Theme for 2004

All things outside of Burning Man.
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DE FACTO
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Re: How about

Post by DE FACTO » Thu Nov 06, 2003 9:33 am

Fix wrote:How about a theme on String Theory?

:shock:
damn you beat me to it.

I thought no one would get that one.

I was thinking the quantum theorys of Burningman or something along the lines.

hey very good call.

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Patience
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Re: camp eplaya?

Post by Patience » Thu Nov 06, 2003 9:42 am

DE FACTO wrote:hey does anybody know if there is going to be or if there ever was a camp eplaya?
Don Muerto wrote:the playa is always campy
Don, that was awful. You're fired.
It's not that I hate you. It's just that I'm a much better person than you.

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III
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Post by III » Thu Nov 06, 2003 9:47 am

>String Theory

badger may be able to address this better than i can, but string theory is rapidly being loaded onto the garbage heap because of the sheer unverifiable nature of it. it may work as a model, but it mainly does so by introducing enough extra variables (i.e. dimensions) to allow its representations of currently understood phenomena to remain completely uncoupled in any except the thoeretical sense.

but if you just meant it as another theme that your average raver couldn't figure out with a guidebook and a tutor, then it should do fine.
[url]http://3playa.cultureshark.net/[/url]

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DE FACTO
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Post by DE FACTO » Thu Nov 06, 2003 10:07 am

III wrote:>String Theory

badger may be able to address this better than i can, but string theory is rapidly being loaded onto the garbage heap because of the sheer unverifiable nature of it. it may work as a model, but it mainly does so by introducing enough extra variables (i.e. dimensions) to allow its representations of currently understood phenomena to remain completely uncoupled in any except the thoeretical sense.

but if you just meant it as another theme that your average raver couldn't figure out with a guidebook and a tutor, then it should do fine.
So trey, You are a quantum physisist?

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Badger
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Post by Badger » Thu Nov 06, 2003 10:10 am

That's a pretty succinct summary of where it is. The few theoretical physicists in the world who truly understand the theory - and thats all of about 60 people - try unconvincingly to insist that because string theory is wholly a mathematics based idea that it is and should be allowed to stand as supportable (and demonstrable) based solely on the calculations generated thus far. It all makes for a very interesting discussion in the parlor but in the end science has not time for such shit.

If you have an idea of how or why something is science will, in the end, demand that you 'Show us the money."
Desert dogs drink deep.

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DE FACTO
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Post by DE FACTO » Thu Nov 06, 2003 10:15 am

Badger wrote:That's a pretty succinct summary of where it is. The few theoretical physicists in the world who truly understand the theory - and thats all of about 60 people - try unconvincingly to insist that because string theory is wholly a mathematics based idea that it is and should be allowed to stand as supportable (and demonstrable) based solely on the calculations generated thus far. It all makes for a very interesting discussion in the parlor but in the end science has not time for such shit.

If you have an idea of how or why something is science will, in the end, demand that you 'Show us the money."
I think Dr. Brian greene put it best. just to paraphrase.

both sides of the scientific community need to go at it till things get hashed out and something new comes out of it.

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Post by jbelson » Thu Nov 06, 2003 12:56 pm

Don Muerto wrote:Regarding a theme of 'stories,' what if a collaborative story was written/role-played by the BM participants? What if every ticket came with a suggested role, -some background, affiliation and motivation, and each participant had the opportunity to discover and interact with a larger-than-life story created in the ephemeral world of BM?

Roleplaying would be all voluntary of course, with people ignoring, replacing, modifying or living their role for their time there. The basic setting of the story could be provided in advance, and particular people or camps could play high-profile characters and the rest of the participants adding to the story in whatever way they see fit.

I know this is kind of an abstract idea, but I find it intriguing. Imagine a 30k person interactive roleplaying experience!
I think this would be a cool art project type thing to do. playa character camp. Come get your playa character

maybe give people their role playing cards, and attach a stamp so they can mail back how their characters journey played out.
"I gotta have more cowbell"
Bruce dickenson, legendary rock producer

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Badger
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Post by Badger » Thu Nov 06, 2003 1:51 pm

I think Dr. Brian greene put it best. just to paraphrase.

both sides of the scientific community need to go at it till things get hashed out and something new comes out of it.
I hope you'll forgive me for being suspect that you have any idea what Brian Greene is really trying to say as far as his reportage on string theory (see
'The Elegent Universe'). The above just sounds like something pulled out of Google's ass.
Desert dogs drink deep.

