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Post by DVD Burner » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:08 am

Simon of the Playa wrote:yeas AntiM, i agree, this forum has denigrated into flogging a dead Kosher Horse.

with the right sauce and tenderizing, it could be tasty kibble, but right now it's pretty venomous.

and that's not to say that people are wrong or right, just the tone has started to grate on my ears and i'd prefer more harmonic discourse, or at least a little more subtlety.
Well I know where it began:
http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... start=4110

Before then it was somewhat harmonious as politics threads go.

But then the war started, I posted what Israel was doing and was called all kind of names and told to "shut the fuck up"

From that point on it has just been a "people cant take what they dish out " bash.

Politics is for suckers.
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Post by wedeliver » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:12 am

ygmir wrote:
jkisha wrote:
ygmir wrote:I wonder if "hate crime" laws will be invoked to protect the prop 8 supporters?..........
I don't know--what 'protected class' would they be a member of that would cause those laws to apply?

JK
that's kind of my point.........I don't really like the "protected class" thing........
as sated, it's a crime to be mean or attack others............
why do some get more 'protections"..............
I'm not for being mean to others..........I'm also against "special protection".
we're all citizens, why don't the laws and protections apply equally?
If it's illegal to harm another person, why should it be "even more illegal" to harm certain people from certain groups?

and, because people support a cause that is non PC, or, agreed with, should they feel "exposed"? or more susceptible to attack?

maybe I'm naive?..........
help me with this, if so...............

Hate crime, older then jesus. Most countries in the world have enhanced penalty for bias motivated crimes. History has show the need.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_crime
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Post by Elderberry » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:14 am

And eplaya, it seems, is home to the 'biggest sucker of them all'.

JK
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Post by DVD Burner » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:25 am

jkisha wrote:And eplaya, it seems, is home to the 'biggest sucker of them all'.

JK
and the name calling continues. Why not just call me an anti semite?

Oh wait, yall did that already.

Mind you I dont start em but I do finish it.

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Post by Elderberry » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:46 am

I don't recall mentioning any names in my posts. If you felt that was directed to you, it is your problem, not mine.

JK
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Post by DVD Burner » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:48 am

Nice try and cheap shot.
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Post by DVD Burner » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:55 am

In fact, it's even gotten as far as this: http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... highlight=

Just for pointing out the facts about Hamas and Israel.

Facts most here refuse to accept.

So yeah, when people hit I hit back usually 5 fold.

I dont have a problem with it because in the long run as usual I come out on top because I always have my facts straight.

I always get the last laugh.
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Post by ygmir » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:55 am

wedeliver wrote:
ygmir wrote:
jkisha wrote: I don't know--what 'protected class' would they be a member of that would cause those laws to apply?

JK
that's kind of my point.........I don't really like the "protected class" thing........
as sated, it's a crime to be mean or attack others............
why do some get more 'protections"..............
I'm not for being mean to others..........I'm also against "special protection".
we're all citizens, why don't the laws and protections apply equally?
If it's illegal to harm another person, why should it be "even more illegal" to harm certain people from certain groups?

and, because people support a cause that is non PC, or, agreed with, should they feel "exposed"? or more susceptible to attack?

maybe I'm naive?..........
help me with this, if so...............

Hate crime, older then jesus. Most countries in the world have enhanced penalty for bias motivated crimes. History has show the need.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_crime
and perpetuates social stratification,,,,,,,,IMHO.........

why should it be any more "illegal" to beat up (or, insert whatever crime) one person than another?

I just see it as a feel good thing, like saying you "care" more about some than others.....pandering, IMHO...........

It becomes automatic, if you're a member of a "non special" group, and, commit a crime against a "special" group, you're committing a hate crime...........

and, the opposite, where, if your a "non-special" person, and, get attacked, certainly the "special" attackers are not charged with "hate", and, quite often, they are even excused, or charges mitigated, because, they are "oppressed" or some such thing......
I've heard it said about a person assaulted:
"Well you should have known better than to be in that part of town."
and, people agreeing with it.........


WTF?

It's not ok to hurt or commit crimes against others. period.
why is is "worse" for some than others?

I just think it creates divisions that are not necessary.

enforce the laws we have (all 10K or whatever there are).

*stepping down off soapbox, nodding in thanks for the opportunity to speak*
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Post by wedeliver » Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:02 am

DVD Burner wrote: I always get the last laugh.
You might get the last laugh, but if everyone else is gone, you are laughing with yourself.

