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Tiara
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Post by Tiara » Wed Nov 26, 2003 2:43 pm

After reading their disclaimer, it seems to me that an appropriate response might be to contact the Koala, and ask for space to write a rebuttal to the piece(s) that offended. An editorial apology might also be in order if that woman's photo was published without her consent.

They can't be silenced, but their words can be shown to be misguided, or just plain wrong.

Perhaps the most effective tactic would be to use irony and/or humor to ridicule their moronic remarks. (I recomend reading several posts by Don Muerto for inspiration.)

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Ivy
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Post by Ivy » Wed Nov 26, 2003 2:59 pm

Last I heard, the author was contacted, and i was under the impression that he did apologize--he honestly did not realize he was doing anyone any harm(please, don't start any arguements about that--it's already been hashed out to death). He was asked and agreed not to write any more pieces on local BM parties and apparently he said, although he clearly could not control it, he would try to keep others on the paper from writing about them also.

Although I do like Tiara's idea about a humorous, sarcastic rebuttal.

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Isotopia
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Post by Isotopia » Wed Nov 26, 2003 6:35 pm

Although I do like Tiara's idea about a humorous, sarcastic rebuttal.
That's because Tiara so rocks the planet.

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Ivy
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Post by Ivy » Wed Nov 26, 2003 6:39 pm

That's for damn sure!

I wanna be like Tiara when I grow up!

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aforceforgood
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Post by aforceforgood » Wed Nov 26, 2003 7:11 pm

Tiara wrote:Perhaps the most effective tactic would be to use irony and/or humor to ridicule their moronic remarks.
Absolutely. I'm reminded of a documentary of a wanna-be nazi skinhead, especially the part where he calls numerous "friends" to try and get them to go to a nazi skinhead rally, only to have them all decline. It was kind of funny even while it was really sad.

Now contrast that with how attacking him would reinforce his belief that he has something worth fighting for.

And do you think the publishers of this rag don't get complaints like yours all the time? I really doubt they will stop unless they get treated like the trolls they are. i.e., not reacting to their stupid crap.

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Post by technopatra » Wed Nov 26, 2003 9:29 pm

TawnyGnosis wrote:I took a tone to you Techno, because your response annoyed me. I just disagree with you on this....your tone is pretty damn self-righteous as well, that's what we do on the e-playa.
When I am completely misunderstood, I generally fault myself first, for not making myself clear. I'm guessing I didn't do such a great job of making my points:

We do not disagree on whether or not you have the right to, or should, respond to this guy. I did not state that you shouldn't have contacted him, I was trying to make you understand that you could have done it in a way that wouldn't have provoked a reaction like having a virus sent to you, and that might've gotten you some satisfaction beyond just shouting back because you were mad.

I did not say he was out to provoke you, personally, I proposed that he does this to get his jollies by pissing _anyone_ off, and that any heated response simply makes him feel good, because that was what he was after.

I agree that apathy is a large part of the reason that creeps like this act with impunity.

As to my tone, I invite you to consider that disagreement does not always equal disapproval, and re-read my first couple of posts.

I've been active on the boards long enough to appreciate the variety of expression and tone that folks have here. I've read and participated in some really amazing conversations, and the hallmark of same is that the people involved are more inquisitive than accusatory, and willing to explore differences rather than get defensive about their own position. I'm not trying to change your mind, but I would be gratified to see you acknowledge that there were other options.

Snottiness begets more snottiness, and regardless of who starts it down that path (and I'm sorry if it was me), whoever continues it is the murderer of the conversation.

rogue agent
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Post by rogue agent » Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:31 pm

TawnyGnosis wrote:This morning, he or some other "Koala" fratboy rapist internet stalker type had sent me a virus( luckily my program deleted it before I read it).
You blew your shot at legitimate action against him. You shoulda reported him to campus police for sending the virus from his school account. Do you still have the email proving he sent it?

RA

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DE FACTO
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Post by DE FACTO » Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:37 pm

rogue agent wrote:
TawnyGnosis wrote:This morning, he or some other "Koala" fratboy rapist internet stalker type had sent me a virus( luckily my program deleted it before I read it).
You blew your shot at legitimate action against him. You shoulda reported him to campus police for sending the virus from his school account. Do you still have the email proving he sent it?

