Ho do I deal with this?? Please help

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oleg8888
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Ho do I deal with this?? Please help

Post by oleg8888 » Wed Feb 15, 2006 9:57 am

Ladies, this is a question to you, b/c you most like to have an answer to it.
Last time (prior to 2004 BM) I went through hell talking my wife (girlfriend then) in to going, she was coming up with all kind of unreasonable excuses not to go, but at the end she ended up making many diff costumes an having a blast at BM. She even confessed to me that she was wrong and she loved BM.
Last year we got married and had a beautiful baby boy. We missed 2005 BM but were ready and eager to join everyone @ 2006.
Recently our group of burners decided to build an art car - an exciting and creative event!!!
Saddenly my wife turns 180' and says that it's completely unnecessary effort and is very costly (however it will cost all of us about $100 pp - it's a very simple & inexpensive project, plus we figured ways to pay for portions of it with alternative & legal methods).
Today we had a fight about BM in general and she told me that I should be grateful that she even agreed to go. Needless to say it went no-where. I tried to reason with her but she was unreachable.
She called me an hour later with an intention to make up, but with no intention to compromise.
Result - She said she'd rather go to Paris then BM. (which would be way more expensive).
So, I am totally confused, I love Angela to death, but I have no idea how to reason with her. She is very conservative with money and doesn't spend it on junk.

PLEASE HELP. If we don't come to agreement, this will be the beginning of the end for us:(

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skygod
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Post by skygod » Wed Feb 15, 2006 10:40 am

We do a lot of Risk-Risk-Benefit analysis in my job.
There is a risk to going to BM
There is a risk to not going to BM
There is a benefit to going to BM
Add it up and decide.
I am single so dont ask me for advice hehe
"It will seem difficult in the beginning. But everything seems difficult in the beginning."- Musashi

MoisturePup
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Re: Ho do I deal with this?? Please help

Post by MoisturePup » Wed Feb 15, 2006 10:47 am

oleg8888 wrote:Ladies, this is a question to you, b/c you most like to have an answer to it.
Last time (prior to 2004 BM) I went through hell talking my wife (girlfriend then) in to going, she was coming up with all kind of unreasonable excuses not to go, but at the end she ended up making many diff costumes an having a blast at BM. She even confessed to me that she was wrong and she loved BM.
Last year we got married and had a beautiful baby boy. We missed 2005 BM but were ready and eager to join everyone @ 2006.
Recently our group of burners decided to build an art car - an exciting and creative event!!!
Saddenly my wife turns 180' and says that it's completely unnecessary effort and is very costly (however it will cost all of us about $100 pp - it's a very simple & inexpensive project, plus we figured ways to pay for portions of it with alternative & legal methods).
Today we had a fight about BM in general and she told me that I should be grateful that she even agreed to go. Needless to say it went no-where. I tried to reason with her but she was unreachable.
She called me an hour later with an intention to make up, but with no intention to compromise.
Result - She said she'd rather go to Paris then BM. (which would be way more expensive).
So, I am totally confused, I love Angela to death, but I have no idea how to reason with her. She is very conservative with money and doesn't spend it on junk.

PLEASE HELP. If we don't come to agreement, this will be the beginning of the end for us:(
Your wife is a bitch, put the baby up for adoption and get a divorce. You made a bad choice. Deal with it.

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Post by HughMungus » Wed Feb 15, 2006 10:54 am

I have a suggestion but I'm not a lady.
It's what you make it.

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BigCock
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Re: Ho do I deal with this?? Please help

Post by BigCock » Wed Feb 15, 2006 10:59 am

MoisturePup wrote:Your wife is a bitch, put the baby up for adoption and get a divorce. You made a bad choice. Deal with it.
*plonk*

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Lassen Forge
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Post by Lassen Forge » Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:00 am

How do I stick my nose into the middle of this thing? I must be f***ing crazy! (Never been known to do the sane thing before, tho...). You asked for it, tho...

So... Welcome to BB's one stop counseling session, Baba service, and absinthe bar. Serving you, Le Bleu, and saving the marriage, too, now in year #2.

Disclaimer - this is not a mamby-pamby marriage counselor. This is like the difference between a "Doctor" and a "Healer" - a Doctor sez "This may sting a little", gives you a shot, and sais "call me in the morning", a healer sez "This is gonna hurt a lot", resets your arm without anesthesia, and tells you to take it easy for a while, then get your ass back to work. If you can't handle this, you should be talking to a marriage counselor. Maybe you should do that anyway. Anyway, if you can deal with no BS advice, read on...

