Guns, Love Em or Leave Em

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ygmir
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Post by ygmir » Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:38 pm

maybe triple the vest and get leggings, and, go as the Pillsbury Dough Boy.......
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gyre
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Post by gyre » Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:14 pm

Image
Image
Image

Of note is that everywhere you see fabric on the vest has equal coverage,including the collar and epaulets.

Some vests only cover center mass from straight on.

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Post by can't sit still » Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:16 pm

It looks like Americans are better armed with every passing day;
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=96677#
Just imagine; millions upon millions of freshly armed people with no combat training, no defense training,,,, but they know damn well which end is dangerous. Don't forget all the paintgun people who are going to move up to the real thing and defend their home base.
Forget the vest, buy some steel plates for one room in your house.
Imagine going from paintgun to 9 mm. Geee, this thing seems top go right through walls. :(
I don't post things because I believe that they are the absolute truth. I post them because I believe that they should be considered.

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Post by gyre » Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:50 pm

My old house was fairly bullet resistant.
Living in a weaker structure has not escaped my notice.
But I have to go outside some time.

Testing ammunition made it shockingly clear how difficult it is to stop a rifle round though.
You really need the hardened plate.
It is available in quarter inch though and readily stops a 30 calibre round.

Armortex looks good and comes in 4' by 8' sheets.
http://www.armortex.com/Composite.html

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Post by Risky » Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:07 pm

Oldguy wrote:When I was a deputy for Washoe County I wore a "Second Chance" vest primarily to defend against small hanguns and knife strikes. It wouldn't be good for rifle or large handgun rounds. I'd recommend a center of mass plate or doubling layers. Remember no vest can protect you from a head shot. That's where I wound aim, or the groin. There's a reason swat goes for full coverage.
Washoe County for years only recommended Level IIA, which didn't protect officers from the load usually carried in their own guns. (Most officers are shot with their own firearms.) Level IIIA has the ability to stop the higher velocity 9mm and 45acp, as well as 357mag.

None of the above Levels of armor will protect from stab or spike. Correctional officers need EBS Edged Blade & Spike protection, which is tested and rated completely different, to protect against the shanks made by prisoners.

The art of body armor is to get as much protection possible without the weight and bulk. The higher the protection, the higher the price. If you can maintain the protection while using new technology of lighter and thinner fabrics, the higher the price.

The Levels of armor are tested and approved by NIJ. Look for the NIJ Standard numbers for the applicable protection level. Check out the National Institute of Justice:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/pubs-sum/223054.htm

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Post by Bin Noddin » Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:35 pm

All right, sometimes I can't resist stirring a shitpot. Gyre, are you expecting to be shot soon? Whassamattyou?
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Crime Central

Post by gyre » Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:51 pm

Mostly it's just where I live.
I am currently prosecuting my next door neighbor for burglary and trying to put everything into storage in the next month or so, so there is a lot of activity and exposure at the moment.
A burglary the day I came back and one a week later too.
I gave up on diplomacy.
The new signs read 'Steal Here, Die Here'.

And I did have a hit put on me by a gang a few years ago.
I'm still here.

People aren't very careful about random firing around here either, especially at new year's.
Worse in my friend's neighborhood.

This is why I find the crime in oakland so relaxing.
So safe compared to here.


(King of the Hill)
What do they call the bad part of Memphis now?
Oh yeah.
Memphis.

______________

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Post by cowboyangel » Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:18 pm

Oppose California's bill to require thumb prints and registration of ammo purchases.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/threa ... _id=968978

Call Gov BoneHead AustrianMuthaF***** and say "No"
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believe is false."- William Casey, CIA Director 1981

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Post by gyre » Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:31 pm

cowboyangel wrote:Oppose California's bill to require thumb prints and registration of ammo purchases.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/threa ... _id=968978

Call Gov BoneHead AustrianMuthaF***** and say "No"
Perhaps california's best chance to join the united states is to support federal legislation overriding insane local laws.
You might have a good shot at that.

The only way I could obtain self defense ammo recently was direct from the manufacturer in Sturgis.

Expect to pay ten times as much as now or higher, if this law goes into effect.

By the way, the P380 is still in such demand that my order from gun source still hasn't come in.
I was right to buy the random one that came in locally.

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Post by gyre » Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:22 pm

Did I ever mention the "sign shop" that is the center of crime around here?
They claim it's all cleaned up now.
Supposedly a rehab center for ex-cons, I recently tracked someone carrying stolen goods right back there.
Many busts there.
They were behind the break in at a friend's house where they beat someone to death in his living room, dragged the guy out and took him to the sign shop and were torturing him when the cops arrived.

And there was the murder of my next door neighbors that only stopped when someone showed up with a gun and fired back.
They were so determined they chased one of the people through the house hunting him down.
They would have killed the whole family without someone showing up armed.
The determination to kill seems unusual.
They are still on the street now.