RA
That's what I'm talking about. Much more productive approach.

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abeerinthemorning

Post by Guest » Thu Nov 27, 2003 2:05 am

technopatra wrote:
TawnyGnosis wrote:I took a tone to you Techno, because your response annoyed me. I just disagree with you on this....your tone is pretty damn self-righteous as well, that's what we do on the e-playa.
When I am completely misunderstood, I generally fault myself first, for not making myself clear. I'm guessing I didn't do such a great job of making my points:

We do not disagree on whether or not you have the right to, or should, respond to this guy. I did not state that you shouldn't have contacted him, I was trying to make you understand that you could have done it in a way that wouldn't have provoked a reaction like having a virus sent to you, and that might've gotten you some satisfaction beyond just shouting back because you were mad.

I did not say he was out to provoke you, personally, I proposed that he does this to get his jollies by pissing _anyone_ off, and that any heated response simply makes him feel good, because that was what he was after.

I agree that apathy is a large part of the reason that creeps like this act with impunity.

As to my tone, I invite you to consider that disagreement does not always equal disapproval, and re-read my first couple of posts.

I've been active on the boards long enough to appreciate the variety of expression and tone that folks have here. I've read and participated in some really amazing conversations, and the hallmark of same is that the people involved are more inquisitive than accusatory, and willing to explore differences rather than get defensive about their own position. I'm not trying to change your mind, but I would be gratified to see you acknowledge that there were other options.

Snottiness begets more snottiness, and regardless of who starts it down that path (and I'm sorry if it was me), whoever continues it is the murderer of the conversation.

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Wind_Borne
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Post by Wind_Borne » Thu Nov 27, 2003 2:08 am

I guess there is nothing like adversity to teach us about ourselves. And, with luck, we grow by the experience. This thread has brought up a number of interesting issues:
  • To what extent do we truly value free speech, especially that which we find offensive?
    When does free speech become slander, libel, or an invasion of privacy?
    How does one respond to an article like this? directly? with satire? ignore it?
    Does a simple disclaimer really excuse vile and disgusting behavior? or is it just a cop-out?
In dealing with these issues we also saw the limitations of the written word and how easy it is to be misunderstood (E.B. White once suggested that a reader is in trouble 50% of the time). We saw this when TawnyGnossis and Technopatra, both of whom I take to be reasonable people, found themselves at odds. It has even been suggested that the Koala is just satire (though personally I find that unlikely).

TawnyGnossis,
I remember back in school a coach saying over and over "Play your game; don't let 'em sucker you into playing their game." May I suggest in the case of the Koala, don't fight this shit on their terms, instead focus your energy on your friends and community. The hateful win only when that hate is acknowleged.

In C.S. Lewis's Great Divorce, in which residents of Hell could take a day-trip by bus to Heaven, all of Hell fit within a thimble, while Heaven was boundless. Consider that the Koala, too, could fit within a thimble; while you and your Burning Man friends roam the entire world!
"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
-- George Washington

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DE FACTO
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Post by DE FACTO » Thu Nov 27, 2003 2:17 am

Uh.....abeerinthemorning, you're starting to look like me with that post you posted.

was there something you wanted to say about technopatra & TawnyGnosis's post or did you just like what they posted or .......I dont know what .....I'm lost.
What do you mean?

:shock: :roll:

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DE FACTO
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Post by DE FACTO » Thu Nov 27, 2003 2:21 am

In dealing with these issues we also saw the limitations of the written word and how easy it is to be misunderstood (E.B. White once suggested that a reader is in trouble 50% of the time).
Wind_Borne is sounding so clear right now behind abeerinthemorning.

Or is it just that abeerinthemorning is just being smart by just staying out of it all.

:lol:

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Wind_Borne
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Post by Wind_Borne » Thu Nov 27, 2003 2:24 am

Like 50,000 monkeys typing for 50,000 years, I occasionally make sense!
"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
-- George Washington

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DE FACTO
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Post by DE FACTO » Thu Nov 27, 2003 2:27 am

Wind_Borne wrote:Like 50,000 monkeys typing for 50,000 years, I occasionally make sense!
Not true. you have always made sense. just under the circumstances, you seem so clear to me that I've just been enlightened by your wisdom.

Now I need some serious help to reconnect to the thinking of abeerinthemorning.

