A friend thinks his wife wouldn't enjoy going to Burning Man. I already know she wouldn't. I came up with this list--got any additions?
My absolute must-have criteria for enjoying the experience:
• You like to camp, and think camping for a week in a big, filthy parking lot sounds like a fun adventure.
• You are not distressed by being surrounded by people with alternative lifestyles.
• You have no problem sleeping on a hard surface in 24-7 noise.
• You don't mind dust so thick it causes white-outs. In fact you're upset if that doesn't happen at least once because you enjoy purposely going out in those conditions.
• You're indifferent to working hard outdoors in 120°F heat.
• You're flexible regarding changes of plan.
• You enjoy art. A lot.
• You have a very open mind.
• You won't think your trip is spoiled if it freezes, blows, or rains.
• You won't think your trip is spoiled if a number of scheduled events fall through for no apparent reason.
• You're indifferent to not being able to shower or change clothes for a week when working outdoors.
B.Man Experience Compatibility Criteria
Control freaks need not apply.
People who are psychologically dependent on small beeping consumer electronic devices (cell phones, PDAs, et cetera) also need not apply.
Couples should stay home, unless one partner has attended before. There are exceptions, but not many. Send your luvah alone one year, or go yourself, and then decide whether you can cope with the experience as a unit. I've camped with some real dipshits in my day, and by far the most aggravating dipshits were the neurotic newbie couple who fought the whole week and kept crying and yelling and breaking up and getting back together and whining to everyone who would sit still for it and after awhile Newbie Jerky started sounding like it was What's For Dinner.
For that matter... whiners in general need not apply.
If you are not comfortable unless you are the center of attention all the time, just fuhgettaboutit.
PJ's list is a great one. I find that people who suffer from only one or two of those conditions can acclimate pretty well, or find workable solutions. However, I think that if the potential attendee can check three or more items on that list, s/he should stay home and avoid driving the rest of us up the wall.
People who are psychologically dependent on small beeping consumer electronic devices (cell phones, PDAs, et cetera) also need not apply.
Couples should stay home, unless one partner has attended before. There are exceptions, but not many. Send your luvah alone one year, or go yourself, and then decide whether you can cope with the experience as a unit. I've camped with some real dipshits in my day, and by far the most aggravating dipshits were the neurotic newbie couple who fought the whole week and kept crying and yelling and breaking up and getting back together and whining to everyone who would sit still for it and after awhile Newbie Jerky started sounding like it was What's For Dinner.
For that matter... whiners in general need not apply.
If you are not comfortable unless you are the center of attention all the time, just fuhgettaboutit.
PJ's list is a great one. I find that people who suffer from only one or two of those conditions can acclimate pretty well, or find workable solutions. However, I think that if the potential attendee can check three or more items on that list, s/he should stay home and avoid driving the rest of us up the wall.
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TestesInSac
- Posts: 451
- Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 8:04 pm
You plan on doing all the work yourself, and if you get help, great.PJ wrote:I'm thinking that my list was skewed by my tendency to camp alone, not with a group. The list probably needs something regarding teamwork slackers.
You don't really feel any urge to pound rebar through any slacker's melon, even if they're giving you advice.
Slackers that bring beer to you aren't slackers.
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Kinetic
You can handle 120 bpm+ techno coming from 4 different sources at 4 am with beats so loud that even earplugs only dull the throbbing noise.
You are open minded enough to accept nudity, mixed drinks that might have more mixed into them than you expected, and possible drug use of all kinds that is kept discreet but there if you pay attention to such things.
You are open minded enough to accept nudity, mixed drinks that might have more mixed into them than you expected, and possible drug use of all kinds that is kept discreet but there if you pay attention to such things.
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Lydia Love
- Posts: 1566
- Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2003 8:01 pm
- Location: Seattle
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Kinetic
Not everyone's going to be fun, but agreeable would be nice. We're all going to be grumbling if we're riding out the second hour of a dust storm like we had on that last Sunday for example. And I wouldn't want the Temple of Atonement people to be fun, I want them serious!antrony wrote:how about adding
fun to be with
as a criteria
...otherwise why would you invite/encourage them to come at all?