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DE FACTO
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Post by DE FACTO » Thu Nov 06, 2003 1:54 pm

Badger wrote:
I think Dr. Brian greene put it best. just to paraphrase.

both sides of the scientific community need to go at it till things get hashed out and something new comes out of it.
I hope you'll forgive me for being suspect that you have any idea what Brian Greene is really trying to say as far as his reportage on string theory (see
'The Elegent Universe'). The above just sounds like something pulled out of Google's ass.
I also have been watching his program that has been recently been broadcasted and reading other things.
Superstring Theory
Superstring theory resolves the most enigmatic problem of twentieth century theoretical physics: the mathematical incompatibility of the foundational pillars of quantum mechanics and the General Theory of Relativity. In doing so, string theory modifies our understanding of spacetime and the gravitational force. One recently discovered consequence of this modification is that spacetime can undergo remarkable rearrangements of its basic structure requiring the fabric of spacetime to tear apart and subsequently reconnect. Such processes are at best unlikely and probably impossible in pre-string theories as they would be accompanied by violent physical effects. In string theory, on the contrary, these processes are physically sensible and thoroughly common.

Superstring Theory.
The usual domains of general relativity and quantum mechanics are quite different. General relativity describes the force of gravity and hence is usually applied to the largest and most massive structures including stars, galaxies, black holes and even, in cosmology, the universe itself. Quantum mechanics is most relevant in describing the smallest structures in the universe such as electrons and quarks. In most ordinary physical situations, therefore, either general relativity or quantum mechanics is required for a theoretical understanding, but not both. There are, however, extreme physical circumstances which require both of these fundamental theories for a proper theoretical treatment.
Prime examples of such situations are spacetime singularities such as the central point of a black hole or the state of the universe just before the big bang. These exotic physical structures involve enormous mass scales (thus requiring general relativity) and extremely small distance scales (thus requiring quantum mechanics). Unfortunately, general relativity and quantum mechanics are mutually incompatible: any calculation which simultaneously uses both of these tools yields nonsensical answers. The origin of this problem can be traced to equations which become badly behaved when particles interact with each other across minute distance scales on the order of 10 cm ( 10 in)--- the Planck length.

String theory solves the deep problem of the incompatibility of these two fundamental theories by modifying the properties of general relativity when it is applied to scales on the order of the Planck length. String theory is based on the premise that the elementary constituents of matter are not described correctly when we model them as point-like objects. Rather, according to this theory, the elementary ``particles'' are actually tiny closed loops of string with radii approximately given by the Planck length. Modern accelerators can only probe down to distance scales around 10 cm ( 10 in) and hence these loops of string appear to be point objects. However, the string theoretic hypothesis that they are actually tiny loops, changes drastically the way in which these objects interact on the shortest of distance scales. This modification is what allows gravity and quantum mechanics to form a harmonious union.

There is a price to be paid for this solution, however. It turns out that the equations of string theory are self consistent only if the universe contains, in addition to time, nine spatial dimensions. As this is in gross conflict with the perception of three spatial dimensions, it might seem that string theory must be discarded. This is not true.


Kaluza-Klein Theory.
The idea that our universe might have more than the three familiar spatial dimensions is one which was introduced more than half a century before the advent of string theory by T. Kaluza and by O. Klein. The basic premise of such Kaluza-Klein theories is that a dimension can be either large and directly observable or small and essentially invisible. An analogy with a garden hose can be helpful. From a distance, a garden hose looks like a long one dimensional object. From a closer vantage point (or from a long distance using a visual aid) an additional dimension --- the circular dimension winding around the hose --- becomes evident. Thus, depending on the scale of sensitivity of the observer, the hose will either appear as one or two dimensional. Kaluza-Klein theories state that the same thing can be true of the universe. No experiment rules out the possible existence of additional spatial dimensions curled up (like the circular dimension of the hose) on scales smaller than 10 cm ( 10 in), the limit of present day accessibility. Although originally introduced in the context of point particle theories, this notion can be applied to strings. String theory, therefore, is physically sensible if the six extra dimensions which it requires curl up in this fashion.


A universe with both extended dimensions (two shown) and curled up dimensions (two shown).

A remarkable property of these theories is that the precise size, shape, number of holes, etc. of these extra dimensions determines properties such as the masses and electric charges of the elementary `particles'.


