WAR! What is it good for?

All things outside of Burning Man.
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enthropic
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Post by enthropic » Thu Jan 01, 2004 9:44 pm

[quote="Patience"]

The following is implied by 68Barracuda/enthropic:

If you don't own a gun and are not ready to kill someone with it, then you need to get your head out of your ass and learn to think for yourself.

Utter bullshit. Many of us can think for ourselves, and believe that an "armed populace" is ridiculous an unnecessary for a nation that is practically impenetrable to a land assault--unless, that is, you are expecting a sudden Canadian invasion. When I think for myself, I come to the conclusion that I don't need or want a gun, and that the culture of fear in this country is the main factor, not any actual threat or danger, that convinces people that they do need to possess lethal weapons of force.


Your right,
Posessing a gun has nothing to do with Thinking for yourself. However for those of us who choose to keep a fire arm its not often for the peace of mind from invading 'canadians' or other opposing forces, but from our own neighbors, the very people you see on the streets in your citys, and those punk kids down the street.
James
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Illusion blinds us. Understanding is enlightenment.
James

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DangerMouse
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Post by DangerMouse » Fri Jan 02, 2004 7:54 am

What makes you think the US is so impenetrable to invasion?

You DO know your history right?

Like, IF the japanese had invaded the West Coast of the U.S. during WWII they would have penetrated as deep as Colorado before we could even start to put up a defense? By then half the country and its resources would be under enemy control?

There is nothing wrong with an armed populace. Heck, shooting sports are statistically a very safe pass-time. Plus, I can say I've been glad to have a weapon when someone was beating the back door to my house in trying to get inside. I damn near shot them through the door, thankfully the police showed up in time to prevent that from being necessary. The problem? Some guy tweaked out on some drug decided he wanted into our kitchen. Oh, and he had a knife with him.

I have a right to defend me and mine. Especially when lawsuits are making the police afraid to help people lest they get sued, and police repsonse times rapidly growing towards the higher side of 15 minutes.

Am I a war monger? No, I abhor the thought of war, however I recognize that it is a necesary thing at times. Do I think we need to be at war right now? Nope, but we're there now and I hope that when things are done, the people of Iraq/Afghanistan are better off. The U.S. doesn't typically invade a country and leave it wrecked.

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68barracuda
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Post by 68barracuda » Fri Jan 02, 2004 11:58 am

Oil, Water, a Woman, a mis-spoke word...

Be vigilant, be prepared, be armed, be ready to kill.

Learn how to shoot a pistol, a rifle, and a shotgun and learn ho to clean them.

Buy a gun, better buy a few, and a good amount of loaded rounds.

Get your head out of your ass and think for yourself.

Burning Man is a test of extremes.

People die every day, sometimes its Darwinism at work.

No matter how meek the sheep are, the wolf will still slaughter them.

Man is another beast in the animal kingdom.

Mike
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Enthropic,

Each sentence is as presented a single statement. If you are unable to grasp the simple fact that life is fucking ugly, then by all means stick your head back into the sand. If you are so fortunate that you never have a need for a knife, a club, a baseball bat ,or afirearm to protect yourself or loved ones then wonderful. I on the other hand, live in an ugly misalligned world where even the most innane daily task, like going to the ATM presents a possibility that I will come into harms way. I am prepared to do what is necessary to protect my family and friends.

And uh, the Japanese had intentions of invading the West Coast along with the Mexican Army sweeping North and to the East at the same time. There were verified intellegence reports on both of these invasion senarios during WW2.

And uh, Darwin at work here... Then why the hell are we not beatin' the fuck out of each other with clubs, rocks, and our fists? Living in caves? Chasing game down with our own two flat feet? And why are we the masters of fire, written and verbal communications. Well, the answer for all you boys and girls is that we fucking EVOLVED.

A gun is a tool. Just like a hammer is a tool to drive nails it is nothing more than a conglomeration of metal and plastic formed into a device that with chemical energy discharges a projectile that is capable of causing great bodily harm. So can the hammer in your tool box, the pipe wrench, propane torch, and countless other inannimate objects that suround us every day.

And speaking of an unarmed populace.. Hitler did a fine job of disarming the Jew in Germany and Poland didn't he? And what did he do with all those unarmed Jews.. He fucking slaughtered them like it was going out of style. Polpot, Maio, Stalin, Kadafi, and most reciently captured, the big man himself, the Ace of Spades, Sadam "So Damn Insane" Hussein.