Of course another beer seemed to take care of that problem during the dust storm. And another beer sounds good right about now.
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Borris
- Posts: 276
- Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2003 11:10 pm
- Burning Since: 2003
- Camp Name: DPW
- Location: East Bay
Hey I'm a control Freak, had no problems with it, was i total control af the entire event.clandyone wrote:Control freaks need not apply.
except for that drunk night at the Eplaya m&g, and that time when i was..... oh and maybee the night of the burn, i think i really lost it then.
Shit, where was i for the last week... ehm...
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analog girl
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:07 pm
- Location: Austin, Texas
Great list, PJ. My best friend refuses to go because she says it would drive her nuts to have dirty hair--playahead has become one of my major reasons for going.
Concerning couples . . . my husband and I have attended all four of our years together. I can't imagine the experience without him. It's a time for us to reconnect and truly experience each other in ways we can't in a world of work and friends and telephones and family and and and . . .
While most of our burn week is spent floating in hunky dorey bliss, every year we have at least one good brawl which disappears as quickly as it came and serves to release a year of blame-free, pent-up, real-world frustration. The way we see it, a major part of our Burn is about bringing out the best and the worst and looking at it and experiencing it and releasing it (and f*cking alot).
We've met alot of people who go alone, leaving hubby or wife or someone behind, and find themselves having intense sexual and nonsexual experiences with others that leave them feeling bad and confused about whether or not to fess up when they get home. For us, burning man is about finding truth. Any experience that would result in a lie in the "real" world seems counterproductive (I, of course, mean a lie to loved ones not to coworkers and cops and such). Basically, I don't understand how someone can choose to spend a life with someone who they couldn't share burning man with. For us, burning man isn't just a vacation, it is an integral, important part of our lives. Maybe we're lucky. Maybe we're lying to ourselves. Maybe we're codependent. Maybe it would all change if we decided to have kids. Maybe maybe maybe.
As my mother used to say . . . "'To each his own' said the old lady as she kissed the cow."
Concerning couples . . . my husband and I have attended all four of our years together. I can't imagine the experience without him. It's a time for us to reconnect and truly experience each other in ways we can't in a world of work and friends and telephones and family and and and . . .
While most of our burn week is spent floating in hunky dorey bliss, every year we have at least one good brawl which disappears as quickly as it came and serves to release a year of blame-free, pent-up, real-world frustration. The way we see it, a major part of our Burn is about bringing out the best and the worst and looking at it and experiencing it and releasing it (and f*cking alot).
We've met alot of people who go alone, leaving hubby or wife or someone behind, and find themselves having intense sexual and nonsexual experiences with others that leave them feeling bad and confused about whether or not to fess up when they get home. For us, burning man is about finding truth. Any experience that would result in a lie in the "real" world seems counterproductive (I, of course, mean a lie to loved ones not to coworkers and cops and such). Basically, I don't understand how someone can choose to spend a life with someone who they couldn't share burning man with. For us, burning man isn't just a vacation, it is an integral, important part of our lives. Maybe we're lucky. Maybe we're lying to ourselves. Maybe we're codependent. Maybe it would all change if we decided to have kids. Maybe maybe maybe.
As my mother used to say . . . "'To each his own' said the old lady as she kissed the cow."
I'm gonna try not to get all Mean Eplaya here, but this
If you're going to cheat on your partner, you're no kind of partner at all, Burning Man or no Burning Man.
And back to my original point -- Burning Man is a very stressful experience that seems to be very hard on most newbie couples. Even if both parties are down, as it were, even if they are capable of enjoying Burning Man as individuals, if they are not prepared -- either through past experience or careful guidance -- the whole thing can really derail a relationship. I've seen it happen time and time and time again, and I stand by my previous assertion that squabbling couples and Burning Man are not a good fit.
