WAR! What is it good for?

All things outside of Burning Man.
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stuart
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Post by stuart » Mon Jan 05, 2004 4:02 pm

Just dropped in to say my devotchka has just viddied all your posts and has described you as both a caveman and an emotional retard

hey commander internet, what value does this statement have on the discussion?

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68barracuda
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Post by 68barracuda » Mon Jan 05, 2004 4:47 pm

I.. I... don't know what to say... I.. I.. :shock:

Well, Thanks comes to mind.... :D

Mike
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Post by Chimp » Tue Jan 06, 2004 3:47 am

Yarbles Stuart...

Me and my droogies would gladly tolchock this gloopy malchick real horrorshow to the strains of the great Ludwig Van my brother and whats been said is as nothing compared to the comment made by the bezoomny Arnold Layne, I pony that translates as "Stick your pistol to the top of your arse you mule" - I viddy no appy polly loggies from him neither, more like a kick in the gulliver.

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Post by 68barracuda » Tue Jan 06, 2004 7:38 am

Why, oh why, must you make it personal…

You'll have two opportunities this year to do so then...

June 23rd thru July 1st I will be on the Isles visiting friends and relatives in Ireland. I'll be in the London area and I know we will be on Baker Street to see Madame Tussauds waxwork museum and the London Planetarium on either the 27th or 28th.

…and

August 30th thru September 6th at Black Rock City.

I will insist that you email privately for more detailed information on what I will be wearing and a local telephone number in Ireland. I will also suggest you tone it down on the forums before you get us both kicked off.

Thanks,

Michael Coffel
Auburn, Georgia

mdcoffel@hotmail.com
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Post by Chimp » Tue Jan 06, 2004 8:08 am

Yawn...

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68barracuda
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Post by 68barracuda » Tue Jan 06, 2004 8:21 am

That's what I thought...

Wuss.
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Post by Chimp » Tue Jan 06, 2004 8:37 am

Oooohhh, sooooo Macho 68b, I assume you'll be er 'packing'?, Ah screw it, I knew it would come down to invitations of 'fisticuffs' to prove who is the bigger MAN, he he he, next it'll be pistols at dawn eh?

True Colours Mike - Hook Line And Sinker.

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed." Dwight D. Eisenhower (1953)

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68barracuda
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Post by 68barracuda » Tue Jan 06, 2004 8:48 am

Yarbles Stuart...

Me and my droogies would gladly tolchock this gloopy malchick real horrorshow to the strains of the great Ludwig Van my brother and whats been said is as nothing compared to the comment made by the bezoomny Arnold Layne, I pony that translates as "Stick your pistol to the top of your arse you mule" - I viddy no appy polly loggies from him neither, more like a kick in the gulliver.
You're the one that invited it. So back off jack off. You are obviously writing checks you can't cash...

Humbly yours,
Mike

Edited to add:

Unless this is an attempt at British humor, then by all means...
Last edited by 68barracuda on Tue Jan 06, 2004 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Chimp » Tue Jan 06, 2004 8:52 am

'cheques'

By the way, I am mildly, very mildly, impressed you understand the language employed, a marriage of Russian and Cockney, perhaps you'd care to translate the post you quoted

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68barracuda
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Post by 68barracuda » Tue Jan 06, 2004 9:12 am

No, I don't have too. It was taken in its literal form due to a lack of any other explainations. We're done here because continuing just brings down the board and makes us both look like, like, well idiots is appropriate, I think. I conceed, you win. You're the better man. I'm not worthy of your efforts. Get the last word in and lock the thread.


Mike
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Post by Chimp » Tue Jan 06, 2004 9:26 am

Dude, we're just two idiots in the idiot kingdom. Fun though wasn't it?

Please though I beg ya, think again about the wisdom of carrying a gun.

Best

J

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stuart
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Post by stuart » Tue Jan 06, 2004 10:05 am

hey captain solo, it's one thing to get personal in your little discusion but entirely juvenile to say something to the effect of 'I showed yer stuff to this girl and she thinks you suck too.' Despite the affectations of your dialect it still sounds like (props to P on this one) 'nyah, nyah, nyah'. The notion that we are somewhat idealogically aligned is grating when I read that shit.

