will Arnold let Tookie live?

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Simply Joel
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Post by Simply Joel » Mon Jan 16, 2006 1:21 pm

summary? i think it goes something like this:

death penalty... bad.

sitting in your cell, consulting with your lawyer and freinds, eating three square meals per day... good.
Democrats... snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, daily!


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Post by HughMungus » Mon Jan 16, 2006 1:28 pm

Kinetic IV wrote:So how does a deaf and blind man direct killings? Does he write out the orders? Does he call on the phone and say Hey Sal, I need you to whack so and so? Does he type out the orders on a braille typewriter and dispatch them like Western Union telegraphs back in the day?

I won't argue about what he did in the past...but in his current state he's not able to do very much. Killing him serves what purpose now? If it's punishment they want then leaving him to suffer with his infirmities and the degrading experiences that come with that would be more effective.
It says to the world, "If you act like an animal, you will be treated like one." That is one of the strongest arguments FOR the death penalty -- being removed from humanity and being put into the same class as rabid dogs (even worse than that since you've CHOSEN to behave that way). Can you imagine anything worse than the rest of humanity treating you like an animal and dealing with you accordingly?

Regarding the timing -- he's being put to death now simple because of appeals. His death will be especially powerful because he obviously WANTS to live.

A suggestion to all the anti-death penalty crowd: if you really want to see an end to people being executed by the state, take all that time and energy you put into your current cause and shift it to advocating for the availability of cheap(er) mental healthcare. We have the same problem with homeless in my neighborhood -- a bunch of dumbshits feeding the homeless and enabling them to stay on the street when what they really need is mental healthcare and drug treatment. Attack the causes, not the symptoms.
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Post by Kinetic IV » Mon Jan 16, 2006 1:34 pm

Cheaper mental healthcare will eventually become psychoactive drugs for all. It's cheaper to make a pill than pay a therapist or bring in any factor that involves a human being providing the care. So...with that in mind be careful what you wish for....you could get it.
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Post by lazarus » Mon Jan 16, 2006 1:59 pm

Another, will you bleding hearts fight for him?

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/us/death_penalty

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Post by lurker » Mon Jan 16, 2006 2:04 pm

I can't help but think of the victims. Where are the vigils for them? What celebrities hold press conferences to call attention to the wrongs that were done to them

They got no appeal. No lawyers. No one appealed on behalf of their spouses, partners or children--oh wait, maybe someone did.

Maybe they begged for their lives. Maybe they cried. Maybe thay said they'd do aything only please don't kill me. Maybe they talked about their loves or their kids in those last few seconds..

Before the bullet hit. Or the knife went in. Or their neck snapped. Or whatever their killer used to take their lives.

No one gave them years of appeals. No one cared one whit about their comfort or opinion.

Each day a murderer lives is a day stolen from a victim. A day whose joy was ripped asunder. A day whose happiness has been replaced with tears.

Why should they get clemency? Because they grew old on Death Row? Because they found Jesus? Because they're truly sorry?

But their victims are still dead.

Do you know what the murderers are doing when they find Jesus? Or repent? Or cry infirmity? They're pleading. Just like their victims did, so long ago. They're looking for the right words, the words that will get us to let them keep living. The words they ignored when they were handing out death.

Listen closely and you will hear the echoes of the dead, the victims screaming for their lives, asking, begging this newly repented sinner to spare them. And he said 'no' and stole their lives.
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Post by HughMungus » Mon Jan 16, 2006 3:08 pm

Kinetic IV wrote:Cheaper mental healthcare will eventually become psychoactive drugs for all. It's cheaper to make a pill than pay a therapist or bring in any factor that involves a human being providing the care. So...with that in mind be careful what you wish for....you could get it.
It's cheaper to pay for pills than to deal with all the social and legal consequences of someone not being treated. You do know that most cases of mental disorder are chemical and treatable with some balancing chemicals, right? Like I said, the key to fixing problems is to treat the cause (chemical imbalances and/or emotional problems) vs. treating the symptoms (feeding the homeless and trials/prison/executions).
It's what you make it.