Er, Ghandi was just pissing in the wind. One man cannot effect such a large scale change in HUMAN NATURE. Man is an animal that cannot be tamed with the offering of gifts and solitude. It is force and restraint that keep him in check. Restraint is more than the simple binding of limbs or stuffing him into a box away from others. Your sense of right and wrong, or if you prefer your conscience, tells you that that thing you are about to do is wrong. Society binds us with socially acceptable behavior. Guess what, burning man would not exist if it were not one of the only gathering from which you can throw off the shackles of society and get down and dirty!!

There are no implications to be had from my original post. They were my statements based on my short 35 year existence so far.

Mike

You can't say that civilization don't advance, however, for in every war they kill you in a new way.
Will Rogers (1879 - 1935), New York Times, Dec. 23, 1929

One of the indictments of civilizations is that happiness and intelligence are so rarely found in the same person.
William Feather (1908 - 1976)
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Post by DangerMouse » Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:59 pm

Godwin's law has been invoked. Thread over. Have a nice day.

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Thread over, you wish...

Post by KellY » Fri Jan 02, 2004 2:09 pm

You, know, I'm really sorry you guys live in the world you do- that is, the world inside your head (Mexico and Japan dividing the U.S....all those little not-quite-black people must be league, eh?). It sounds like a pretty miserable place. Maybe you should try saying Hi to your neighbors instead of being so ready to gun them down -oh, wait, thet might shoot you. Good thing you're able to return fire...

Yuck.
"Of what use is a philosopher who doesn't hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes

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stuart
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Post by stuart » Fri Jan 02, 2004 2:40 pm

The U.S. doesn't typically invade a country and leave it wrecked.
ummm, cites? Lets not forget supported coupes and proxy wars either.

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68barracuda
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Post by 68barracuda » Fri Jan 02, 2004 5:06 pm

KellY

You, know, I'm really sorry you guys live in the world you do- that is, the world inside your head (Mexico and Japan dividing the U.S....all those little not-quite-black people must be league, eh?). It sounds like a pretty miserable place. Maybe you should try saying Hi to your neighbors instead of being so ready to gun them down -oh, wait, thet might shoot you. Good thing you're able to return fire...
WTF??
The reference of Japan and Mexico was in the context of Axis Powers planning in WW2. Uh.. that was 60 years ago not fucking yesterday. And the reference to the "not-quite-black people"? Where did that come from? You must think that since I'm from Rural Georgia I must be a backwoods, hillbilly racist, and a member of the KKK so making a reference to assumed stereotypes might just phase me. Especially, since I'm a uneducated, truck driving, beer guzzling, redneck. Ahh.. but thats where you are wrong. Well.. at least about the beer guzzling.

I don't make policy for America, and neither does anyone else on this board. Don't get me wrong, I'd love it if the whole world could live in peace. But our dependence on oil, water, food, and raw materials is consuming and out of control so we ally ourselves with countries that feed our ravenous appetite. The war on Iraq has little to do with Hussien's misdeeds and all in the world to do with oil. But our leaders had to find a reason to attack and weapons of mass destruction was the best one they could come up with.

Bluebirdpoof,
I am sorry that you are suffering from depression. Statistics. statistics. Go to the NRA website and read the real statistics. Or better yet, read one of anti-gun's former talking heads, John Lott's book "More Guns Less Crime". His initial intention was to prove that guns were evil but his results were quite different. People can be evil, not firearms.

Mike
Unless you push your limits how will you ever know where they are?

welcome to my lair.. said the spider to the fly...

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Bob
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Post by Bob » Fri Jan 02, 2004 6:35 pm

Yew fergot "peckerwood".
Amazing desert structures & stuff: http://sites.google.com/site/potatotrap/

"Let us say I suggest you may be human." -- Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam

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Post by Badger » Fri Jan 02, 2004 6:40 pm

Well, I've always thought that Canada was a sleeping tiger just waiting to sac our asses. Hell, our beer alone is worth planning an invasion over.

On second thought though maybe it's just paranoia on my part. I mean, I've never seen a Canadian fired up and ya gotta have that if you're gonna be part of an invading force.
Desert dogs drink deep.

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enthropic
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Post by enthropic » Sat Jan 03, 2004 1:20 am

86b
I do not dissagree with you. People should be willing and able to protect them selfs. Life is ulgy!! We should all be so blessed as to have a hole to hide our heads. As Americans it is so easy to hide from the horrors of the world. I do not know about your circumstances. I am sorry about your A.t.m. problem. Should have seen Kosovo. I can just see an ethnic Albanian going to the A.T.M!!