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Post by lurker » Tue Jan 06, 2004 12:49 pm

Ah the laughs.

Big ol' peacnik Chimpy threatening the old ultra-violence--in nadsat no less!

What you think, my simian friend, americans don't read Burgess?

Looks a lot like you ran out of smart comebacks
"Life is like a box of razor blades. Sharp, shiny, and good for removing unwanted body hair"

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68barracuda
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Post by 68barracuda » Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:02 pm

No Lurker, I got tired of wasting time and I asked for a truce with Chimp and he was man enough to let it end. I've got materials to gather, things to build, and ideas to work on. Let It END.

Mike
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Post by lurker » Wed Jan 07, 2004 11:29 am

Oh, I know.

but do you think it'll end?

you think Chimp'll let the next talking point slip past without posting it on this thread with a hearty 'so there!'?

I don't.

but you are right there is much to do and never enough time to do it in...

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Viddy this...

Post by Last Real Burner » Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:57 pm

Rules for a gunfight .............

1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns.

2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Double Tap! Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.

3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.

4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough or using cover correctly.

5. Move into/from your attacker unless you are facing overwhelming firepower. (Lateral and diagonal movement are preferred.)

6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.

7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.

8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and moving.

9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun. Use a gun that works EVERY TIME. Don't aim; SEE your target and put the bullet where you are looking.

10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

11. Always cheat, always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.

12. Have a plan.

13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.

14. Use cover or concealment as much as possible.

15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.

16. Don't drop your guard.

17. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.

18. Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them.)

19. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.

20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.

21. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

22. Be courteous to everyone... friendly to no one.

23. Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation... and violence when needed.

24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun unless the caliber starts with a "4" or some higher number.



"When in doubt, run."

you're malchick droogie,
mr smith
"Do you know what happened to the boy who got everything he wished for? - He lived happily ever after".

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Post by Chimp » Mon Jan 19, 2004 6:40 am

Hi all, this is a blatant crossthread attempt to push certain crossthread irritants to the bottom of the pile.

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Post by DE FACTO » Mon Jan 26, 2004 4:09 pm

So now that the british and the american administrations are under presure, how long do you think it will take to suddenly have some kind of WMD pop up in Iraq ?

Hope there is a PCR/DNA test on anything they find at least.

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Post by cowboyangel » Sun May 16, 2004 11:32 am

On Feb 15 2003 MILLIONS of people around the world came out to the streets to say no to war....this is not only mega historic it is evolutionary!
People are truely tired of war a soultion to anything....Mega mass people uprisings BM included< are showing a better brighter way yeah.....
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believe is false."- William Casey, CIA Director 1981

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Post by Simply Joel » Mon May 17, 2004 9:48 am

Sarin Nerve Agent Bomb Explodes in Iraq

By CHRISTOPHER TORCHIA, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - A roadside bomb containing deadly sarin nerve agent exploded near a U.S. military convoy, the U.S. military said Monday. It was believed to be the first confirmed finding of any of the banned weapons upon which the United States based its case for the Iraq war.

Two people were treated for "minor exposure," but no serious injuries were reported.

The deadly chemical was inside an artillery shell dating to the Saddam Hussein era that had been rigged as a bomb in Baghdad, said Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, the chief military spokesman in Iraq.

U.S. troops have announced the discovery of other chemical weapons before, only to see them disproved by later tests. A dozen chemical shells were also found by U.N. inspectors before the war; they had been tagged for destruction in the 1990s but somehow were not destroyed.

"The Iraqi Survey Group confirmed today that a 155-millimeter artillery round containing sarin nerve agent had been found," Kimmitt said. "The round had been rigged as an IED (improvised explosive device) which was discovered by a U.S. force convoy.

"A detonation occurred before the IED could be rendered inoperable. This produced a very small dispersal of agent," he said.
The incident occurred "a couple of days ago," he said.