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Post by Kinetic IV » Mon Jan 16, 2006 4:27 pm

I'm VERY biased on part of this subject as I'm keenly aware of the chemical imbalance issues. And I also know what happens when the doctors get it wrong...in fact some of my prior posts back in the day on this board and others are hardcore proof of what happens. It's one thing to want to help when the science is nailed down and the doctors know what they're doing. But SSRI's and how they work are not fully known and that's where the problems begin. I'll illustrate my point with this tidbit straight off the Wellbutrin XL prescribing guide sheet:

CLINICAL PHARMACOLOGY
Pharmacodynamics: Bupropion is a relatively weak inhibitor of the neuronal uptake of norepinephrine, serotonin, and dopamine, and does not inhibit monoamine oxidase. While the mechanism of action of bupropion, as with other antidepressants, is unknown, it is presumed that this action is mediated by noradrenergic and/or dopaminergic mechanisms.


Cite: http://us.gsk.com/products/assets/us_wellbutrinXL.pdf

Again... presumed but not known, and with the list of known side effects already being pretty long this is not the most confidence inspiring thing going and this is just one of the common drugs, there are others with similar statements in their prescribing info sheets.

So you want to treat the causes? That seems to in the end fall on the government to treat the hard core cases and they're going to look at this in the Excel spreadsheet way, ie: the numbers game. Emotional health will be lucky to get funding, pills are cheaper and so to treat the cause of the chemical imbalance...which may be caused by dietary or environmental factors we're not aware of it's going to be easy to toss someone some of these questionable pills and hope for the best....

damn I'm off on a bad tangent but IMHO there's as much danger in being "treated" as there is in not doing anything. That's the point I wanted to get across.

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Post by EvilDustBooger » Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:01 am

Kinetic IV wrote:it's going to be easy to toss someone some of these questionable pills and hope for the best....

damn I'm off on a bad tangent but IMHO there's as much danger in being "treated" as there is in not doing anything. That's the point I wanted to get across.
Those are excellent points.

And they deserve serious discussion.
This nations mental health issues are far from being dealt with adequately. It is a confusing, annoying almost baffling topic.
An overwhelming mix of personal rights, individual responsibilities, politics, families, agencies, laws, institutions...every bit as complicated
and intense as the capital punishment debate.
I don`t have a clue as to what the answer is, but throwing pills at patients
and money at the federal government is not the answer....

....now back to the killing and maiming....

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Post by Kinetic IV » Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:23 am

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f ... OHD715.DTL

It seems that someone wasn't as deaf and especially as blind or helpless as media portrayals suggested.

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Post by DVD Burner » Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:17 pm

BWWWWAAAAA HA HA HA HA!


This guy was full of shit the entire time?


That was a good read.



Thanks.

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Post by cowboyangel » Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:29 pm

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believe is false."- William Casey, CIA Director 1981

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Post by HughMungus » Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:31 pm

EvilDustBooger wrote:but throwing pills at patients
and money at the federal government is not the answer....
If someone has a chemical imbalance, it is the answer. No amount of therapy and welfare will fix a chemical imbalance.
It's what you make it.

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Post by BigCock » Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:36 pm

Kinetic IV wrote:http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f ... OHD715.DTL

It seems that someone wasn't as deaf and especially as blind or helpless as media portrayals suggested.
I'm sorry man. I checked around, heard from eye witnesses. That chron story was bullshit.

Whatever. It doesn't matter if the guy was a pathetic cripple or not, he shouldn't have been killed.

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Post by DVD Burner » Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:44 pm

BigCock wrote: I'm sorry man. I checked around, heard from eye witnesses. That chron story was bullshit.

kron full of shit???

You’re kidding right?