And yes We are open to attack. 9-11... However most people own guns for more localized problems.
Knothing is seperate. Everything is One.
Illusion blinds us. Understanding is enlightenment.
James

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Bob
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Post by Bob » Sat Jan 03, 2004 4:54 am

...I've never seen a Canadian fired up...
Catch Harley in a weaker moment, then.
Amazing desert structures & stuff: http://sites.google.com/site/potatotrap/

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Chimp
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Post by Chimp » Sat Jan 03, 2004 6:19 am

I don't make policy for America, and neither does anyone else on this board. Don't get me wrong, I'd love it if the whole world could live in peace. But our dependence on oil, water, food, and raw materials is consuming and out of control so we ally ourselves with countries that feed our ravenous appetite. The war on Iraq has little to do with Hussien's misdeeds and all in the world to do with oil. But our leaders had to find a reason to attack and weapons of mass destruction was the best one they could come up with.
So thats okay then Mike? You need the oil so you take it? Lucky you had an evil despot THAT YOU PUT THERE AND ARMED to overthrow. Jesus, over half the people on this planet are in extreme poverty but the Good Ole Boys out West just keep on getting fatter on thanksgiving turkey while children in the third world starve, not to mention STEALING the worlds natural resources while ILLEGALLY imprisoning children, DEVELOPING 'Mini Nukes', scrapping the ABM treaty, destroying the ozone layer, sticking two fingers up at Kyoto and the UN and having the highest level of gun crime in the world. Ghandi was pissing in the wind huh? Funny I thought that cat KICKED THE ENGLISH OUT OF INDIA. Go buy a sock from GAP pal and stick it in you craw.

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68barracuda
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Post by 68barracuda » Sat Jan 03, 2004 12:36 pm

Atrocities? You are from England and you speak vaguely of atrocities by my government? Sounds a little like the pot calling the kettle black. Can we discuss the atrocities by your government in the last 250 odd years?
How about the atrocities in Palistine from 1918 to 1948? British troups murdering and mutilating entire families of dissidents.

How about this event in India: "The historic Jallianwala Bagh tragedy took place on 13th April 1919. A public meeting had been called there that evening. Government issued orders prohibiting it. Still people gathered. General Dyer of the British army learnt this news. He wanted to teach the people whom he considered as law breakers a good lesson. He went to the spot with armed soldiers. The meeting place was a small open area surrounded by a wall. Thousands of people had gathered there. All on a sudden the General gave orders to fire at the mob. Bullets were showered. People could not even run away because of the high wall. The dead bodies piled up. After this, marshal law was imposed. People were subjected to tortures in addition to humiliation."

Was it not the British that brought opium to China in the 1800's? And didn't a war break out between the British and Chiniese to control the opium trade?

"When China was defeated by Japan in 1895, European powers responded with a policy they called, "carving up the Chinese melon." Following the partitioning of Africa among European powers, they turned their sights to what they saw as a terminally weak Chinese government. European powers and America began to scramble for what was called "spheres of interest." These spheres of interest involved holding leases for all railway and commercial privileges in various regions. The Russians got Port Arthur, the British got the New Territories around Hong Kong, the Germans got a leasehold in Shantung, and the Americans got nothing. Concentrating largely on the Philipines and Guam, the Americans had missed the Chinese boat and so insisted on an "open door" policy in China in which commercial opportunities were equally available to all European powers and the political and territorial integrity of China remained untouched." http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/CHING/BOXER.HTM
This led up to the Boxer Rebellion against any foreign power on Chinese soil.

Remember the Faulkands? Invasion of Turkey?

Yes, I found it facinating how much death and destruction has been offered up by your British government in the last 250 years and how little my own country the United States of America has been involved in such atrocities. Yes, we had Korea, Vietnam, Phillipine Rebellion, and the first and this latest war against Iraq but the numbers are vastly different.
Chimp Wrote:

So thats okay then Mike? You need the oil so you take it? Lucky you had an evil despot THAT YOU PUT THERE AND ARMED to overthrow. Jesus, over half the people on this planet are in extreme poverty but the Good Ole Boys out West just keep on getting fatter on thanksgiving turkey while children in the third world starve, not to mention STEALING the worlds natural resources while ILLEGALLY imprisoning children, DEVELOPING 'Mini Nukes', scrapping the ABM treaty, destroying the ozone layer, sticking two fingers up at Kyoto and the UN and having the highest level of gun crime in the world. Ghandi was pissing in the wind huh? Funny I thought that cat KICKED THE ENGLISH OUT OF INDIA. Go buy a sock from GAP pal and stick it in you craw.
Lets take a look at each point offered up by Chimp.
You need the oil so you take it?
Yup! We certainly do after we develop ecological studies of the impact on the local area, build and maintain the wells then turn the wells over to the locally owned oil companies or as romantically put "the oil Sheiks" Then we pay for the oil that these countries put out and subsidize the local economy both directly and indirectly. And uh.. where is the taking?

