The Failures leading to 911

[Jordan 10-E]

Don't confuse the War on Terror with the Invasion of Iraq. Two different things. Remember too, Nato and the French are with us in Afghanistan. Remember too that there has not been a 10 year period in the past thousand years that the West/European/Christian/Crusaders have not engaged in military operations against muslims.. They do have a bone to pick. Being weak they resort to Terror, as we likely would were the situation reversed.

For over a thousand years, the western world was not the dominating force in the world. The Middle East was, under Muslim rule. We often refer to it as the Dark Ages. We have to give a lot of credit to the Muslims for the advancement of science, philosophy architecture, etc... but surely history does not bare out the concept that they have been a peace loving people. Did you know that Europe easliy could have become Muslim ruled. Have you ever heard of the Moors? History is full of military incursions by Muslims. There is plenty of blame to go around.

Bush being a crusader is denying the whole premise of the crusaders on the other side. If any group is acting under a religiously inspired crusade it is them.

....

I know Iraq was not behind 9/11, but to say this has nothing to do with what happened that day is short sighted.

So I guess I am hopeless and a lost cause. When I posted here I was sure that I would be called this or that, but honestly, I don't apologize for my views. I think I am very level headed and try to look at both sides of a picture. I am very well aware of the pros and cons of what I am saying. I wish as much as any other person that there were no war. At times in my life I could even be called a pacifist. I still am a pacifist, but not at the detriment of my life.

Places like Burning Man show me that there are ways to interact and get along with different people, but it requires a true dialouge. There are those out there that could care less about what Burning Man means. They don't want to know about freedom or art or sharing of ideas. If they were in power you can be assured there would be no Burning Man.

[DVD Burner]

Arrrgggg! I can't take it anymore.

I must apologise to Joel for this:

Jordan 10-E.

You are a lost cause. I would rather read half logic from Joel. at least he tries.

It came out wrong. That's not what I meant. what I meant was I'd rather read Joel's half logic than to read Jordan 10-E's loss of logic,lack of common sense, Hypnotic state.

But as it is I will, as always, read everything as it gets posted.

Most of all I want to apologize to Joel publicly. he's a good guy. even when we disagree.

(yeah I know Joel I did'nt have to do that but I had to do that.)

[Guest]

For over a thousand years, the western world was not the dominating force in the world. The Middle East was, under Muslim rule.

That would be approx, 630 to 1630.. The Middle East began to stagnate much before then.. was ripe pickings for the Ottomans. By 1400 the Ottomans were dominant in the Middle East and the glory days of the Caliphate were long over.. In 1258, 100,000 Arab Skulls stacked outside of Bagdad by Bush the First.. oops mistake there,, Hulegu.. Ghengis Khan's Grandson, that was pretty much it, the Middle East slid into stagnation ripe for picking by the West.

[DVD Burner]

That was pretty funny BRR.

Jordan 10-E,

I'm sure you are healthy enough to volunteer for the war in Iraq. America could use a few more soldiers like you over there.

[Alpha]

Jordon seems adept at the same shell game as his president. Let's go back centuries if we must: In what ways are the Baathists responsible for the terrorism attacks on 9/11?

Side bar: your motivation for attacking Iraq is, "but what if they HAD possessed WMDs" ?? You must be joking. Hans Blix, the closest thing we have to an independent voice on this topic, has stated that it appears Iraq destroyed their weapons precisely as they had been instructed to do in the early 1990s. The invasion of Iraq is wholly unjustified and should be prosecuted in the Hague.

[DVD Burner]

IMO,

what may help here are cites.

Alpha, A II Z or Rob, have any good suggestions?

Just quick ones....Cliff notes if you will.

please?

I'll do what I can to find some but I'm afraid it may take me awhile.

[Jordan 10-E]

None of you have offered any solutions to anything. It is very easy to point and blame, another to come up with a real plan. Tell me, what is the answer (Iraq, terrorism, etc.) I honestly would like to know, because so far you don't seem to be offering anything that can help deal with the problems we and the rest of the world face.

[Jordan 10-E]

Oh yeah, btw, sarcasm doesn't bother me. Be as sarcastic as you want. Hell, I am the master of it. Belittling doesn't provide any solutions. Let's hear your grand plans on how the world should be run.