The Iraqi Survey Group is a U.S. organization whose task was to search for weapons of mass destruction after Saddam's ouster.

The round was an old `binary-type' shell in which two chemicals held in separate sections are mixed after firing to produce sarin, Kimmitt said.

He said he believed that insurgents who rigged the artillery shell as a bomb didn't know it contained the nerve agent, and that the dispersal of the nerve agent from such a rigged device was very limited.

"The former regime had declared all such rounds destroyed before the 1991 Gulf War," Kimmitt said. Two members of a military bomb squad were treated for minor exposure to nerve agent, but none was injured.

It was unclear if the sarin shell was from chemical rounds that the United Nations had tagged and marked for destruction before the U.S. invasion.

Prior to the war, U.N. inspectors had compiled a short list of proscribed items found during hundreds of surprise inspections: fewer than 20 old, empty chemical warheads for battlefield rockets, and a dozen artillery shells filled with mustard gas. The shells had been tagged by U.N. inspectors in the 1990s but somehow not destroyed by them.

In 1995, Japan's Aum Shinrikyo cult unleashed sarin gas in Tokyo's subways, killing 12 people and sickening thousands. In February of this year, Japanese courts convicted the cult's former leader, Shoko Asahara, and sentence him to be executed.

Developed in the mid-1930s by Nazi scientists, a single drop of sarin can cause quick, agonizing choking death. There are no known instances of the Nazis actually using the gas.

Nerve gases work by inhibiting key enzymes in the nervous system, blocking their transmission. Small exposures can be treated with antidotes, if administered quickly.

Antidotes to nerve gases similar to sarin are so effective that top poison gas researchers predict they eventually will cease to be a war threat.

The Bush administration cited allegations that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction as a main reason for launching the war in Iraq last year, but no evidence of such weapons has been found.

Since the war ended, the U.S.-led coalition has found several caches that tested positive for mustard gas but later turned out to contain missile fuel or other chemicals.

In January, troops discovered 36 mortar rounds believed to hold a blister agent, but later tests showed there was no such chemical inside.

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Post by cowboyangel » Mon May 17, 2004 2:17 pm

cowboyangel wrote:On Feb 15 2003 MILLIONS of people around the world came out to the streets to say no to war....this is not only mega historic it is evolutionary!
People are truely tired of war a solution to anything....Mega mass people uprisings BM included< are showing a better brighter way yeah.....
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believe is false."- William Casey, CIA Director 1981

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Post by cowboyangel » Mon May 17, 2004 2:24 pm

1 more thing Joel...this small find hardly qualifies as a major reason to go to war. The US military's use of tons of depleted uranium munitions makes this
small quantity of sarin, pale by comparison.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believe is false."- William Casey, CIA Director 1981

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Post by cowboyangel » Mon May 17, 2004 8:56 pm

Atrocities in Iraq: 'I Killed Innocent People for Our Government'
By Paul Rockwell
Sacramento Bee

Sunday 16 May 2004

"We forget what war is about, what it does to those who wage it and those who suffer from it. Those who hate war the most, I have often found, are veterans who know it."
- Chris Hedges, New York Times reporter and author of "War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning"

For nearly 12 years, Staff Sgt. Jimmy Massey was a hard-core, some say gung-ho, Marine. For three years he trained fellow Marines in one of the most grueling indoctrination rituals in military life - Marine boot camp.

The Iraq war changed Massey. The brutality, the sheer carnage of the U.S. invasion, touched his conscience and transformed him forever. He was honorably discharged with full severance last Dec. 31 and is now back in his hometown, Waynsville, N.C.

When I talked with Massey last week, he expressed his remorse at the civilian loss of life in incidents in which he himself was involved.

Q: You spent 12 years in the Marines. When were you sent to Iraq?

A: I went to Kuwait around Jan. 17. I was in Iraq from the get-go. And I was involved in the initial invasion.

Q: What does the public need to know about your experiences as a Marine?