Gravitational Fluctuations and the Topology of Spacetime.
A number of issues, unresolved at present, prevent the application of string theory to the analysis of the kind of spacetime singularities described above. The theory can be successfully applied, though, to another class of singularities which control the topology of the universe.
Topology is a mathematical concept that embodies those properties of a geometrical space which do not change if the space is stretched, twisted or bent but not torn. A doughnut and a sphere are distinct from the topological viewpoint because there is no way to deform one into the other smoothly, that is, without tearing either object. A doughnut and a teacup, both of which have one hole, can be continuously deformed into each other and hence have the same topology.

General relativity predicts that the fabric of spacetime will smoothly deform its size and shape in response to the presence of matter and energy. A familiar manifestation of this spacetime stretching is the expansion of the universe. The topology of the universe, however, remains fixed. A long standing question is whether there might be physical processes which, unlike those familiar from general relativity, cause the topology of the universe to change. There is a heuristic reason for suspecting this possibility based on a naive application of quantum mechanics. Namely, a universal feature of quantum mechanics is that on the smallest distance scales even the most quiescent systems undergo `quantum jitter': the value of quantities characterizing the system fluctuate, sometimes violently, averaging out to their measured values on larger distance scales. This notion, applied the fabric of spacetime, yields the image of a frothing, undulating structure on small distance scales which averages out on larger scales to the smooth geometrical description of general relativity. It is conceivable that, behind the veil of quantum jitter, the fabric of spacetime could momentarily tear and subsequently reconnect in a manner resulting in a change of the topology of the universe. Prior to the advent of string theory, the incompatibility of general relativity and quantum mechanics made it impossible to address this possibility in a quantitative manner.


Topology Change in String Theory.
Due to the above reasoning, the possibility of spacetime topology change was suggested as a novel characteristic of the union of gravity and quantum mechanics. String theory, which achieves this union, has recently been shown to permit physical processes which do result in a particular kind topology change, at least in the extra six dimensional component of spacetime.
There is a well studied mathematical operation called a flop which is a systematic procedure for changing the topology of a geometrical space in a ``minimal'' manner. It involves singling out a sphere in the space, continuously shrinking its volume down to zero (leaving the rest of the space fully intact) and then blowing its volume back up, but in an orthogonal direction. The point at which the volume is zero is the singularity which may be considered as a minimal tear. The result of this operation is a new geometrical space whose topology is different from the original. The change in topology is not as drastic as that between a doughnut and a sphere, but nonetheless it is different.

Mathematically, this is a rigorously defined and well studied operation. It can, for instance, be applied to the curled up six dimensional part of spacetime in a theory based on strings. The crucial question is whether this operation is physically realizable. The criterion for determining this is simple: can this operation be achieved in a manner which does not result in any catastrophic physical consequences? In general relativity the answer to this question is no as the physical model ceases to make sense at the singular point --- the point at which the chosen sphere has zero volume. Since string theory differs from general relativity on short distance scales, it is conceivable that a different answer might emerge. At first sight, however, even the equations of string theory appear difficult to analyze in this context. Only with the tool of mirror manifolds can this question be addressed.


Mirror Manifolds.
Four years ago it was shown that the interpretation of string theory using the Kaluza-Klein idea of curled up dimensions comes with a remarkable twist. Two completely different possibilities for the curled up space (different sizes, shapes and number of holes) can, if properly chosen, give rise to identical observable physics. This is completely unexpected from a point particle viewpoint. The reason for this is that in point particle theories, the physical and mathematical descriptions of a geometric space are both based on considering it to be a collection of an infinite number of points grouped together in a particular manner. In string theory, the physical model is based on tiny loops and hence differs markedly from the mathematical description. This, in turn, allows two mathematically distinct curled up spaces to yield physically identical string models. This is a purely string theoretic phenomenon which relies profoundly on the extended nature of a string.
Although either member of a mirror pair gives rise to the same physical theory, the technical description of a given physical process very often differs drastically between the two constructions. In fact, certain processes which have an extremely complicated, and difficult to analyze, description when one curled up space is used, have a transparent, and easy to analyze, description when the mirror is used.

Recently, the mirror description of the topology changing flop operation discussed above has been analyzed. This results in a remarkable simplification of the string equations governing this process. An analysis of these simplified equations has revealed that there are no catastrophic physical consequences of this topology changing process. In fact, the mirror description makes it clear that such topology changing events are not only physically realizable, but commonplace as well. Thus, using the tool of mirror manifolds, it has been shown that the long suspected possibility of topology changing processes can be explicitly realized in string theory.