Then the house was a crackhouse, which finally ended with stabbed/hospital, stabbed/jail (for a day anyway), and arrest of some other residents.
Three days after the new tenants moved in, they broke into my house.
It took intense lobbying to even get charges filed and they were reduced.

I estimate crime is only reported at 10% to 20% here.

http://www.wmctv.com/global/story.asp?s=6192449
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200807/memphis-crime

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Post by ygmir » Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:02 am

gyre wrote:
cowboyangel wrote:Oppose California's bill to require thumb prints and registration of ammo purchases.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/threa ... _id=968978

Call Gov BoneHead AustrianMuthaF***** and say "No"
Perhaps california's best chance to join the united states is to support federal legislation overriding insane local laws.
You might have a good shot at that.

The only way I could obtain self defense ammo recently was direct from the manufacturer in Sturgis.

Expect to pay ten times as much as now or higher, if this law goes into effect.

By the way, the P380 is still in such demand that my order from gun source still hasn't come in.
I was right to buy the random one that came in locally.
that would be the most stupid thing, IMHO, that could happen......

the 10th ammendment is there for a reason......and, a good one.......even if it is mostly ignored........and, keeps the feds out of more than they'd get into, locally, if given the chance........
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Post by cowboyangel » Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:38 am

Where is "here" Gyre? Damn. I remodeled a former crack house in Berkeley about 12 years ago....nightmare....shots at the neighbors house at night, tenants with loaded weapons...glad to be outa there.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believe is false."- William Casey, CIA Director 1981

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Post by gyre » Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:08 am

cowboyangel wrote:Where is "here" Gyre? Damn. I remodeled a former crack house in Berkeley about 12 years ago....nightmare....shots at the neighbors house at night, tenants with loaded weapons...glad to be outa there.
Memphis

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Post by gyre » Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:20 am

ygmir wrote: that would be the most stupid thing, IMHO, that could happen......

the 10th ammendment is there for a reason......and, a good one.......even if it is mostly ignored........and, keeps the feds out of more than they'd get into, locally, if given the chance........
You definitely have a point.

But my right to personal security shouldn't vanish because I cross an invisible line.

And california has been telling the other states what to do in terms of product design for years.
And that has proven to be an incredibly bad idea.
European companies will no longer contemplate marketing to a balkanized usa.
We weren't going to get any of the new high efficiency diesels until california agreed.
And they foisted years of experimental crap designs on cars in the rest of the country.
That interference with other state's rights will bite them in the ass.


I don't think any government entity has the authority to interfere with my security.
It is now ridiculous that we have almost an entire country in agreement on personal defense laws, until you reach the california border.

There has to be a sane approach.

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Post by cowboyangel » Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:04 pm

Memphis...damn.

True about California. But we're talking about magazine design, right? Almost anything that can shoot more than a 10 round clip will also shoot a 10 round clip. Ronnie Barret figured out how to get around California's ban on .50

I'm a liberal and proud of it, though I hate labels and I don't agree with every liberal position, that's normal, I hope. Right wing 2cd amendment people and us have to join forces on some issues instead of their always playing into the hands of the rich idiots on the right wing media (Hanity, Beck, Coulter Rush etc). When it comes time to defend my neighborhood, I don't care what idiotic party you come from, you're my neighbor.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believe is false."- William Casey, CIA Director 1981

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Post by ygmir » Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:27 pm

cowboyangel wrote:Memphis...damn.

True about California. But we're talking about magazine design, right? Almost anything that can shoot more than a 10 round clip will also shoot a 10 round clip. Ronnie Barret figured out how to get around California's ban on .50

I'm a liberal and proud of it, though I hate labels and I don't agree with every liberal position, that's normal, I hope. Right wing 2cd amendment people and us have to join forces on some issues instead of their always playing into the hands of the rich idiots on the right wing media (Hanity, Beck, Coulter Rush etc). When it comes time to defend my neighborhood, I don't care what idiotic party you come from, you're my neighbor.
*e-shake of Cowboyangels hand*
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Post by Risky » Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:44 pm


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Post by gyre » Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:19 pm

cowboyangel wrote:Memphis...damn.

True about California. But we're talking about magazine design, right? Almost anything that can shoot more than a 10 round clip will also shoot a 10 round clip. Ronnie Barret figured out how to get around California's ban on .50

I'm a liberal and proud of it, though I hate labels and I don't agree with every liberal position, that's normal, I hope. Right wing 2cd amendment people and us have to join forces on some issues instead of their always playing into the hands of the rich idiots on the right wing media (Hanity, Beck, Coulter Rush etc). When it comes time to defend my neighborhood, I don't care what idiotic party you come from, you're my neighbor.
I wasn't even thinking of magazines, though that is an example.
There are california guns with ten round mags that can't be switched.
Very cheap now because no one else wants them.

California really wags the dog when it comes to products made for the whole country.