OK. This is what you do. She went with you to BRC against her better judgment. Sure, she had a good time, but she gave to you. Now (see below about marriage being about 2 people working together, or not - I may delete it. No guarantees) it's your turn to give to her. She wants to go to Paris? You take your wife to Paris for Memorial day. Period. Solves problem 1. Saves the marriage, makes her happy, gives you both one hell of a memory to share. (Ever been to Paris?? My guess is you'd have a f*** of a lot of fun. Maybe even more than Burning man.)

Now for problem 2. BRC. You two need to work out whether (a) you will go to BRC together, (b) you go to BRC and your wife goes elsewhere (or not), or (c) you forgo BRC altogether. This year, next year, or no year. Siddown and talk this out. No phone call, no email - face-to-face. It's just that simple.

This whole "beginning of the end" thing? Over (deleted) BURNING MAN??? Are you f***ing nuts? Yeah - throw away your marriage, leave your kid, and pay child support for the next 17 years because of a stupid EVENT?? If both of you feel this way, you both need professional counseling. If it's just you, then YOU need counseling.

So... in a nutshell. Love your wife. Compromise. Give, even if it's uneven, because you love her, not because it's "I gave $23.37, now she has to give her $23.37". Open your mind to new shit, just like she did by going to BRC with you in '04. And if she decides, naw, I'm not into it - Accept it.

There. Done with my thing... think I'll have me some o' the green fairy, then back 2 work...

baba bb

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mojo
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Post by mojo » Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:03 am

My husband and I went to BM first about 10 years ago and have not missed one since. It has become a delightful part of who we are as a couple. BUT we also went to Paris for a week over New Year's. We talked about if we had to choose only one, which would we do?

IMHO the real answer is to find the reason for the anger and her real reasons for not wanting to go. I get the feeling that there is a piece of information missing in your post. Is she having a hard time with one or more of the other burners? Jealousy? Wanting you to spend more time and/or $ with her and not with the "group"? I think there's something we're missing that makes her uncomfortable enough to forego something she has previously enjoyed.

BM can be a very difficult environment for a baby and his parents. Were you planning on taking him or leaving him at home? Either way would be much harder than what you have done before. (Travelling to Paris is not easy with a small child either.)

Whatever else happens, DON'T approach it with the "beggining of the end" mindset. It is merely an issue to use in learning how to take better care of one another. That's what's important, even if it means allowing each other to take the vacation they want alone.
Cum catapulte proscripte erunt tum soli proscripti catapultus haebunt.

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BigCock
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Post by BigCock » Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:04 am

BBSue's brilliant and right on. I'm hesitant to add anything except that there are lots of folks dealing with the same issues who have posted very thoughtful comments and ideas. Check out Jodi's thread:
http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic.php?t=12014
and in it, Bin Noddin posted a link to another thread on the same topic.
Peace and good luck.

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Rockdad
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Post by Rockdad » Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:07 am

My 2 cents:

reverse psych: Give in tell her she's right, Paris it is!

"Honey your the most Important thing in my life if that's really important to you Paris it is!"

Wait a few day's do not say another word about it let it sink into her head

Outcome?:

1.) See Ya on the Playa! with your beautiful wife

2.) See Ya on the Playa next year enjoy Paris and your wife!

No lose situation as I see it...
Eplaya Bar Camp 2006 "What will it be"

[url=http://eplayabar.blogspot.com/]The Eplaya Bar Camp Blog[/url]

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HughMungus
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Post by HughMungus » Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:09 am

Sue said it for me:

She went with you to BRC against her better judgment. Sure, she had a good time, but she gave to you. Now it's your turn to give to her. She wants to go to Paris? You take your wife to Paris for Memorial day. Period.
It's what you make it.

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Post by Chai Guy » Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:10 am

I usually find that in *most* problems, what appears to be on the surface isn't really the problem.

So what has changed? She loved Burning Man last year but now has done a complete 180. Perhaps she has an issue with the people you're working with on the art car, she does not care for one or members in that group, or maybe their is a jealousy issue there? Maybe she just dosen't like art cars, or maybe she feels like you volunteered for this project and just assumed she would too without asking her.

Granted, I'm grasping at straws here, but these are the things you need to ask yourself. I don't suggest throwing these questions at her however, at least not at first.

The first thing you need to do is reassure her that you love her and that she is more important to you than Burning Man or any stupid art car (and by the way, art cars are really stupid, imho).

