Screw the Banks and Investment Firms

Post by **Elderberry** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:47 am

ygmir wrote:
ihlvr wrote:Well, this is my simple take on what has happened.
I'm 36, a carpenter by trade, and have two kid's. My oldest came along when I was 19, and I dropped out of college, been working ever since.
In the good years, I made a good living, alway's saved, in the bad years there was alway's money to float till thing's picked up. This time it is very different.
I bought a small house I could afford, paid my bill's, had good credit, played by the rules......and everything fell apart.
A friend in CA bought at the top of the market, is underwater, and got half his loan paid off under the obama plan. He has some horrible ARM, it's an old house in poor condition, and the Gov paid for half of it.........so now he is adding a new master bedroom, and a major remodel on the rest of the house.
I'm a single parent, and while we struggle, we are ok for now......he is adding on because of the free gov't money. It's just wrong.
Obama......change.....that's for sure
that's been one of my biggest issues with the messiah's plan...........bailout, whatever you call it:

if you work and save, drive old cars, buy only what you can afford, you get nothing, zero, nada.
And, probably taxed extra to boot........

But,
if you spend to much, don't read the contract for your mortgage, live off your credit cards,....... you get free money from the gov..........

How the hell is that ok? How do the "social architects" of the present administration justify that?
Re-distributing the wealth allright........right into the hands of those who can't handle finances anyway. Whether it be bankers, wall street, or people who feel entitled to more "stuff" and leisure/luxury than they can afford.......

Pisses me off.......

I don't think you should be blaming this on Obama--this was the mind-set of almost ALL of America for a long while now--and Obama inherited the disasterous results of that sort of thinking with all the rest of the mess.

This is less of an endorsement of Obama's policies as it is a commentary on the mind-set of the entire country.

JK

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:57 am

Cowboy, that is an absolutely GREAT essay by Hedges. It begs a few questions. Is the momentum too great to stop? Are WE too soft to take action? The ballot box is ignored. What is the next step?
I have to go out and replace the pan gasket on my tractor. I think that i'm going to need it.
The corporatocracy has a stranglehold on food production. When GOV wants to pull levers, you can bet that food will be well controlled.
Dan

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:08 am

JK:
I'm not blaming the mess on Obama..........

I'm voicing my resentment to rewarding poor planning, decision making, thievery, stupidity, deceit, whatever...........

But, he is rewarding those things with these "handouts"......
from individuals to huge corporations......he's bailing them out with our money........
but,
those of us who try to do the right thing, get nothing.......

how is comrade Obama going to explain that? If anyone asks, that is......

I totally agree it is a function of national mindset.......greed, sloth, subterfuge, chicanery, deceit.
They've all been almost put on a pedestal as ways to get ahead.....
now, it bites those who indulged in the ass, and, they run screaming for a bailout.........and get it..........

I have some admiration for some of what the messiah has done, but, this is not in that column...........

Post by **Elderberry** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:20 am

ygmir wrote:JK:
I'm not blaming the mess on Obama..........

I'm voicing my resentment to rewarding poor planning, decision making, thievery, stupidity, deceit, whatever...........

But, he is rewarding those things with these "handouts"......
from individuals to huge corporations......he's bailing them out with our money........
but,
those of us who try to do the right thing, get nothing.......

how is comrade Obama going to explain that? If anyone asks, that is......

I totally agree it is a function of national mindset.......greed, sloth, subterfuge, chicanery, deceit.
They've all been almost put on a pedestal as ways to get ahead.....
now, it bites those who indulged in the ass, and, they run screaming for a bailout.........and get it..........

I have some admiration for some of what the messiah has done, but, this is not in that column...........

Everyone is angry about this--including Obama, and rightly so. The only comparable analogy I can think of is raising kids--when they do something wrong, you don't disown them, you help them and hopefully try to teach them the error or their ways so that they don't continue to make the same mistakes again.

