Barlow essay on Burning Man and Schwartzenegger

All things outside of Burning Man.
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III
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Post by III » Tue Nov 25, 2003 6:22 pm

i'll agree that class size *does* matter, but for the most part that's a result of having to maintain classroom discipline. 20 juvenile delinquents are harder to keep an eye on than 40. (no, not all teens are delinquents. but in the remedial classes, a fair number of the have, um, issues...)

being able to weed out the 10% worst trouble makers would be more effective than simply doubling the number of teachers. it's one of the reasons that private and charter schools do a lot better than the public schools: they're allowed to filter their clientele.
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Post by Patience » Wed Nov 26, 2003 9:16 am

It would be more effective from the teacher's perspective, but what happens to that 10 percent? Are you satisfied with Tom's suggestion that (paraphrasing) if they stay out of prison they can catch up later? You want to toss ten percent of our nation's children out of school? Are you fucking kidding me?
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Post by III » Wed Nov 26, 2003 9:36 am

>Are you fucking kidding me?

only sorta.

we end up throwing em in prison later on, anyways, right?
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Post by Patience » Wed Nov 26, 2003 9:52 am

As good as that bait looks, I think I'll just keep swimming...
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Post by TestesInSac » Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:16 am

Patience wrote:It would be more effective from the teacher's perspective, but what happens to that 10 percent? Are you satisfied with Tom's suggestion that (paraphrasing) if they stay out of prison they can catch up later? You want to toss ten percent of our nation's children out of school? Are you fucking kidding me?
Well, if I *really* had my way, that 10% would be required to wear zap collars.

But seriously, I watched that 10%, via the utter ineffectiveness of the liberal administration, which for political reasons couldn't/wouldn't take real action, effect the total loss of security in my high school. That effectively shut down learning for most of the school. All because it was politically incorrect to discard slightly underage thugs.

Or, for that matter, to apply sufficient current to their throwback medulla oblongatas to momentarily stun them into being quiet.
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Post by Patience » Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:58 am

Tom: What it boils down to (for me) is this:

We are all in this together.

What happens after you "discard" the 10% from the schools? The majority end up on the street. Many turn to crime.

Then what? Discard them some more! Send them to prison! But now they're an economic drain on society....

Well, shit. Maybe we should just off them when they're fourteen if they don't behave in school. It'll save us all (well, the 90% of us who survive) a lot of time and money.

Look, I think we agree about the problem. What happened in your high school, and what happens in urban schools around the country, is a shame. But kicking those kids out of school doesn't solve the problem. It just pushes it aside. You may think that those kids (the 10%) deserve a fate of homelessness and prison. I disagree. I think that at that age that most can still make real changes that will affect their lives positively. But they need guidance, they need teachers (including their parents), and they need to be in school. Your school's administration failed you, but it failed those students as well--not by allowing them to remain in school, but by allowing them to control it. Schools (urban schools in particular) need tough, creative and inspiring leadership, not helpless beaureaucrats and pencil-pushers. And yes, *some* students have to be removed. But only those few who are beyond help or actually dangerous, not your average misguided delinquent.
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Post by Blenderhead » Wed Nov 26, 2003 11:15 am

My father spent the last 10-odd years of his career teaching basic computer skills at one of those "last-ditch" high schools in SoCal. His classes consisted of those kids who had been kicked out of every other high school in the district for various offenses.

He said it was the most frustrating, yet the most rewarding part of his career. Just trying to reach them and keep them engaged was a monumental task. He would relate stories they told about their lives: gangs, drugs, horrible home environments, the whole deal. Every couple of weeks one would disappear, either to jail, expelled from school, or dead. Out of the 35 kids he saw the the first day of school his last year, only 17 made it to graduation. He thought that 50% success rate was worth the time and effort. He thought if you gave them hope and paid attention to them, you could work wonders... but there would always be a certain number that wouldn't make it, for any number of reasons, and he could only say that he tried.

Oh crap, now I forgot what I was trying to say... eesh. Oh well. The End.