Having the last laugh might not be the best thing. Being able to turn a cheek is almost biblical.
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Post by DVD Burner » Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:05 am

Turning the other cheek is for suckers.

If hitting back makes people go then so be it, because they should not be hitting in the first place.

especially if they know they cant take it.
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Post by wedeliver » Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:08 am

ygmir wrote:
.........

why should it be any more "illegal" to beat up (or, insert whatever crime) one person than another?
*stepping down off soapbox, nodding in thanks for the opportunity to speak*
I kinda agree with you but then I realize how small my world is.

Concern about hate crimes has become increasingly prominent among policymakers in many nations and at all levels of government in recent years, but the phenomenon is not new. Examples from the past include Roman persecution of Christians, the Ottoman genocide of Armenians, and the Nazi "final solution" for the Jews, and more recently, the ethnic cleansing in Bosnia and genocide in Rwanda. Hate crimes have shaped and sometimes defined world history. In the United States, racial and religious biases have inspired most hate crimes. As Europeans began to colonize the New World in the 16th and 17th centuries, Native Americans increasingly became the targets of bias-motivated intimidation and violence. During the past two centuries, some of the more typical examples of hate crimes in the US include lynchings of African Americans, cross burnings to drive black families from predominantly white neighborhoods, assaults on gay, lesbian and transgender people, and the painting of swastikas on Jewish synagogues, as well as attacks against European Americans, such as the Murder of Channon Christian and Christopher Newsom and the Wichita Massacre. [3]
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Post by Elderberry » Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:37 am

ygmir wrote:
wedeliver wrote:
ygmir wrote: that's kind of my point.........I don't really like the "protected class" thing........
as sated, it's a crime to be mean or attack others............
why do some get more 'protections"..............
I'm not for being mean to others..........I'm also against "special protection".
we're all citizens, why don't the laws and protections apply equally?
If it's illegal to harm another person, why should it be "even more illegal" to harm certain people from certain groups?

and, because people support a cause that is non PC, or, agreed with, should they feel "exposed"? or more susceptible to attack?

maybe I'm naive?..........
help me with this, if so...............

Hate crime, older then jesus. Most countries in the world have enhanced penalty for bias motivated crimes. History has show the need.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_crime
and perpetuates social stratification,,,,,,,,IMHO.........

why should it be any more "illegal" to beat up (or, insert whatever crime) one person than another?

I just see it as a feel good thing, like saying you "care" more about some than others.....pandering, IMHO...........

It becomes automatic, if you're a member of a "non special" group, and, commit a crime against a "special" group, you're committing a hate crime...........

and, the opposite, where, if your a "non-special" person, and, get attacked, certainly the "special" attackers are not charged with "hate", and, quite often, they are even excused, or charges mitigated, because, they are "oppressed" or some such thing......
I've heard it said about a person assaulted:
"Well you should have known better than to be in that part of town."
and, people agreeing with it.........


WTF?

It's not ok to hurt or commit crimes against others. period.
why is is "worse" for some than others?

I just think it creates divisions that are not necessary.

enforce the laws we have (all 10K or whatever there are).

*stepping down off soapbox, nodding in thanks for the opportunity to speak*
I didn't think I was disagreeing with you.

I'm just saying that I'm sure somewhere in their inception, someone thought, for some reason unknown to you and I, that there was a need for such legislation. I think it was designed to make a person think twice, sort of like an exclaimation point to the existing law. But the key is 'existing'. Same as gun legislation--already is existing law for criminals that use guns. (Though that's a whole different can of worms, because I do thinkthere are different circumstances that might apply in the cities than in the more rural areas.)

Ahhh...all the shades between black and white.

JK
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Post by Elderberry » Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:43 am

He who laughs last thinks slowest.
JK
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Post by DVD Burner » Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:09 pm

He who has the last laugh has fore sight!

:P



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Post by AntiM » Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:25 pm

Now that's funny.

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Post by DVD Burner » Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:52 pm

:lol:
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Post by Box Burner » Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:19 pm

On Proposition 8.

the proposition was for residents of the state of California,

So anyone who is not a resident of the state of should not be allowed to vote or contribute funds for either side of the issue.

Churches, businesses, and any other non-living entity should not be allowed to vote or contribute funds or publish propaganda for either side. Exception here is the press who should be required to report fairly, evenly and accurately both sides of an issue or election campaign.