Bibliography.
Superstrings: A Theory of Everything?, ed. P.C.W. Davies and J. Brown, Cambridge University Press, 1988; Mirror Manifolds, ed. S-T. Yau, International Press, (1992); B. R. Greene, P. S. Aspinwall and D. Morrison, Multiple Mirror Manifolds and Topology Change in String Theory, Physics Letters B303, (1993) 249; E. Witten, Phases of N = 2 Theories in Two Dimensions, Institute for Advanced Studies Preprint IAS-HEP-93-3.


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High-Energy Physics Home Page.
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DE FACTO
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Post by DE FACTO » Thu Nov 06, 2003 2:04 pm

Oh Oh! Badger must be reading so that he can quiz me later.
just too long of a pause.
:lol:

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Badger
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Post by Badger » Thu Nov 06, 2003 2:05 pm

Badger must be reading so that he can quiz me later.
You flatter yourself.
Desert dogs drink deep.

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DE FACTO
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Post by DE FACTO » Thu Nov 06, 2003 2:07 pm

Badger wrote:
Badger must be reading so that he can quiz me later.
You flatter yourself.
Nope.

i was trying to flatter you.

did'nt do a good job of it though.
:roll:

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DE FACTO
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Post by DE FACTO » Thu Nov 06, 2003 2:14 pm

leaving the thread drift:

How about "flatter camp."?
To sooth all the ego's that need constant stroking.

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Post by BlueBirdPoof » Thu Nov 06, 2003 2:36 pm

"Flatter camp" may be a little too close to
Acknowledgement Camp
Come by Acknowledgement Camp to experience being known in the world. Let an Angel of Acknowledgement know in what
way you've been generous or kind or courageous, and we guarantee you'll feel better when you leave!

Hometown: San Francisco, CA
http://www.acknowledgementcamp.org
Contact: aangel (at) creativestandard (dot) com
(from http://burningman.com/themecamps_instal ... ll_al.html )

for some people

On the other hand, if your art was being the customer from hell you could run between the two, trying to get them to top each other. . .

Kinetic II

Post by Kinetic II » Thu Nov 06, 2003 2:38 pm

Badger wrote:The above just sounds like something pulled out of Google's ass.
I've noticed that in other places online but not here...so far. I hope we don't see it here.

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Don Muerto
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Re: camp eplaya?

Post by Don Muerto » Thu Nov 06, 2003 3:02 pm

Patience wrote:Don, that was awful. You're fired.
True, but don't you feel a little dirty for getting it? And where the fuck are my back wages?
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

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Don Muerto
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Post by Don Muerto » Thu Nov 06, 2003 3:05 pm

Badger wrote:That's a pretty succinct summary of where it is. The few theoretical physicists in the world who truly understand the theory - and thats all of about 60 people - try unconvincingly to insist that because string theory is wholly a mathematics based idea that it is and should be allowed to stand as supportable (and demonstrable) based solely on the calculations generated thus far. It all makes for a very interesting discussion in the parlor but in the end science has not time for such shit.

If you have an idea of how or why something is science will, in the end, demand that you 'Show us the money."
I read Michao Kaku's <u>Beyond Einstein</u> a couple years back in an attempt to learn more about string theory. What a waste of paper that book was. I have no doubt Mr. Kaku is smarter than myself, but his explanations and proofs came down to the same thing every time: <i>"It can't really be explained to someone like you, but trust me when I say this is the theory of everything."</i> -Total Horseshit.
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

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Post by BlueBirdPoof » Thu Nov 06, 2003 3:20 pm

Don Muerto wrote:
I read Michao Kaku's <u>Beyond Einstein</u> a couple years back in an attempt to learn more about string theory. What a waste of paper that book was. I have no doubt Mr. Kaku is smarter than myself, but his explanations and proofs came down to the same thing every time: <i>"It can't really be explained to someone like you, but trust me when I say this is the theory of everything."</i> -Total Horseshit.
From my experience of growning (or growing) up in the same household as a cosmologist, I learned only this. Trying to understand this stuff will make your brain hurt. (Or go round and round in circles!)

Oh, and the main reason for a Berkeley Professor to win a Nobel Prize is so he can have his (sic) very own on-campus parking space.

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Post by J » Thu Nov 06, 2003 3:24 pm

speaking of the string theory, I propose the theme be "Grand Theft: Monkey". I realise that the aren't related, but I'm horrible with segways.