[DVD Burner]

None of you have offered any solutions to anything. It is very easy to point and blame, another to come up with a real plan. Tell me, what is the answer (Iraq, terrorism, etc.) I honestly would like to know, because so far you don't seem to be offering anything that can help deal with the problems we and the rest of the world face.

[Jordan 10-E]

and then what?

[Guest]

Jordan here is a reasonable solution. Pull all American forces out of the middle east, apologize for invading an independent country. Keep the worlds greatest military here to protect US. Stop buying their oil, buy it from our christian brothers the Russians and liberate Tibet on our way out.

Fortress America. Maybe in another thousand years they will forgive us. The alternative is body bag after body bag.

[DVD Burner]

Jordan here is a reasonable solution. Pull all American forces out of the middle east, apologize for invading an independent country. Keep the worlds greatest military here to protect US. Stop buying their oil, buy it from our christian brothers the Russians and liberate Tibet on our way out.

Fortress America. Maybe in another thousand years they will forgive us. The alternative is body bag after body bag.

After we
Then we can

Pull all American forces out of the middle east, apologize for invading an independent country. Keep the worlds greatest military here to protect US. Stop buying their oil, buy it from our christian brothers the Russians and liberate Tibet on our way out.

Fortress America. Maybe in another thousand years they will forgive us. The alternative is body bag after body bag.

That will solve everything. Guaranteed!

[DVD Burner]

Just takes a little common sense.

[Jordan 10-E]

Well I am glad you guys have it figured out.

As for me... I am stepping out for now and letting the words flow on.

I hope to see you on the playa where at least for a little while we can get away from all the bs that is swirling around us.

Peace

[DVD Burner]

I guess Jordan 10-E does'nt realize how serious the situation is with Bush.






Have fun dood.

[Alpha]

Jordan here is a reasonable solution. Pull all American forces out of the middle east, apologize for invading an independent country. Keep the worlds greatest military here to protect US.

Ric and I agree! Actually the best solution would have been to never have invaded Iraq to begin with -- we went into Afghanistan without much international protest, because we had moral authority. We have no moral authority in Iraq.

But since we're there, I think the best solution for us and for Iraqis is to have the UN kick our asses out of there. "Okay America you fucked it up and now we're going to clean up the mess. But you're going to pay for it." In my opinion that has the best chance of renewing Iraqi faith in the reconstruction process.

I'd rather pay to have (non-US) UN forces stabilize Iraq, than to pay to bury more Americans and more Iraqis.

[Jordan 10-E]

Actually I'd just can't deal with the overwhelming logic and simplistic "solutions" being put put forth. How can a person defend themselves against such incredible insight? The proof for your "solutions" has been so clear and insightful. After your brief words, the error of my ways has been revealed to me.

Has anyone ever suggested you run for president? Under you leadership the world could be holding hands and singing together in no time. The terrorists would all lay down their weapons and turn them into plowshares. Bush would be rotting in jail and Sadaam and Osama would heros of the NEW AGE of MAN and Kerry would be be their lapdog.

And remember how we got here...We just pulled out of Iraq and the Middle East and bought our oil from Russia. And how did we see they way to this new arrangement? From our friends. Thank you terrorists for showing us the way forward. Thank you Sadaam for all that you have done to make a better life for all and for showing us what a little VX gas will do. Thank you radicals for exploding your way into our hearts and minds. All the sacrifices you have made in the hope for a better world (and all the beautiful gardens and concubines that will surround you in the next life for the great works you have done). Thank you for showing that instead of trying to get along and work together toward a usless goal, we can just take out a bunch of people out by any means necessary to enforce our point. Thank you for enlightening us as to the way politics and religion and societal structure should be done in this new age of the world. We can see now that freedom and physical and mental security were just pipe dreams (no pun intended) and foolish illusions of our diseased minds. Thank you for seeking to put us under your despotic and cruel rule to guide us into submission, for we cannot do it without you. Where would we all be without your great contributions to this planet and all the people living upon it? Thank you for showing us the error of our ways. Thank you for show us that in order to create, you must destroy. Oh and most of all, thank you for the death you have brought upon all those that have disagreed with you or who were clueless heathen gentile scum that deserved to be anihilated by your god inspired divine retribution.