Should be punishable by law to contribute in any way if you are not a resident of the state. Also should be punishable by law to accept such contributions. Accepting support from out of state should result in all votes from that side of the issue being void. (this would cause the result to go the other way)

I know it does not work that way but that is how it should be.
Dance in the heart of chaos. . . . .

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Post by DVD Burner » Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:52 pm

Russian Politics anyone?

Has anyone seen what the big deal is with the Russia and Ukraine Gas Deal and who it is Vladimir Putin has been fighting with?




Image

Yeah buddy, I see what Vladimir Putin's problem is. This is Yulia Tymoshenko

And check out this dress:

Image
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Post by Elderberry » Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:39 pm

DVDBurner: A Legend in His Own Mind

JK
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Post by Elderberry » Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:42 pm

Box Burner wrote:On Proposition 8.

the proposition was for residents of the state of California,

So anyone who is not a resident of the state of should not be allowed to vote or contribute funds for either side of the issue.

Churches, businesses, and any other non-living entity should not be allowed to vote or contribute funds or publish propaganda for either side. Exception here is the press who should be required to report fairly, evenly and accurately both sides of an issue or election campaign.

Should be punishable by law to contribute in any way if you are not a resident of the state. Also should be punishable by law to accept such contributions. Accepting support from out of state should result in all votes from that side of the issue being void. (this would cause the result to go the other way)

I know it does not work that way but that is how it should be.
Yes, that sounds so logical, doesn't it. Unfortunately, I think that interferes with free speech or expression or something. But I don't know why it should be any different than the regulations for having a drivers license in the state or residency. If you aren't a resident you can't get a drivers license. If you can't vote in the state, you can't provide funds to the election.

JK
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Post by Box Burner » Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:51 pm

Does not interfere with free speech. You can yell about it all you want... in your own state. When the issue is on the ballot in your state then you can contribute money and propaganda.
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Post by Elderberry » Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:13 pm

Box Burner wrote:Does not interfere with free speech. You can yell about it all you want... in your own state. When the issue is on the ballot in your state then you can contribute money and propaganda.
I'm definately on your side on this.

JK
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Post by DVD Burner » Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:19 pm

jkisha wrote:
Box Burner wrote:Does not interfere with free speech. You can yell about it all you want... in your own state. When the issue is on the ballot in your state then you can contribute money and propaganda.
I'm definately on your side on this.

JK
So why ya yellin? And the correct spelling is definitely.
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Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:54 pm

Box Burner wrote:On Proposition 8.

the proposition was for residents of the state of California,

So anyone who is not a resident of the state of should not be allowed to vote or contribute funds for either side of the issue.

Churches, businesses, and any other non-living entity should not be allowed to vote or contribute funds or publish propaganda for either side. Exception here is the press who should be required to report fairly, evenly and accurately both sides of an issue or election campaign.

Should be punishable by law to contribute in any way if you are not a resident of the state. Also should be punishable by law to accept such contributions. Accepting support from out of state should result in all votes from that side of the issue being void. (this would cause the result to go the other way)

I know it does not work that way but that is how it should be.
On one side I agree with you, but to change the federal system, changes must first happen in the state. Like Legalizing Pot, Or Gay marriage.

And to do so you need organized group on the national level.

On exposure of donors, its the law. So there is not argument there.

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Post by Box Burner » Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:15 am

AIIZ

Yes you are right to change things at the Federal level you do need to organize nationwide. But on the state level only residents of that state should be allowed to participate. Leave that door open and you could have all 5 million Mormons in the United States campaigning and contributing funds to have issues decided their way in California. People are already complaining that the results were skewed by people not living in California. What you seem to be suggesting is that because the people who favor the change are a minority in the state that they be allowed to bring in outsiders to skew the results in their favor. If you keep that door open it is open for everybody.

Remember, the issue on gay marriage had already passed and those who did not like it engineered an end run to change the state constitution. I am of the opinion that the results on prop 8 were skewed by folks outside the state.
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Post by DVD Burner » Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:23 am

Amira Hass / Gazans say IDF troops ignored white flags and shot at them


By Amira Hass
Tags: Gaza, Hamas, Israel
Last update - 08:18 20/01/2009


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1056952.html

Gaza residents are claiming that some Palestinians killed during the three weeks of fighting were waving white flags at the time they were shot. Four of them were members of the A-Najar family of the village of Khuza'a, east of Khan Yunis.

Statements attesting to the circumstances surrounding their deaths was provided to the B'Tselem human rights organization and Haaretz over the telephone.