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Post by TestesInSac » Wed Nov 26, 2003 11:23 am

I think it's weird that so many think education is a right, when it isn't; it's a <b>privilege</b> that one must choose to exercise. Like physical fitness, it can't be given to you, you have to work to acquire it. Sure, the facilities, instruction and support (for either) can be provided, but the individual still has to do the work.

Now, when you have 2 out of 30 disrupting the process, they are depriving the other 28 of the choice to exercise their privilege, to say nothing of wasting the $8500/year spent on them by the state. And by leaving no sensible alternative to the instructors, you demoralize them and eventually the quality of instruction suffers. So yes, I'm totally cool with throwing away the 2 for the sake of the 28, and all the rest of us paying into the system, if it came to that.

Now, I get the argument against letting 'em run riot, so an alternative school system makes sense to me. Trouble is, a system like that would stratify pretty quickly and there'd be complaints about racism, elitism, etc. ad nauseum.

Bottom line for me: It is inexcusably stupid to sacrifice the well-being of the majority of students and staff, and thus compromise the well-being of all society, for the sake of a bunch of younger versions of DF.
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Post by III » Wed Nov 26, 2003 12:41 pm

the jail thing wasn't really meant as a red herring: i'm not sure whether it's lack of education that makes people criminals, or whether they've got it innately. what i do know is, that by the time they hit high school that behavior is pretty fixed already. they don't magically aquire it when they turn 18. all those people our government thinks are too dangerous to have in society at large are also forced innto the classrooms with students who could actually care, were it not for the distractions.

i don't recommend turning them loose on the streets. in fact, i think they're a good place to invest some money, with closer supervision, and teach them how to be responsible, possible through very practical trade oriented classes. there's something that can be done, but keeping them in an environment that they can only enjoy by destroying is not it.

(btw - i've found i can handle 2-3 very disruptive kids in my classroom. it's when i get 6-10 that it becomes unmanageable)
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Post by diane o'thirst » Wed Nov 26, 2003 12:44 pm

I'm reminded of "The Trial" from Pink Floyd's <i>The Wall</i>

"I always said he'd come to no good in the end, Your Honour/If they'd let me have my way I would have flayed him into shape/But my hands were tied/The bleeding hearts and the artists let him get away with murder/Let me hammer him today..."

'Course the character speaking was a victim of an abusive relationship himself...

Anyway, that aside, it would seem that in the schools, the problem of disruptive kids in the class can probably be defrayed somewhat if not solved by removing the school process from it's politically-correct shackles. Speaking as a parochial school survivor that'd probably mean a return to a scenario of teacher prowling the aisles with ruler in hand. You also come up with a thornier problem...like, define "the problem kids."

I'm thinking of the favourite ethics scenario, "If you could go back in time and met Hitler as a young man, what would you do?" Let's paraphrase: If you could go back in time and met Harris and Klebold before they went off the deep end and founded the Trenchcoat Mafia, what would you do? Do you label the disruptive kids as those two and their cohorts, or do you target the real problem, do the politically incorrect and socially unpopular but right thing and nail the frackin' knuckle-dragging jocks who are terrorizing them and sending them straight off the deep end? You remember that the issue's resolution: not only did the terrorizers survive the massacre, but went on to win their local championship and were lauded as heroes — in effect, "rewarding" supporting and even vindicating their behaviour and attitudes that caused the whole literally goddamned mess to happen in the first place. Reference the Onion article, "The Nation's schools are now safe for bullies."

I'm watching to see if any of those surviving jock/"heroes" wind up in front of a judge for spousal/child abuse in the years to come...
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Post by III » Wed Nov 26, 2003 12:54 pm

>define "the problem kids."

in a general sense, that's very sticky: i've had kids who busted their ass in my classes and who would do anything for me, who were just nightmares in other peoples classrooms. and vica versa: some of my biggest problems did great in other peoples classrooms.

and that makes the issue muckier than i'd presented it: there aren't just good kids and bad kids, it's the context in which they behave that sets them that way.

but all that said, there are some kids who cannot function in any environment, and it seems that with them the focus should be on learning to do so, rather than trying to get them to sit through hours of math or english instruction that they have no interest in participating in.
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Post by diane o'thirst » Wed Nov 26, 2003 1:08 pm

TestesInSac wrote:I think it's weird that so many think education is a right, when it isn't; it's a <b>privilege</b>
I disagree, educational institutes are the incubator of the culture: it's where the societal culture is grown, preserved and hacked. Take the kids out of the schools, turn them loose in the world and suddenly you have the archetypal feral child/Lord of the Flies scenario. And not in a couple decades either, more like a couple weeks after bum's-rushing them.