The political lobby would be much more effective if the nra and associates would recognize the real gun owner out there, but that would sabotage the right wing position that there is an enemy to be feared on the other side, especially when it comes to other issues.
It makes for some very weird discussions.
The fear mongering really does reach even some very smart people.
And it doesn't help that the democratic party has taken some anti-gun positions in the past that represented very few in the country.

The wild rumors that are started are at least considered by many people with chilling effect.
And a corresponding loss of credibility when they are lies.

The nra would have had very little success if they didn't have support from most of the population, at least on general issues of personal defense.
The brady campaign has usually been so crazed as to make the nra look sane.

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Post by cowboyangel » Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:28 pm

Thanks for that link Risky. Great information. Everybody should read that.

Are you in law enforcement?
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believe is false."- William Casey, CIA Director 1981

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Post by gyre » Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:38 pm

An excellent article though I would make some exceptions to the concealed carry part.
I was advised by a cop years ago to let someone who was a threat know I was carrying.
It is a judgment call.

We don't have a concealed requirement here.

A funny thing has happened as crime has increased here.
Carrying a rifle openly has no real reaction in public in dangerous areas anymore.
Kind of a surprise to me.
We were looking at my friend's new FN FAL out on the street, a fairly serious looking rifle and a postman came by.
I got the mail, we talked a bit and he went on.
I don't think he even noticed the rifle.

The person checking on my house while I was gone was openly carrying a kalashnikov and besides being prepared, it is intended to send the message that I am serious about security.
And still a burglary the day I got back.


The section about attitude and preparation is dead on.

It is worth noting that many criminals know they will react faster than you and will always assume that you will freeze.
You will either have to fire at such people or come close to it.
A show on dateline on self defense use had many examples of this.
In every case, the criminal had a chance to retreat and charged.
Be prepared for that.
It really happens.

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Post by gyre » Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:49 pm

Moreover, a harasser who has picked you as his victim and knows you carry a gun can create a situation where there are no other witnesses present, and then make the false claim that you threatened him with the weapon. This is a very serious felony called Aggravated Assault. It is his word against yours. The fact that you are indeed carrying the gun he describes you pointing at him can make his lie more believable than your truth, to the ears of judge and jury.
I had someone try this many years ago.
Since I was already prosecuting them, they didn't have a great deal of credibility.
They tried to use citizen dispute as leverage.
I talked to the prosecutor on the phone.
I asked if the other person was there.
They said yes.
I asked if he had any holes in him.
The answer was no.
I told him if I had pointed a weapon at him, I would have fired.
I told him to inform the crook of that.

I declined to participate and told them to either file charges against me or drop it.
They dropped it..

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Post by gyre » Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:02 pm

Image

Ad campaign in UK
Turns out a knife is an effective weapon for criminals when no one has a gun.

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Post by ygmir » Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:44 am

just don't bring a knife to a gun fight.......
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Post by ygmir » Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:53 am

oops......double post
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Post by TomServo » Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:44 am

FUCK THE SYSTEM! I'm facing 3 years without beer, for an accident I've fully owned up to. It was an idiotic mistake. But one Id never make again. I only wish they were as harsh on idiot drivers....about80% of you. Noone was hurt, and I've learned my lesson.

Guess I'm not running the bar for a while.
anything worth doing is worth overdoing..

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Post by gyre » Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:15 am

TomServo wrote:FUCK THE SYSTEM! I'm facing 3 years without beer, for an accident I've fully owned up to. It was an idiotic mistake. But one Id never make again. I only wish they were as harsh on idiot drivers....about80% of you. Noone was hurt, and I've learned my lesson.

Guess I'm not running the bar for a while.
Seems very harsh.
Are they claiming it wasn't an accident?
Some people don't face that kind of penalty for accidentally shooting someone.

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Post by gyre » Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:19 am

ygmir wrote:just don't bring a knife to a gun fight.......
Thing is, it's all knife fights in the uk unless the police are involved.

Instead of trying to take guns away from criminals, they are now trying to take edged weapons away from them, now that citizens are disarmed.
I'm thinking that may prove difficult.

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Post by ygmir » Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:16 am

[youtube][/youtube]
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Post by TomServo » Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:01 am

gyre wrote:
TomServo wrote:FUCK THE SYSTEM! I'm facing 3 years without beer, for an accident I've fully owned up to. It was an idiotic mistake. But one Id never make again. I only wish they were as harsh on idiot drivers....about80% of you. Noone was hurt, and I've learned my lesson.

Guess I'm not running the bar for a while.
Seems very harsh.
Are they claiming it wasn't an accident?
Some people don't face that kind of penalty for accidentally shooting someone.
Don't know what they're thinking. Had an accidental discharge, cause I was being stupid, called the police to report it...and now they're treating me like a criminal. My only guess, is because it was with an "assault weapon." I don't mind the 60 days, but 3 YEARS WITHOUT BEER?!
anything worth doing is worth overdoing..

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Post by gyre » Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:07 am

You called the police?
Why?
Does your attorney want to appeal?

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