I'll make a deal with you (generic.) If you're a newbie, and your partner is a newbie, and you absolutely cannot attend separately (out of fear that someone will cheat, for instance,) then camp by yourselves. That way, if you do have a meltdown, nobody else has to put up with it.
is a steaming pile. One ALWAYS has a choice about whether or not to cheat one one's partner, for heaven's sake, and I confess that I don't get the popular idea that fooling around with new acquaintances is mandatory at Burning Man. In six years of attending, even as a fairly nubile and mostly-single young thing, I didn't have any sexual contact with anyone at Burning Man. I just didn't feel like it, and it never was an issue. That hasn't got anything to do with frigidity or uptightness -- I just don't care to hop in the sack with strangers. (I lost my playa cherry this year. To my husband. On our wedding night. It was great, and significant.)We've met alot of people who go alone, leaving hubby or wife or someone behind, and find themselves having intense sexual and nonsexual experiences with others
If you're going to cheat on your partner, you're no kind of partner at all, Burning Man or no Burning Man.
And back to my original point -- Burning Man is a very stressful experience that seems to be very hard on most newbie couples. Even if both parties are down, as it were, even if they are capable of enjoying Burning Man as individuals, if they are not prepared -- either through past experience or careful guidance -- the whole thing can really derail a relationship. I've seen it happen time and time and time again, and I stand by my previous assertion that squabbling couples and Burning Man are not a good fit.
I'll make a deal with you (generic.) If you're a newbie, and your partner is a newbie, and you absolutely cannot attend separately (out of fear that someone will cheat, for instance,) then camp by yourselves. That way, if you do have a meltdown, nobody else has to put up with it.
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analog girl
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:07 pm
- Location: Austin, Texas
mmmmm . . . steam . . .
clandyone . . . I'm sorry that you've camped with some real dipshits. My husband and I have always chosen to camp alone for many reasons (this being one of them--we don't want to be on either end of that rant), so, I guess my perspective could be sort of skewed.
I wasn't saying that every single person or half-a-couple that burns alone is running around slurpin' it up at every opportunity--in fact, I now wish I had left the sex-word out of my post entirely (whine--but Badger brought it up . . . ).
Let me rephrase . . . relationships on the playa can get intense (I'm NOT talking sexually). Even the most casual encounters can seem absolutely magical. People are generally more open and generous with their emotions, energy, time, possessions, etc. and that kind of openess and community can be very difficult to describe to people who have never been. We have talked with people who were struggling with emotional guilt because they had experienced NONsexual relationships with people on the playa that went deeper in certain ways than anything they would ever feel with (or be able to explain to) their significant others.
Do I think all couples should attend together? No. Neither do I believe that couples who bicker a lot or know they have issues should subject others to their mess (on or off the playa). But, I don't think it's fair to say that the default should be not to go together. For relationships of any kind, the playa is, ideally, a place to strengthen, deepen and heal bonds. I don't think a mature, solid couple should deny themselves that kind of opportunity.
With that said . . . you speak words of great wisdom when you say that it's "stressful . . . even if both parties are down" and "if they are not prepared" and that it can "really derail a relationship". Couples should meditate on those sentiments before they decide to go together. And yes, you're right, even then they should probably camp by themselves the first year--as much for their own privacy as for the sanity of everyone within earshot.
clandyone . . . I'm sorry that you've camped with some real dipshits. My husband and I have always chosen to camp alone for many reasons (this being one of them--we don't want to be on either end of that rant), so, I guess my perspective could be sort of skewed.
I wasn't saying that every single person or half-a-couple that burns alone is running around slurpin' it up at every opportunity--in fact, I now wish I had left the sex-word out of my post entirely (whine--but Badger brought it up . . . ).
