Vegan Cafe

samtzu · Post by **samtzu** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:40 pm

Duck rocks... it's like chicken that has gone wild... which is exactly what it is...

ummmm.... the venison of the fowl persuasion?

Donita · Post by **Donita** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:43 pm

I am imagining duck boobies right now and giggling my ass off. tee hee!!

gigglesnort · Post by **gigglesnort** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 7:00 pm

hee! I thought about that as I typed it......

Rian Jackson · Post by **Rian Jackson** » Tue Feb 08, 2005 7:54 am

There are theories that say that humans were originally vegetarians and evolved into omnivores. FTR, no I don't have a cite 'cause i read it years a-fucking-go, and i don't care enough to find one. It could be a load of bunk.

Donita, being vegan is, i hear, really really hard. And part of eating healthily with any lifestyle is listening to your body's cravings - they're there for a reason. I'm veggie (not vegan, though) and i think i manage pretty well. I try to be intelligent about getting protein (eggs, tofu, beans, etc). The best way I know when i need it? When i start getting a weird craving for an omlette. It seems to work pretty well.

If you wanna do a vegetarian or vegan thing well, you should learn about proteins and such (there are a lot of foods that, if you combine them, together make a protein) so you can make intelligent choices rather than just 'not eating meat.'

You'd also want to make sure you're getting all the vitamins and minerals you need, and enough energy (this is why living on lettuce doesn't work) to keep your immune system in gear. Lots of vegans, in particular, get pretty sickly. If I were to hazard a guess, i'd say that a lot of GPs would recommend vitamin supplements if you're doing veggie-ism. Oh, and iron is really important. Tons of American women are anemic anyway, and the numbers tend to be higher in the veg head crowd. Spinach, anyone?

Note: I'm a bad example of this. I just eat stuff. But it seems to work ok for me.

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Tue Feb 08, 2005 8:28 am

Rian Jackson wrote:There are theories that say that humans were originally vegetarians and evolved into omnivores. FTR, no I don't have a cite 'cause i read it years a-fucking-go, and i don't care enough to find one. It could be a load of bunk.

Its possible, but it would have had to be before we became ape-like. The tip off is the front facing eyes. Herbivores have eyes on both sides of their head in order to get a wider view in case of predators. Carnivores (or omnivores) have front facing eyes so that they can triangulate on their prey. Plus the whole incisors thing, but those could have evolved in at a later date.

Rian Jackson · Post by **Rian Jackson** » Tue Feb 08, 2005 8:36 am

Makes sense. I think it might have had something to do with teeth and stomachs and such. But like I said, i read it ages ago, and it didn't really matter.

It has been noted (again, no cites) that meats and other animal products are some of the hardest things to digest. I wonder, if we stopped eating, say, grains, if we'd also begin to lose the enzymes to digest them, as one does with meat.

Speaking of which, I was reading a long lost friend's lj (you know her, Guin) and there was something about eating meat again for the first time - on an airplane.

*shudder*

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:47 am

killer migraine that lasted 4 fucking miserable days

my people call that malnutrition.

Our big fatty brains require lots of fatty protein to maintain. We never would have evolved this big brain case if we were only eating grains. Now, modern nutrition and agriculture allows for the maintanance of our bodies and their protein needs via non animal flesh but if we were hunting/scavenging/gathering on the savanna and went veg (eliminating the hunting/scavenging part basically) we would become sickly and then die.

Eating fish does not, strictly, make you a veg. I have heard this referred to as pescatarian.

Rian Jackson · Post by **Rian Jackson** » Tue Feb 08, 2005 3:48 pm

''[Tofu is] an ancient thing...it's been around for six thousand years, a long time. Fofu has a very, very bland taste....but it's cheap, and ounce for ounce, it's got more protein than beef....

"Every night we soak around two thousand pounds dry weight of soy beans, which translates to maybe eight thousand pounds wet. We leave them overnight, let them swell, then we wet-grind them, and then we steam-cook them. After the cooking, we extract the soy milk, add calcium sulfate to coagulate it, and from there we put it in molds, cut it up, and put it under a hydraulic press for like ten minutes. Then we cut it into little pieces and it's tofu."

