Barlow essay on Burning Man and Schwartzenegger

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diane o'thirst
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Re: "RESPECTING" their native tongue-WTF does [i]t

Post by diane o'thirst » Tue Nov 04, 2003 1:25 am

I am reminded of that bit of silliness on the web, an ad for a parody book of Protesting For Dummies. There was a blurb on the cover that said, "•How to shout down your opponent when they start making sense!" I think the Race Card™, very unhappily, has become the equivalent of the old leftist discussion-ender tactic of calling their opponent Manacheistic (sp?) and the online thread-killer "Hitler."

Anyway, hence the :roll:

I say "unhappily" because it's overused so much and often so baselessly it's become almost a cliché and when something racist REALLY happens, and someone calls it, everyone rolls their eyes and walks away.

I didn't pay it any mind. He just wanted to "win" the discussion fast and dirty, Logic be damned.

By the way, I was going to make a comment on Calif. Prop 187 but the board started giving me trouble: I read the numbers the next day and guess who supported it most strongly and were the majority among the "Yes" voters? LEGAL Immigrants and their families. Arnie's an immigrant so I'm not entirely surprised to hear he supported it. Who voted against it? Urban college-age white boys 'n girls, most of whom were born there... :lol:
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joel the ornery
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Re: "RESPECTING" their native tongue-WTF does [i]t

Post by joel the ornery » Tue Nov 04, 2003 1:34 am

aforceforgood wrote: If we say that immigrants should learn the language of the land we're racists or something? Huh? Why?

Uh, no, yet learning the language is voluntary... But when people act against someone based up race, creed, color, religion, ethnic origin, age, sex or disability THEN those actions against said people are/become illegal.

You can be prejudiced but you can't discriminate.

Have a nice equal opportunity day.

f*cking people suck, give me trees anyday.
Last edited by joel the ornery on Tue Nov 04, 2003 1:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by DE FACTO » Tue Nov 04, 2003 1:40 am

:shock: :?

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Post by BlueBirdPoof » Tue Nov 04, 2003 6:35 am

Can someone please clarify just how much english we are expecting immigrants to learn?
My mother, who took German in high school and college and then lived in Hamburg for a year or two says at the end of that time she had about enough to go grocery shopping. (Although at one point she could read Geothe in the original--IF there was a side-by-side translation.) My sister, who as a toddler spoke better German than English, took German in jr. high, high school and college worked in a resort in Bavaria after graduation and seems to have functioned at about a Spanish-speaking hotel maid in this country level. My father, who moved to this country at ~7 still speaks English with a noticible accent, although fluently, but he has flawed German. He spoke it only in his family, so never learned the formal address. When he's in Germany he skates by, because the Germans think he's cute. (I presume that means that they can tell he is a forigner, by some sort of speech and behavoiral cues.)
Linguists, who have given it more thought and have more experience than most of us, consider that there is a window of opportunity for fluency that ends in late adolescence. So what competency are we asking for. I don't think that either my mother or my sister could, for instance, follow a German voting pamphlet easily, and might well need a german-english dictionary. I can't imagine that they could get all the nuance of a political debate--even one in which the candidates are pretty much giving canned answers. Some small nuance of word placement could through off the entire understanding of road law in a DMV pamflet.
I remember my own experiences traveling. Trying to ask the simplest questions could not only tax my weak grasp of German or Spanish, but really tired me physically. Admittedly, 6 weeks is different than living someplace else permanently, but I suspect that many emigrants don't have a lot of time to sit down and seriously study, and few of them can afford tutors. (I bet that's how Arnold gets, or at least, got by.)
And, I don't think that immigrants are lazier today than before. The phenomena of having one's children or grandchildren translate is a cliche that goes back at least 100 years.
I also expect that at least some americans are so aggrevated by listening through a heavy accent, that they consider that to not be speaking english, no matter how able the syntax.

