Bad 2006 "RANGERS" stories anyone?

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Bitterman
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Bad 2006 "RANGERS" stories anyone?

Post by Bitterman » Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:14 am

So there are dipsh!ts in any operation, but heres a little story aboot a bitch-ass macho insecurity afflicted "ranger" from 2006, calling himself "MONGOLIA" -
In a group of many Rangers walking towards the Belgian Burn, this asshat decides that charging a robot is in order, yelling "you cant be here" and then pushing the 6ft tall 200+lb machine to the ground.
This damaged the Operating systems, and also broke the "tip-over" weld struts.
This happened nowhere near the burn perimeter, and there was no robot provocation.
He bum-rushed the machine, and only his base-head knows why.
Its also all on tape.
The other Rangers eventually set the machine upright, then they walked-off.
Subsequently we heard 2 other negative "Mongolia" stories from neighbors in the 3:00 'hood, so now we're curious as to who else may have encountered a "Ranger w/Power Issues//Macho Insecurity" - anyone?

Will be searching out this idiot asap w/ our south park episode "screw yew Mongolians" audio loop -
what a goddamnmotherfuckingsonofabitch............

BM
Bah! Psshhh!

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Post by cornelius » Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:52 am

(having major computer issues or I would'a posted here sooner...)

WTF is your PROBLEM Mongoloid? You don't run up and attack a 4-digit project like the robot. If I'm not mistaken people have been ejected and black listed from the event for attacking and damaging the "art". Just cause you wear the guise of "Ranger" doesn't give you the right. What, were you picked on by robots in High School or something? Is the robot's penis bigger that yours? I still can't understand why you would run up to him, grab him by the support frame, pull him to the ground and start kicking him. (roid rage or mental problems?) He wasn't even engaging any HU-mans at the time. (we've got the video) You should be ejected from the proud ranks of the Black Rock Rangers and banned from Black Rock City. Also, you WILL pay for the hundreds of dollars of damage done to our robot. I am a member of TEAM ROBOT and I am so fucking pissed off. It took the Robot Master a week to calm down enough to even tell the story. We may be geeks, but we will stomp you into the dust if you ever come near our Bot again. He is family to us. I know that 99.9% of the Rangers are good natured and hard working individuals who take pride in what they do. It seems like you just want to pretend you're a bad ass cop or something. Don't take out your personal misgivings on others. And by the way, our Robot DOES belong in Black Rock City. He was born on the Playa for Crissakes. Thanks for showing your true colors this year, now the Rangers can throw away the bad apple in their midst.
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Post by dj_john69 » Thu Sep 07, 2006 4:20 pm

Is this the same robot from Reno ?? From Swoosh Ink ?? Thats fucked up !! This asshole needs to pay up for the damages !! Anyone have any info about the asshole known as "Mongoloid" ?? Where he might be from ?? His real name ?? If so, please pm BITTER or CORNELIUS asap...thanks.

This cocksucker doesnt need to be part of BM...PERIOD !!!

~John

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Post by d6 » Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:05 pm

1st - I was not present for this, I only have the perspective from the 'Bot cameras footage-
and well, I cant speak for the other posts, but heres whats up:

I filed "complaints" (if you will), direct, and the responses were timely, concise and aptly conveyed the Rangers points of view - in the 12 year history of our camp, this was the 1st negative w/ a Ranger -

YES, it was our (re:?no!)'Bot that got toppled Sunday,
and the Rangers,
they see it their way: basically as the 'Bot as a potential threat inside of the Belgian Burn perimeter, hazardous and not "stopping" when commanded - disabled to save the community from possible harm - they did what they felt they had to - one of many judgement calls madethroughout the week(s) -

2nd - and this is my take based on the info I have:
The 'Bot was not / will not // has not ever been a threat to anyones safety, was not close to potentially violating the safety zones, and deserved 5 seconds of face-to-face, instead of the charged low grab to the bottom frame knock over technique -
regardless of who is operating, we always stop to speak with someone in front of the machine, especially if interference from someone elses operating channel wipes out our audio - it makes it tricky to hear you unless you're right in front.
the video doesnt show the ranger(s) in front until the knock-down, and there is no audible "stop" on tape.