I don't think the 'bail-outs' are a matter of policy as much as a matter of necessity.

JK

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:36 am

jkisha wrote:
ygmir wrote:JK:
I'm not blaming the mess on Obama..........

I'm voicing my resentment to rewarding poor planning, decision making, thievery, stupidity, deceit, whatever...........

But, he is rewarding those things with these "handouts"......
from individuals to huge corporations......he's bailing them out with our money........
but,
those of us who try to do the right thing, get nothing.......

how is comrade Obama going to explain that? If anyone asks, that is......

I totally agree it is a function of national mindset.......greed, sloth, subterfuge, chicanery, deceit.
They've all been almost put on a pedestal as ways to get ahead.....
now, it bites those who indulged in the ass, and, they run screaming for a bailout.........and get it..........

I have some admiration for some of what the messiah has done, but, this is not in that column...........
Everyone is angry about this--including Obama, and rightly so. The only comparable analogy I can think of is raising kids--when they do something wrong, you don't disown them, you help them and hopefully try to teach them the error or their ways so that they don't continue to make the same mistakes again.

I don't think the 'bail-outs' are a matter of policy as much as a matter of necessity.

JK

egad......Obama as a parent figure?......yikes........(referencing him as government/president)

yeah, gov. teaching us the error of OUR ways....."they" have always been so good at running them for us anyway........and, saving us from ourselves...........(our loving comrades).........

I disagree that the bailouts are necessary.
you need ashes for the phoenix to rise from........
not festering, band aid covered wounds, with makeup and candy........

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:43 am

YGMIR, don't know if you follow the guy in Vegas. He always has something funny;
http://economicrot.blogspot.com/2009/03 ... march.html
I believe that obama came in something like Bernanke. Nobody told him how bad things were.

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:59 am

Obama's take on the recent G-20 was that spending stimulus was first and foremost rather than regulation of the financial machinery that caused the collapse, that was in opposition to most of the G-20 members, especially Germany.
Regulation has to come first, or the money just gets pissed down an endless shit hole, like is happening now. Look at how AIG just told Treasury to get fucked regarding it's 190 million in bonus rewards. Geithner is impotent.

I hate hearing the corporate mantra about greedy stupid little home mortgage borrowers being the cause, or main cause of the housing collapse (see Comedy Central, John Stewart on that one) . Banks wrote the loans and filled in the unverified income statements. It is THEY who are most responsible for writing bad loans.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:10 pm

cowboyangel wrote:Obama's take on the recent G-20 was that spending stimulus was first and foremost rather than regulation of the financial machinery that caused the collapse, that was in opposition to most of the G-20 members, especially Germany.
Regulation has to come first, or the money just gets pissed down an endless shit hole, like is happening now. Look at how AIG just told Treasury to get fucked regarding it's 190 million in bonus rewards. Geithner is impotent.

I hate hearing the corporate mantra about greedy stupid little home mortgage borrowers being the cause, or main cause of the housing collapse (see Comedy Central, John Stewart on that one) . Banks wrote the loans and filled in the unverified income statements. It is THEY who are most responsible for writing bad loans.

I see that as not a very clear cut problem.......
I agree that banks put out misleading info..............but, also, people should be able to figure out how much they make, and, how much they can spend............
If the bank was writing unverified income statements, who was making them? Who was overstating their income?
Could that be lying and greed coming into play?

I'd say there's plenty of mess to spread around........and blame, therein........

Box Burner · Post by **Box Burner** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:38 pm

Oh yes there is blame to go around. But remember, money lenders and real estate agents are salesmen first and foremost. And they are more than willing to sell you a dead cat. I have been through financing a house more than once. They can all show you on paper how you will be able to afford the house. But I have never heard one add in the allowences for things like food on the table, or gasoline to drive back and forth from work, or just a little cash flow to cover incidental things that life throws at you once in a while. did you ever hear a real estate agent advise someone that he would want to be able to save a little money to be able to take a vacation once a year? No of course not. Because the fatter the sale the fatter the profit. That is the bottom line.