Let me rephrase . . . relationships on the playa can get intense (I'm NOT talking sexually). Even the most casual encounters can seem absolutely magical. People are generally more open and generous with their emotions, energy, time, possessions, etc. and that kind of openess and community can be very difficult to describe to people who have never been. We have talked with people who were struggling with emotional guilt because they had experienced NONsexual relationships with people on the playa that went deeper in certain ways than anything they would ever feel with (or be able to explain to) their significant others.
Do I think all couples should attend together? No. Neither do I believe that couples who bicker a lot or know they have issues should subject others to their mess (on or off the playa). But, I don't think it's fair to say that the default should be not to go together. For relationships of any kind, the playa is, ideally, a place to strengthen, deepen and heal bonds. I don't think a mature, solid couple should deny themselves that kind of opportunity.
With that said . . . you speak words of great wisdom when you say that it's "stressful . . . even if both parties are down" and "if they are not prepared" and that it can "really derail a relationship". Couples should meditate on those sentiments before they decide to go together. And yes, you're right, even then they should probably camp by themselves the first year--as much for their own privacy as for the sanity of everyone within earshot.
Well, all right... newbie couples camp by their onesies. Compromise, compromise.
Actually, most of the issues mentioned here are negated if the persnickety individual(s) in question camp by themselves. You can be a whiny, high-maintenance dirtophobe and averse to doing a lick of work and in a volatile relationship and prone to anxiety attacks if you can't get cell reception, but as long as you're not inflicting yourself on others, that's fine, IMO. As long as you pick up after your damn self.
Actually, most of the issues mentioned here are negated if the persnickety individual(s) in question camp by themselves. You can be a whiny, high-maintenance dirtophobe and averse to doing a lick of work and in a volatile relationship and prone to anxiety attacks if you can't get cell reception, but as long as you're not inflicting yourself on others, that's fine, IMO. As long as you pick up after your damn self.
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precipitate
- Posts: 746
- Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 10:51 pm
- Location: Somewhere near an ocean and a desert and a mountain
> Basically, I don't understand how someone can choose to spend a life
> with someone who they couldn't share burning man with.
I can. But not if that person had a problem with <i>me</i> going to
Burning Man, or was averse to even the idea of it.
I had a relationship that ended, in no small part, because of my partner's
extreme discomfort with the very idea that I'd hang out with <gasp>
naked people in the desert. It was a long relationship. It went through
four years of me going to the event, alone. The deciding factor wasn't
Burning Man, but I think that if we'd shared that, it would have been a
different ballgame entirely.
Even so, I can see not actually sharing the event (even with someone
who'd never been) <i>not</i> being a dealbreaker.
> You can be a whiny, high-maintenance dirtophobe
Yup. Don't bring yer shit to me. I'll make you eat it.
> with someone who they couldn't share burning man with.
I can. But not if that person had a problem with <i>me</i> going to
Burning Man, or was averse to even the idea of it.
I had a relationship that ended, in no small part, because of my partner's
extreme discomfort with the very idea that I'd hang out with <gasp>
naked people in the desert. It was a long relationship. It went through
four years of me going to the event, alone. The deciding factor wasn't
Burning Man, but I think that if we'd shared that, it would have been a
different ballgame entirely.
Even so, I can see not actually sharing the event (even with someone
who'd never been) <i>not</i> being a dealbreaker.
> You can be a whiny, high-maintenance dirtophobe
Yup. Don't bring yer shit to me. I'll make you eat it.
In my case I'd been going for years; I'd always come home from the event so hyper and upbeat that finally she decided she'd come along the next year.precipitate wrote:Even so, I can see not actually sharing the event (even with someone who'd never been) <i>not</i> being a dealbreaker.
She spent the first day feeling sick. Felt good enough to attend an event listed in the What-Where-When ("Make Your Own Poi") but when she got there it was cancelled for a lack of poi-making supplies. (They ran out on Tuesday but the event was listed as being held all week.)