Lucky you had an evil despot THAT YOU PUT THERE AND ARMED to overthrow
You know I'm fucking tired of vague swipes HIS NAME IS GEORGE W. BUSH. If you want to refer to him use his name. Yes, I voted for Bush weither or not thats any of your business since in your country you have a Royal family and you have NO choice of who runs your country. He's certainly not evil, he's from TEXAS. And who are we overthrowing? Oh, you must mean Sadam Hussein.
Jesus, over half the people on this planet are in extreme poverty but the Good Ole Boys out West just keep on getting fatter on thanksgiving turkey while children in the third world starve
Lets examine what put these unfortunate people into poverty. Could it be that this is the aftermath of (Gasp) colonialism. The fact that the former Colonial governments of all these third world countries you have mentioned were in these countries for a very specific reason. There were natural resources that the occupying country wanted. Diamonds in South Africa, Gold in South America, Slaves in Africa, Spices in India, and precious gems in Southeast Asia. What all these countries have in common was an invading force that needed these resources because they had either depleted their own or never had them in the first place. Lets also look at my own beautiful country. It was to be the jewel of the British Empire with its vast natural resources to be tapped all in the name of King and Country. Only one small problem there were few native peoples for the mighty British war machine to bulldoze. Only europeans that had made it here escaping from religious persecution or on prison ships sent to work the lands of the King. Distance and aloofness of the King let a seed of rebellion take root and thusly Americans rose up to kick the British out of a now free America. With the help of the French we were able to do it. If we had not succeeded I'd be sitting here having tea and watching the BBC but instead I'm watching VH1 Country, smoking a Winston light, drinking a Diet Cherry Coke, and planning on going to the gun store and buy more fucking bullets for the many fucking guns that I own. Oh, I'm sorry, you can't "legally" own a gun(pistol) over there on the British Isles. Whoo Whoo!
But back to the point made by Chimp, the poverty you are refering to was the effect of colonialism by Western Europe and England. So am I supposed to clean up your mess? I don't think so.

not to mention STEALING the worlds natural resources while ILLEGALLY imprisoning children,
Hard to steal something that is up for sale isn't it? This is yet another circular arguement but set in motion by simple supply and demand principles. You have something so you create a market for it then if the market is strong you begin selling off a bit of your supply to match growing demands then once this dynamic is set into motion you control the price and availability of your product or service. Simple, market strategy. Its the children! We've got to protect the children! Oh my, the children! Was this supposed to elicit an emotional response from me and the readers of your post? I'm hoping that it doesn't but it will likely do so since a majority of humans operate off their emotions instead of their brains. Ask someone a question and see if they answer with "I feel" or "I think" This a pretty good indication of their mental wiring. It is also an indication of how this thread got so divided as well.

DEVELOPING 'Mini Nukes', scrapping the ABM treaty, destroying the ozone layer, sticking two fingers up at Kyoto and the UN and having the highest level of gun crime in the world.
I could'nt help laughing at this one point. MI5 developed the mini tactical nuclear device in the late 70's. Thats your own British government at work. There have been holes in the ozone layer above the North and South poles since before man developed the ability to walk upright. Freon or R12 most specifically is heavier than air but admittedly industrial nations and their industries are the major contributors to a buildup of greenhouse gasses. But the agricultural industry specifically the cattle industry is also a large contributor as well. All those bulls farting... I believe you meant to mention the SART treaty of 1997 between the USA and the former USSR http://www.defenselink.mil/acq/acic/tre ... tartoc.htm I believe that both parties have followed the agreement with some exceptions noted in the Baltic states that instead of destroying their arsenal sold off the technology, parts, and pieces to various other countries and organizations. Yes, you can say that the American Auto industry has not abided by the Kyoto Protocol with reguards to the CO emissions produced by the automobile industry and the vehicles produces as well. But, in our own defense the radical changes required to meet the reductions in emissions have not been met by any other heavily industrialized nation either. It was considered by its own authors as a guideline that all nations should work toward. Read Article 2 Section 1 A and B. http://unfccc.int/resource/docs/convkp/kpeng.html

having the highest level of gun crime in the world.
Should be addressed seperately. What numbers do you have to back those claims? Yes, there is a lot of gun crime in this country but what about the Middle East? South Africa? The Baltic States? Or is that war so its different?