:lol:

(man I wish I were on something.)

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Post by Guest » Thu Nov 27, 2003 2:39 am

DE FACTO wrote:Uh.....abeerinthemorning, you're starting to look like me with that post you posted.

was there something you wanted to say about technopatra & TawnyGnosis's post or did you just like what they posted or .......I dont know what .....I'm lost.
What do you mean?

:shock: :roll:
I fucked up. I found the combination of posts enlightening enough, I wanted to send their quoted posts to myself in the form of a pm so i could refer to it whenever i felt in need of some enlightenment.
Had too many windows open, got lost as to which window i was in, and hit the wrong button. My apology for the waste o bandwidth.

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DE FACTO
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Post by DE FACTO » Thu Nov 27, 2003 2:48 am

comming from you....you can waste my bandwidth anytime.

I knew that seemed a little out of character.

I feel better now.

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tzimisce1313
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Post by tzimisce1313 » Thu Nov 27, 2003 4:04 am

tzimisce1313 wrote:ok, let me get this straight... it's ok to label someone who's political views vastly differ from your own?
ok, let me expand on my previous comment which was written as quickly as possible before i ran out the door for work.

i was stating that about the students in texas. i never understood why anyone has the right to blacklist people because they may not share the same views as everyone else. the teacher's a socialist. now if someone was teaching a class on the russian revolution and demanded that everyone read the communist manifesto by karl marx, would they be considered a communist because they were having students read pro-communism literature for the sake of understanding the russian revolution? same with the jungle. there has to come a point where one sits and thinks well, i think i have a better understanding now for having read it.
a journalism teacher who espouses the necessity of the first amendment and the presses right to be free is not a socialist. but with the tightening of the patriot act, they're causing a further schism within us society. you're either with us or against us. i hate to think that "blacklists" like that could actually restrict teaching. it's unfair to the students as a whole to have a group of conservatives labeling teachers. and in the times we live in now... it would be so easy to arrest someone for teaching a point of view that they don't necessarily agree with. it's the begininng of the new cold war.

let the propaganda machine roll!

i mean, where does the labeling start and thinking responsibly begin?

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DE FACTO
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Post by DE FACTO » Thu Nov 27, 2003 4:59 am

with the tightening of the patriot act, they're causing a further schism within us society. you're either with us or against us. i hate to think that "blacklists" like that could actually restrict teaching. it's unfair to the students as a whole to have a group of conservatives labeling teachers. and in the times we live in now... it would be so easy to arrest someone for teaching a point of view that they don't necessarily agree with. it's the begininng of the new cold war.
I hear ya. That's why I posted that link the way I posted it. The fact of the mater is, this type of thinking "arresting someone for teaching a point of view that one person or another don't necessarily agree with" is the way things are going. That's why I think it's a good idea to do something about these indivisuals in a combination of ways. say for example some of the suggestions were;

technopatra;
You should instead make a formal, written complaint to the Dean of Students at UCSD.
rogue agent;
You shoulda reported him to campus police for sending the virus from his school account. Do you still have the email proving he sent it?
Wind_Borne was saying;
remember back in school a coach saying over and over "Play your game; don't let 'em sucker you into playing their game." May I suggest in the case of the Koala, don't fight this shit on their terms, instead focus your energy on your friends and community. The hateful win only when that hate is acknowleged.
and so on.

I wonder what TawnyGnosis is thinking about and what she has in mind about the over all posts of this thread. I have a suggestion but I feel it would be to radical and out of place. I've wanted to answer drowned_saved for the longest now to the question,
like what DF? what EXACTLY would you do? or, more likely, since what i've read here seems to entail making "punishment" someone else's responsibility, what would you "have done" to these little pricks?
It all is starting to go back to what tzimisce1313 said;
it's the begininng of the new cold war.

let the propaganda machine roll!

i mean, where does the labeling start and thinking responsibly begin?
I'll wait to see if there are better suggestions, something I can learn from.
Plus, it still all makes for a good read. Better than the insidiously insipid, gibberish published in the "Koala".

Hey everybody, Happy Thanksgiving! :lol:

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DE FACTO
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Hint!

Post by DE FACTO » Thu Nov 27, 2003 5:10 am

It really helps to Know who and what you are dealing with first before you make a plan.



Life!

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DE FACTO
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Thread drift!

