Nothing Can Be Done Thread.

[Eric]

However if I want to educate myself and discuss this and form an opinion about what the man is like now places like this are it for me. So I say lets discuss it.

Here is where I get confused. There are over 13 threads discussing it, yet people act like there is some sort of concerted effort to shut down discussion. Not everyone may agree with all the points that are being said, and they are free to express their opinion as well (even Mods), but it's turned into a pile of threads all on the same topic, because someone from a previous thread gets upset that their opinion isn't ... I don't honestly know. Bowed to? The only opinion? The only way to have an opinion?

For the life of me I can't figure out what the whole "why can't we discuss it" thing is about. Discuss away! Have at it! Just don't expect every other person on ePlaya to agree with you - that's part of what a discussion is. The people who disagree with the majority have every right to express that - in the same thread - as the majority does to express their opinion.

The "shut up or go away" posts I'm seeing from people who are fuming over the turnkey camps are much more troubling to me than the fact not everyone agrees. If someone disagrees it doesn't mean they're an idiot, or a lackey, or a cultist. It means they don't agree with you. Seriously, if it was just a group of people sitting around agreeing with each-other it would be a circle-jerk, not a discussion.

[Lonesomebri]

Being a rabble-rouser isn't a skill.

Any two year old knows how to throw tantrums and make a lot of noise.

Not much good comes from either.

We all can't agree with the moderators on every subject like the intellectuals do here. And yeah, being a rabble rouser is a skill. Look how it gets the goat of the road-blocks. Carry on.


As always, if you don't see a problem, you might be part of it.

I don't have a solution, nor claim to have one. I do claim there is a problem, so I am way ahead of others on this matter. how about the smart guys come up with solutions. That ain't my skill, neither is saying "welcome to eplaya" until i get a pat on the back.

[theCryptofishist]

13?

[Eric]

Being a rabble-rouser isn't a skill.

Any two year old knows how to throw tantrums and make a lot of noise.

Not much good comes from either.

Gotta disagree. Anyone can throw a tantrum, being a rabble-rouser takes skill and multiple talents. Throwing a tantrum is just pushing your anger on people around you with no results, being a rabble-rouser is using your anger to stir people up to make great changes.

Vladamir Lenin was a rabble-rouser, Robespierre was a rabble-rouser, Samuel Adams was one as well. The "Umbrella Protests" in Hong Kong? Led by rabble-rousers, as was most of the "Arab spring" and the "Velvet Revolution" in (then) Czeckoslovakia. Great good (and horrible evil) for a society can come from being a rabble-rouser, while throwing a tantrum only affects the people who happen to be near, and doesn't lead to any structural change in any direction.

[The Rod]

Yeah, that number is highly suspect.

[kiboy]

However if I want to educate myself and discuss this and form an opinion about what the man is like now places like this are it for me. So I say lets discuss it.

Here is where I get confused. There are over 13 threads discussing it, yet people act like there is some sort of concerted effort to shut down discussion. Not everyone may agree with all the points that are being said, and they are free to express their opinion as well (even Mods), but it's turned into a pile of threads all on the same topic, because someone from a previous thread gets upset that their opinion isn't ... I don't honestly know. Bowed to? The only opinion? The only way to have an opinion?

For the life of me I can't figure out what the whole "why can't we discuss it" thing is about. Discuss away! Have at it! Just don't expect every other person on ePlaya to agree with you - that's part of what a discussion is. The people who disagree with the majority have every right to express that - in the same thread - as the majority does to express their opinion.

The "shut up or go away" posts I'm seeing from people who are fuming over the turnkey camps are much more troubling to me than the fact not everyone agrees. If someone disagrees it doesn't mean they're an idiot, or a lackey, or a cultist. It means they don't agree with you. Seriously, if it was just a group of people sitting around agreeing with each-other it would be a circle-jerk, not a discussion.

Yeah, good point. I've done my best to stay open to all sides of the discussion. I've seen this on other forums with the multiple thread shit. Threads naturally degenerate into off topic blah blah blah and so someone starts it up again somewhere else to try to get back on point. That's another reason for multiple threads.