Fortunately home-schooling is becoming an increasing option, at least up here in Oregon. If the parents can't be bothered to stay home and make sure their kids are learning the ups and downs of the world and how to get along with adults, then they should face sanctions like loss of their tax breaks for having the little whelps to begin with. When you breed, your first priority and responsibility for the next twenty-one years (at least) is to make sure that kid's going to be able to function in the surrounding society. Fail to do that, lose your bennies.
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Post by stuart » Wed Nov 26, 2003 1:20 pm

violence, except in the case of the TRULY pathological, does not exist without frustration. This is a psychological truism.

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Post by TestesInSac » Wed Nov 26, 2003 1:24 pm

diane o'thirst wrote:
TestesInSac wrote:I think it's weird that so many think education is a right, when it isn't; it's a <b>privilege</b>
I disagree, educational institutes are the incubator of the culture: it's where the societal culture is grown, preserved and hacked. Take the kids out of the schools, turn them loose in the world and suddenly you have the archetypal feral child/Lord of the Flies scenario. And not in a couple decades either, more like a couple weeks after bum's-rushing them.
Regardless of what would happen if the schools disappeared, nothing there shows that education is anything other than a privilege. It should be seen as an investment in our future, I agree, but as practiced in the western world, it is fairly recent in human history and not even universal today.

Rights are intrinsic, not cultural. Everyone has a right to think and to learn. Having a facility to learn in and instructors to help is a privilege. I think that if that idea were focused on more, school would be less seen as a burden or an obligation.
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Post by DE FACTO » Wed Nov 26, 2003 1:25 pm

diane o'thirst wrote: Let's paraphrase: If you could go back in time and met Harris and Klebold before they went off the deep end and founded the Trenchcoat Mafia, what would you do? Do you label the disruptive kids as those two and their cohorts, or do you target the real problem, do the politically incorrect and socially unpopular but right thing and nail the frackin' knuckle-dragging jocks who are terrorizing them and sending them straight off the deep end? You remember that the issue's resolution: not only did the terrorizers survive the massacre, but went on to win their local championship and were lauded as heroes — in effect, "rewarding" supporting and even vindicating their behaviour and attitudes that caused the whole literally goddamned mess to happen in the first place. Reference the Onion article, "The Nation's schools are now safe for bullies."

I'm watching to see if any of those surviving jock/"heroes" wind up in front of a judge for spousal/child abuse in the years to come...
Not to complain about your spelling and grammer but you are absolutely right. rewarding the dumb fucks for bullying Harris and Klebold is a fuck up case. so now maybe some of these dumb pea-brains are going to college (most likley YALE and will later will join "skull & bones" bully a few more people at Yale, rape a few women and get away with that, beat the shit out of thier girlfriends (girlfriends that will ask for the creeps back later) graduate after numerous test cheatings and work for oil companies and become president. (hows that for some bad writing? But you get what I mean right.)

1.Discarding no one is the best bet and addressing the bully problem weather they be at the childs school or at home (a parent perhaps) in addition to teachers spending more time with students in smaller class sizes are just part of the solution. America is in the shit it's in now because it is a throw away society and already treats people not just here in the states but all over the world like toilet paper.

2. attitude change. if there were some way to get the Majority of Americans to see how thier attitude affects others this would be a better place.

3. I can't finish this right now because my customer has just walked in.

but I think you get the idea.


gotta go.
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Post by DangerMouse » Wed Nov 26, 2003 1:26 pm

My HS GPA at graduation: 1.67
My ACT score: 31

Why?

Teachers who didn't care, and bullies.

No drugs, no alcohol, no gangs. Just depression.