Once she has that reassuarnce from you, and together you've disarmed the hostility you can begin to dialogue about the feelings behind wanting to go and not wanting to go. Perhaps the only thing holding her back is the fear that she may NEVER see Paris. If that is the case (for example) you can work out a plan to see Paris next Spring or you can skip BM this year, see Paris and return the following year. Perhaps she wants to go to Burning Man this year, but has her own idea for a project, and maybe you can support her in that idea, or maybe you end up working on separate projects.

Some people don't attend the event with their spouse, or their spouse attends every other year. That might be an option for you two as well.

Hope this helps.

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Post by SED » Wed Feb 15, 2006 9:04 pm

I got two words for ya, MP:

Burn Paris.
It ain't the hanging, it's the drop.

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Post by stargirl » Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:40 pm

oleg,
You've gotten some very wise advice here, and I'd like to add my opinion to the mix. Please take it for what it's worth to you because it may not apply at all to your situation.

Sometimes after a woman gets married and/or becomes a mother she sees herself quite differently. She takes on new priorities and sets new goals for herself. I've seen this happen with women in my life, including friends, family, and yours truly. I married at 19 and something major shifted for me. I thought I could stay the same person, but once I became "wife" I felt like I had to change and become more "domestic" and "settled".Once I unwrapped the pie making kit complete with the traditional family recipe and started receiving the Christian family magazines, I knew I wasn't in Kansas anymore (or perhaps I was!). Granted, I was strongly influenced by matriarchal family members. I wanted to be the perfect wife and future mother, so I followed the path that was laid out for me. The blue Doc Martens were shelved, the reckless friends forgotten, the Nirvana cds packed away. I jumped headfirst into my new life as superwife and found that I was a poor candidate and couldn't meet my own expectations of domestic goddess (although I did amass quite a collection of books on the subject). I'm now 29 and have been separated for 2 years. So, what this rambling post is trying to say is this: some women (not necessarily your wife!) change considerably after marriage (and baby--I don't know this from experience but have seen it happen to friends and family) and think that they have to start acting the part of "wife" and everyone has a different vision of what that should be. Some people think that with marriage and children comes the end of partying. And if a person is of the ilk who sees BM as just a big party in the desert, then this would no longer fit into his or her vision of married life and family. Let me emphasize again that some people may feel this way (I think I can safely say that most people on this board feel that BM can be quite a lovely part of marriage and family life). I agree with the wise folks who advised you to continue this conversation with your wife. Dig deeper together to find the core of what is really bothering her. Being able to talk this stuff out is far more important to a relationship than Burning Man or Paris. Good luck, hon.

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Post by MoisturePup » Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:47 am

SED wrote:I got two words for ya, MP:

Burn Paris.
Undoubtedly during the muslim riots last fall Paris was very similar to Burning Man the night of the burn.

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Re: Ho do I deal with this?? Please help

Post by MoisturePup » Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:48 am

BigCock wrote:
MoisturePup wrote:Your wife is a bitch, put the baby up for adoption and get a divorce. You made a bad choice. Deal with it.
*plonk*
I call your *plonk* and raise you a *plonk* and a petite beagle.

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Post by blyslv » Fri Feb 17, 2006 10:48 am

Stop trying to reason with her. Logic has nothing to do with it.
Fight for the fifth freedom!

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BigCock
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Post by BigCock » Fri Feb 17, 2006 10:55 am

Paying nearly $300 to camp in one of the most hostile environments in the country instead of going to Paris IS logical? You're right, logic has NOTHING to do with it.

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Post by PrincessCharming » Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:46 pm

Right on, Sue.. and Mojo.. Stargirl, thank Gawd you've done away with the Christian women's magazines.. So Oleg, what's happening? I have another thought or two to contribute.. though I don't have children yet, it's a plan... I'm imagining life is going to change one heckuva lot once the wee ones arrive. My partner and I have talked about whether or not we'd bring our baby to Burning Man and have so far been deciding against it, but we'll see what happens when the time comes.

One thing I've been witnessing though, in many new parents, is that the division of labour between moms and dads' direct involvement in meeting the baby's needs seems to often be somewhat inequivalent. But, I think I can safely assert that while many parents are really trying to evenly split up the parenting duties, things may still fall short of 50/50, perhaps even just due to breastfeeding. I wonder if there may be a concern on her part that you're going to be out there having a blast on your art car with all your good buddies while she's changing diapers and breastfeeding? Maybe she has concerns about the toll the sun, dust and chaos may take on herself and the baby? Maybe there's been some lack of connection or communication between the two of you that's left you both questioning the other? You need to ask her, and really be open and accepting of what she says.