On the night between January 12-13, Israel Defense Forces soldiers entered Khuza'a, which is only a few hundred meters from the border with Israel. A few hours of shelling caused fires, which residents attempted to put out, Monir A-Najar told Haaretz on Monday.
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At around 5 A.M., the tanks started to enter the town's eastern sections. Thick smoke prevented residents from seeing what was happening, and they only heard sounds of the destruction of houses, shooting and shelling. The residents of the houses, adults and children, climbed out on the roofs of their houses on their own and for about an hour stood and waved white flags. Helicopters fired at them "in order to scare them, not to injure them," said Monir A-Najar.

At that point, about 8 A.M., the soldiers used loudspeakers to order them to gather at the center of the village. A few dozen of the residents gathered in the courtyard of Osama A-Najar's house. Monir A-Najar said the soldiers ordered them to leave the house two at a time.

The first to leave were Ruwahiya and Yasmin A-Najar. Yasmin told B'Tselem on January 14 that another group of women came out of a number of neighboring houses.

"We walked at the head of a group of women and we waved white flags. We managed to pass three houses on the street and then I saw an Israeli soldier 40 meters away aiming his weapon at us," said Yasmin A-Najar. "I thought he wanted us to come closer. Ruwahiya and I continued to walk and suddenly the soldier shot at us."

Yasmin was wounded in her right leg and Ruwahiya fell on the street with her head bleeding. The rest of the women panicked and scattered, hiding while the shooting continued.

Yasmin said she tried to return and help Ruwahiya but the soldiers fired at her. They also shot at the ambulance driver who arrived and he was forced to turn back, she said. When Ruwahiya was finally evacuated at 8 P.M., she was already dead.

In the morning, the army continued to destroy houses in the neighborhood, they said. The people who were hiding in the houses, after Ruwahiya was killed, started to flee the tanks, yelling Allahu Akhbar, said Monir A-Najar.

"We were all holding white flags, women's head scarves. We were fleeing and they were shooting at us," Monir A-Najar told Haaretz. He said special forces were deployed in the streets.

He said that when those fleeing were 100-150 meters from Osama A-Najar's house, three family members were killed: Mahmoud A-Najar, 56; Ahmad A-Najar, 25; and Halil A-Najar, 80. Monir said another 10 residents were killed that day, most from a missile that hit the school and a house next to it, where they were taking refuge.

The Palestinian Center for Human Rights said one of those killed was a member of the Iz al-Din al-Qassam militant wing of Hamas. Of the 50 houses destroyed or severely damaged in the town, the PCHR says one belonged to another Iz al-Din al-Qassam activist.

During the two weeks of the ground assault it was difficult for representatives of human rights groups to gather full statements from residents. Human rights workers were limited in their ability to meet face to face with residents due to the danger involved in travelling within the Gaza Strip, and even telephone contacts were often fragmented. They have begun gathering more precise information on the wounding deaths and injuries of many civilians.

The PCHR said the total number of dead as of January 18 was 1,251; of whom 168 were policemen. 292 were children and 97 were women. The PCHR says 179 of those killed were armed militants.
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Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:37 am

Box Burner wrote:AIIZ

Yes you are right to change things at the Federal level you do need to organize nationwide. But on the state level only residents of that state should be allowed to participate. Leave that door open and you could have all 5 million Mormons in the United States campaigning and contributing funds to have issues decided their way in California. People are already complaining that the results were skewed by people not living in California. What you seem to be suggesting is that because the people who favor the change are a minority in the state that they be allowed to bring in outsiders to skew the results in their favor. If you keep that door open it is open for everybody.

Remember, the issue on gay marriage had already passed and those who did not like it engineered an end run to change the state constitution. I am of the opinion that the results on prop 8 were skewed by folks outside the state.
the failure then, as I see it, was the failure of the national gay rights groups to mobilize to counter act. But you may be right on the national level. It would be interesting to see if CA changes the law, but I don't see that happening by the powers of the national politcal organizations and their politicians at the state level.

AIIZ

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Post by Donna Matrix » Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:55 am

Nothing will change. Humans like killing other humans... sad, but true.
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Post by Sail Man » Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:21 am

DVD Burner wrote:He who has the last laugh has fore sight!

:P



(Would have responded quicker but I just got to work.) :D


:shock: You actually work??!
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Post by Elderberry » Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:29 am

Well, we have a new President!

JK
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