That and humans need a little drama so we can feel alive and that some shit's important. Very little of it is but we like to pretend.

[kiboy]

I just realized I've been thinking about this P&P shit for a couple of weeks and no new info has been forthcoming.

At this point I see nothing wrong with a well run P&P operation that embodies the principles outlined for all of us at BM.

So at this point I'm going to be waiting to hear from the BORG on their findings on any abuses surrounding P&P. If there were abuses and they are addressed then I'm good to go. I do still have questions on how placement and tickets are allotted to these groups and how that will affect ticket availability in general. I mean if it's true that these operations are more profitable to BORG then they may get a lot more placement at some future date. I just don't know about that shit.

So I guess until I hear something new I'll try to let this just slide off the main radar for now. It sure has been fun though.

[666isMONEY]

There's two new posts on The Burning Blog about it:

http://blog.burningman.com/2014/10/tenp ... rning-man/

http://blog.burningman.com/2014/10/tenp ... f-paradise

[Elderberry]

There's two new posts on The Burning Blog about it:

http://blog.burningman.com/2014/10/tenp ... rning-man/

http://blog.burningman.com/2014/10/tenp ... f-paradise

Those are both great articles and pretty much sum up my feelings towards PnP camping.

[Elderberry]

Being a rabble-rouser isn't a skill.

Any two year old knows how to throw tantrums and make a lot of noise.

Not much good comes from either.

Gotta disagree. Anyone can throw a tantrum, being a rabble-rouser takes skill and multiple talents. Throwing a tantrum is just pushing your anger on people around you with no results, being a rabble-rouser is using your anger to stir people up to make great changes.

Vladamir Lenin was a rabble-rouser, Robespierre was a rabble-rouser, Samuel Adams was one as well. The "Umbrella Protests" in Hong Kong? Led by rabble-rousers, as was most of the "Arab spring" and the "Velvet Revolution" in (then) Czeckoslovakia. Great good (and horrible evil) for a society can come from being a rabble-rouser, while throwing a tantrum only affects the people who happen to be near, and doesn't lead to any structural change in any direction.

You might want to check again on the definition of rabble rouser. This was the definition and the meaning I wanted to convey http://www.google.com/search?q=rabble+r ... ent=safari

[Elderberry]

However if I want to educate myself and discuss this and form an opinion about what the man is like now places like this are it for me. So I say lets discuss it.

Here is where I get confused. There are over 13 threads discussing it, yet people act like there is some sort of concerted effort to shut down discussion. Not everyone may agree with all the points that are being said, and they are free to express their opinion as well (even Mods), but it's turned into a pile of threads all on the same topic, because someone from a previous thread gets upset that their opinion isn't ... I don't honestly know. Bowed to? The only opinion? The only way to have an opinion?

For the life of me I can't figure out what the whole "why can't we discuss it" thing is about. Discuss away! Have at it! Just don't expect every other person on ePlaya to agree with you - that's part of what a discussion is. The people who disagree with the majority have every right to express that - in the same thread - as the majority does to express their opinion.

The "shut up or go away" posts I'm seeing from people who are fuming over the turnkey camps are much more troubling to me than the fact not everyone agrees. If someone disagrees it doesn't mean they're an idiot, or a lackey, or a cultist. It means they don't agree with you. Seriously, if it was just a group of people sitting around agreeing with each-other it would be a circle-jerk, not a discussion.

Yes. You hit the nail right on the head.

[Elderberry]

I just realized I've been thinking about this P&P shit for a couple of weeks and no new info has been forthcoming.

At this point I see nothing wrong with a well run P&P operation that embodies the principles outlined for all of us at BM.

So at this point I'm going to be waiting to hear from the BORG on their findings on any abuses surrounding P&P. If there were abuses and they are addressed then I'm good to go. I do still have questions on how placement and tickets are allotted to these groups and how that will affect ticket availability in general. I mean if it's true that these operations are more profitable to BORG then they may get a lot more placement at some future date. I just don't know about that shit.

So I guess until I hear something new I'll try to let this just slide off the main radar for now. It sure has been fun though.

[Eric]

Yeah, that number is highly suspect.