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Post by Rob the Wop » Tue Nov 04, 2003 7:03 am

I think my biggest issue was the attempt (don't remember if it ever succeeded) to create "Spanish only" public schools. You may have problems with learning English, but teaching your kids to learn only Spanish in America- in order to "preserve your culture"- is plain bullshit. Your culture is now American culture when you made the decision to live in the States. Keep your traditions alive, but realize that you made a choice to be here. Don't try to force the culture you live in to change into your old one.
[b]The other, other white meat.[/b]

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Post by Tiara » Tue Nov 04, 2003 8:08 am

Rob the Wop wrote:"Spanish only" public schools.
I'm not an educator, so my experience/knowledge about this is limited. But I'm not familiar with "Spanish only" public schools, or for that matter, any other "non-English-language-only" public schools.

Throughout college, I tutored at a middle school in Pomona, CA. Most of the students were not native English speakers. They had English classes every day. But several other subjects were taught in Spanish and other languages. The goal of doing that was to make sure that the kids learned age-appropriate things in math, science, history, etc. Teaching those subjects in English to kids who were working hard to grasp the language would have been a struggle, if for no other reason than the specialized vocabularies related to those subjects.

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Re: "RESPECTING" their native tongue-WTF does [i]t

Post by Don Muerto » Tue Nov 04, 2003 8:09 am

aforceforgood wrote:Well, actually, that question was directed at Don Muerto, since he's kindly adopted the devil's advocate position in this little debate- (or maybe, duh, I just realized that Don Muerto could be hispanic or latino or whatever the fock the PC term is today, maybe Don is hisplachicatino) and just to head off the "Well, forcing them to learn english is destroying the mexican culture!" argument before that shit even gets started, I wanna say this before I forget it;

And anyways, if your freakin culture is so great, then what're you doing here? Yeah, yeah, I know, economics, and you know, I like a lot about latino culture, their strong family ties, passion, etc., but I think you see my point.
I cannot believe that you have retreated from illogical ramblings to racism and personal attacks. Let's be clear, I never said "Well, forcing them to learn english is destroying the mexican culture!" I said that a benefit of multilingualism is that "the culture that comes with the language is added to, and enhances, our own."

If you put English speakers in a Mexico that specifically and intentionally marginalized them through their language, they too would be unable to get good jobs or move ahead ala the fabled 'American Dream,' and the Mexicans would lose out on English language gems such as untranslated Shakespeare, surfer-speak, and our love affair with the word 'fuck.'
aforceforgood wrote:If your culture is so fucking weak that learning english can kill it then it deserves to die. (copyright2003)
No culture is 'weak.' What your statement expresses is racism and cultural imperialism. Feel free to copyright it, -I find it repugnant.

I suppose those Native Americans deserved to die of smallpox because of their 'weak' immunce systems, and that all the Africans killed in Europe's colonies had it coming because their culture had 'inferior' technology in their implements of war. Survival of the fittest. What's theirs is ours because we are bigger/stronger/tougher/smarter/better armed. It's *so* obvious that this principle indicates who is at the 'pinnacle' of the 'evolved.' Want to go kick some lower life-forms with me?
aforceforgood wrote:Ok, I'd like to add another question- re; "RESPECTING" (or disrespecting, whatever) their native tongue-WTF does that mean? Or is it just one of those stupid slogans that get tossed around that have no real meaning, but can be used against anyone who dares mention that teaching people english might be a good idea? since it does mean nothing, people feel free to just rip that one out there without fear of having to explain it because it's unexplainable? And unassailable since no one fucking knows what it means to disrespect someone's tongue, so if a mexican says you're doing that, well, then, I guess you just are.

If we say that immigrants should learn the language of the land we're racists or something? Huh? Why?
I do find it amusing how you answer your own rhetorical questions, but the answers don't actually hold water. Nobody here is advocating immigrants *not* learning English, and I think you would be hard pressed to show that immigrants in America are not interested in learning the language or that they have an agenda to steal America from the Americans through cultural subversion.

Can you please try your hardest to understand the following sentences:

<i>There is a world of difference between encouraging people to learn the language of the land, and excluding them for not already knowing it. Immigrants without English language skills should not be prevented from participation in civic life, nor given second-rate educational opportunities.</i>

In your system, at what point are people allowed to participate and learn? When they can read a ballot they are qualified to vote? When they can understand the teacher then they have the opportunity to learn? Until then they should stay out of school until English/Americanism seeps into their being via osmotic processes?