I don't know about your intimacy, commitment and communication level, sounds like it's taken a bit of a hit over this, at least.. I agree with what the others said about making your priorities clear. It concerns me too, that you would make this the beginning of the end. If you're in a partnership with her, and you "love her to death", as well as your son, then you would let nothing take you away from her. I would ask yourself whether or not the transition to husband and father is something you may have felt unprepared for, and if this is not a conflict between the you that is still a young buck, wanting to get yer yayas out and git down, and the you that is the mature and devoted husband and father, awe-struck, in love and committed to your family. I think you need to get really present to what's really going on, locate yourself and look at where you are standing in yourself, and what you are standing for in terms of your life and your family. And then have a really long and honest talk with your wife.

...And, counselling is not a bad idea. We all start out with so much inherited baggage from our parents that we're lugging stuff around that impacts our relationships without even being aware of it a lot of the time.

Good luck..

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Re: Ho do I deal with this?? Please help

Post by spectabillis » Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:07 pm

MoisturePup wrote:Your wife is a bitch, ...
dayum, that was a bit much.

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Re: Ho do I deal with this?? Please help

Post by Rob the Wop » Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:28 pm

oleg8888 wrote:Last time (prior to 2004 BM) I went through hell talking my wife (girlfriend then) in to going, she was coming up with all kind of unreasonable excuses not to go, but at the end she ended up making many diff costumes an having a blast at BM. She even confessed to me that she was wrong and she loved BM.
My interpretation: she didn't want to go. You basically railroaded her into going. Why do I say this? "I went through hell talking her into it". If it was that hard, then you weren't trying for compromise, which is the basis of any relationship. If she doesn't want to go, you should respect her descisions. Also "unreasonable excuses"- by whose definitions of unreasonable? If 'I don't feel like going" isn't enough for you, what will you accept?

So she admits to having fun- it sounds like you still forced her hand and this will cause an underlying resentment that YOU must address and put at ease.
oleg8888 wrote: Last year we got married and had a beautiful baby boy. We missed 2005 BM but were ready and eager to join everyone @ 2006.
Things are now radically changed in her life. It tends to affect women more than men- I think simply because of having to carry the child, nursing the child, and resultant hormonal changes. With a major life change this big, you have to disregard her previous descisions on subjects. She can now no longer think of just herself, she must always include the well being of her child. This goes for job changes, vacations, partying as a whole, etc.
oleg8888 wrote: Recently our group of burners decided to build an art car - an exciting and creative event!!!
Saddenly my wife turns 180' and says that it's completely unnecessary effort and is very costly (however it will cost all of us about $100 pp - it's a very simple & inexpensive project, plus we figured ways to pay for portions of it with alternative & legal methods).
I would bet that this is the concern over finances that comes with thinking of the child's well being. The cost doesn't matter- what matters is a) the cost in relation to what can be purchased instead for the child and b) how 'necessary' the art car expense is.
oleg8888 wrote: Today we had a fight about BM in general and she told me that I should be grateful that she even agreed to go. Needless to say it went no-where. I tried to reason with her but she was unreachable.
If she is this adamant about BM, why are you allowing it to become a wedge in your relationship? If BM is more important than your wife, then your priorities in life are seriously screwed. You are with the wrong person, or she is with the wrong person.
oleg8888 wrote: She called me an hour later with an intention to make up, but with no intention to compromise.
Result - She said she'd rather go to Paris then BM. (which would be way more expensive).
She went to BM for you, against her wishes. A compromise would be YOU going to Paris with her. She gave, now it's your turn.
oleg8888 wrote: So, I am totally confused, I love Angela to death, but I have no idea how to reason with her. She is very conservative with money and doesn't spend it on junk.

PLEASE HELP. If we don't come to agreement, this will be the beginning of the end for us:(
I repeatedly get the feeling that your ultimatum to her is:
Go to Burning Man with me, or we are through.

This is not 'reasoning' with her, this is forcing her to do something against her will.