My response was to "agree to disagree" -
It seems reasonable enough from both sides, each with a very distinct perception of what "really happened", that there will always be a difference of opinion. But I'm also not the 'Bots Master..........
3rd-
mostpeople dont react well when they feel unjustly "attacked" - just as most psuedo-security-police types dont like not being heard / obeyed - i've worked enough door in my many long punk days to know this as a universal truth -

4th - ugh. I'm f'n tired, and over being the "liason" for this sh!t.Whatever else does or doesn't happen, it's not going to be through me.

d6,
re:?no! bastard, mother bitches!
your witty rejoinder just flew over my head.....

no trust fund getting supply buying self-reliant non-bankrolled questionable artistic contributor sacrificing electronics at will build it destroy it clean it haul it financially uninterested uber-bot

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Post by geekster » Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:05 pm

There could be several rangers with similar names but I have to ask ... have you attempted to take this up privately with the Black Rock Rangers department first? They might be able to get this cleared up quicker than posting here since the people that can possibly get things sorted out probably don't read this board. While it is interesting reading and all, not many of us can do a whole lot for you. There could be more to the story than meets the eye and I doubt it could be properly looked into in this forum.

Sorry to hear about the art and I hope you are able to get things resolved somehow.
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Post by daMongolian » Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:13 pm

ok, so first, it was the Temple Burn, and the robot was in fact inside the perimeter being established by the Rangers, what follows is an excerpt of the briefing that I gave the Ranger Dept head earlier today on this very topic.

<snip>
this was Sunday evening, as we were starting to sweep out the perimeter for the Temple Burn, all of a sudden, I noted a robot (on wheels) about 6 ft tall rapidly approaching the temple (already beyond the rangers closest to it) so I took off towards it, with <my immediate supervisor> yelling at me to run, so I laid on the speed got in front of it about 20 feet from the temple (the line that had been set up as the initial perimeter) it paused then lurched forward again, I scanned the area where it seemed to have come from, and couldn't discern anyone responsible for it, so, making a quick judgment I tipped it onto it's back and let it down easy, (didn't drop it, but set it down) Shortly after, a member of the Temple Crew came over and helped me right it, and we got it turned around, after some interaction with 'it' even so, I still wasn't sure or completely comfortable with it's actions or intentions, so I was ready to tip it again, another Ranger...I don't recall who, came over who apparently was familiar with it, and the owner and offered to escort it outside the now complete circle.
</snip>

based on all of this, I stand by my original assessment and actions.

That, is all I have to say on this subject.
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Post by d6 » Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:46 pm

Thanks fer posting your side, D.M. -
that clears up alot of the questions I had based on the footage -
Not being there Sunday, confusing Belgian w/ Temple = my mistake.
I was very impressed w/ the Rangers private responses, and overall feel much better - even though it doesnt matter that we'll never fully agree -
judgement calls = opinions kinda thing.

and again, for me, I'm done - I need to sleep -


d6,
still a fat-sagging bastard,mother bitches!
your witty rejoinder just flew over my head.....

no trust fund getting supply buying self-reliant non-bankrolled questionable artistic contributor sacrificing electronics at will build it destroy it clean it haul it financially uninterested uber-bot

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yo

Post by Lysergic » Fri Sep 08, 2006 2:36 am

can someone post or send me a link to the video plz?
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Post by Booker » Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:12 am

From my vantage point on the esplanade, I can say that overall DPW shows much more respect in their driving than do Rangers. Maybe the Rangers have to hurry to respond to calls or something, but their SUVs were consistently speeding along the esplanade and across the open playa, where DPW vehicles typically moved at a manageable pace.

Been thinking about that contrast, esp. in light of DPW's reputation for making their own rules, and I wanted to put it out there.

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Post by DarthVegan » Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:59 am

If you're referring to SUV's with "RANGER" emblazened on the side -- those are BLM Rangers. Black Rock Rangers, if they do drive, have a variety of personal vehicles with the BRR logo usually on the side doors.