Medivac'd her out on her second day there. I guess she's just not built for desert conditions, and this year's dust was extra-sucky. She's the lowest-maintenance woman I've ever known and used to camp alone; I guess she's just not into these sorts of things anymore.
She's still coughing. I'll keep you advised regarding the relationship status.
Man, I thought about your wife Saturday afternoon, PJ. She'd have been serioiusly struggling, at least if she was anywhere near I was. Good decision (hers, yours, doctor's, whoever) to get her the hell out!
I'm in agreement w/precipitate here. My wife doesn't attend--did once & didn't like it, for reasons I've reported often enough. I don't go lookin' for sex on the playa and it doesn't seem to come lookin' for me, so that's no big issue. She sometimes resents the time I spend diddling with playa-related stuff, this board in particular, but she has her own time-sinks that mean enough to her to carve out space in the schedule. It seems to work approximately OK.
Interestin' perspective on the guilt over personal contacts deeper than those in the relationship. I think that tends to happen anyway. Couples don't hafta be wrapped up in a big, impervious package together. My wife shares more of her academic side with a few similarly inclined friends than she does with me. I don't think she's read any of the haiku & some other stuff that I've shared here, some of which I feel goes pretty deep. I just can't see either of us feeling guilt over sharing those parts of ourselves with other people.
I'm in agreement w/precipitate here. My wife doesn't attend--did once & didn't like it, for reasons I've reported often enough. I don't go lookin' for sex on the playa and it doesn't seem to come lookin' for me, so that's no big issue. She sometimes resents the time I spend diddling with playa-related stuff, this board in particular, but she has her own time-sinks that mean enough to her to carve out space in the schedule. It seems to work approximately OK.
Interestin' perspective on the guilt over personal contacts deeper than those in the relationship. I think that tends to happen anyway. Couples don't hafta be wrapped up in a big, impervious package together. My wife shares more of her academic side with a few similarly inclined friends than she does with me. I don't think she's read any of the haiku & some other stuff that I've shared here, some of which I feel goes pretty deep. I just can't see either of us feeling guilt over sharing those parts of ourselves with other people.
The assumption that one's partner has to represent the alpha and omega of one's existence is, I think, the primary cause of the sky-high divorce rate in this country. You gotta diversify. Feeling guilty about making connections with people outside the relationship is just ridiculous.
I have an attractive male friend with whom I go way back. We have a very swoony, flirty, intense friendship, which is kinda fun. I know it wouldn't even occur to my husband (hi, honey) to feel threatened by this... he has intense friendships with very attractive women, himself. So what? It doesn't all have to be about fucking, and us naked apes need lots of different kinds of connections.
Isn't that a big part of why we go to Burning Man in the first place?
I have an attractive male friend with whom I go way back. We have a very swoony, flirty, intense friendship, which is kinda fun. I know it wouldn't even occur to my husband (hi, honey) to feel threatened by this... he has intense friendships with very attractive women, himself. So what? It doesn't all have to be about fucking, and us naked apes need lots of different kinds of connections.
Isn't that a big part of why we go to Burning Man in the first place?
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analog girl
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:07 pm
- Location: Austin, Texas
Very nice posts and points. I wish I had met more people out there this year who had given this issue as much thought as you folks seem to have.
I guess my statement was a little, um, all-inclusive. You think I might have just a tetch of marriage-myopia?
For some reason, this has been a pretty charged issue with me this burnyear. Maybe it's just a symptom of ending a seven-year cycle (35?!!! Should I start calling myself Analog Lady?) and feeling good about my current choices and looking back (without regret) at the time and energy spent during my years of single life and all the clues that were dropped along the way in all my doomed relationships.
The issue of couples was highlighted for us every day on the playa this year. We had many more visitors to our cozy dome this year than any other year (dunno why) and I listened to more stories and saw more evidence of emotional lonliness than ever before.
Infidelity isn't really the issue. The issue to me is that we met a lot of partnered people who went to burning man alone and found (or looked for) something they couldn't (or didn't believe they could) get if their partners were around (from another person and/or the experience as a whole).