My advice- do not go to Burning Man. You have far more important issues at home that need to be dealt with. If you truely feel that you need to go to Burning Man more than spend time with your wife, then you need to make a clean break with her. She deserves someone that would place her needs above a desert party.
[b]The other, other white meat.[/b]

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the fire elf
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Post by the fire elf » Fri Feb 17, 2006 3:11 pm

some relationships are like bear traps...

big metal clampy things that hurt like a muther fucker...

i advise against stepping into bear traps...even the emotional ones...
instantiate vacuous truth

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Post by the fire elf » Fri Feb 17, 2006 4:03 pm

life is a journey and it behooves you to pick your paths wisely...

one path does not cross BM and Paris simultaneously...

dissonant & harmonious in varying degrees, all relationships have room to grow...
instantiate vacuous truth

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Post by the fire elf » Fri Feb 17, 2006 4:06 pm

oleg8888 wrote:Ho do I deal with this?? Please help
act on a whim
instantiate vacuous truth

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Re: Ho do I deal with this?? Please help

Post by Traveller » Fri Feb 17, 2006 5:29 pm

OK, I'm a guy, not a lady, but maybe you'll be able to get past that, if I manage to make any sense.

oleg8888 wrote:Ladies, this is a question to you, b/c you most like to have an answer to it.

Last time (prior to 2004 BM) I went through hell talking my wife (girlfriend then) in to going, she was coming up with all kind of unreasonable excuses not to go, but at the end she ended up making many diff costumes an having a blast at BM. She even confessed to me that she was wrong and she loved BM. ...

Recently our group of burners decided to build an art car - an exciting and creative event!!!

Saddenly my wife turns 180' and says that it's completely unnecessary effort and is very costly (however it will cost all of us about $100 pp - it's a very simple & inexpensive project, plus we figured ways to pay for portions of it with alternative & legal methods). ...

Result - She said she'd rather go to Paris then BM. (which would be way more expensive).
So, I am totally confused, I love Angela to death, but I have no idea how to reason with her. She is very conservative with money and doesn't spend it on junk.

PLEASE HELP. If we don't come to agreement, this will be the beginning of the end for us:(
Over that? I hope not.

How about this? You are not the boss of her. She is not the boss of you. She went once, and met you halfway on what it was that you wanted to do. If she doesn't want to go again, you shouldn't pressure her.

Any relationship has to be about a little give and take. She compromised a little and went to the place of your choosing (Burning Man), once. Saying that she was doing you a favor might have been a poor way to phrase it, but maybe what she was getting at was that she wanted to see a little reciprocity out of you? She gave ground, now you give a little ground, and if in the process you find yourself slipping toward Paris? There are worse fates.

What I would see as being bothersome, and might stand firm on, is her opposition to your working on that art car. You don't have to go to Burning Man to have a good time helping others who are going to set up their projects, and you are a grown man. You should be free to spend some of your own time and some of your money as you see fit; most adolescents have that much freedom. As for that $100 being her money, too, which usually is the rationalization for that kind of spousal micromanagement, let's compare that to the likely expenditures in Paris - a lot more than $100.

What I would suggest, without knowing you two and so maybe being way off base, is acknowledge that it's her turn to choose the destination, it's only fair, but that fairness has to go both ways. There's a give and take on choosing where you go, and you've respected that, but there's also a give and take on how money is going to be spent. By agreeing to go to Paris with her, some place that nobody would call cheap, you're giving her a lot of ground in the area of spending; it's only fair that she give a little ground back herself, and $100 is not a lot of ground. For most people, I mean, and if you two are talking about going to Europe, odds are you're not working at Walmart.

I'd definitely lose any talk about who is doing who a favor and would hope that she would, too. As you pointed out, she wasn't suffering through her trip to Burning Man, and I can't imagine why you'd be suffering through a trip to Paris. This isn't "my pleasure at the expense of your misery", this is "my favorite pleasure" vs. "your favorite pleasure". Is that something worth throwing away the love of your life over? I guarantee, 10 years from now, you'll barely remember being at or missing this year's festival. Losing a marriage is something that people, on the other hand, is something that many remember and mourn until the end of their lives. A poor trade to make for yourself, I think, made at the expense of somebody who should be able to count on you always thinking of her, as well.

Make sense?

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Post by OregonRed » Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:17 pm

Moisture Pup, your reaction is a bit extreme (I also find myself feeling VERY badly for the lonlieness you are going to suffer later in life for being such an uncomprimising ***hole).

BBS, RTW and Princess Charming have pretty much covered the bases. Your happieness is important, and your wife's happienessis directly related. In other words, if she's not happy, you're not happy (and prolly not getting any as well, doubly unhappy)! You need to show her that your family is more important than anything else. If it's not than you have bigger problems than deciding between Paris and BRC.
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