You can make crazy arguments all day, but the plain fact of the matter is that US English was a racist organization with the racist goal of preserving participation in American life for only those that can access the language.

Respecting a culture means that you do not adopt the bullshit "Leave your culture at the door" mentality. America is a <u>nation of immigrants</u>, I find it particularly rich that the older waves (English, Irish, French, etc.) are so willing to call themselves 'Americans' and use that to exclude the newer waves. If there is a truly 'American' culture, its remnants exist only on the reservations the Europeans forced the Native Americans onto.

Did English become the language of America because your immigrant ancestors 'Left their culture, and language at the door?' Or was it that the Native cultures were so 'weak' that our naturally superior one took it's rightful place ala Manifest Destiny?
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

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Re: "RESPECTING" their native tongue-WTF does [i]t

Post by Don Muerto » Tue Nov 04, 2003 8:26 am

diane o'thirst wrote:I read the numbers the next day and guess who supported it most strongly and were the majority among the "Yes" voters? LEGAL Immigrants and their families. Arnie's an immigrant so I'm not entirely surprised to hear he supported it. Who voted against it? Urban college-age white boys 'n girls, most of whom were born there... :lol:
Well, I will get you a solid cite later, but actually slightly less than 4 of 5 latino voters opposed 187 *and* they turned out in record numbers to do so.
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Post by stuart » Tue Nov 04, 2003 10:01 am

personally, if I were to move to another country with a different native language, I would do my best to learn that language. But that's just me. That being said, a reminder to all, this country has no official language. The founders did that on purpose. It is only by matter of rolls of the dice vis a vis immigration that we do not speak, say, dutch, spanish, or french. Now, seeing as the folks in charge are currrently proponents of states rights (except where elections are concerned) what do we do when a majority of folks in California are native spanish speakers? Well, if the founders had their way, si habla espanyol [sic]. Believe it. When I run into spanish speaking folks in L.A. who also speak english, we call that 'bilingual', I sometimes think to myself 'good for them, they speak more languages than I do'. Be pragmatic. I think someone would be better served if they spoke english, but I live in L.A. and wouldn't I be better served if I also spoke spanish? Your fuckin right I would be.

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Post by Don Muerto » Tue Nov 04, 2003 10:08 am

Tiara wrote:They had English classes every day. But several other subjects were taught in Spanish and other languages. The goal of doing that was to make sure that the kids learned age-appropriate things in math, science, history, etc. Teaching those subjects in English to kids who were working hard to grasp the language would have been a struggle, if for no other reason than the specialized vocabularies related to those subjects.
This is at the heart of what is wrong with US English's stance. (thanks Tiara)

Preventing education until English is learned would put these children (and adults) way behind. I have yet to see any goal in public policy remotely akin to teaching immigrant kids in Spanish with no moves towards English fluency.
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Post by Don Muerto » Tue Nov 04, 2003 11:07 am

Here you go, diane:

Field Poll Results for 1994
(see page 5)

"Support for Prop. 187 was strongest among white non-hispanic voters (+28 points), and especially white males (+38 points). Latinos, on the other hand, voted No by a 73% to 23% margin. Blacks and Asians divided about evenly, with 52% voting in favor and 48% opposed."
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eaaase back on the hysterical reactions people please

Post by aforceforgood » Tue Nov 04, 2003 11:31 am

Don Muerto wrote:
aforceforgood wrote:Well, actually, that question was directed at Don Muerto, since he's kindly adopted the devil's advocate position in this little debate- (or maybe, duh, I just realized that Don Muerto could be hispanic or latino or whatever the fock the PC term is today, maybe Don is hisplachicatino) and just to head off the "Well, forcing them to learn english is destroying the mexican culture!" argument before that shit even gets started, I wanna say this before I forget it;

If your culture is so weak that learning english can kill it, then it deserves to die.