Ghandi was pissing in the wind huh? Funny I thought that cat KICKED THE ENGLISH OUT OF INDIA.
I will admit that my comments were out of line in reference to Ghandi. He was a great man that helped lead India from British rule. There was no kicking the British out but careful negociations that mutually benefited Britian and the newly independent India. This book is very detailed and covers the path Ghandi and India took to obtain their independence from British rule. By the way, the people of the USA are mentioned many times as allies of India's independence. http://www.bookchecker.com/0766013987

Go buy a sock from GAP pal and stick it in you craw.
Well.. so now your stepping down to personal attacks? With respect of others on this board I will not even answer this attack because it has no merit or real purpose in this discussion.

Mike
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Post by Zulegoona » Sat Jan 03, 2004 11:44 pm

I think Chip is missing the point of this war, It's not about taking the oil. It's about taking tax money from the American middle class and giving it to the neo-cons corporate friends. It's all about war and reconstruction profiteering. It's just a part of the larger war on the American middle class that’s intended on bringing back the golden age of the moneyed class "the American aristocracy" robber barons that can effectively keep the rest of us in our place.

With out national health care those of us lucky enough to have insurance are dependant on our jobs already when they can manage to dismantle the rest of the new deal safety net, get rid of all those pesky regulations or better yet keep some of them you can point to as being on the books but don't give the agencies charged with enforcing them the funding to be able to do so.

With out effective work place safety, environmental constraints, truly secure Social Security. Accompanied with the concentration of media control into a few hands that are imbedded with the government, pumping up the paranoia so the masses are happy to give away more of there personal freedoms for a false belief they can be safe. America will be filled with compliant citizens in a stable well ordered society. Big brother and Daddy Warbucks will take care of every thing as long as we are good little workers..... all we need now is jobs.

Mike your right, we didn't do much as a colonial power, we found it much more profitable to set up the client state system of obtaining the worlds resources it was a lesson learned after the civil war, when you had slaves you had to feed them try to keep them healthy and when they couldn't work any more you still had to pay to maintain them, not very cost effective. Setting up a dictator or backing an antisocialist junta that we could do business with made for a stable environment to make money in, and we didn't have to dirty our hands keeping there population under control. Now the companies that used to depend on our government to manipulate world politics for them has found they prefer to just do it then selves the way have controlled us over the years by giving them jobs. Now there very few places in the world you can't find a McJob.

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Post by 68barracuda » Sun Jan 04, 2004 1:47 am

Yes, Zulegonna it is about control. Controling the middle class American with threats and intimidation. Uh... don't fuck up Mr. Smith or we'll cancel your health care or send you packing with no health care for your family. The effect on the average worker is longer hours, more stress, more work, less insurance and other benefits, poor job availability, and a general sense of dispair by most middle class workers. I know at my own company this year they have cut the healthcare plan 25% for us management folks and we are now paying for part of our shitty assed insurance. I carry my own catastrophic care insurance bond from when I was a contractor. It covers me, my employees, and our families in case of a major care issue. I pay my minor care out of pocket and after being in business for 8+ years it was cheaper than paying any fucking insurance companies premiums. Maybe I was lucky that during that time we had little in the way of claims.

"Think for your self" is not just a blanket statement but my call to everybody I come into contact with to look for ways to isolate yourself from the dependence on other to provide for you and your family. Some of my own examples are I am capable of growing almost all the vegetables I need for a year in 4 16sq/ft garden plots. I can dry and can process any extra fruits and vegetables. I can raise my own blended tobaccos, properly dry it, and process it for cigarettes or cigars. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to brew your own beer, wine, and blended liquors. Think about it, if you do any of these things you are taking money away from the war machine our own government has established. And the giant corporations will make fools of themselves trying to eliminate the posibility that you can provide goods and services without their fingers poking into your pie. Fight SMART not HARD!