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Post by cornelius » Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:09 am

Mongolian I appreciate your post, but that still doesn't explain the excessive use of force. If you gently set him down like you say there wouldn't have been so much damage. Our 'bot is fully interactive. He understands binary AND english. He responds well to HU-mans. He was built for HU-man interaction fer crissakes. You didn't even try to talk to him. If he was a human you wouldn't have just poured on the speed, adrenaline pumping, trying to look tuff in front of your peers, thinking you're Mangus Robot Fighter knocking him to the ground. In the robot's short life he's had numerous interactions with police officers, security guards and the like. All of them positive, even if his actions were being questioned by said officer. In this case it seems no communication was attempted. In the role of Ranger you have to be more cool headed and less reactionary. You have to think on your feet and use your brain. Bad call brotha. Bad call. Maybe you should just take a year off and relax.
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Post by geekster » Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:14 am

Based on daMongolian's reply, I believe he was reasonable and I will explain why I believe so.

He was not familiar with this piece of art or its owner. It had penetrated the perimiter. Does this robot have flame effects? Might it be a prankster attempting to start the temple burn early? Is it out of control? Who the heck knows at that point. It has penetrated the perimiter and is headed to the temple with unknown capability and intentions. The best thing to do is to get it off its wheels or otherwise disable it, which he did. Had it been me, I might have been tempted to cut it in half and return both pieces of moop to the owner. I don't say that to be snarky, I say that to explain that intentionally sending an unknown/unplanned mechanical device to penetrate a perimiter or having an out of control piece of art places people in potential danger. There is a team in that temple with fuel preparing for a burn. Rangers aren't your mommy.
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Post by geekster » Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:28 am

DarthVegan wrote:If you're referring to SUV's with "RANGER" emblazened on the side -- those are BLM Rangers. Black Rock Rangers, if they do drive, have a variety of personal vehicles with the BRR logo usually on the side doors.

Emerald
Also, BLM rangers will generally have a light bar with emergency colors (red/blue) while Black Rock Rangers will have yellow caution.
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Post by spectabillis » Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:49 am

whatever geekster. i still remember your discussion that me being intimate with someone on the playa would motivate you to approach me under the suspicion that i was sexually assaulting someone. yeah, thanks for your judgementally authoritative stance on caution to justify those reactions.



i second the vid request.

cant help but go with my latest experiences in being dissatisfied with the attitude and behavior of some rangers, especially when i read more than one story surrounding a specific one. if the vid backs the rangers story, not a problem.

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Post by cornelius » Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:49 am

geekster wrote:Does this robot have flame effects? Might it be a prankster attempting to start the temple burn early? Is it out of control?
Lessee...flame effects, NO. Prankster, POSSIBLY. Deliberately destroying another person's project, NEVER. Out of control, NOT EVEN CLOSE.

Look...threatening statements like, you woulda cut him in half, NOT NECESSARY. Name calling? Moop? If our robot is MOOP than so are you. He might be a robot but he's got feelings too (or at least he's programmed to pretend). All he wants to do is interact with HU-mans and spread love and mirth. He didn't realize he had penetrated the perimeter. Lack of communication people, that's the root of this conflict.

:cry:
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Post by spectabillis » Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:53 am

cornelius wrote: Lack of communication people, that's the root of this conflict.
communications cant help a situation when people are more interested in protecting an image or justifying actions.

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Post by geekster » Fri Sep 08, 2006 10:26 am

cornelius wrote:
geekster wrote:Does this robot have flame effects? Might it be a prankster attempting to start the temple burn early? Is it out of control?
Lessee...flame effects, NO. Prankster, POSSIBLY. Deliberately destroying another person's project, NEVER. Out of control, NOT EVEN CLOSE.

Look...threatening statements like, you woulda cut him in half, NOT NECESSARY. Name calling? Moop? If our robot is MOOP than so are you. He might be a robot but he's got feelings too (or at least he's programmed to pretend). All he wants to do is interact with HU-mans and spread love and mirth. He didn't realize he had penetrated the perimeter. Lack of communication people, that's the root of this conflict.