And anyways, if your freakin culture is so great, then what're you doing here? Yeah, yeah, I know, economics, and you know, I like a lot about latino culture, their strong family ties, passion, etc., but I think you see my point.
I cannot believe that you have retreated from illogical ramblings to racism and personal attacks. Let's be clear, I never said "Well, forcing them to learn english is destroying the mexican culture!" I said that a benefit of multilingualism is that "the culture that comes with the language is added to, and enhances, our own."
And I can't believe that a guy with your sharp sense of humor totally missed the humor in that post, and decided instead to have an illogical emotional response to it. Get a clue man. If you hadn't worked yourself into an emotional frenzy, you would've seen that I DON'T want them to lose their culture, I said so, and I think we can learn from them in some respects, namely family ties, etc.

And what was a personal attack in that, the word hisplachcatino? Or when I wondered if you were hispanic? Sheesh, lighten up francis.

The culture that adds to and enhances our own only does that if there's communication. Who has more responsibility to learn to communicate- my 80 year old grandma, the employer, the government that will have to spend millions of our taxes reprinting forms in spanish (and more and more languages as time goes by now that that precedent's been set) or the 20 year old immigrant who came here because he wanted to be part of America? Isn't he in fact voting with his feet that this place is better for him than where he was? How then is it logical for him to join political action groups and demand that everything be put into his language? I'm not saying he has to give up his culture, I'm just saying that those who do that are like if I went to a party and demanded they play what kind of music I wanted to hear.
Don Muerto wrote:If you put English speakers in a Mexico that specifically and intentionally marginalized them through their language,
Look, you seem to be associating me with this US English group, whatever they are, and I've never said don't teach kids math and whatnot in spanish until they have a chance to learn english, I'm just saying our focus should be to set up a system where they are expected to learn english, not a system that coddles them and enables them to never learn it, keeping them weak, keeping them working low-paying jobs, and dependent upon politicians who are dependent upon immigrants who want someone to protect them from what they've propagandized us common-sense people to be. The racists have given us a bad name, so that anytime I start talking about a problem that is largely associated with one race I get called a racist, and that shit is so fucking tired.
aforceforgood wrote:If your culture is so fucking weak that learning english can kill it then it deserves to die. (copyright2003)
Don Muerto wrote:No culture is 'weak.' What your statement expresses is racism and cultural imperialism. Feel free to copyright it, -I find it repugnant.
No, what it expresses, if you can calm down and read it, is a commonsense point delivered with humor, which you have emotionally reacted to, and PC'd into a racist comment. The underlying message is this, just to make it easy for you; Of course learning english will not kill your culture, that's silly. Thanks for playing the race card Don. Now your emotions are all enflamed and this is an all-out pissing match, not an intelligent discussion.


aforceforgood wrote:Ok, I'd like to add another question- re; "RESPECTING" (or disrespecting, whatever) their native tongue-WTF does that mean? Or is it just one of those stupid slogans that get tossed around that have no real meaning, but can be used against anyone who dares mention that teaching people english might be a good idea? since it does mean nothing, people feel free to just rip that one out there without fear of having to explain it because it's unexplainable? And unassailable since no one fucking knows what it means to disrespect someone's tongue, so if a mexican says you're doing that, well, then, I guess you just are.

If we say that immigrants should learn the language of the land we're racists or something? Huh? Why?
Don Muerto wrote:Nobody here is advocating immigrants *not* learning English, and I think you would be hard pressed to show that immigrants in America are not interested in learning the language or that they have an agenda to steal America from the Americans through cultural subversion.
They can't steal America by forcing their kids to learn only spanish, of course not. I never said that, did I? I just said it's stupid and arrogant for them to demand that they be allowed to bring political pressure to force the government to support their culture. It's separatist politics, it's bad for everyone, costs money that shouldn't be spent, time out of people's lives propping up negative lines between whites and latinos, and drives us farther apart. I feel hispanic culture is plenty strong enough to survive on it's own without government help, and it is solely due to political opportunists who saw that it was possible to fan the fires of paranoia that we have the current separatism situation.
Don Muerto wrote:Can you please try your hardest to understand the following sentences:

<i>There is a world of difference between encouraging people to learn the language of the land, and excluding them for not already knowing it. Immigrants without English language skills should not be prevented from participation in civic life, nor given second-rate educational opportunities.</i>
Kindly quote when I said this. I'll wait for your red-faced apology.
Don Muerto wrote:In your system, at what point are people allowed to participate and learn? When they can read a ballot they are qualified to vote? When they can understand the teacher then they have the opportunity to learn? Until then they should stay out of school until English/Americanism seeps into their being via osmotic processes?
See, this is a good illustration of the problem right here; I say something commonsense like we should have a system that encourages people to learn english instead of enabling them to stay separate, and WHAM!BANG! you're thrown into the racist bin in some people's minds just because they heard a racist say something similar. I never said don't let em vote, etc., but Don has made this HUGE leap; namely associating anyone who even fucking mentions this issue with the extreme right, racism, etc. Whatever can be used to demonize your opponent. You need to discriminate a little more carefully Don, or we're never gonna get anywhere.
Don Muerto wrote:You can make crazy arguments all day, but the plain fact of the matter is that US English was a racist organization with the racist goal of preserving participation in American life for only those that can access the language.
So what's the fact that US English was a racist org have to do with what I'm saying here? And don't think that answering that question gets you off the hook for coming up with a quote from me that says I agree with or endorse US English. Thats an emotional association you made in your own mind, so kindly back it up or please quit calling me a racist, sir.
Don Muerto wrote:Did English become the language of America because your immigrant ancestors 'Left their culture, and language at the door?' Or was it that the Native cultures were so 'weak' that our naturally superior one took it's rightful place ala Manifest Destiny?
Ok, this is disingenuous of you, and I expected better of you. So here, right back atcha Mr. Condescending;
Don Muerto wrote:Can you please try your hardest to understand the following sentences:
<i>There is a world of difference between encouraging people to learn the language of the land, and </i>
slaughtering them wholesale. Congratulations, you've just allied yourself with the separatists. That quote from you is what they do, twist someone's commonsense desire to enhance immigrant's lives by encouraging them to learn english into the boogieman coming to slaughter them and their children and oppress them.

Kinetic II

Post by Kinetic II » Tue Nov 04, 2003 12:03 pm

While this is an interesting discussion, Force....I think you just made it to the top 10 for the longest eplaya post ever. Man, that was LONG!

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Re: eaaase back on the hysterical reactions people please

Post by Guest » Tue Nov 04, 2003 12:34 pm

aforceforgood wrote: if I went to a party ...
Shoot. I feel like i'm picking a piece without addressing the whole, but i had to comment on this.

Immigrating to America is not like going to a party. It's usually because someone is in search of some kind of freedom they can't find at home, not to have a good time.

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Post by Don Muerto » Tue Nov 04, 2003 12:34 pm

Do you really not keep track of what you say AFFG?
aforceforgood wrote:
Don Muerto wrote:Arnie is such a zero politically that there is absolutely nothing to point at. No record, no history to speak of, -nada. The few things he has done do not look good, i.e. his US English support...
There's lots of mexican people who favor their kids being taught english too so they can get ahead in the US business world, but they don't get any press. In fact, opposition to this typically comes from those who have entrenched interest in mexicans staying illiterate and poor-Bustamante and the owner of Univision (Spanish language TV channel) are two who spring to mind.
I say US English is bad, you respond that it is Mexican elites, not (by inference) US English-like movements that prevent bilingualism.
aforceforgood wrote:
Don Muerto wrote:US English was not about encouraging immigrants to learn English, it was about disenfranchising those that didn't. English only ballots and school curriculum is a great way to keep non-English speakers illiterate and poor. It's totally ridiculous of you to portray US English as a populist Mexican movement being subverted by a cabal of Mexican elites keeping their countrymen monolingual.
Ask yourself this; what benefit is there to having multilingualism? or is it just a way for these people to be enabled to not have to expend the effort to learn english? I'm sure you're aware of how destructive an ENABLER is to an alcoholic. Without someone to support them, call in sick for them, etc., they might not sink so low into their destructive disease. Why people can't see the same thing happening with multilingualism is beyond me.
I say that is not true, that bilingual ballots and education <b>promote</b> bilingualism, you respond with a question of the benefits of multilingualism and a totally inappropriate analogy to it as an enabler to a disease on the civic body.