Might help if all the words were used:

There are over 13 threads discussing it

note the use of the qualifier "over". Why 13? Why not? I like the number, and it's not as boring as 10.

[Elderberry]

I always thought 10 was boring. That made me smile.

[Eric]

You might want to check again on the definition of rabble rouser. This was the definition and the meaning I wanted to convey http://www.google.com/search?q=rabble+r ... ent=safari

From the link you supplied.

a person who speaks with the intention of inflaming the emotions of a crowd of people, typically for political reasons.

That fits all the people I mentioned. You'll notice that the same link lists "troublemaker" and "revolutionary" as synonyms - the authorities will see a rabble-rouser as a troublemaker (getting the damn rabble all agitated over things that the Ruling Class should deal with), while many in the crowd will see them as revolutionaries, trying to overthrow the same Ruling Class, or at least institute changes.

In the case of Burning Man and the turnkey camps, an anti-turnkey camp rabble-rouser would inflame the emotions of Burners so that the Org was forced to change the system in a way that reflected their desires.

[kiboy]

There's two new posts on The Burning Blog about it:

http://blog.burningman.com/2014/10/tenp ... rning-man/

http://blog.burningman.com/2014/10/tenp ... f-paradise

Those are both great articles and pretty much sum up my feelings towards PnP camping.

Well it didn't take long for my radar to come alive again.

Does this include the comments attached to those articles? IMO some important questions were addressed that the articles may have missed. Do we agree that knowing how these camps acquire tickets and possibly camping areas is worth looking at? I'd at least like to understand the rationale for what they do and to know what it is they actually get. Can anyone address that issue with some accuracy?

And finally now that this discussion is temporarily at an end (for me hopefully) I'm hoping you will keep me entertained with wild stories of your sexual escapades on the playa. or maybe it's just this

[Elderberry]

You might want to check again on the definition of rabble rouser. This was the definition and the meaning I wanted to convey http://www.google.com/search?q=rabble+r ... ent=safari

From the link you supplied.

a person who speaks with the intention of inflaming the emotions of a crowd of people, typically for political reasons.

That fits all the people I mentioned. You'll notice that the same link lists "troublemaker" and "revolutionary" as synonyms - the authorities will see a rabble-rouser as a troublemaker (getting the damn rabble all agitated over things that the Ruling Class should deal with), while many in the crowd will see them as revolutionaries, trying to overthrow the same Ruling Class, or at least institute changes.

In the case of Burning Man and the turnkey camps, an anti-turnkey camp rabble-rouser would inflame the emotions of Burners so that the Org was forced to change the system in a way that reflected their desires.

Then we'll just say, for your sake and to preserve my original intent, I'll replace rabble rouser with troublemaker.

[kiboy]

Can't have no trouble makers round here.

[Bin Noddin]

Read the thread, tried and failed to understand what it is about or how it relates exactly to the multiple PnP discussions. Huh, huh huh?

When I was a kid, horses, mules and donkeys were still widely used for farming, carting and riding where we lived. When I was about 8 or 9 I saw a man savagely beating a nearly dead horse that had collapsed in its traces. I remember the horse was white, still struggling feebly under the blows. It was a horrifying experience that still haunts and troubles me greatly.

Fills pipe with poison tobacco and smokes it.

[Elderberry]

Read the thread, tried and failed to understand what it is about or how it relates exactly to the multiple PnP discussions. Huh, huh huh?

When I was a kid, horses, mules and donkeys were still widely used for farming, carting and riding where we lived. When I was about 8 or 9 I saw a man savagely beating a nearly dead horse that had collapsed in its traces. I remember the horse was white, still struggling feebly under the blows. It was a horrifying experience that still haunts and troubles me greatly.

Fills pipe with poison tobacco and smokes it.

Great story, point well made!

[theCryptofishist]

When I was a kid, horses, mules and donkeys were still widely used for farming, carting and riding where we lived. When I was about 8 or 9 I saw a man savagely beating a nearly dead horse that had collapsed in its traces. I remember the horse was white, still struggling feebly under the blows. It was a horrifying experience that still haunts and troubles me greatly.