:cry:
My point was that the ranger could not possibly know these things. There is a reason for creating a perimiter and that is for the safety of the participants gathering to experiance the burn and the participants preparing the burn. As far as I know ranger training doesn't include mind reading. At that point you are dealing with potentials.

If you intentionally sent that object through a perimiter then I would probably call you a name too. That ranger could not possibly have any idea why that robot was there or what the intentions were. If you were not aware it had crossed the perimiter or if it penetrated the perimiter in an autonomous mode of operation without your direct supervision then again, it is irresponsible behavior on your part.

What you are doing is attempting to mitigate consequences for irresponsible actions by placing the blame for the consequences on someone else.

Oh, and after it was cut in half it would then be moop ... not when it was a functioning robot. That's the reason I wouldn't make a good ranger. I generally have great respect for people and tolerate a wide range of behaviors and cultures but I don't tolerate people placing blame for the consequences of their own actions (or lack thereof) onto others well.
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Post by daMongolian » Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:39 am

wow.....I don't know that I even have to say anything....Geekster seems to have said it already.

Yes, I had no idea or inkling of the intentions of said Robot, or it's operator, I also wasn't completely familiar with what type of pyro prep had taken place on the Temple, I know that The Man, is usually shut down all day while they load fuel and fireworks, and that the Temple is generally something less than that, but since I had arrived on scene approx 10 minutes prior to this, I really had no way of knowing for sure what was 'in' the temple. I had about 5 seconds to make a decision, not receiving a positive reaction from the robot (turning around) or being able to sight an operator caused me to react as I did, had I encountered the robot in Center Camp, at the cafe I would likely have been more jovial and joked around with it.

Lack of communication? Sure, but I place that blame on the operator for that. Personally if I had a remote controlled device worth that much, I'd make sure that I was within eyeshot and earshot of anyone it was interacting with. I saw no such thing, when I laid it on it's back no one was yelling and screaming from the sidelines. NO ONE.

Again, I stand by my decisions and actions.

For what it's worth, Rangers are very passive and non reactionary during 90% of their time. The other 10% they need to be tough and unwavering, that's during Burn Perimeters, and that's exactly what this situation was.

I am sorry there was damage to said robot, that was not my intention. Preventing it from further breaching the perimeter and doing who knows what, (possibly early ignition of the temple?) WAS my intention.

Again, remember I had no idea or way of knowing the intentions here. But this was a year with a widespread 'campaign' to burn The Man on Wednesday, so we know the yahoo and bozo factor is in effect.

daMongolian

geekster wrote:
cornelius wrote:
geekster wrote:Does this robot have flame effects? Might it be a prankster attempting to start the temple burn early? Is it out of control?
Lessee...flame effects, NO. Prankster, POSSIBLY. Deliberately destroying another person's project, NEVER. Out of control, NOT EVEN CLOSE.

Look...threatening statements like, you woulda cut him in half, NOT NECESSARY. Name calling? Moop? If our robot is MOOP than so are you. He might be a robot but he's got feelings too (or at least he's programmed to pretend). All he wants to do is interact with HU-mans and spread love and mirth. He didn't realize he had penetrated the perimeter. Lack of communication people, that's the root of this conflict.

:cry:
My point was that the ranger could not possibly know these things. There is a reason for creating a perimiter and that is for the safety of the participants gathering to experiance the burn and the participants preparing the burn. As far as I know ranger training doesn't include mind reading. At that point you are dealing with potentials.

If you intentionally sent that object through a perimiter then I would probably call you a name too. That ranger could not possibly have any idea why that robot was there or what the intentions were. If you were not aware it had crossed the perimiter or if it penetrated the perimiter in an autonomous mode of operation without your direct supervision then again, it is irresponsible behavior on your part.

What you are doing is attempting to mitigate consequences for irresponsible actions by placing the blame for the consequences on someone else.