J
Please forget the words that I just blurted out
It wasn't me, it was my strange and creeping doubt

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foamin' at the mouth
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Post by foamin' at the mouth » Thu Nov 06, 2003 3:24 pm

"How about "flatter camp."?
To sooth all the ego's that need constant stroking."

there is a flattery camp. they're out of Sacramento. I went there for a lovely dose. Camp members have to be truely sincere in their flattery of you or their mates make 'em go sit naked in the road for 15 minutes.

And, I have a brain crush on Trey for his succint explanation of string theory- -something that continues to confound me I just dont get it. I just can't envision so many dimensions. I'm dimensionally challenged. back to flatland.
I often heard the sorrel nag (who always loved me) crying out, ..."Take care of thyself, gentle Yahoo."

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Post by precipitate » Thu Nov 06, 2003 3:27 pm

> I'm still trying to find out how Precip knew I was at the first meeting.

I recognized your e-mail address from the diox list when you registered
for the 3playa and connected it with your name.

Why, were you incognito or something?

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Don Muerto
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Post by Don Muerto » Thu Nov 06, 2003 3:31 pm

BlueBirdPoof wrote:From my experience of growning (or growing) up in the same household as a cosmologist, I learned only this. Trying to understand this stuff will make your brain hurt. (Or go round and round in circles!)
Well, it would have been nice if he had actually presented the explanations instead of just assuring me they were valid. Normally I can more or less get my head around the concepts, -anybody got a good string theory recommendation?
Everyone is entitled to be stupid, but some abuse the privilege.

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Post by BlueBirdPoof » Thu Nov 06, 2003 3:35 pm

No, no. You are trying to meddle in the grand mysteries of science and understand things beyond the ken of mankind.

So just tithe to the high priest and stop annoying him.



(All meant in fun.)

Kinetic II

Post by Kinetic II » Thu Nov 06, 2003 3:44 pm

That will be 13%, payable to the Church of Kinetika (Care of the high priest). PM me for the address. Tithe money is appreciated, I need to remodel the living room, oops I meant the church. And I need that new Lexus so I can go out and minster to the masses. I need dependable transport you know. And I need that new laptop so I can have my 43 different styles of bibles loaded up on split screens. That way I can craft the weekly sermons to mean anything I want and have the holy scripture backing me. With all those bibles surely I can spin up any message I want. And it's all from the bible, you wouldn't question the bible now would you?

Yeah, that's just a start. I'm sure I can find other ways to spend that tithe money! Keep it coming, you don't want to neglect a church now would you? That's pretty cold to do that. Get out that checkbook, we even take debit and credit cards, Western Union Speedpay, and more. If you got the money, we have the church for you!

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Post by BlueBirdPoof » Thu Nov 06, 2003 3:46 pm

Sorry.

I only contribute to cults when I am sure the reigning guru will be having outrageous sex as well as taking all my money.

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Post by Badger » Thu Nov 06, 2003 3:49 pm

-anybody got a good string theory recommendation?
As mentioned earlier you might try 'The Elegent Universe: Superstrings, Hidden Dimensions, and the Quest for th Ultimate Theory' by Brian Greene.

Probably the best text available in conceptualizing the science in a way that doesn't anchor you down with the math. He's a pretty good popularizer of science in general and I believe aside from having a new book coming down the pipe that he'll also be doing a new show on PBS sometime in the near future.
Desert dogs drink deep.

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DE FACTO
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Post by DE FACTO » Thu Nov 06, 2003 4:07 pm

precipitate wrote:> I'm still trying to find out how Precip knew I was at the first meeting.

I recognized your e-mail address from the diox list when you registered
for the 3playa and connected it with your name.

Why, were you incognito or something?
a really bad attempt on my behalf huh?

you did pretty good though.
:lol:

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III
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Post by III » Thu Nov 06, 2003 5:05 pm

>the reigning guru will be having outrageous sex

i could probably do that. how much are you offering? (hint: it should be more than i'm currently getting for having outrageous sex)
[url]http://3playa.cultureshark.net/[/url]

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DE FACTO
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Post by DE FACTO » Thu Nov 06, 2003 5:10 pm

precipitate wrote: Why, were you incognito or something?
and hey....how did you know about the incognito anyway.


you had inside information huh? :? :)

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Isotopia
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Post by Isotopia » Thu Nov 06, 2003 5:50 pm

Please....
...... make.....it....
stop....

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