Of the partnered people traveling alone that we met, some had kids/dogs/businesses that had to be looked after (ok, sucks to be the one that lost the toss). Some looked at burning man as a thing to share with friends rather than partners (ok, I guess, if you make that kind of distinction). Some were on passive-aggressive revenge missions (eww). Some basically said it never even occurred to them to bring their partners (what?). Few of them seemed to have put much thought into the decision.
I'm not trying to make sweeping generalizations (really). This was simply my experience this one burn (it's never really occurred to me to care before). And, again, I don't think all couples should go together. But I also think it's wrong to set the default at going alone.
I guess I would just like to see this issue treated with a little more care (um, I'll try, too). I'm pretty sure there're a few good threads on this topic trapped in the old eplaya . . . ah well . . .
I guess my statement was a little, um, all-inclusive. You think I might have just a tetch of marriage-myopia?
For some reason, this has been a pretty charged issue with me this burnyear. Maybe it's just a symptom of ending a seven-year cycle (35?!!! Should I start calling myself Analog Lady?) and feeling good about my current choices and looking back (without regret) at the time and energy spent during my years of single life and all the clues that were dropped along the way in all my doomed relationships.
The issue of couples was highlighted for us every day on the playa this year. We had many more visitors to our cozy dome this year than any other year (dunno why) and I listened to more stories and saw more evidence of emotional lonliness than ever before.
Infidelity isn't really the issue. The issue to me is that we met a lot of partnered people who went to burning man alone and found (or looked for) something they couldn't (or didn't believe they could) get if their partners were around (from another person and/or the experience as a whole).
Of the partnered people traveling alone that we met, some had kids/dogs/businesses that had to be looked after (ok, sucks to be the one that lost the toss). Some looked at burning man as a thing to share with friends rather than partners (ok, I guess, if you make that kind of distinction). Some were on passive-aggressive revenge missions (eww). Some basically said it never even occurred to them to bring their partners (what?). Few of them seemed to have put much thought into the decision.
I'm not trying to make sweeping generalizations (really). This was simply my experience this one burn (it's never really occurred to me to care before). And, again, I don't think all couples should go together. But I also think it's wrong to set the default at going alone.
I guess I would just like to see this issue treated with a little more care (um, I'll try, too). I'm pretty sure there're a few good threads on this topic trapped in the old eplaya . . . ah well . . .
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aforceforgood
- Posts: 330
- Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 8:49 pm
clandyone wrote:
...I stand by my previous assertion that squabbling couples and Burning Man are not a good fit.
Squabbling couples, like crying babies, are not welcome much of anywhere...
analog girl wrote:
all the clues that were dropped along the way in all my doomed relationships.
Sounds like a good thread starter.
...I stand by my previous assertion that squabbling couples and Burning Man are not a good fit.
Squabbling couples, like crying babies, are not welcome much of anywhere...
analog girl wrote:
all the clues that were dropped along the way in all my doomed relationships.
Sounds like a good thread starter.
You've got that right! I wonder how it is that we came to think that it was even remotely possible, let alone mandatory, to find one person who would be, at least from M-day forward, ourclandyone wrote:The assumption that one's partner has to represent the alpha and omega of one's existence is, I think, the primary cause of the sky-high divorce rate in this country. You gotta diversify.
- Perfect and only sexual partner
- Perfect and only romantic partner
- Perfect best friend
- Perfect financial partner
- Perfect co-parent
- Perfect roommate
Then we wonder why people don't feel fulfilled in their relationships, don't feel like they're getting what they need, want, or deserve. The whole system sets us up to fail: there's simply no way one person can be all of those things to another person, but the pressure to do so can be intense, as can the guilt for failing to do so.
I think we all need to give ourselves and each other a break and quit expecting any other individual human being to be the be-all and end-all of human relationships for us. As clandyone says, "us naked apes need lots of different kinds of connections."
[/soapbox]