David Eng, Tofu Manufacturer, in Gig

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Tue Feb 08, 2005 3:55 pm

it's been around for six thousand years

precisely what I meant by modern relative to human evolution.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 11:13 am

Donita wrote:
gigglesnort wrote:On that note, for dinner......duck breasts (at least four different species!) wrapped in bacon with garlic and the beau's special seasonings, grilled to crispy perfection. {drool}
Fuck. That sounds awesomely scrumptious, giggles. I have never eaten a duck. What does it taste like? Chicken?

Duck isn't much like chicken. It's all dark meat (ithink) and has this lovely layer of fat under the skin. Goose is nice too.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 11:15 am

Rob the Wop wrote:
Rian Jackson wrote:There are theories that say that humans were originally vegetarians and evolved into omnivores. FTR, no I don't have a cite 'cause i read it years a-fucking-go, and i don't care enough to find one. It could be a load of bunk.
Its possible, but it would have had to be before we became ape-like. The tip off is the front facing eyes. Herbivores have eyes on both sides of their head in order to get a wider view in case of predators. Carnivores (or omnivores) have front facing eyes so that they can triangulate on their prey. Plus the whole incisors thing, but those could have evolved in at a later date.

Front facing eyes came with an aboreal lifestyle--it's amazing how important depth vision is when a misstep ends in death. That being said, my guess is many to most primates opportunistically eat meat or at least insects.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 11:17 am

Rian Jackson wrote: It has been noted (again, no cites) that meats and other animal products are some of the hardest things to digest.

I wonder about this. the average carnivore gut is much shorter than the average herbivore gut. Cows have four stomachs and horses have to rely on bacteria to break down teh celluose.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 11:27 am

humans have one of the beefiest digestive tracks. We are in the minority in that we can, unlike cats, digest hair.

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 12:24 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
Rob the Wop wrote:
Rian Jackson wrote:There are theories that say that humans were originally vegetarians and evolved into omnivores. FTR, no I don't have a cite 'cause i read it years a-fucking-go, and i don't care enough to find one. It could be a load of bunk.
Its possible, but it would have had to be before we became ape-like. The tip off is the front facing eyes. Herbivores have eyes on both sides of their head in order to get a wider view in case of predators. Carnivores (or omnivores) have front facing eyes so that they can triangulate on their prey. Plus the whole incisors thing, but those could have evolved in at a later date.
Front facing eyes came with an aboreal lifestyle--it's amazing how important depth vision is when a misstep ends in death. That being said, my guess is many to most primates opportunistically eat meat or at least insects.

I thought we evolved from plains apes?

Also there are many land only carnivorous creatures that do not have side facing eyes and many herbivore birds that do. I think pretty much any creature that needs to triangulate for a reason has this ability. But there is a far greater percentage of carnivores with front facing than tree dwelling with front facing. Example, a squirrel is a herbivore tree-dwelling mammal while a bobcat is a carnivorous tree-dwelling mammal.

So I guess I'm saying is that I don't have the full answer, but the logic is as follows:
Most land-dwelling mammal carnivores have front facing eyes.
Most tree-dwelling mammal carnivores have front facing eyes.
Some tree-dwelling mammal herbivores have front facing eyes.
All primates have front facing eyes.
All humans are primates.
Some primates are tree-dwelling herbivores.
Front facing eyes are required to triangulate.
Triangulation is beneficial to carnivores.
Ergo, while I cannot conclude that humans evolved front facing eyes for the sole purpose of being a carnivore- I can state that front facing eyes may have assisted in evolving into a carnivorous state.

As to which came first- the early 'common ancestor' evolving front facing eyes to become a carnivore or to become tree-dwelling- I can only hazard a guess. Not my field. Though I do recall something about our pre-ape ancestors being scavengers land-dwelling omnivores with side facing eyes.

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 12:26 pm

stuart wrote:humans have one of the beefiest digestive tracks. We are in the minority in that we can, unlike cats, digest hair.

So I don't have to pull them from my teeth? I can just swallow them? Damn... I wish I would have known this fact earlier on in life.

"No really dear, it's healthy. You can digest that..."

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 12:37 pm

we absolutely have arboreal ancestors. Take a look at your wacky ball and socket shoulders for proof.

thing is, we primates have stepped through many different habitats over the course of our evolution.

Rian Jackson · Post by **Rian Jackson** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:11 pm

so, what does it mean if I have side-facing eyes?

