to one member who had an idea of how to make more (or sent a member with funding from the extended family). When that person's business finally made money, they would loan it to the next member, and so on. The groups which didn't do that stayed poor.

They are also supposed to have mini "development banks" where the people who got the loans and built there businesses paid the money back to the group as a whole. I think that's how the "tongs" got started in California, before they became gangs.

[penguin]

http://www.burnerswithoutborders.org/

Let's be very clear that Burners Without Borders is very small in comparison to the largeness of the problems.

You have to start somewhere -- remember the whole acorns/oaks thingie.

Though I still think that finding people to help isn't the problem -- the problem is finding people who will let you help, then finding a place that will let you help, then getting all three in the same place at the same time.

Of the people, for the people and by the people (or however it is exactly written) is part of the problem -- it says PEOPLE, not PERSON -- right now there aren't enough disadvantaged persons to equal a people so they get left out. Seems to me the French, the Russians, etc. learned the hard way when a group of persons became a people -- and I hope we don't have to wait that long.

[Sail Man]

And you'll need land to build on.

And that is the killer, as far as cost, at least in my area.

I guess those videos I've seen on the web of blocks and blocks of Detroit as vacant lots are...misleading? greatly edited by the racists that filmed them?
Well, something anyway.

Many of the larger open spaces within Detroit were at one time industrial, many are designated as brownfields and other lovely hazardous scenarios so the battle here to fill them in has always been mired in the controversy of who gets to pay for the remediation and clean-up. The talk of late around here is what I believe is called "in-fill" development, whereas a developer puts smaller groups of homes on smaller parcels of land. There are indeed many wide swathes of Detroit that are either open or just ruins, like the population fled a war. Not a far-fetched way of looking at things in regards to the "white flight" that followed the riots. http://www.freep.com/article/20090226/N ... 340/?imw=Y Here is something that was in a local paper today referencing some of the ruins. In this case Govt. apathy seems to have a play in allowing this mess to continue. Detroit is full of what were once beautiful homes that are just in ruins. The areas south of Highland Park extending towards old Tiger Stadium contain many former grand, often Victorian homes. It is sad. Crypto, I'm not sure i understand what your connotations are in regards to filming by racists. Can you please enlighten me on that? There are some rich "honkies" that have been in the forefront of attempting to return Detroit to a better more vibrant place, Peter Karamanos of Compuware has built a beautiful new HQ downtown, home to our new HardRock Cafe and Campus Martius Park. Roger Penske has been very visible here as well working to improve the city, David Hall and Dan Gilbert of Rock Financial gave been other boosters. The decay of Detroit didnt happen overnight, nor will it be fixed overnight. We have vibrant areas, but nothing on the scale of Chicago as evidenced on my recent trip there, or even SF, as I remember it from when I was stationed in Fairfield.

Smaller local govts that are strapped for cash may be open to the idea.

Um. And how are we going to fund poverty services in cash-strapped areas? Look if it were easy to make millions of dollars by taking care of the basic needs of the poor, then we'd have millionaires doing just that.

I dont believe that I was addressing the issue of providing social services to people in the middle of BFE Crypto, I was merely suggesting that a larger scale development that could be easier and/or cheaper to develop may be easier to do where the land costs were less expensive. And I would think that local govts would love to have an influx of tax money, which I assume could also go towards funding some of these programs that you may be referring to. I am not an Urban Planner, nor am I an Economist, I just play a Paramedic on TV, after having stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Maybe what could be an option would be something akin to developing an Intentional Community http://www.ic.org/ I have read of communities such as this developing themselves around a small industry, wood-working and/or furniture for exp, or even farming. And while millionaires may certainly be in a better financial position to help out, and many do in ways not often visible, I would guess that many in our current financial times are just trying to keep what they have and are tightening their purse strings.

I often wonder if it is not those that have less 0's behind the 1's in their bank accounts that are more prone to helping those in need, as they better realize what its like to be cash-strapped.

Crypto, I must say your reply to my post came off as being rather upset with my comments. If I mis-understand I am sorry.

[Sail Man]

We could give every poor person a $50,000.00 annual stipend. Then they wouldn't be poor anymore.

JK

Then they'd be richer then me. Does that mean I would get the next round of 50,000$ stimulus checks?

[theCryptofishist]

And that is the killer, as far as cost, at least in my area.

I guess those videos I've seen on the web of blocks and blocks of Detroit as vacant lots are...misleading? greatly edited by the racists that filmed them?
Well, something anyway.

Many of the larger open spaces within Detroit were at one time industrial, many are designated as brownfields and other lovely hazardous scenarios so the battle here to fill them in has always been mired in the controversy of who gets to pay for the remediation and clean-up. The talk of late around here is what I believe is called "in-fill" development, whereas a developer puts smaller groups of homes on smaller parcels of land. There are indeed many wide swathes of Detroit that are either open or just ruins, like the population fled a war. Not a far-fetched way of looking at things in regards to the "white flight" that followed the riots. http://www.freep.com/article/20090226/N ... 340/?imw=Y Here is something that was in a local paper today referencing some of the ruins. In this case Govt. apathy seems to have a play in allowing this mess to continue. Detroit is full of what were once beautiful homes that are just in ruins. The areas south of Highland Park extending towards old Tiger Stadium contain many former grand, often Victorian homes. It is sad. Crypto, I'm not sure i understand what your connotations are in regards to filming by racists. Can you please enlighten me on that?.