A: The cause of the Iraqi revolt against the American occupation. What they need to know is we killed a lot of innocent people. I think at first the Iraqis had the understanding that casualties are a part of war. But over the course of time, the occupation hurt the Iraqis. And I didn't see any humanitarian support.

Q: What experiences turned you against the war and made you leave the Marines?

A: I was in charge of a platoon that consists of machine gunners and missile men. Our job was to go into certain areas of the towns and secure the roadways. There was this one particular incident - and there's many more - the one that really pushed me over the edge. It involved a car with Iraqi civilians. From all the intelligence reports we were getting, the cars were loaded down with suicide bombs or material. That's the rhetoric we received from intelligence. They came upon our checkpoint. We fired some warning shots. They didn't slow down. So we lit them up.

Q: Lit up? You mean you fired machine guns?

A: Right. Every car that we lit up we were expecting ammunition to go off. But we never heard any. Well, this particular vehicle we didn't destroy completely, and one gentleman looked up at me and said: "Why did you kill my brother? We didn't do anything wrong." That hit me like a ton of bricks.

Q: He spoke English?

A: Oh, yeah.

Q: Baghdad was being bombed. The civilians were trying to get out, right?

A: Yes. They received pamphlets, propaganda we dropped on them. It said, "Just throw up your hands, lay down weapons." That's what they were doing, but we were still lighting them up. They weren't in uniform. We never found any weapons.

Q: You got to see the bodies and casualties?

A: Yeah, firsthand. I helped throw them in a ditch.

Q: Over what period did all this take place?

A: During the invasion of Baghdad.

'We Lit Him up Pretty Good'
Q: How many times were you involved in checkpoint "light-ups"?

A: Five times. There was [the city of] Rekha. The gentleman was driving a stolen work utility van. He didn't stop. With us being trigger happy, we didn't really give this guy much of a chance. We lit him up pretty good. Then we inspected the back of the van. We found nothing. No explosives.

Q: The reports said the cars were loaded with explosives. In all the incidents did you find that to be the case?

A: Never. Not once. There were no secondary explosions. As a matter of fact, we lit up a rally after we heard a stray gunshot.

Q: A demonstration? Where?

A: On the outskirts of Baghdad. Near a military compound. There were demonstrators at the end of the street. They were young and they had no weapons. And when we rolled onto the scene, there was already a tank that was parked on the side of the road. If the Iraqis wanted to do something, they could have blown up the tank. But they didn't. They were only holding a demonstration. Down at the end of the road, we saw some RPGs (rocket-propelled grenades) lined up against the wall. That put us at ease because we thought: "Wow, if they were going to blow us up, they would have done it."

Q: Were the protest signs in English or Arabic?

A: Both.

Q: Who gave the order to wipe the demonstrators out?

A: Higher command. We were told to be on the lookout for the civilians because a lot of the Fedayeen and the Republican Guards had tossed away uniforms and put on civilian clothes and were mounting terrorist attacks on American soldiers. The intelligence reports that were given to us were basically known by every member of the chain of command. The rank structure that was implemented in Iraq by the chain of command was evident to every Marine in Iraq. The order to shoot the demonstrators, I believe, came from senior government officials, including intelligence communities within the military and the U.S. government.

Q: What kind of firepower was employed?

A: M-16s, 50-cal. machine guns.

Q: You fired into six or ten kids? Were they all taken out?

A: Oh, yeah. Well, I had a "mercy" on one guy. When we rolled up, he was hiding behind a concrete pillar. I saw him and raised my weapon up, and he put up his hands. He ran off. I told everybody, "Don't shoot." Half of his foot was trailing behind him. So he was running with half of his foot cut off.

Q: After you lit up the demonstration, how long before the next incident?

A: Probably about one or two hours. This is another thing, too. I am so glad I am talking with you, because I suppressed all of this.

Q: Well, I appreciate you giving me the information, as hard as it must be to recall the painful details.

A: That's all right. It's kind of therapy for me. Because it's something that I had repressed for a long time.