They are the best news org in s.f. That's why they are still on the air despite NBC abandoning it. :lol:
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Post by Kinetic IV » Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:49 pm

If someone has a chemical imbalance, it is the answer. No amount of therapy and welfare will fix a chemical imbalance.
I agree that no amount of welfare and therapy will fix a chemical imbalance. But let me tell you something. One of the fastest descents into hell can come from taking one of Big Pharma's wonders. And having been there and dealt with that I have to come out strongly against any idea that promotes throwing those bastardized chemical cocktails at people thinking it's the ultimate answer. It's not.
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Post by HughMungus » Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:05 am

Kinetic IV wrote:
If someone has a chemical imbalance, it is the answer. No amount of therapy and welfare will fix a chemical imbalance.
I agree that no amount of welfare and therapy will fix a chemical imbalance. But let me tell you something. One of the fastest descents into hell can come from taking one of Big Pharma's wonders. And having been there and dealt with that I have to come out strongly against any idea that promotes throwing those bastardized chemical cocktails at people thinking it's the ultimate answer. It's not.
It didn't work for you. That doesn't mean it wouldn't work for others. If someone is homeless or a homicidal maniac I doubt there is much further into hell you can go.

I had an argument with my father once. We were watching the news and he was bitching about crime and said, "Why don't they keep those god damn people in jail," to which I said, "Because people don't want to pay higher taxes to build more jails." I added: "You know, dad, it's cheaper to prevent people from becoming criminals than for society to have to deal with the consequences of people becoming criminals becase they think they have no other options to get all the bling bling they see on TV and magazines so why don't you start campaigning to have more jails built and I'll continue to advocate for things like Head Start and mental healthcare. I'll attack the front-end of the problem and you attack the back-end of the problem and we'll see what's more effective in reducing crime."

All you anti-death penalty people really need to ask yourselves if you're spending your valuable time attacking the front-end of the problem or the back-end. Then, when someone IS executed you can say to yourself with some satisfaction, "I did what I could."
It's what you make it.

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Post by EvilDustBooger » Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:26 am

HughMungus wrote:
EvilDustBooger wrote:but throwing pills at patients
and money at the federal government is not the answer....
If someone has a chemical imbalance, it is the answer. No amount of therapy and welfare will fix a chemical imbalance.
True. A little lithium can go a long way sometimes.

My concern, after having a few episodes with mentally ill people, is there are no uniform proceedures for seeing to it that they get help.
It is always the persons family that is burdened with caring for and seeing to a mentally ill persons needs. Quite often these relations are strained to
the breaking point, already broken or family members are afraid to make critical decisions about seeking psychiatric care for disturbed family members - in effect giving all the "power" to the mentally debilitated person who doesn`t have the clarity or resources to take care of staying clean, let alone make decisions about seeking care....therapy, drugs, whatever .
Police have their hands tied. All they can do with an obviously deranged person is hospitalize them for observation for a limited time (72hrs in most places)
or incarceration if they have commited a crime or it is apparent they pose a physical danger to themselves or others. Quite often, they get back on meds, stop the delusions, inform doctors everythings fine...in a few days check out, and go do it all over again....
Quite a puzzle. Solve it and it would be a windfall for social security, families, and society in general.
IMHO
I don`t see some federal fund sucking agency doing much about it other than burn valuable funding.
It`s up to society in general. And lawmakers in particular.

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Post by joel the ornery » Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:09 am

Where is the moral outrage?

I guess it is reserved for California inmates.

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Post by Kinetic IV » Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:22 am

joel the ornery wrote:Where is the moral outrage?

I guess it is reserved for California inmates.
ITYM: It's reserved for "High profile, celebrity, or media hyped cases". The outrage is there but some choose to concentrate their efforts on local cases where one has a slightly higher statistical chance of influencing the outcome. The key words there are slightly and statistical....because much of the time when this stuff gets rolling there's little common folks can do to stop it.
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Post by Simply Joel » Fri Jan 27, 2006 6:18 am

everything is cooler in california.

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Post by DVD Burner » Fri Jan 27, 2006 4:38 pm

WHAAAAAT!


Ken has gotta be kidding. Joel must be loving this.

:lol:

Starr aims to save life of Morales


Ex-Whitewater counsel seeks clemency for killer of Lodi girl
By Associated Press
First published: Friday, January 27, 2006
Last updated: Friday, Jan 27, 2006 - 06:59:39 am PST
SAN FRANCISCO — Former Whitewater independent counsel Kenneth Starr is stepping in to try to spare a California condemned inmate from being executed Feb. 21, the American Civil Liberties Union said Thursday.