Post by DE FACTO » Sat Nov 29, 2003 4:22 am


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Mithra
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Post by Mithra » Mon Dec 01, 2003 11:33 pm

deleted
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Bob
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Post by Bob » Tue Dec 02, 2003 8:10 am

And reposting email to the eplaya under a fake id is courageous?

Namaste, dood.

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Mithra
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Post by Mithra » Tue Dec 02, 2003 8:46 am

Deleted
Last edited by Mithra on Tue Dec 09, 2003 8:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

Kinetic II

Post by Kinetic II » Tue Dec 02, 2003 9:44 am

That was a good zinger sent Bob's way at first glance...but his real name is Bob Stahl and he is very well known as part of DPW and the source of the oft cited shade structure guide. I had no idea who Mithra was until you showed up. (And I just sub'd to the SD lists last week to learn more about this very issue).

Anyway on to my point. You run into an unwritten online rule that I hit last week. Posting somebody's emails even if they were sent to you is considered wrong and a breech of online etiquette. (No matter how nasty they get, regardless of how much I thought it helped communicate my story, the majority felt it was wrong). I got quite a few negative comments about doing that on another board, and I'm seeing the same happen here. That's why your getting the negativity/ backlash.

That being said I for one am glad to have another part of the story filled in even if the approach taken ruffled feathers. It's making more sense now. Thanks for the posts.

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Plaid
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Post by Plaid » Tue Dec 02, 2003 10:29 am

Kinetic II wrote:Anyway on to my point. You run into an unwritten online rule that I hit last week. Posting somebody's emails even if they were sent to you is considered wrong and a breech of online etiquette. (No matter how nasty they get, regardless of how much I thought it helped communicate my story, the majority felt it was wrong). I got quite a few negative comments about doing that on another board, and I'm seeing the same happen here. That's why your getting the negativity/ backlash.
Kinetic,

I completely agree with you about reposting emails, 99.9% of the time... though I was standing near this girl when the picture was taken at the event, and have been knee deep in the SDBM list activity, and think that this reposting is quite called for.

Not only did this gentleman (Mike) post another list member's private emails to him on our list first, but did so acting holier-than-thou and blameless. Posting his inflamatory email (everywhere, IMHO) is the best example of how badly he's treated members of our community. And, being the recovering journalist that I am... I agree with Eddie/Mithra's posting of the ENTIRE email, including the address: It's best to give the complete, untouched story, so that it can be seen that all the spice was coming from one (verifiable) direction: the Koala writer's.

AND, how better to call bullshit on the "I didn't know I was hurting anyone with my article" than to show more evidence of his malice?

Plaid
(Jennifer D. Ramsey, for those worried that I'm not standing behind my name... though like Mithra, Plaid is more my name than Jenn has ever been)

rogue agent
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Post by rogue agent » Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:13 pm

DE FACTO wrote:
rogue agent wrote:You shoulda reported him to campus police for sending the virus from his school account. Do you still have the email proving he sent it?
If someone intentionally sends you an email virus, that's not free speech, it's a crime. The answer to objectionable speech is more speech. The answer to crime is punishment.

RA

Kinetic II

Post by Kinetic II » Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:37 pm

Looks like I might want to adjust that proposed FAQ / etiquette list to mention that the posting of other people's e-mails is highly discouraged. Notice it's not a ban, just highly discouraged.

I have to agree the post fills in some gaps.

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Ivy
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Post by Ivy » Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:46 pm

I know who Mithra is.

While I totally agree with his right to post, I have to wonder why.

This topic was pretty well dead here on the eplaya. Before Mithra even said: "I'll ask that you let it lie." I agree with that.

So, now that he posted his message, there've been ten new ones. Interesting for someone who wants to let things die.

I don't think he did this on purpose; I seriously doubt that his post was intended to provoke anyone, certainly not to the extent it did.

Funny, though, isn't it?

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stuart
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Post by stuart » Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:50 pm

Eddie is a pretty funny guy though.


He threatened to smack my dick if he caught me peeing on the playa.

'Hey Mutha Fucka!' was his preferred daily greeting.

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Ivy
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Post by Ivy » Tue Dec 02, 2003 1:49 pm

I love Eddie.

I only met him briefly at the decom, but anyone who eats glass is a friend of mine.

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