Mike
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Post by Zulegoona » Sun Jan 04, 2004 11:23 am

Don't get me wrong, I'm in favor of paying taxes for the social good. I vote for school referendums even though I don't have kids, I am strongly for money for the Arts, Humanities, and pure scientific research. Establishing and maintaining a good infrastructure. And I don't mind paying for the government as a part of society set up to do these things. I am for the redistribution of wealth, The roles majority of us play in our lives make it possible for the wealthy to make the money they do, so it seems only fair they pay there fair share even if it's 90% of there income. I'm for representative government because I have seen how the masses can be manipulated by greed, self interest, and emotion into a mob psychology that could be more tyrannical than the worst dictator. I am in favor of a strong independent judiciary that reinforces our constitution by handing down judgments that protect the few from the many, and the weak from the strong.

I very much respect self reliance and preparedness, but even as a bit of a loaner enjoy living in a society and economy that enables each of us to live according to our talents and preferences; even though I can fix my own van when it's not working right I am so glad I can pay someone who likes to work on vehicles to do it because I hate working on them. I enjoy being able to eat bread and meat I didn't have to raise and process myself, and I enjoy having things in my life created by others that have a real talent or it. It makes me interdependent with others but that interdependence enables each of us to be our best, coming together as a society we can be better together than any of us are on our own.

Are these all things that can be and should be exported to the rest of the world?

A world that is fair and equitable that enables every one to be the best they can be and a world community that is far better than the sum of it's parts. I think it would be. Can it be done with force? clearly NO. Even if that were what the United States was trying to do. Especially when it's those best qualities of our society that are under attack by those intent on asserting military power.

OK so now the wars are over, we are in Afghanistan, and Iraq , all that’s left is mopping up the insurgence, freedom fighters, terrorists, and people who just don't like us telling them what to do. What now? Since the two new nations were the result of George and the boys screwing around the only right thing to do is try to make sure these kids grow up right, vote yes on the school referendum and pay your taxes. Hope they end up better off, with better lives than we have, and tell George and his friends to keep it in there pants.

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Post by Chimp » Sun Jan 04, 2004 1:41 pm

First off regarding 'the empire' and history - I don't give a rats ass Mike, I have never denied that there have been atrocities committed by the British, its you who bangs on about 'man being just another animal in the animal kingdom' so why now all the nationalist rhetoric ie - "Now lets look at my own beautiful country". I am more interested in the here and now and I'm sorry but perhaps as the British Empire fell and the Roman Empire fell and communism failed etc etc what exactly makes you think the American Capitalist Empire won't fall and the sickening mall lust that consumes the Oprah Winfrey / Jerry Springer generation wont consume itself whole - I am not debating the past but the present and lets face the fact that you are a full blown capitalist piggy
You have something so you create a market for it then if the market is strong you begin selling off a bit of your supply to match growing demands then once this dynamic is set into motion you control the price and availability of your product or service. Simple, market strategy.
'simple market strategy', - ' money money money, in a rich man's world', hmmm, oh and capitalism goes so well with the bullshit trappings of consumerism huh?
I'm watching VH1 Country, smoking a Winston light, drinking a Diet Cherry Coke, and planning on going to the gun store and buy more fucking bullets for the many fucking guns that I own. Oh, I'm sorry, you can't "legally" own a gun(pistol) over there on the British Isles. Whoo Whoo!
I particularly like the 'Whoo whoo', very de rigeur in emails these days - it is exactly this kind of juvenile language used regarding guns that I find so very worrying, oh well. Regarding the George Bush swipe, er that wasn't a swipe and yes I did mean Saddam Husein, still trying to make sense of this statement Mike -
You know I'm fucking tired of vague swipes HIS NAME IS GEORGE W. BUSH. If you want to refer to him use his name. Yes, I voted for Bush weither or not thats any of your business since in your country you have a Royal family and you have NO choice of who runs your country. He's certainly not evil, he's from TEXAS. And who are we overthrowing? Oh, you must mean Sadam Hussein.
er, yeah the royal family hold so much sway in this country especially after Cromwell - NOT - this point is mute i'm afraid mate, no meaning. Lets look at this rather mean comment next
Its the children! We've got to protect the children! Oh my, the children! Was this supposed to elicit an emotional response from me and the readers of your post? I'm hoping that it doesn't but it will likely do so since a majority of humans operate off their emotions instead of their brains. Ask someone a question and see if they answer with "I feel" or "I think" This a pretty good indication of their mental wiring.
Oh dear, not gonna win any Mr.Nice Guy contests here are we Mike? And BTW while you are making vast arrogant sweeping statements about the 'majority of humans' and how they operate you might want to keep that whopping great ego in check.