God does work in mysterious ways. Praise the TRUTH everybody!

[Guest]

Actually I'd just can't deal with the overwhelming logic and simplistic "solutions" being put put forth. How can a person defend themselves against such incredible insight? The proof for your "solutions" has been so clear and insightful. After your brief words, the error of my ways has been revealed to me.

[Got a better Idea? Let's hear it?]

Has anyone ever suggested you run for pres
dent? Under you leadership the world could be holding hands and singing together in no time. The terrorists would all lay down their weapons and turn them into plowshares. Bush would be rotting in jail and Sadaam and Osama would heros of the NEW AGE of MAN and Kerry would be be their lapdog.

[You did not read the previous posts. The terrorists are a problem, they need to be killed, when they come to America. The ones guilty of 911 are being hunted with the worlds approval. Your response indicates A. a love of Rush Limbaughs idiotic thinking. B. severe lackathinking C. complete insanity. D. Ditto. What I actually said was, protect America, you nitwit.]

And remember how we got here...We just pulled out of Iraq and the Middle East and bought our oil from Russia.

And how did we see they way to this new arrangement? From our friends. Thank you terrorists for showing us the way forward. Thank you Sadaam for all that you have done to make a better life for all and for showing us what a little VX gas will do.

[Curiously the nerve gas attacks on the Kurds and the Iranians were only done when Iraq was our friend, the nerve gas attacks on the Iranians were done with US military observers on the ground, assisting the Iraqis, curious]


Thank you radicals for exploding your way into our hearts and minds. All the sacrifices you have made in the hope for a better world (and all the beautiful gardens and concubines that will surround you in the next life for the great works you have done). Thank you for showing that instead of trying to get along and work together toward a usless goal, we can just take out a bunch of people out by any means necessary to enforce our point. Thank you for enlightening us as to the way politics and religion and societal structure should be done in this new age of the world. We can see now that freedom and physical and mental security were just pipe dreams (no pun intended) and foolish illusions of our diseased minds. Thank you for seeking to put us under your despotic and cruel rule to guide us into submission, for we cannot do it without you. Where would we all be without your great contributions to this planet and all the people living upon it? Thank you for showing us the error of our ways. Thank you for show us that in order to create, you must destroy. Oh and most of all, thank you for the death you have brought upon all those that have disagreed with you or who were clueless heathen gentile scum that deserved to be anihilated by your god inspired divine retribution.



[The Middle East (and the Balkans) are a Tarpit, we need to get the hell out. Just because there are alligators in their swamp we need to climb in with them?

You know when you have lived in Dubai too long when...

You enjoy camping in the sand

You're not surprised to see a goat in the passenger seat

You expect the confirmation of your flight reservation to be 'Inshahallah"

You don't expect to eat dinner until 10.30pm

You need a sweater when it's 80 deg F

You expect everyone to own a GSM

Your idea of housework is leaving a list for the houseboy or the maid.

You think that skis were developed for sand use

You think speed limits are only advisory

You think black is appropriate day time wear

You expect to go to jail when a local hits your car from behind at a stop sign

You wear a jacket inside and take it off outside

You think a shopping mall is a covered souq

You don't question how a photoID card works for women wearing abayas

You think carpets belong on the wall

You think the further you edge into the intersection, the faster the light will turn green

You believe that the definition of a nanosecond is the interval between the time the light turns green and the guy behind you starts blowing his horn

You give directions by landmarks instead of by road names

You think a desert storm is a war

You can receive every television station except the local one

You think only men should hold hands in public

You make left turns from the far right lane

You make right turns from the far left lane

You make U-turns from any lane you want

You know a traffic jam on this side of the road means an accident on the other side

You know that your internet charges per month are more than buying a new computer

You don't expect the traffic police to stop you for a traffic offence

You know that the color of your skin is your entry criteria

You think driving with your foot on the dashboard is cool

You find everybody thinks they can speak Englis'

You think "Bebsi" is better than Coke

You shake your empty cappuccino cup when you've had enough

You think the hazard lights are fog-warning lights

You still buy Dubai Duty Free lottery tickets when it would have been cheaper to pay the down payment for the BMW instead

You think every single lady on the street is a prostitute.