I honestly don't see any humor in this:
aforceforgood wrote:...I just realized that Don Muerto could be hispanic or latino or whatever the fock the PC term is today, maybe Don is hisplachicatino) and just to head off the "Well, forcing them to learn english is destroying the mexican culture!" argument before that shit even gets started, I wanna say this before I forget it;

If your culture is so weak that learning english can kill it, then it deserves to die.

And anyways, if your freakin culture is so great, then what're you doing here? Yeah, yeah, I know, economics, and you know, I like a lot about latino culture, their strong family ties, passion, etc., but I think you see my point.
I tally it as an inappropriate pulling of my personal self into the debate, followed by a racist term, a misstatement of my argument, an ignorant statement about the value of cultures, followed by another and 'mitigated' by a weak attempt to whitewash the whole by saying you like some of the stereotyped racial attributes of Mexicans. So the family ties and passion are good, but the laziness and theft are bad?

Don't give me that crap that I am playing "the race card" on you. This is just an attempt to pull the spotlight off the shoddy supports of your argument. You are making racist statements in your defense of a racist organization and <u>that</u> is why race has entered this discussion.

I do not need to calm down, I am not hysterical nor are my emotions 'enflamed.' Although I find your arguments distasteful, they come nowhere near the place in me that would elicit an emotional response. Let's try and focus on the argument instead of my race or emotional state.

As for separatist politics: I think US English, not the bilingualism movement, exemplifies separatist politics. I have shown several examples of this, but you seem unwilling or unable to grasp them. Hopefully the points are made well enough for others. The bottom line is that bilingualism is <b>in</b>clusive and policies such as those espoused by US English are <b>ex</b>clusive.
aforceforgood wrote:See, this is a good illustration of the problem right here; I say something commonsense like we should have a system that encourages people to learn english instead of enabling them to stay separate...
We should absolutely have a system that helps and encourages immigrants to learn English. I feel that bilingual education does this. Given the circular nature of your arguments it's hard to tell what exactly you feel can accomplish this, but I am glad to see that we are at least in the same book if not on the same page.

It's pretty plain though that you believe immigrants *want* to not speak English if they can get away with it. That is why you view bilingualism as "enabling them to stay separate" whereas I believe they want to lean English and bilingualism helps them do so while orgs like US English prevent or retard the same.
aforceforgood wrote:So what's the fact that US English was a racist org have to do with what I'm saying here? And don't think that answering that question gets you off the hook for coming up with a quote from me that says I agree with or endorse US English. Thats an emotional association you made in your own mind, so kindly back it up or please quit calling me a racist, sir.
I think that your own words have shown your defense of US English and monolingualism, but I am encouraged that you admit they are a racist org. For the record, I never called you a racist, I said your arguments have strayed into that territory, and I stand by that statement for the reasons stated above.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

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Post by aforceforgood » Tue Nov 04, 2003 12:35 pm

I felt it was only fair to reply to all of Don's comments and questions in the hope that he would reply to all of mine. I get so tired of people picking and choosing to respond only to those points they have ready answers for, and letting the ones that show the weaknesses of their position drift down into the silt of the river of time by ignoring them.

I did edit his post some to keep my reply a *little* shorter, but I feel I kept the spirit and general themes of it intact.
Last edited by aforceforgood on Tue Nov 04, 2003 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Lydia Love » Tue Nov 04, 2003 12:35 pm

anytime I start talking about a problem that is largely associated with one race I get called a racist, and that shit is so fucking tired.
There must be a reason for this...


I wonder what it is...
It's all about the squirrels.

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Post by aforceforgood » Tue Nov 04, 2003 12:40 pm

Lydia Love wrote:
anytime I start talking about a problem that is largely associated with one race I get called a racist, and that shit is so fucking tired.
There must be a reason for this...


I wonder what it is...
Ok, this thread is going downhill fast- is that what passes for intelligent discourse now? Snidely insinuating I'm a racist without any cites, and then running away?

I'll throw down the same gauntlet to you Lydia, kindly quote where I've said something racist or please stop calling me one.