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Post by KellY » Wed Nov 26, 2003 6:22 pm

Well, if Arnie gets his way, education will become much more the province of the privileged. I wonder if people would have voted for him if he'd declared he wanted to cut 2 billion from education and health programs during the campaign, instead of immediatley after taking office? I'm guessing not quite so many. Just another fanatic who campaigned in moderate's clothing, like Dubya.

Hey, his resemblance doesn't end there. Arnie apparently also wants to to throw out any balance of power between him and the legislature. ("If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator." -G.W. Bush, December 18, 2000, on CNN) In his new plan, the governor could announce any mid-year spending cuts he wants "in times of economic emergency", and the ledge would have to veto it within thirty days with a two-thirds majority if they didn't like it.

The sad thing is, I bet a big chunk of Arnie's voters would be happy to have him as dictator...he does make a much better uberman figure than Hitler did, after all...
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Post by DE FACTO » Wed Nov 26, 2003 6:26 pm

("If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator." -G.W. Bush, December 18, 2000, on CNN)

I've been looking all over the place for that. Glad you saw it too.

thanks. I'm keeping that one off to a side.

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Post by Isotopia » Wed Nov 26, 2003 6:27 pm

My HS GPA at graduation: 1.67
My ACT score: 31

Why?

Teachers who didn't care, and bullies.

No drugs, no alcohol, no gangs. Just depression.
Why do I get the idea that those scores are not indicative of what you really know SM?

I have an idea that they reflect my own experience in a lot of ways.

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Post by joel the ornery » Wed Nov 26, 2003 6:30 pm

KellY wrote:Well, if Arnie gets his way, education will become much more the province of the privileged. I wonder if people would have voted for him if he'd declared he wanted to cut 2 billion from education and health programs during the campaign, instead of immediatley after taking office? I'm guessing not quite so many. Just another fanatic who campaigned in moderate's clothing, like Dubya.

Hey, his resemblance doesn't end there. Arnie apparently also wants to to throw out any balance of power between him and the legislature. ("If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator." -G.W. Bush, December 18, 2000, on CNN) In his new plan, the governor could announce any mid-year spending cuts he wants "in times of economic emergency", and the ledge would have to veto it within thirty days with a two-thirds majority if they didn't like it.

The sad thing is, I bet a big chunk of Arnie's voters would be happy to have him as dictator...he does make a much better uberman figure than Hitler did, after all...
Oh please, give it a rest and develop a viable candidate to compete.

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Post by aforceforgood » Wed Nov 26, 2003 6:47 pm

diane o'thirst wrote:You remember that the issue's resolution: not only did the terrorizers survive the massacre, but went on to win their local championship and were lauded as heroes — in effect, "rewarding" supporting and even vindicating their behaviour and attitudes that caused the whole literally goddamned mess to happen in the first place.
Um.

Not to diminish the jock percentage of responsibility in that tragedy, but what percentage of responsibility do you feel Harris and Klebold have for choosing to kill people and actually pulling the trigger?

Yeah, being bullied and teased is a terrible thing, and it would be great if people learned from this, but the vast majority of those victimized by it don't kill people.

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Post by DE FACTO » Wed Nov 26, 2003 6:51 pm

aforceforgood wrote: Yeah, being bullied and teased is a terrible thing, and it would be great if people learned from this, but the vast majority of those victimized by it don't kill people.
That's because they like many in this ignorant society are suckerd to belive in turning the other cheek.

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Post by Guest » Wed Nov 26, 2003 7:02 pm

TestesInSac wrote: Rights are intrinsic, not cultural. Everyone has a right to think and to learn. Having a facility to learn in and instructors to help is a privilege. I think that if that idea were focused on more, school would be less seen as a burden or an obligation.
I wish rights were intrinsic and not part of the culture. That would make my fucking day. Unfortunately there are societies in the world where a man has the 'right' to rape his wife, where caucasian mothers have 'rights' that non-caucasian mothers don't (pregnancy benefits in France), and companies have the right to commit heinous acts in the name of progress and profits.

When legislators make a law securing a right, they are trying to create the world they wish for, not recognizing one that previously existed.

And unfortunately, for the abused, even the right to think can be taken away. How maddenning is that?