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:39 pm

can't sit still wrote:Cowboy, that is an absolutely GREAT essay by Hedges. It begs a few questions. Is the momentum too great to stop? Are WE too soft to take action? The ballot box is ignored. What is the next step?
I have to go out and replace the pan gasket on my tractor. I think that i'm going to need it.
The corporatocracy has a stranglehold on food production. When GOV wants to pull levers, you can bet that food will be well controlled.
Dan

ya, I think it is Dan. There's way too much on the table and more of the stimulus is going to the industry that caused the meltdown instead of to small businesses, small banks and manufacturing, or what's left of it , in the US.

Tomorrow night, I'm going to a City Council meeting on dealing with the loss of revenue and businesses here. Then I'm going to a community forum on our legal rights regarding foreclosure, bankruptcy etc. These are some of the things people in my county are doing to address the problems. It will be interesting to see how many come and what is being offered.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:48 pm

Box Burner wrote:Oh yes there is blame to go around. But remember, money lenders and real estate agents are salesmen first and foremost. And they are more than willing to sell you a dead cat. I have been through financing a house more than once. They can all show you on paper how you will be able to afford the house. But I have never heard one add in the allowences for things like food on the table, or gasoline to drive back and forth from work, or just a little cash flow to cover incidental things that life throws at you once in a while. did you ever hear a real estate agent advise someone that he would want to be able to save a little money to be able to take a vacation once a year? No of course not. Because the fatter the sale the fatter the profit. That is the bottom line.

I very much agree.
I would add, though, that people should be able to add for themselves, as well..........and, think for themselves as to food, fuel, vacations.........and, if they can do it.

The whole situation bothers me.
One that people would be dishonest about loans, etc.......
Two, that people would have so little thought, care, or comprehension of their own incomes that they can't figure out if they make 2K per month, they can't afford a 1.9K payment and still eat..........

Just really sad........and disappointing in humanity........

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:17 pm

the system itself gave rise to this hole for careless qualifications with Penny Pritzker's sub-prime lending strategies. Crappy mortgages were bundled up into securities and sold to other greedy banks and financial firms. As long as the bubble was expanding nobody worried. There were many shrewd observers of this looming catastrophe (Webster Tarpley, Michael Hudson, Catherine Austin Fitts, to name a few) but they were not given attention by the power structures that favored the astonishing wealth creation. Penny Pritzker, by the way, was Obama's financial adviser during his presidential campaign. It ain't the fault of the borrowers as much as it was the fault of the greedy bastards that made the risky loans. Please folks, assign blame where it is due.

Box Burner · Post by **Box Burner** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:27 pm

ygmir wrote:
I very much agree.
I would add, though, that people should be able to add for themselves, as well..........and, think for themselves as to food, fuel, vacations.........and, if they can do it.

The whole situation bothers me.
One that people would be dishonest about loans, etc.......
Two, that people would have so little thought, care, or comprehension of their own incomes that they can't figure out if they make 2K per month, they can't afford a 1.9K payment and still eat..........

Just really sad........and disappointing in humanity........

And just what do you think those people were taught in all those government run schools they attended as kids? You don't suppose that our wise and benevolent Corporate backed government wants it's slaves.... oh excuse me I was still thinking about my post about Loncoln. I meant citizens. ... You do know that our wise and benevolent government wants it's citizens to be intelligent and able to think for themselves don't you?

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:51 pm

It is a tricky problem to find the particular calibration in timing that would be appropriate to stem the acceleration in risk premiums created by falling incomes without prematurely aborting the decline in the inflation-generated risk premiums.

-Alan Greenspan

Sounds like he knew what he was doing.

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:45 pm

Don't know if you've seen this one;
http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=37814
This was reported by Turkish media. Evidently, no one in the west wants to see the disappearance of interest.
"The Vatican says Islamic finance system may help Western banks in crisis as alternative to capitalism."