Oh, and after it was cut in half it would then be moop ... not when it was a functioning robot. That's the reason I wouldn't make a good ranger. I generally have great respect for people and tolerate a wide range of behaviors and cultures but I don't tolerate people placing blame for the consequences of their own actions (or lack thereof) onto others well.
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Post by dj_john69 » Fri Sep 08, 2006 1:48 pm

Why are rangers getting attitudes on the Playa these days ??

I ran across a few asshole rangers this year. Why would they be assholes to burners ?? Isnt the the LEO's job ?? There is NO fucking excuss for a ranger to abuse their power while in BRC !!

Mongolia...you NEED to pay for the damages !!! If not, you do NOT deserve to be a ranger !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Post by spectabillis » Fri Sep 08, 2006 1:58 pm

geekster wrote: My point was that the ranger could not possibly know these things.
yep, thats almost word-per-word of a comment you said about approaching someone being intimate on the playa as being under suspicion of sexually assaulting someone.



i still say just post the vid.

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Post by spectabillis » Fri Sep 08, 2006 2:00 pm

daMongolian wrote:Again, remember I had no idea or way of knowing the intentions here. But this was a year with a widespread 'campaign' to burn The Man on Wed
OMFG TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS HOMELAND SECURITY LEVEL HIGH RED RED RED

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Post by geekster » Fri Sep 08, 2006 2:15 pm

spectabillis wrote:
geekster wrote: My point was that the ranger could not possibly know these things.
yep, thats almost word-per-word of a comment you said about approaching someone being intimate on the playa as being under suspicion of sexually assaulting someone.



i still say just post the vid.
Hmm, has that been some time ago? I don't recall a conversation along those lines that I was involved in ... not sayin in didn't happen ... just sayin I don't remember a conversation about making out / sexual assault that I was involved in. Maybe a link could refresh my memory and provide context for what I said?
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Post by spectabillis » Fri Sep 08, 2006 2:23 pm

just search the 3ply

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Post by geekster » Fri Sep 08, 2006 2:33 pm

spectabillis wrote:just search the 3ply
okay, thanks

ADDED:

And I want to clarify something in my thinking here:



Had a ranger done this on the open playa, yeah, he would have a gripe. That the piece was headed toward a piece being readied to burn and he could not see who was controlling it, the only logical choice would be to stop it as quickly as possible. The piece had been allowed by the owner to enter into an exclusion area. Had it not be daMongolian, I feel it would simply have been a different ranger that did the same thing ... stop the piece first and try to sort it out later. I don't believe daMongolian had set out with the intention to damage the piece, his intention seems to be to stop it as quickly as possible. In the process there was some damage. The extent of the damage hasn't exactly been made clear nor have I seen the video.

Now off to look up that other thing.
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Post by geekster » Fri Sep 08, 2006 2:59 pm

I couldn't find it over there but I am not exactly sure what I am supposed to be searching on either.

What I ment by the mind reading thing was that when someone or something penetrates the perimeter, the rangers can't know what the intentions are of the penetrator and so the reaction is always the same ... stop it/them and then sort it out. How do you stop a 6-foot robot in a hurry? Get it off it's wheels. Sorry, I just don't see anything unreasonable in that. If you own a piece of art and you don't want to see it handled roughly, don't let it wander through a burn perimeter. There are probably only two places at Burning Man where something moving is going to be stopped with gusto. One is a burn perimeter. I have seen people handled roughly attempting to cross a burn perimeter too.
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Post by ckburn » Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:07 pm

I've known DaMongolian as a Ranger for several years. In my experience he reacts appropriately and "Rangerly" to the kinds of things Black Rock Rangers run across on the Playa. From the descriptions of the robot's activities from BOTH viewpoints (DaMongolian's and Cornelius'), it sounds to me like DaMongolian acted appropriately and Rangerly. He was charged with the duty of protecting the participants that night. When the machine became a threat to that safety, it had to be disabled. The quickest way was laying it down. Apparently temple crew and Rangers came back and helped get it back where it belonged. That was nice of them, and certainly not required.