I am referring to something I stumbled across on the net recently, someone claiming they aren't racist but look at how horrible the darkies are, stupid and they don't even do the upkeep on their houses, let's drive through their neighborhoods and pathologise them. It was really vile. It is also just about the only thing I've seen from Detroit, ever. (There was also some lovely shots of the old train station that I found the same evening.) I hate to run smack into my ignorance in that way. Any irritation you may have detected in my post have to do with my own lameness for not knowing more and the anger I have to anyone who uses such selective data to come to such an important conclusion.

Smaller local govts that are strapped for cash may be open to the idea.

Um. And how are we going to fund poverty services in cash-strapped areas? Look if it were easy to make millions of dollars by taking care of the basic needs of the poor, then we'd have millionaires doing just that.

I dont believe that I was addressing the issue of providing social services to people in the middle of BFE Crypto, I was merely suggesting that a larger scale development that could be easier and/or cheaper to develop may be easier to do where the land costs were less expensive. And I would think that local govts would love to have an influx of tax money, which I assume could also go towards funding some of these programs that you may be referring to. I am not an Urban Planner, nor am I an Economist, I just play a Paramedic on TV, after having stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night. :wink: Maybe what could be an option would be something akin to developing an Intentional Community http://www.ic.org/ I have read of communities such as this developing themselves around a small industry, wood-working and/or furniture for exp, or even farming. And while millionaires may certainly be in a better financial position to help out, and many do in ways not often visible, I would guess that many in our current financial times are just trying to keep what they have and are tightening their purse strings.

I often wonder if it is not those that have less 0's behind the 1's in their bank accounts that are more prone to helping those in need, as they better realize what its like to be cash-strapped.

Crypto, I must say your reply to my post came off as being rather upset with my comments. If I mis-understand I am sorry.

I am so sorry. ONe of my private rants got touched off. The one in responce to:

Government should be run like a business.

To which the answer is "The stuff government does is hard and the stuff business does is often much easier--if providing...(and so on)
Sailman you've been a consistantly resonable voice on this board, and I have no quarrell with you. I am sorry I behaved in such a way as to make you feel dissed.

[Sail Man]

I grew up in lily white northern Michigan, and had in my senior year as a good friend, a rather cool brother, who had what I've always referred to as a good tan Before the wonders of the internet, I had pen-pals that ranged from Japan to Africa, S. America and Europe. Wanderings in life took me through the military where I experienced peeps of many ethnic backgrounds, origins etc. When I ended up in the D, one of my co-workers was a brother who I hung out with quite often and lived in a nicer part of Detroit. Nice home, good lawn (better them mine LOL), an all around decent dude. A nice middle class family. This was before I got into EMS. It was then I got more exposure to the exclusive "enclaves" of Detroit, as well as the "ghetto's". Ain't nothing like taking a patient home from the ER at 3am and seeing eyes peering out at you from the abandoned home across the street. I have seen a wide range of socio-economic status's and it really pisses me off. We are a wealthy nation, yet people are living in decrepit homes that cost less then the cars many people drive. I have treated homeless people. I have treated CEO's of large companies. Inherently, these people are no different from the other, with the exception of the "thread" they have pursued or been given in life. College should be accessible and affordable to everybody. Healthcare as well. Decent housing should not be a luxury. People trapped on rooftops in New Orleans holding signs that say "help me, I am an American" should not be in that position, and have to suffer squalor while waiting for our "govt" to get off its ass and help them.

Here in the D we have a program called Focus: Hope http://www.focushope.edu/

It pretty much follows the Tenet that you can help people better if you teach them to fish, instead of just giving them a fish sandwich (ok, I'm hungry, so that one slipped in LOL)

Crypto, I didn't really feel dissed, but more so I felt my comments or suggestions were taken differently then I had meant them. I would love to help more then I already do, but financially I live payday to payday. That is why I always offer grunt work to those in my little neck of the world. I can swing a hammer better that I can write a check.

And I do very much appreciate your comments at the end of your post. I can be a smart ass but I also side very strongly with the "little" people in life, those that maybe cant speak for themselves for whatever reason. I'd rather hang with a red-necked hillbilly anyday as opposed to some blue blood aristocrat.

Hers a pic of a neighborhood like my bud Lloyd lived in:


Here is a pic of what many people see and or envision when they think of the D:

Another group in Detroit, the Motor City Blight Busters has worked to rid the D of abandoned homes, revitalizing what they can. Recently, they teamed up with local Burners, and also David Best, to build a Temple in the Old Redford part of Detroit:
http://www.detroitdreamproject.org/

Just an example of what Burners can do when they put they're hammer to it

[theCryptofishist]

That first pic was like a lot of St. Paul neighborhoods.

[SilverOrange]

Hey BAS,
Here's a couple of links for alternative housing using shipping containers as the shell for dwellings.
http://www.affordableportablehousing.co ... ehome.html
http://www.affordableportablehousing.co ... plans.html