I think education is about investment, and there will always be a question as to what kind of investment is appropriate, but we should never just give up entirely on it.

Has anyone else here noticed that the whole idea of prison as a place for people to get their head straight has been largely abandonded? Gray Davis wouldn't parole any murderers, because in his mind that murder conviction meant that person was no longer worth any investment other then incarceration. And in this discussion, prison sounds like a permanent sentence. That person fucked-up so throw 'em away.

I like what Blenderhead wrote about trying for the 15 who graduated. I think that's what should guide our public policy.

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Post by DangerMouse » Wed Nov 26, 2003 7:36 pm

Isotopia wrote:Why do I get the idea that those scores are not indicative of what you really know SM?

I have an idea that they reflect my own experience in a lot of ways.
Well, the ACT score is actually pretty good. 36 being the highest, and 21-22 being average.

My guidance counselor pulled me into her office one day waiving my grades in one hand and my ACT scores in the other. And I quote: "Kids like you really fucking piss me off."

Great inspiration.

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Post by rogue agent » Wed Nov 26, 2003 9:44 pm

Bob wrote:The recent recall of former California Gov. Gray Davis "really crucified us," said Hansen. "That was such a circus, such a show, with a stripper, a porn star, Gary Coleman as candidates." "People thought it would probably be the same here, while in truth it would have been an election to keep or not keep Guinn as governor," Hansen added.
Yeah, I can see how the state with Las Vegas in it would have a problem with circuses, strippers & porn stars being the center of cultural attention. I'm pretty sure they could even host that crucifixion he mentioned, as long as the local bookies would take odds on it.

RA

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Re: Lets see....today is Jan 22...

Post by DE FACTO » Thu Jan 22, 2004 7:25 am

It's a good idea to check out how this conversation came to be on the date of Wed Nov 19, 2003

DE FACTO wrote:
tzimisce1313 wrote:that is true. i can only sleep soundly knowing that arnold schwarzenegger can not run for president.


Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but there are those that have had plans to change that (yes the constitution) soon so that he will be able to.

Don Muerto wrote:In order to amend the constitution, you first must get legislation passed by a 2/3 majority in both houses of Congress. Then 3/4ths of the States must ratify the legislation.

Don't hold your breath, De Facto.
.
.

On second thought...
.
.


2006 is one states constitutional amendment pushed through legislation.
To bad we have to wait till 08 to see the results of an in placed stratigie to take place of presidential proportions.


I think I'll hold on to this one. For future reference.


It's amazing. Looks like I did'nt have to wait to turn light blue to see this come true.

So you say that Gay marrige is still not going to be made into a constitutional amendment issue huh?



To reference what the topic originally was, on the day
Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:54 pm
you can go to this link

http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... &start=255
:lol:

P.S. ( see, This is why I never need to delete anything I post on eplaya.)
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Post by DE FACTO » Thu Jan 22, 2004 7:54 am

Let's see now.....who am I kidding.

Americans have never wanted to look the truth in the face......until it's too late. And still, in most cases they will still live in a state of denial.

I think I will attempt to turn blue in the face knowing that Americans will never be as accepting as I to the truth of it all.


woa is me. :cry:


:lol:

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Hmmmm....

Post by DE FACTO » Thu Jan 22, 2004 8:58 am

I bet no one is gonna respond to these current posts.

Anything to prevent admitting that DE FACTO is any bit of an ounce correct.

Gibberish I say. I just speak only gibberish.

(that's a quote/paraphrase somewhere from someone on this board that most look to as being oh so awsome. a shaded man)

:lol:

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Post by Tancorix » Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:27 am

I'll respond and say I'll take 100 De Facto posts to one of the Stop BM mess. I'm glad to see you posting again and welcome back.

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Post by DE FACTO » Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:37 am

Tancorix wrote:I'll respond and say I'll take 100 De Facto posts to one of the Stop BM mess. I'm glad to see you posting again and welcome back.
Oh hey....that's no fair. You know you are going to agree with me.

Hey, I miss you guys.

:wink:

Oh and hey....I got a whole bunch of new goodies.


woo hoo !

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