Expecting people (HU-mans??? wft is that all about? makes this whole thread seem like a bit of a joke...) to interact with a piece of machinery on a burn perimeter is just stupid. These folks don't have time for games.

I am disappointed to hear that we still have asshole Rangers out there, when we spend many hours trying to weed them out. I would be quite interested in hearing further details, either publicly on e-playa or privately via email. I would be happy to bring that info to the folks responsible for the weeding out.

Curtis

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Post by Dork » Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:11 pm

I'm with Geekster unless more information comes out. The Rangers main responsibility in that situation is to keep people out of the burn area. A person-like object (was it big enough to possibly contain a person?) starts charging and may or may not be under control or may be out for mischief, the logical thing to do is figure out a way to stop it.

There's no reason to operate the robot in that manner other than to screw with people and try to provoke a reaction, which is exactly what happened.

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Post by geekster » Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:15 pm

Curtis,

I have also worked with him before but in a different department and that is probably also influencing my take on things. I would give daMongolian the benefit of the doubt based on my experiance with the guy.

Oh, and while everyone has their eyes glued here for reports of bad ranger conduct, I would like to take the opportunity to express my gratitude to one ranger Foxfire (I think that was what he said his name was, it was noisy) for clearing out a path for our art car after the Belgian burn. He saw that we were having a bit of a problem negotiating the bikes and knots of people that ended up surrounding what was originally a fairly clear spot when we pulled in and began assisting us in clearing a safe exit path out of the area. Thank you.
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Post by d6 » Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:34 pm

My "good Ranger" kudos go out to SEA DOG.
He was the one who responded to my inquiry in a totally professional manner.
I laid out on my above posts my feelings about this whole "incident" -
they remain the same.

The 'Bots master -(i am but a worker bee and occasional operator#3 & am also the camps 'throat') is the one who may / may not post video, almost everyone involved has had public and private discussions, and we're all "sticking to our guns", such as they are.

as far as i know the bot remains unpacked and in some state of dismantled-ness (due to the return trip - not this topic),
and I'll now try to relay this to you all in a different way: if both sides can have elements of being "right" - then both can certainly have elements of being "wrong".
happens every day.
just like an 8 yr old pounding out "smoke on the water" on the guitar - what 8yr old these days would even know of "smoke" you say? - its an inherent human trait - just like multiple sides to every story!

Once a direct communcation was established, I felt progress was made:::

communication = information = (possible)solution.

Unless of course, you're dealing with someone who never makes mistakes, and lives in a wonderful fantasy land were all of their hallucinations are total reality................................like me.

Gotta go, I'm accepting a laureate for my work with the Mohs Scale.....

d6,
hark-hark-harkened he - the scurviest bastard to ever sail the sea........
intelligentsia impaler mach fuckin three!
your witty rejoinder just flew over my head.....

no trust fund getting supply buying self-reliant non-bankrolled questionable artistic contributor sacrificing electronics at will build it destroy it clean it haul it financially uninterested uber-bot

spectabillis
Posts: 3527
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:07 pm
Burning Since: 2020
Location: black rock city

Post by spectabillis » Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:20 pm

ckburn wrote:Expecting people (HU-mans??? wft is that all about? makes this whole thread seem like a bit of a joke...) to interact with a piece of machinery on a burn perimeter is just stupid. These folks don't have time for games.
well gee, thanks for your dismissive value judgement and placing your concerns above others, i am sure everyone appreciates it. 'stupid' definately deserves a star.



despite if the ranger knew it or not, its blatently obvious at this point there was absolutely no danger. yet right now thats not even being acknowledged in a hopeful attempt to make sure mis-understandings can be cleared and the situation handled better. you think the artists that built this robot would not be upset? of course they would, that should also be blatently obvious and you would hope your training could help you see that.

the reaction you are seeing from rangers here is really disappointing. i used to be one of the more vocal supporters of what they did in face of criticism - but after this year, not anymore. what you are seeing here is defensive justifications. sure i understand a natural tendency to defend onself but this is just getting sad.

rangers are not cops, but you guys sure as hell are starting to develop the attitude of them.

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