You think every woman an abbaya is a Moroccan prostitute.

You can speak Hindi and Tagalog

You look forward to rainy days...


You know when you have lived in Dubai too long when...

You enjoy camping in the sand

You're not surprised to see a goat in the passenger seat

You expect the confirmation of your flight reservation to be 'Inshahallah"

You don't expect to eat dinner until 10.30pm

You need a sweater when it's 80 deg F

You expect everyone to own a GSM

Your idea of housework is leaving a list for the houseboy or the maid.

You think that skis were developed for sand use

You think speed limits are only advisory

You think black is appropriate day time wear

You expect to go to jail when a local hits your car from behind at a stop sign

You wear a jacket inside and take it off outside

You think a shopping mall is a covered souq

You don't question how a photoID card works for women wearing abayas

You think carpets belong on the wall

You think the further you edge into the intersection, the faster the light will turn green

You believe that the definition of a nanosecond is the interval between the time the light turns green and the guy behind you starts blowing his horn

You give directions by landmarks instead of by road names

You think a desert storm is a war

You can receive every television station except the local one

You think only men should hold hands in public

You make left turns from the far right lane

You make right turns from the far left lane

You make U-turns from any lane you want

You know a traffic jam on this side of the road means an accident on the other side

You know that your internet charges per month are more than buying a new computer

You don't expect the traffic police to stop you for a traffic offence

You know that the color of your skin is your entry criteria

You think driving with your foot on the dashboard is cool

You find everybody thinks they can speak Englis'

You think "Bebsi" is better than Coke

You shake your empty cappuccino cup when you've had enough

You think the hazard lights are fog-warning lights

You still buy Dubai Duty Free lottery tickets when it would have been cheaper to pay the down payment for the BMW instead

You think every single lady on the street is a prostitute.

You think every woman an abbaya is a Moroccan prostitute.

You can speak Hindi and Tagalog

You look forward to rainy days...




God does work in mysterious ways. Praise the TRUTH everybody!

[Simply Joel]

God does work in mysterious ways. Praise the TRUTH everybody!

I'm dyslexic! Dog does work in mysterious ways?

[Alpha]

Talk about simplistic.. I don't think anyone here said Osama bin Laden should be a hero. What was said is that the invasion of Iraq never had a connection ot 9/11 (the topic of this thread) and that some of us believe it to be a gross abuse of executive power by an arrogant, spiteful little man.

Don't believe for one minute that we invaded Iraq to save those people from Saddam Hussein. If that were the case then we would have also invaded Uganda, Burundi, the Congo, Ethiopia, Cambodia, Uzbekistan, North Korea, Indonesia... the list goes on and on.

I think BRR's suggestion of buying oil from the Russians is also fraught with problems, whether they are Christian or not. (In fact his statement makes me wonder how he feels about Muslims) However when you look at oil you do see a connection both to Iraq and 9/11 (the Saudis dominate the world oil market, and we have a sad history of looking the other way from their transgressions in the international community so long as our oil prices are stable). Since we currently have no option but to rely on the importation of oil to meet our power needs, it's rather important that the United States be viewed by the international community as a team player rather than a rogue state. I submit to you that this administration's actions have moved the perception toward the latter.

[Rob the Wop]

But since we're there, I think the best solution for us and for Iraqis is to have the UN kick our asses out of there. "Okay America you fucked it up and now we're going to clean up the mess. But you're going to pay for it." In my opinion that has the best chance of renewing Iraqi faith in the reconstruction process.

I'd rather pay to have (non-US) UN forces stabilize Iraq, than to pay to bury more Americans and more Iraqis.

Uhm... you're kidding, right?

The UN can solve all ills? If we have a beaurocratic committee of self-serving nations try and solve this mess, the various militant factions will have a fucking field day in Iraq. Whose military will be there to prevent massive bloodshed? The French? Yah fucking right...