As to the Kyoto protocol argument -
Yes, you can say that the American Auto industry has not abided by the Kyoto Protocol with reguards to the CO emissions produced by the automobile industry and the vehicles produces as well. But, in our own defense the radical changes required to meet the reductions in emissions have not been met by any other heavily industrialized nation either
- thats no defence at all buddy, well perhaps a ten year old might get away with it + I don't give a shit if M15 developed a mini nuke device in the seventies - that was a different time and I wouldn't have agreed with it then. The point is that you are developing 'bunker busting' mini nukes right now.

Finally, this is an argument I don't need to win so enjoy your VH1

'Television the drug of the nation, feeding ignorance and breeding radiation' - Michael Franti

Oh, one more thing, just to reiterate, I never mentioned GWB
I voted for Bush weither or not thats any of your business since in your country you have a Royal family and you have NO choice of who runs your country. He's certainly not evil, he's from TEXAS.
Methinks the lady doth protest too much...
Last edited by Chimp on Mon Jan 05, 2004 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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68barracuda
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Post by 68barracuda » Sun Jan 04, 2004 2:51 pm

So I'm the bad guy? Oh bloody well... Yup. It is full blown capitolism and consumerism and I'm responsible for it all. Capitolist piggy, eh? Arrogant? I state the facts, as in the truth, not bullshit name calling and character stabs. But if thats the game you want to play go right ahead since you cannot seem to grasp a single concept I've tried to put out there. But, thats to be expected because what you have been exposed to is obviously different to what I've been exposed to. But go right ahead and blame me, little ol' me, for all the worlds problems. I'm used to it, besides I'm just a trashy ol' American.

Quote:
Its the children! We've got to protect the children! Oh my, the children! Was this supposed to elicit an emotional response from me and the readers of your post? I'm hoping that it doesn't but it will likely do so since a majority of humans operate off their emotions instead of their brains. Ask someone a question and see if they answer with "I feel" or "I think" This a pretty good indication of their mental wiring.

Where exactly in that statement do you figure I'm not Mr. Nice Guy? I was simply making an observation along with debunking your statement of "its to protect the children". It has always been an excuse given when imperical data is unavailable or is against the view of the party using the "its to protect the children" excuse.

You were right about the Kyoto and I was agreeing with you but you just didn't get it so you try to make it personal.. well fuck you Chimp. THERE WAS NO EGO IN MY STATEMENT just the facts that have seemed to have evaded you. As for continuing this diatribe I will bow out since it is obvious that I am having a battle with a child lacking in basic ability to separate facts from emotion. Please refrain from continuing the chicken shit, lame assed attack on my character.

That is all..

Mike
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Post by Badger » Sun Jan 04, 2004 3:28 pm

You're wrestling with the proverbial pig there....
Desert dogs drink deep.

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Post by Chimp » Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:21 am

Nice Avatar 68barracuda, imperi... - sorry, 'empirically' speaking of course

he he he...


'Hold on tight baby, its such a long way down..'

"That the US sees nothing wrong with holding children at Guantanamo and interrogating them is a shocking indicator of how cavalier the Bush administration has become about respecting human rights," - Amnesty International spokesman, Alistair Hodgett.

"[The detention of youths] reflects our broader concerns that the US never properly determined the legal status of those held in the conflict," - James Ross, legal adviser for Human Rights Watch in New York.

Quoted April 2003

BTW where at any point in any thread did I write "Its to protect the children"? I would love to know.
Last edited by Chimp on Mon Jan 05, 2004 8:54 am, edited 3 times in total.

SED
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Post by SED » Mon Jan 05, 2004 8:11 am

Why not dial down the attitude, everybody?

Maybe you'll make some progress, unless throwing shitballs at each other is what you really. If that's the case, why do all that research into history? Any ignoramus can do what you all are doing.
It ain't the hanging, it's the drop.

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Post by 68barracuda » Mon Jan 05, 2004 10:06 am

Hey SED,

I've said all I'm going to say. Cause I've made my point and there ain't no reason to continue. I consider the matter complete and will not be responding on this thread. Other than for capitol offenses, like murder, 17 is old enough to be tried as an adult in this country and Britian. I.E. the youngest detainee was 17 years old.