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 7:35 pm

Then I'm going to a community forum on our legal rights regarding foreclosure, bankruptcy etc.

One of the more interesting tactics I've heard to forestall foreclosures is to demand that the bank show proof that they in fact are in possession of the actual mortgage/title (or whatever they call it) of the property being acted upon.

Seems a good number of them are unable to produce the necessary paperwork because so many of them are spread to the four winds.

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 7:38 pm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/fina ... asing.html
The IMF has a plan for all of us. They hope / plan to; "printing billions of dollars worth of a global "super-currency"
What are the chances that they will send it to the starving in Asia and Africa?
What are the chances that they will hurry along the collapse of fiat money?

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 7:43 pm

That was a weird report. The Vatican Bank is now run by Opus Dei (Robert Hutchinson) and Opus Dei is decidedly anti-Islamic, so is this report some kind of messaging? It doesn't fit. Vatican Banking under Opus, financed Salvadoran death squads, Croatian militias, and various CIA aligned strategies. The system they refer to seems to be about profit sharing rather than share holding or interest gains. It's weird anyway, but so is Ratzinger and his Opus Dei bank.

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:16 pm

"In the world at large, the difference in salary levels is shocking. At the top in Japan, the average executive earns only 3 times as much as the average salaryman. In Britain, top executives earn more than 10 times as much as their Japanese counterparts - or 39 times the average guy on the shop floor. And in America, the poor working stiff supports an executive who earns more than 300 times more than he does.

Is the American worth 10 times as much as his British confrere? Is he worth 100 times his Japanese competition? Is his business run better than either of theirs?"

http://optionarmageddon.ml-implode.com/ ... -zimbabwe/

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:59 pm

Just got back from the San Rafael City Council meeting. Up for passage was what they called a "Recession Action Plan" The plan outlines a budget deficit of about 3 million bucks. Partway towards closing that, the city manager is recommending furloughs, that will save about $400,000 and various cost cutting measures like hiring freezes, early retirements, etc. We've had 3 or 4 big auto dealerships close their doors and lots of retail spaces go under too. The city is starting to look "challenged" you might say from its outward appearance. SEIU reps were there to say that they wanted to be included in the plans discussions. Green industry folks also showed up to promote their offerings. A little over a 100 grand in Fed stimulus money was handed out to various community serviced groups, like those providing homeless services.

Missing from this meeting, (except for one guy who is a friend of mine) were some of the religious organizations who've been active in a variety of social and humanitarian campaigns in the city. These the city will desperately need as the depression worsens.

Post by **Elderberry** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:42 pm

can't sit still wrote:"In the world at large, the difference in salary levels is shocking. At the top in Japan, the average executive earns only 3 times as much as the average salaryman. In Britain, top executives earn more than 10 times as much as their Japanese counterparts - or 39 times the average guy on the shop floor. And in America, the poor working stiff supports an executive who earns more than 300 times more than he does.

Is the American worth 10 times as much as his British confrere? Is he worth 100 times his Japanese competition? Is his business run better than either of theirs?"

http://optionarmageddon.ml-implode.com/ ... -zimbabwe/

No I don't. I think these are the people that Obama wants to redistribute wealth from; which more and more I am thinking is a good idea. I also think that you will be seeing more of those companies that are 'too big to fail' being broken up into smaller companies (forced to via new government rules and regulations--similar to anti-trust and other laws re monopolies and the effect they will be allowed to have on the economy. Especially considering all of that money they made was smoke and mirrors money; I think the time for uber wealth taking is over.

JK

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:38 am

jkisha wrote:
can't sit still wrote:"In the world at large, the difference in salary levels is shocking. At the top in Japan, the average executive earns only 3 times as much as the average salaryman. In Britain, top executives earn more than 10 times as much as their Japanese counterparts - or 39 times the average guy on the shop floor. And in America, the poor working stiff supports an executive who earns more than 300 times more than he does.