We're not doing all that hot, but if we pull out now and leave it to the UN- the Iraqi people will witness wholesale slaughter from internal civil war.

[Rob the Wop]

Since we currently have no option but to rely on the importation of oil to meet our power needs,

We have no inexpensive option. We have oil reserves in the US. If we jacked up the price of oil to reflect the European's prices, we would see changes happen to wean away our dependancy. It'd be a rough ride, but better in the long run in my opinion.

[Guest]

First let me respond to "Our Christian Brothers the Russians" A certain tongue in cheek ness there.. My regard for Muslims is about the same as for anyone who builds their life around mythology.

Now Jordan, I figure you will peg me for a liberal peacenik.. So here is touch of data. I am a Vietnam Vet. I have a tattoo of ocean loving mammal balancing a ball on his nose on my arm. I been there, tore up the T shirt, wrapped it around a few buddies, and came home..

I think it is a crack up and reveals the true hypocrisy of the right wing in this country that they support a draft dodging President and attack a war hero running for President. Bush drank beer, Kerry comforted dying men. You got a problem with Kerry? Think about that.

Did you ever consider that watching men your buddies/ die in combat (and I can add, combat deaths do not look like the movies, don't sound like them either, I live where and how I live because it alleviates the sounds and sights that come back to me at 3:00 in the morning unless you are a combat vet, you haven't a clue) might cool your enthusiasm for ill considered military adventures?

No one should commit troops to combat who has not been there himself,, tis my humble belief.

[Alpha]

Uhm... you're kidding, right?

Well no... though I admit UN forces without the United States would be, um, weakened at best. But I think the biggest problem we have in Iraq is motivation, not military. People all over the world have guns but they don't often turn them against their own country's infrastructure. The problem is that Iraqis see our illegal occupation for what it is, and they are rallying against it. I don't believe for one minute that these are (exclusively) Baathist loyalists who are attacking U.S. and other foreign forces. Rather, the great uniter GW Bush has found a way to get all factions of Iraqis fighting a common enemy: us. The only solution for peace is to get the U.S. out of Iraq. The only way to prevent Iraq from falling into chaos is to have some other military force there to maintain security. Since I'm a big proponent of multinationalism, I suggested the UN.

[Alpha]

We have no inexpensive option. We have oil reserves in the US. If we jacked up the price of oil to reflect the European's prices, we would see changes happen to wean away our dependancy. It'd be a rough ride, but better in the long run in my opinion.

I agree that U.S. oil prices should be more in line with European prices, but how long would our oil reserves last us, even if we paid $4 for a gallon of gas? The way I figured it from what I'd heard on the news, we have something like 10 weeks' supply in reserve, at our current rate of usage. Even if we could cut usage in half that would be less than six months before we're back out there buying oil on the international market.

[blyslv]

[quote="Black Rock Ric"]First let me respond to "Our Christian Brothers the Russians" A certain tongue in cheek ness there.. My regard for Muslims is about the same as for anyone who builds their life around mythology.

[quote]

That would exclude the myth of the regged indivdualist, the cowboy and The Great American West?

[Guest]

No

[stuart]

The way I figured it from what I'd heard on the news, we have something like 10 weeks' supply in reserve, at our current rate of usage. Even if we could cut usage in half that would be less than six months before we're back out there buying oil on the international market.

you are confusing the US strategic reserves, a bunch of oil sitting underground in tanks primarily in oklahoma, with our natural petroleum reserves, which are pretty vast. A majority of our oil does not come from the middle east in acutality. This does not demean the strategic importance of that region as it has the largest natural reserves in the world.


and lets not worry about Iraq any more. Negroponte is heading over there. He knows how to quell (set up camps for rape and torture and organize death squads made up of rightist locals trained by the CIA) an insurgency.

[Guest]

salt domes in Louisiana

[Alpha]

you are confusing the US strategic reserves, a bunch of oil sitting underground in tanks primarily in oklahoma, with our natural petroleum reserves, which are pretty vast.

Yep, I was confusing the bird in the hand for the two in the bush. Still, where do our natural reserves exist? If our natural resources are so vast, why should we even have to debate about drilling in ANWAR for enough oil to last a lousy 6 months/3 years/whatever ?