Starr, who is currently the dean at Pepperdine University law school, is helping draft inmate Michael Morales' petition for clemency that Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger said must be submitted today.

Starr, a former federal appeals judge and solicitor general, will urge Schwarzenegger, who has never granted clemency, to commute Morales' term to life without parole.

Morales, 46, was convicted and sentenced to death for raping and murdering a 17-year-old Lodi girl found in a vineyard 25 years ago.

Since December, Schwarzenegger has denied two requests for clemency. Stanley "Tookie" Williams, founder of the Crips gang, was executed in December, and Fresno multiple-murderer Clarence Ray Allen was executed Jan 10.

If executed, Morales would become the first San Joaquin County resident to be executed since California resumed executions in 1979.

As in all California executions, the Feb. 21 death would likely happen at 12:01 a.m. in front of pre-approved witnesses including media members, attorneys and relatives of the defendant and victim.

News-Sentinel staff contributed to this report.
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Post by cowboyangel » Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:31 pm

I'll be there with the other good people, live streaming the protest starting at 8 pm pacific. DVD come on out, we can share coffee and talk about networks, and stuff...come on, drag your sorry ass to the wonderfully charming gates of San Quentin prison......
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believe is false."- William Casey, CIA Director 1981

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Post by HughMungus » Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:54 am

cowboyangel wrote:I'll be there with the other good people, live streaming the protest starting at 8 pm pacific. DVD come on out, we can share coffee and talk about networks, and stuff...come on, drag your sorry ass to the wonderfully charming gates of San Quentin prison......
CA, just curious, what are you doing to address the front-end of the problem (fixing the conditions to prevent people from becoming homicidal in the first place)? Anything?
It's what you make it.

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Post by cowboyangel » Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:48 am

HughMungus wrote:
cowboyangel wrote:I'll be there with the other good people, live streaming the protest starting at 8 pm pacific. DVD come on out, we can share coffee and talk about networks, and stuff...come on, drag your sorry ass to the wonderfully charming gates of San Quentin prison......
CA, just curious, what are you doing to address the front-end of the problem (fixing the conditions to prevent people from becoming homicidal in the first place)? Anything?
I do alot of volunteer work in my community with church groups. Most importantly, I raised two boys who are now grown men and are wonderful, intelligent, productive law abiding citizens....and you?
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believe is false."- William Casey, CIA Director 1981

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Post by OCCAM'S SLEDGE-O-MATIC » Sun Jan 29, 2006 3:40 am

There are many arguments for and against the death penalty, but I don't think you can use the one that says it's a deterrent, unless you can show me some gang-bangers or criminals a WHOLE bunch smarter than the ones I've seen so far in my life.

Most of these tards don't plan farther than their next bowel movement, so the threat of death in 25 years or so (via painless injection when they face violent death every day) after they exhaust their appeals is not a huge threat/deterrent to them to make them want to walk the straight and narrow.

The problem is that just being in jail, as horrible as that is, is just not seen as punishment enough for killing innocent people.

The reason that it is not is because people have been victimized and intimidated by criminals, so when they get the chance to get revenge on one safely, there is little doubt in my mind they will take the opportunity.

Now a real solution and a real deterrent would be to be able to sentence Tookie to a lifetime of begging for his life like his victims did.

And televising it as a reality show so potential gangbangers could see his bitch ass getting punked and him squealing and crying and begging for mercy.

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Post by Magikal » Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:34 am

OCCAM'S SLEDGE-O-MATIC wrote:Now a real solution and a real deterrent would be to be able to sentence Tookie to a lifetime of begging for his life like his victims did.

And televising it as a reality show so potential gangbangers could see his bitch ass getting punked and him squealing and crying and begging for mercy.
Now THAT'S a great idea!!! :D :D :D Sort of like the Roman colosseum. Not enough drama, tho. Televised hangings would be good. Tho you could say that technically, he did beg, altho thru his lawyers.