Is the American worth 10 times as much as his British confrere? Is he worth 100 times his Japanese competition? Is his business run better than either of theirs?"

http://optionarmageddon.ml-implode.com/ ... -zimbabwe/
No I don't. I think these are the people that Obama wants to redistribute wealth from; which more and more I am thinking is a good idea. I also think that you will be seeing more of those companies that are 'too big to fail' being broken up into smaller companies (forced to via new government rules and regulations--similar to anti-trust and other laws re monopolies and the effect they will be allowed to have on the economy. Especially considering all of that money they made was smoke and mirrors money; I think the time for uber wealth taking is over.

JK

interesting, JK.
As a business owner, do you make maximum profit?
Is that profit meant for your lifestyle?
Should it be your choice how much you, or any of your staff, are paid?
And,
who decides at what level "uber wealth" begins?
To a Somali, our poor are probably "uber wealthy"
And, if America is truly going to come into line with global wages and economies..........

I use the above as example only, general reference.
From what I know of you, from your writings, I feel you are a very fair person, and, would not do anything underhanded.
I'm just talking about all things done fair and legal.

But still:
we all want to make as much money as we can, or feel we need, to live the life we want.
Some achieve it, some strive for it, some give up...........

I just don't like the concept of "wealth re-distribution" as a government policy. To much power to make arbitrary decisions....and, I'd bet, congress (and gov), would exempt themselves anyway..........

Would the Kennedy's, Rockefeller's, etc. turn over their fortunes?
I doubt it....after all, it's all in "trusts" and so, supposedly, not thiers anyway.........

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:00 am

I don't think the focus should be so much as to what levels of income are to be considered grossly over the top as it should be on how those monies were gained. Were they secured by Cayman island tax shelters? Were they gained by dis-employing US workers in favor of cheap exploited labor overseas? Were they obtained by subverting democracy and showering legislatures with bushels of dollars in campaign contributions and even bribes? Were those monies obtained by unregulated trading in casino financial instruments?

If the focus is on the dishonest and anti-American methods of obtaining tremendous wealth, then reforming that toxicity becomes easier to explain and understand. We are talking about the top 1% don't forget.

ygmir · Post by **ygmir** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:08 am

yup, I'm with ya there.........

I guess I'm just sayin' it's a slippery slope, government regulation.

I understand the need. Agree with some. but, would like it kept in check as much as possible.........

The unfortunate thing, is, IMHO, that so much would not be necessary if people were just honest and fair.........

and, if we'd bring back public hangings for bernie madoff, et al..........

littleflower · Post by **littleflower** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:39 am

cowboyangel wrote:I don't think the focus should be so much as to what levels of income are to be considered grossly over the top as it should be on how those monies were gained. Were they secured by Cayman island tax shelters? Were they gained by dis-employing US workers in favor of cheap exploited labor overseas? Were they obtained by subverting democracy and showering legislatures with bushels of dollars in campaign contributions and even bribes? Were those monies obtained by unregulated trading in casino financial instruments?

If the focus is on the dishonest and anti-American methods of obtaining tremendous wealth, then reforming that toxicity becomes easier to explain and understand. We are talking about the top 1% don't forget.

a lot of companies are foreign owned ... what rules would apply to them? what about international relations? the steel industry, for example ... keeping our own industry would have required either massive pay cuts, or price protection from the government, and other countries cried foul when bush tried to work it out. my own job was recently outsourced from california to kansas, with a 35% paycut ... does that count? is it OK for unions to lobby the government?

40% federal, plus state, sales, property, &c adds up to an awful lot of tax money. the people i know who make 250K/year work their asses off, and a good chunk of their earnings is paid in assets that are not liquid, e.g. company stock ... but it's taxed like cash ... so they are cash poor. not that i feel sorry for them ... but at some point, they will stop working so hard, and this will be more likely to hurt the poor, than help them.

not that i necessarily disagree with you, CBA ... but it's so much more complicated.... and i also fear giving too much control to the government.