Q: And the incident?

A: There was an incident with one of the cars. We shot an individual with his hands up. He got out of the car. He was badly shot. We lit him up. I don't know who started shooting first. One of the Marines came running over to where we were and said: "You all just shot a guy with his hands up." Man, I forgot about this.

Depleted Uranium and Cluster Bombs
Q: You mention machine guns. What can you tell me about cluster bombs, or depleted uranium?

A: Depleted uranium. I know what it does. It's basically like leaving plutonium rods around. I'm 32 years old. I have 80 percent of my lung capacity. I ache all the time. I don't feel like a healthy 32-year-old.

Q: Were you in the vicinity of depleted uranium?

A: Oh, yeah. It's everywhere. DU is everywhere on the battlefield. If you hit a tank, there's dust.

Q: Did you breath any dust?

A: Yeah.

Q: And if DU is affecting you or our troops, it's impacting Iraqi civilians.

A: Oh, yeah. They got a big wasteland problem.

Q: Do Marines have any precautions about dealing with DU?

A: Not that I know of. Well, if a tank gets hit, crews are detained for a little while to make sure there are no signs or symptoms. American tanks have depleted uranium on the sides, and the projectiles have DU in them. If an enemy vehicle gets hit, the area gets contaminated. Dead rounds are in the ground. The civilian populace is just now starting to learn about it. Hell, I didn't even know about DU until two years ago. You know how I found out about it? I read an article in Rolling Stone magazine. I just started inquiring about it, and I said "Holy s---!"

Q: Cluster bombs are also controversial. U.N. commissions have called for a ban. Were you acquainted with cluster bombs?

A: I had one of my Marines in my battalion who lost his leg from an ICBM.

Q: What's an ICBM?

A: A multi-purpose cluster bomb.

Q: What happened?

A: He stepped on it. We didn't get to training about clusters until about a month before I left.

Q: What kind of training?

A: They told us what they looked like, and not to step on them.

Q: Were you in any areas where they were dropped?

A: Oh, yeah. They were everywhere.

Q: Dropped from the air?

A: From the air as well as artillery.

Q: Are they dropped far away from cities, or inside the cities?

A: They are used everywhere. Now if you talked to a Marine artillery officer, he would give you the runaround, the politically correct answer. But for an average grunt, they're everywhere.

Q: Including inside the towns and cities?

A: Yes, if you were going into a city, you knew there were going to be ICBMs.

Q: Cluster bombs are anti-personnel weapons. They are not precise. They don't injure buildings, or hurt tanks. Only people and living things. There are a lot of undetonated duds and they go off after the battles are over.

A: Once the round leaves the tube, the cluster bomb has a mind of its own. There's always human error. I'm going to tell you: The armed forces are in a tight spot over there. It's starting to leak out about the civilian casualties that are taking place. The Iraqis know. I keep hearing reports from my Marine buddies inside that there were 200-something civilians killed in Fallujah. The military is scrambling right now to keep the raps on that. My understanding is Fallujah is just littered with civilian bodies.

Embedded Reporters
Q: How are the embedded reporters responding?

A: I had embedded reporters in my unit, not my platoon. One we had was a South African reporter. He was scared s--less. We had an incident where one of them wanted to go home.

Q: Why?

A: It was when we started going into Baghdad. When he started seeing the civilian casualties, he started wigging out a little bit. It didn't start until we got on the outskirts of Baghdad and started taking civilian casualties.

Q: I would like to go back to the first incident, when the survivor asked why did you kill his brother. Was that the incident that pushed you over the edge, as you put it?

A: Oh, yeah. Later on I found out that was a typical day. I talked with my commanding officer after the incident. He came up to me and says: "Are you OK?" I said: "No, today is not a good day. We killed a bunch of civilians." He goes: "No, today was a good day." And when he said that, I said "Oh, my goodness, what the hell am I into?"

Q: Your feelings changed during the invasion. What was your state of mind before the invasion?