My words are there in black and white for all to see, shouldn't be too difficult.

I'll wait for your red-faced apology.

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Post by PJ » Tue Nov 04, 2003 12:43 pm


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Post by Don Muerto » Tue Nov 04, 2003 12:46 pm

Sorry PJ, but:

<i>"However there is also a widely- recognized codicil that any intentional triggering of Godwin's Law in order to invoke its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful."</i>

-bet you are wishing for that 'ignore thread' functionality now!
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

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Post by Lydia Love » Tue Nov 04, 2003 12:49 pm

I'll wait for your red-faced apology.
Oh yeah, like that's going to happen.


AFFG - I could scrape together some stuff that *I've* thought were pretty clearly bigoted... and get the same response every time.

"I was joking! You're too PC! You have no sense of humor! You took it out of context! You tightass! You reactionary lefty!"

And maybe you aren't actually a bigot at all.

But sometimes you *do* come off as one and if the thought puts you into that much of a tailspin then maybe, when you are addressing those race issues, you should think about exactly what it is you want to communicate.

That's all. I'm back to lurking this particular thread.

Except to say that I have a crush on Don Muerto.
It's all about the squirrels.

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stuart
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Post by stuart » Tue Nov 04, 2003 12:59 pm

Main Entry: big·ot
Pronunciation: 'bi-g&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, hypocrite, bigot
Date: 1661
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices

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aforceforgood
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Post by aforceforgood » Tue Nov 04, 2003 1:10 pm

aforceforgood wrote:There's lots of mexican people who favor their kids being taught english too so they can get ahead in the US business world, but they don't get any press. In fact, opposition to this typically comes from those who have entrenched interest in mexicans staying illiterate and poor-Bustamante and the owner of Univision (Spanish language TV channel) are two who spring to mind.
Don Muerto wrote:I say US English is bad, you respond that it is Mexican elites, not (by inference) US English-like movements that prevent bilingualism.
THIS IS WHAT I'M FUCKING TALKING ABOUT, YOU ARE INFERRING THINGS I NEVER SAID!! HELLO?!!

Oh, for fucks sake, now I have to elaborately word my responses to accurately depict the percentage of who's in favor of prop 187 or whatthefuckever? Fuck it. I give up. All I was trying to say is that we should have a system that encourages people to learn english and not stay separate and poor. But people just had to twist that around into a big racism issue, blah blah blah. Because obviously anyone who disagrees with their morally superior opinion must be a racist right? There can be no other explanation, right! Yeesh.

Don Muerto wrote:I honestly don't see any humor in this:
aforceforgood wrote:...I just realized that Don Muerto could be hispanic or latino or whatever the fock the PC term is today, maybe Don is hisplachicatino) and just to head off the "Well, forcing them to learn english is destroying the mexican culture!" argument before that shit even gets started, I wanna say this before I forget it;

If your culture is so weak that learning english can kill it, then it deserves to die.

And anyways, if your freakin culture is so great, then what're you doing here? Yeah, yeah, I know, economics, and you know, I like a lot about latino culture, their strong family ties, passion, etc., but I think you see my point.
Don Muerto wrote:I tally it as an inappropriate pulling of my personal self into the debate, followed by a racist term, a misstatement of my argument, an ignorant statement about the value of cultures, followed by another and 'mitigated' by a weak attempt to whitewash the whole by saying you like some of the stereotyped racial attributes of Mexicans. So the family ties and passion are good, but the laziness and theft are bad?

The words in red are exactly why I'm not wasting any more of the precious seconds of my life replying to you anymore Don- because your brain is interpreting things into what I'm saying that I've never said. I'm not going to get sucked into defending what I've never even fucking said in the first place. You need to check your own perceptions of me, because they're not reality.

I made the "If your culture is so weak...etc.," comment because I thought it was funny, and me commenting that I just realized you could be hispanic just meant I had a duh moment, and I chose to share that. That's all. What is negative about pointing that out? But typically, you've chosen to interpret it as negative.