Mike

Not EDITED by Mike....
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68barracuda
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Post by 68barracuda » Mon Jan 05, 2004 10:21 am

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/ ... 3616.shtml

Ops, I was wrong 15 is the youngest...

So sorry..

Mike
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Post by Patience » Mon Jan 05, 2004 11:14 am

68barracuda wrote: If you are so fortunate that you never have a need for a knife, a club, a baseball bat ,or afirearm to protect yourself or loved ones then wonderful. I on the other hand, live in an ugly misalligned world where even the most innane daily task, like going to the ATM presents a possibility that I will come into harms way. I am prepared to do what is necessary to protect my family and friends.
I also live in a dangerous world, Mike. I find myself in a situation similar to what you describe, but my reaction to it is quite different. I see two distinct options. I can regard other people as objects of suspicion and fear, potential enemies I must be prepared to kill if necessary. I can keep a gun to "protect" my home, not look people in the eye, be full of mistrust and fear. Alternatively, I can accept the risk involved living in this world, and refuse to make it worse. I will not make it worse by perpetuating the violence I abhor. I will not make it worse by regarding and treating other human beings as my enemies. I will move through this dangerous world happy and free of fear of "them," whomever they may be.

And maybe I get unlucky and some homocidal maniac pulls a gun on me, and maybe I'll be killed. But while alive, I'll not contribute to this culture of violence, fear and mistrust.

Eventually, all the gun-toters who are "safe" with their weapons will be dead too. What sort of lives will they have lead, and what effect will they have had?
A gun is a tool. Just like a hammer is a tool to drive nails it is nothing more than a conglomeration of metal and plastic formed into a device that with chemical energy discharges a projectile that is capable of causing great bodily harm. So can the hammer in your tool box, the pipe wrench, propane torch, and countless other inannimate objects that suround us every day.
The important difference being that the gun serves no purpose other than to kill. As you've pointed out (somewhere), the tool is not evil. I agree. But it is extraordinarily dangerous (over 11,000 gunshot homicides in the U.S. annually: check NCICP data at http://webapp.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_sy.html), and dangerous tools should be regulated. I see it as fairly reasonable to assert that a tool that serves no purpose other than causing "great bodily harm" should not be made readily available to the public, unless your desire is for people to shoot one another.
It's not that I hate you. It's just that I'm a much better person than you.

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Post by 68barracuda » Mon Jan 05, 2004 11:56 am

The same point could be made for the automobile as well...

Number of
Deaths Population Crude
Rate Age-Adjusted
Rate**
43,987 285,317,572 15.42 15.36

Thats 43,987 automobile related deaths in 2001. Jeez, I'm staying at home.. :?

Mike
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Post by 68barracuda » Mon Jan 05, 2004 12:01 pm

:shock: Yikes! Non-firearm related violent deaths...

Violence-Related Non-Firearm Deaths and Rates per 100,000
All Races, Both Sexes, All Ages
ICD-10 Codes: X60-X71, X75-X84,Y87.0, X85-X92,
X96-Y09,Y87.1,Y35(.1-.9),Y89.0,
*U01(.0-.3,.5-.9),*U02,*U03





Number of
Deaths Population Crude
Rate Age-Adjusted
Rate**
22,786 285,317,572 7.99 7.95

22,786 deaths? :(
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Post by 68barracuda » Mon Jan 05, 2004 12:10 pm

Jesus! More people die from suffocation that Firearms?!!


2001, United States
Suffocation Deaths and Rates per 100,000
All Races, Both Sexes, All Ages
ICD-10 Codes: W75-W84,X70,X91,Y20


Number of
Deaths Population Crude
Rate Age-Adjusted
Rate**
12,574 285,317,572 4.41 4.40
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Post by Chimp » Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:00 pm

Missing the point again Mikey Boy-cars aren't intended to kill, whatever.

Just dropped in to say my devotchka has just viddied all your posts and has described you as both a caveman and an emotional retard -

Patience she loves you

Kissesxxxx

(besides all that, your'e a bit thick 68b)

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Post by Patience » Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:05 pm

Actually, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and just using homicides, which was over 11,000 for firearms. 86 for motor vehicles. 690 for suffocation.

If you want the number for total firearm deaths, as you're using in your statistics, it's 29,573.

That number is higher than all violence-related non-firearm deaths combined (22,786).
It's not that I hate you. It's just that I'm a much better person than you.

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Post by Arnold Layne » Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:22 pm

68barracuda collez votre pistolet vers le haut de votre âne vous mule!!!

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