A: I was like every other troop. My president told me they got weapons of mass destruction, that Saddam threatened the free world, that he had all this might and could reach us anywhere. I just bought into the whole thing.

Q: What changed you?

A: The civilian casualties taking place. That was what made the difference. That was when I changed.

Q: Did the revelations that the government fabricated the evidence for war affect the troops?

A: Yes. I killed innocent people for our government. For what? What did I do? Where is the good coming out of it? I feel like I've had a hand in some sort of evil lie at the hands of our government. I just feel embarrassed, ashamed about it.

Showdown with Superiors
Q: I understand that all the incidents - killing civilians at checkpoints, itchy fingers at the rally - weigh on you. What happened with your commanding officers? How did you deal with them?

A: There was an incident. It was right after the fall of Baghdad, when we went back down south. On the outskirts of Karbala, we had a morning meeting on the battle plan. I was not in a good mindset. All these things were going through my head - about what we were doing over there. About some of the things my troops were asking. I was holding it all inside. My lieutenant and I got into a conversation. The conversation was striking me wrong. And I lashed out. I looked at him and told him: "You know, I honestly feel that what we're doing is wrong over here. We're committing genocide."

He asked me something and I said that with the killing of civilians and the depleted uranium we're leaving over here, we're not going to have to worry about terrorists. He didn't like that. He got up and stormed off. And I knew right then and there that my career was over. I was talking to my commanding officer.

Q: What happened then?

A: After I talked to the top commander, I was kind of scurried away. I was basically put on house arrest. I didn't talk to other troops. I didn't want to hurt them. I didn't want to jeopardize them.

I want to help people. I felt strongly about it. I had to say something. When I was sent back to stateside, I went in front of the sergeant major. He's in charge of 3,500-plus Marines. "Sir," I told him, "I don't want your money. I don't want your benefits. What you did was wrong."

It was just a personal conviction with me. I've had an impeccable career. I chose to get out. And you know who I blame? I blame the president of the U.S. It's not the grunt. I blame the president because he said they had weapons of mass destruction. It was a lie.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believe is false."- William Casey, CIA Director 1981

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Post by Alpha » Tue May 18, 2004 9:17 am

Is anyone but me confused by that marine's statment that cluster bombs are ICBMs? I thought ICBM = Intercontinental Ballistic Missile. Cluster bombs are dropped from planes, no? Am I missing something? If not, it would seem to damage the credibility of that story....

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stuart
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Post by stuart » Wed May 19, 2004 2:20 pm

don't know what the I is for but CBM I beleive stands for cluster bomb munition

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Alpha
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Post by Alpha » Wed May 19, 2004 2:26 pm

Thanks for that, Stuart. If the marine said CBM, I could easily see the reporter screwing it up and reporting ICBM. Still, a quick online search turns up the acronym CBU (cluster bomblet unit) much more frequently than CBM... *shrug*

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stuart
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Post by stuart » Wed May 19, 2004 2:30 pm

yeah, the ICBM thing threw me as well. I was all 'holy shit! I didn't know they was using newks over there!'

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Post by technopatra » Wed May 19, 2004 2:38 pm

Yikes, I had the same reaction. When I was a kid during the Reagan administration ICBM meant "inter-continental ballistic missile". We signed treaties to limit their use.

Or maybe we made other people sign treaties, I don't remember.

dragonfly Jafe
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Post by dragonfly Jafe » Wed May 19, 2004 2:48 pm

DE FACTO wrote:So now that the british and the american administrations are under presure, how long do you think it will take to suddenly have some kind of WMD pop up in Iraq ?

Hope there is a PCR/DNA test on anything they find at least.
About 4 months I'd say...

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Post by DVD Burner » Wed May 19, 2004 2:59 pm

dragonfly Jafe wrote:
DE FACTO wrote:So now that the british and the american administrations are under presure, how long do you think it will take to suddenly have some kind of WMD pop up in Iraq ?

Hope there is a PCR/DNA test on anything they find at least.
About 4 months I'd say...
So wait a minute, I'm right every four months on average? :lol:
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