Again, check your own perceptions.
Last edited by aforceforgood on Tue Nov 04, 2003 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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aforceforgood
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Post by aforceforgood » Tue Nov 04, 2003 1:16 pm

Lydia Love wrote:AFFG - I could scrape together some stuff that *I've* thought were pretty clearly bigoted... and get the same response every time.
Well that's a convenient bit of circular reasoning isn't it Lydia? You're basically not backing up your statements because obviously I'm such a crazy racist that I'd dismiss everything you said. Nice. Very sneaky. Bravo. You're a master of insinuation. Are you a lawyer? Because I'd like to retain your services should I ever need them. Your politician-like talent for throwing shit-bombs at your opponent and then running off would I'm sure be quite effective in a courtroom.

On the other hand, I credit you for having the self-control to not get sucked into this pointless argument which I myself will now bow out of.

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Post by Don Muerto » Tue Nov 04, 2003 1:19 pm

I am in control of my perceptions, and I think it's odd of you to worry so about what they might be. I feel I have made my case in a calm, rational and well-reasoned manner, and I am sorry if you feel misportrayed, misunderstood or pissed off to the point of using colored HTML and the Caps Lock key.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

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III
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Post by III » Tue Nov 04, 2003 1:31 pm

>wishing for that 'ignore thread'

yes.

yes, i am.

still.
[url]http://3playa.cultureshark.net/[/url]

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Isotopia
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Post by Isotopia » Tue Nov 04, 2003 2:14 pm

I am sorry if you feel misportrayed, misunderstood or pissed off to the point of using colored HTML and the Caps Lock key.
At least he didn't savage you with one of them smileys.

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BlueBirdPoof
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Post by BlueBirdPoof » Tue Nov 04, 2003 2:48 pm

Whatever aforceforgood's intentions, he certainly came across as racist to me. I've been hearing variations of this arguement most of my life and certainly, America has a nativist and anti-immigrant tradition going back more than 150 years and somehow the arguements haven't really changed much in that time; they all just seem a gloss on "you're different, go away." Whether or not aforcefor good is racist--his arguements were careless, stale, emotionally overwrought and more filled with uninformed opinions than any sense of the history that preceeds us. In fact, I find it somewhat analogous to the idea or showing up on-playa without having read the survival guide or FAQ or having talked with an experienced burner. Is "fucktard" a better or worse epithet? And expecting to be welcomed with open arms in those circumstances is naive, perhaps grandiose. Not expecting Don Muerto to not want to hear this same ol crap yet again is just plain stupid.
Based on his name, his avatar, and his catch phrase it's always been apparent to me that Don Muerto had Central American connections (or maybe was a Pixies fan). If that's relevant or not I cannot say, but my minor multi-cultural literacy at least saved me from the faux pas of suddenly bursting into insults when I put the pieces together. My personal take on Muerto's purported race was to welcome him--it bothers me how white BRC is.
force seemed to have forgotten how incredibly hurtful and unfunny in-group on out-group "humor" can be; sure "PC" is an epithet, but mostly it's a form of politeness, a refusal to judge where you don't have the information or experience to say something intelligent. As for "what passes for intelligent discourse" having actual information--plus being willing to apologize when caught out in an error--helps.
Interesting, that within all that verbiage, he claims to be for anything that helps in learning English. If he'd just stuck to that, he'd have saved himself a lot of agravation.
My guess is that to the best of their ability and circumstances all immigrants are learning English and wish to learn more. Whatever ties they may keep with their homeland and culture.

aforceforgood wrote:
My words are there in black and white for all to see, shouldn't be too difficult.

I'll wait for your red-faced apology.
One question--within this context, does anyone else find the phrasing weird?

Another--how often does it happen that a burner says we should obey the dominant culture?
Last edited by BlueBirdPoof on Tue Nov 04, 2003 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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BlueBirdPoof
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Post by BlueBirdPoof » Tue Nov 04, 2003 2:49 pm

Isotopia wrote:
At least he didn't savage you with one of them smileys.
(At least) two zingers in 24 hours. Very nice.

Kinetic II

Post by Kinetic II » Tue Nov 04, 2003 5:22 pm

<YAWN!>
Last edited by Kinetic II on Tue Nov 04, 2003 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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