OH my god, really? (What a stupid thing for me to have said, sorry.)
For years, I have had to hold on to my memory of two 19th-century novels in order to clarify how much I hate the banality that that phrase lives in now, as compared to the horror of what once it meant. Black Beauty and Crime and Punishment. At one point I looked for the scene in Black Beauty, and it turns out that it was sorta toned down--by which I mean, Beauty sees the horse being beaten, then later sees a horse that looks like the same horse, dead and being hauled to the knacker. Or renderer.
Dostoevski actually saw a horse beaten to death...

There is a problem in idioms and metaphors that outlive their referent. In this case, something so violent and disturbing is replaced by something so abstract that we don't really know how evil the act is...

For a while I tried to campaign against the use of that idiom on this board, but I gave up.

[theCryptofishist]

Okay, I had it at four.

[Ratty]

I remember when the first few months after the burn were calm and reflective. People talked about their pets, the weather, the mess still in a pile of dust. It was like sitting around a campfire telling Burning Man stories. Boring? Sure, in a warm comfortable way. Is there a joke thread? Can you write out a joke and have it be funny? Am I boring you? Sorry.

[theCryptofishist]

There is a jokes thread in open discussion, but I can't find it.

[Lonesomebri]

Troublemaker vs. the circle-jerkers.

[Elderberry]

Troublemaker vs. the circle-jerkers.

Hey! I resemble that remark.

[kiboy]

Maybe it's a good thing that 40% of Burners now are Newbs.

[Elderberry]

Maybe it's a good thing that 40% of Burners now are Newbs.

Not so sure about that. Everybody is new once, but it becomes harder to preserve and pass down the culture when the percent of new influx each year gets too large. Or not.

[Rice]

A poorly run PNP camp is not really much different than a so-called normal poorly run camp. Unprepared, clueless people can be rich or poor...

Either you contribute in some way, or you don't. Embrace the so-called principles or not. Some people will never get it - it is that simple.

[Lonesomebri]

Here is where I get confused. There are over 13 threads discussing it, yet people act like there is some sort of concerted effort to shut down discussion...
The "shut up or go away" posts I'm seeing from people who are fuming over the turnkey camps are much more troubling to me than the fact not everyone agrees. If someone disagrees it doesn't mean they're an idiot, or a lackey, or a cultist. It means they don't agree with you. Seriously, if it was just a group of people sitting around agreeing with each-other it would be a circle-jerk, not a discussion.

13? Of course there are more than 13 Anti-Black Rock Hotel threads going. Have you people learned nothing about how this game is played?

Any doubt cast at the Anti-Hotel faction can be rounded up, exaggerated, inflated and convoluted. No problem, ha ha. That is a joke.

Meanwhile, any Anti-Hotel message had better include independent confirmation, a variety of credible sources, documentation, a confession or two, photos, first hand accounts, and most importantly an air-tight solution already agreed upon by all participants. Short of that, or even including it, you’re still just a troublemaker. Get off of Hotel Black Rocks lawn!!!

Of course, providing info will solve nothing, as the Pro-Hotel faction will then ask questions, endless questions, to which they don’t want an answer. They ask, the question is answered, then the Pro-Hotel faction ignores the answer, they act as if the question was never even asked, and they move on to the next question, without ever acknowledging even in their own head that the question they seemed to think so important was answered for them. Why don’t they ever address the answer to their question? It’s as if they expect more respect from the Anti-Hotel faction than they give their very own intellect. The Pro-Hotel faction will ignore that they asked a particular question, then ignore the answer, then move on to another question they aren’t really interested in, demanding an answer, calling “bull shit”. This way they can act like they are frustrated and confused, they have so many questions…. Why won’t the anti-Hotel faction answer? Then the Anti-hotel faction will be accused by the Pro-Hotel gang of being bullies, shutting down the discussion (even though they control the forum?!?), whatever, while the Anti-Hotel faction are the only ones trying to keep open debate alive. And these Pro-Hotel cadets are just the knee-jerk conformist bending to the winds of power and influence as their conscious dictates, it isn’t even the parasites feeding off the Black Rock Hotels. We can only imagine how conniving and cut-throat the Hotel operators are.

13? Sounds about right.