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:09 am

littleflower wrote:
cowboyangel wrote:I don't think the focus should be so much as to what levels of income are to be considered grossly over the top as it should be on how those monies were gained. Were they secured by Cayman island tax shelters? Were they gained by dis-employing US workers in favor of cheap exploited labor overseas? Were they obtained by subverting democracy and showering legislatures with bushels of dollars in campaign contributions and even bribes? Were those monies obtained by unregulated trading in casino financial instruments?

If the focus is on the dishonest and anti-American methods of obtaining tremendous wealth, then reforming that toxicity becomes easier to explain and understand. We are talking about the top 1% don't forget.
a lot of companies are foreign owned ... what rules would apply to them? what about international relations? the steel industry, for example ... keeping our own industry would have required either massive pay cuts, or price protection from the government, and other countries cried foul when bush tried to work it out. my own job was recently outsourced from california to kansas, with a 35% paycut ... does that count? is it OK for unions to lobby the government?

40% federal, plus state, sales, property, &c adds up to an awful lot of tax money. the people i know who make 250K/year work their asses off, and a good chunk of their earnings is paid in assets that are not liquid, e.g. company stock ... but it's taxed like cash ... so they are cash poor. not that i feel sorry for them ... but at some point, they will stop working so hard, and this will be more likely to hurt the poor, than help them.

not that i necessarily disagree with you, CBA ... but it's so much more complicated.... and i also fear giving too much control to the government.

I hear you LF. I disagree with the Obama tax increases starting at 250K. That is unfair as you say. These are the folks who generate alot of ancillary business. The tax increases should slam that top 1%. and eliminate off shore tax shelters and make derivative trading illegal as it was under Roosevelt until Reagan repealed that in 85. Government has to step in with re-regulating the financial sector, because the so called "free market" got us into this mess and they sure as hell aren't about to regulate themselves.

can't sit still · Post by **can't sit still** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:27 pm

"The Fed has just reported that U.S. household wealth dropped $11.1 TRILLION in 2008 - $5.1 trillion of that in the last 3 months alone. " The collapse is picking up speed.
They better send out those tax bills right away.

As far as taxing goes, I think that GOV should differentiate. Those that are invested in the domestic producing economy should be left more or less alone. Those who made a killing in finance should be squeezed with both hands. Those who did LBOs with junk bonds so that they could strip the assets from good companies should be wiped out. Capitalism is harsh enough. Cannibalism is just too much.
The war industries shoul'd be dismantled. War is just too expensive. If we stop making war machines, just about everyone else will stop too. War just doesn't make economic sense anymore. North Korea is one of the few holding on to old useless dogma.

GOV is married to Keynesian economics which requires a high birth rate. GOV has impoverished everyone which results in a low birth rate.
If they would dump Keynes and Friedman into the trash bin, they could stabilize the population and bring up the standard of living. [/u]

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:53 pm

Kucinich should call for a C-Span covered special emergency seminar on the financial crisis and alternative approaches to solving it. This would give his guy, Prof. Michael Hudson, a chance to ream the assholes (pardon the pun) of Bernanke and the other vampires. http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/200 ... more-36648

here's the whole document:

by Prof. Michael Hudson
Global Research, March 16, 2009

Ben Bernankeâ€™s False Analogy

On the March 15 CBS show â€œ60 Minutesâ€

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:58 pm

Focus your minds on Opulence.

cowboyangel · Post by **cowboyangel** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:26 pm

I just called Kucinich's office and left a message about my idea for him a to chair a Special Emergency Seminar on Alternative Solutions to the Financial Crisis. Hudson, Michel Chossudovsky, Dean Baker, Nouriel Rabini, Doug Henwood and others should participate. Have John Stewart host it fer Christs sake.

Screw the Banks and Investment Firms

Re: A personel perspective on the recession