(actually, after Rob's little spiel (been reading that logic book again?) they're more of cross-eyes.)

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:50 pm

Rob the Wop wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote:
Rob the Wop wrote: Its possible, but it would have had to be before we became ape-like. The tip off is the front facing eyes. Herbivores have eyes on both sides of their head in order to get a wider view in case of predators. Carnivores (or omnivores) have front facing eyes so that they can triangulate on their prey. Plus the whole incisors thing, but those could have evolved in at a later date.
Front facing eyes came with an aboreal lifestyle--it's amazing how important depth vision is when a misstep ends in death. That being said, my guess is many to most primates opportunistically eat meat or at least insects.
I thought we evolved from plains apes?

Also there are many land only carnivorous creatures that do not have side facing eyes and many herbivore birds that do. I think pretty much any creature that needs to triangulate for a reason has this ability. But there is a far greater percentage of carnivores with front facing than tree dwelling with front facing. Example, a squirrel is a herbivore tree-dwelling mammal while a bobcat is a carnivorous tree-dwelling mammal.

So I guess I'm saying is that I don't have the full answer, but the logic is as follows:
Most land-dwelling mammal carnivores have front facing eyes.
Most tree-dwelling mammal carnivores have front facing eyes.
Some tree-dwelling mammal herbivores have front facing eyes.
All primates have front facing eyes.
All humans are primates.
Some primates are tree-dwelling herbivores.
Front facing eyes are required to triangulate.
Triangulation is beneficial to carnivores.
Ergo, while I cannot conclude that humans evolved front facing eyes for the sole purpose of being a carnivore- I can state that front facing eyes may have assisted in evolving into a carnivorous state.

As to which came first- the early 'common ancestor' evolving front facing eyes to become a carnivore or to become tree-dwelling- I can only hazard a guess. Not my field. Though I do recall something about our pre-ape ancestors being scavengers land-dwelling omnivores with side facing eyes.

I think the front facing came first. Primates were nocternal insectavores with front facing eyes. Later we began to eat fruit in the day time--color vision. Then we got out of the trees and onto the savanna--and it all gets very controversial. I suspect we were always opportunistic carnivores, but the best data on chimps and bonobos and the best data on hunter gatherers may indicate that plants were always the staples of our diets, while meat was definately a treat and pretige food.

Rian Jackson · Post by **Rian Jackson** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:55 pm

but the best data on bonobos

...is that they have a lot of recreational sex.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:06 pm

do bonobos disguise ovulation as humans do?

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:08 pm

Rian Jackson wrote:
but the best data on bonobos
...is that they have a lot of recreational sex.

Which makes me much happier to claim them as cousins than those rowdy, loutish chimps.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:09 pm

stuart wrote:do bonobos disguise ovulation as humans do?

Not sure. Remember, they are much less studied than chimps.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:22 pm

stuart wrote:humans have one of the beefiest digestive tracks. We are in the minority in that we can, unlike cats, digest hair.

Are you telling me that cows, beef cows anyway, can digest hair?

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:24 pm

it takes near zero studying to determine that. I believe we are the only primates to disguise ovulation. As a result, it would be dangerous to make any claims about our natural sexual practices based on bonobos.

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:28 pm

stuart wrote:it takes near zero studying to determine that. I believe we are the only primates to disguise ovulation. As a result, it would be dangerous to make any claims about our natural sexual practices based on bonobos.

So the question remains.
If I have sex with a bonobo, do I have to disguise it?
Sorry, that's all I took out of skimming the last dozen posts.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:29 pm

depends on the county and the age of the bonobo in question

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:31 pm

which brings up a tangent

I find it odd that it's legal to pay two (or more) people to have sex in front of a camera but not legal to pay someone for sex.

So, I guess if you paid the bonobo for sex outside of a few counties in NV you would want to disguise it as well.

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:32 pm

unless you filmed it, that is.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:33 pm

Lemurs are considered to be close to the ancestral form of monkeys. Look at those forward facing binocular vision eye.

Pottos--sap eating (suppliemented by bugs and fruit) and nocturnal. May be more like ancestral monkeys. (the class started off shrewlike, but didn't all the placentals?)

Rian Jackson · Post by **Rian Jackson** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:34 pm

who was saying anything about bonobos having secual practices that correlate to ours, necessarily?

it's just shit that i remember from an anthro video.