Cool name, by-the-by, Occam's razor being a recurrent theme in Heinlein books. Welcome to the forum.
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Post by OCCAM'S SLEDGE-O-MATIC » Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:26 pm

[quote="Magikal"]you could say that technically, he did beg, altho thru his lawyers.[/quote]

Feh. Not nearly visceral enough to be worth the comparison, though I see your point.

Even to the end, his pride would not let him personally beg for mercy, acknowledge the pain he caused, or even apologize, if not for killing his victims, then for founding the crips, something he's never disputed.

When I say I would like to see him beg, I mean on his knees, facing a cold-blooded killer (like he was) who is enjoying the power he has over him before he inflicts his pain.

Then it's equivalent.

Then it would have a deterrent effect, if people see concrete proof that the evil that they do will be returned in full measure and then some.

If current gangbangers were faced with state-sanctioned gang rape (that would also be televised for everyone they know to see) and abuse by burly inmates for their crimes, you'd see a whole lot less murder.

Threatening to put them painlessly to sleep 30 or 40 YEARS down the road won't ever even make them blink.

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Post by DVD Burner » Sat Feb 11, 2006 6:38 pm

Ok,

so Kenneth Star is a true crook and liar to boot after all:



Jury Letters Asking to Save Morales Faked

By DAVID KRAVETS
The Associated Press


SAN FRANCISCO —

Lawyers for a death row inmate, including former Whitewater independent counsel Kenneth Starr, sent fake letters from jurors asking California's governor to spare the man's life, prosecutors said Friday.

The jurors denied they thought Michael Morales deserved clemency because some of the testimony at his trial may have been fabricated, said Nathan Barankin, spokesman for Attorney General Bill Lockyer.

"We showed each person the declaration on their behalf and they all said they didn't say that," Barankin said.

San Joaquin County prosecutor Charles Schultz also said the letters sent to Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger last week were "untrue" and "pure fiction."

Starr was not immediately available for comment, said a spokeswoman for the Pepperdine School of Law, where Starr is the dean.

Morales' other clemency attorney, David Senior from Los Angeles, said he stood by the validity of the six sworn statements he and Starr sent to the governor. He suggested that the jurors might have gotten cold feet when they were contacted by prosecutors in the last two days.

"When the D.A. and A.G. show up with badges and guns and say whatever, they can intimidate a lot of people and that's their game," Senior said.

On Friday, the San Joaquin District Attorney's office sent Schwarzenegger a new batch of sworn statements from five of those jurors saying they not only still supported capital punishment for Morales, but had never spoken with the defense investigator who claimed to have secured their signatures.

Kathleen Culhane, the San Francisco private investigator who Starr and Senior said had interviewed the jurors, declined to comment.
None of the five jurors involved in the legal tug-of-war, whose names were blacked out of the competing clemency documents to protect their privacy, could immediately be reached for comment.

Morales is scheduled to be executed Feb. 21 for the rape and murder of a 17-year-old girl in San Joaquin County 25 years ago.

Schwarzenegger spokeswoman Margita Thompson declined to address the dispute, saying only that the governor, when deciding on clemency, will consider "all the information that is provided to him when making the decision."

___

Associated Press Writer Lisa Leff in San Francisco contributed to this report.
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Post by HughMungus » Mon Feb 13, 2006 6:26 pm

cowboyangel wrote:
HughMungus wrote:
cowboyangel wrote:I'll be there with the other good people, live streaming the protest starting at 8 pm pacific. DVD come on out, we can share coffee and talk about networks, and stuff...come on, drag your sorry ass to the wonderfully charming gates of San Quentin prison......
CA, just curious, what are you doing to address the front-end of the problem (fixing the conditions to prevent people from becoming homicidal in the first place)? Anything?
I do alot of volunteer work in my community with church groups. Most importantly, I raised two boys who are now grown men and are wonderful, intelligent, productive law abiding citizens....and you?
I asked you a specific question: what are you doing to address the front-end of the problem (fixing the conditions to prevent people from becoming homicidal in the first place)?

?
It's what you make it.

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Post by cowboyangel » Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:22 pm

I told you and what are doing?
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