Ethical Question--Please deposit 2 cents...

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girl
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Ethical Question--Please deposit 2 cents...

Post by girl » Thu Jan 15, 2004 7:09 pm

Say you ordered your textbooks from a virtual bookstore who held a total monopoly on providing textbooks to students at very non-discounted price. When your textbooks arrive you determine that they have inadvertantly sent you a duplicate order of textbooks without charge.
Do you:

1)Repack the books and return them with a brief note explaining that they have been mailed in error or

2)Return the books for a full refund, allowing you to use the other set for the cost of shipping.

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aforceforgood
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Post by aforceforgood » Fri Jan 16, 2004 12:41 am

TOTAL monopoly? Aren't there online sources for these books? I think I remember hearing about a guy starting an online half.com-type of biz for school textbooks.
Be the dime you seek.

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girl
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Post by girl » Fri Jan 16, 2004 6:15 am

Okay surely someone has an opinion here???? -- Total monopoly in that while the texts themselves are avail. from other online sources, the books are shrinkwrapped with cd's containing coursework that are ~only~ available through this particular bookstore. You can buy the books elsewhere but the assignments won't be there so they won't do you any good.

But that wasn't really the issue...

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nipples
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Post by nipples » Fri Jan 16, 2004 6:34 am

I like this question, girl.

From the standpoint of economics, they would rightfully charge you shipping & restocking on the returned books if thinking you were returning the whole order. You would have created that "penalty", and perhaps think it further proof of their greed?

From a karmic (Hindui/Buddist) standpoint, it is possible that as you assert, their loss may be ordained by their prior practices.O might it be instead from a scientific standpoint possible that their high prices are wrought in part from shipping errors on every 1,500th order, which you could point out & maybe their prices would drop a smidge? I do not know.

Also from the karma arena, if I were to "take" (the books for instance) after "justifiing" an enemy for myself, is my karma/soul made less by none other than me? Karma/soul being where it is I have placed myself.. ie... an enemy imagined instead of a freind? For a more obvious example there is Hitler, imagining/making enemies, eventually living in a bunker. When I find myself living in a virtual (or figurative) bunker, is it a sign that I have imagined my own enemies? Projection is to "justify" ones own intentions: "They(I) have weapons of mass destruction, and they (I!) want to attack " is a recent familiar example of note.

From the Christian ethos, "Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord".. meaning (to me) not that God is vindictive, but that you do not want to suffer that and should give over any thought of doing so. To save oneself from self incrimination by not entering the arena of judgement. Also, "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us", means (to me), that if I do not judge others, I will not be judged. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", ad infinitum.

Sort of like at B-Man the seemingly agnostic practice of "forgiving" the naked guy with a gourd on his dick sets you free from self incrimination over the innocent & righteous desire to wear NIPPLE CLIPS.... it can be interpreted from both science and spirit as a Truth. The effect on your mind from the extension of love versus projecting of hatred.

Or, from the Pinochio handbook (my favorite!), Jiminia Cricketious sayeth "Let Your Conscience be Your Guide".

Each moment that I am judgemental i am not happy. I thought i had "It" just two days ago... total peace that I'd never let go of. "The true price of peace is eternal vigilance". I think that was Churchill? oops, no, it was George C. Marshall, former Secretary of State. To me, it is vigilance of thought, to not "go there", to the vindictive projection of evil onto others, but be vigilant for peace..... not war. That there is no price for peace because the "price" is peace! Winston S. Churchill said "Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened".

Whatever happens, you can do no wrong, my little sweet. Not a big deal, as you will always inevitably grow from rather than be lessor for any experience. It's in the cards that you are simply marvelous, always & forever beautific. You know it, I know it, they know it. Each of us.
Last edited by nipples on Fri Jan 16, 2004 11:20 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Das Bus
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Post by Das Bus » Fri Jan 16, 2004 7:57 am

I say give away the duplicate set to another student who is in need.
: )
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stuart
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Post by stuart » Fri Jan 16, 2004 11:18 am

I second the Bus!



<btw, textbooks are a source of graft in the public school arena>

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Chai Guy
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Post by Chai Guy » Fri Jan 16, 2004 1:01 pm

I third the bus! (and ask the recipient of the gifted books to send the company a little thank you note).

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nipples
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Squish the messenger

Post by nipples » Fri Jan 16, 2004 1:04 pm

Oh pooh.

I spelled Pinocchio wrong.. went to re-read the book just now & see that there was no "Jiminy", and the Cricket never said "Let your conscience be your guide". My apologies to the author Carlo Collodi for interpreting from a Disney adaptation I had imagined... my book is from the:

1883

PINOCCHIO: THE ADVENTURES OF A PUPPET

by Carlo Collodi

translated by M. A. Murray

CHAPTER IV

THE STORY OF PINOCCHIO AND THE TALKING-CRICKET,

FROM WHICH WE SEE THAT NAUGHTY BOYS CANNOT ENDURE

TO BE CORRECTED BY THOSE WHO KNOW MORE THAN THEY DO -

WELL then, children, I must tell you that whilst poor Geppetto was being taken to prison for no fault of his, that imp Pinocchio, finding himself free from the clutches of the carabineer, ran off as fast as his legs could carry him. That he might reach home the quicker he rushed across the fields, and in his mad hurry he jumped high banks, thorn hedges, and ditches full of water, exactly as a kid or a leveret would have done if pursued by hunters.

Having arrived at the house he found the street door ajar. He pushed it open, went in, and having secured the latch threw himself seated on the ground and gave a great sigh of satisfaction.

But his satisfaction did not last long, for he heard some one in the room who was saying:

"Cri-cri-cri!"

"Who calls me?" said Pinocchio in a fright.

"It is I!"

Pinocchio turned round and saw a big cricket crawling slowly up the wall.

"Tell me, Cricket, who may you be?"

"I am the Talking-cricket, and I have lived in this room a hundred years and more."

"Now, however, this room is mine," said the puppet, "and if you would do me a pleasure go away at once, without even turning round."

"I will not go," answered the Cricket, "until I have told you a great truth."

"Tell it me, then, and be quick about it."

"Woe to those boys who rebel against their parents, and run away capriciously from home. They will never come to any good in the world, and sooner or later they will repent bitterly."

"Sing away, Cricket, as you please, and as long as you please. For me, I have made up my mind to run away to-morrow at daybreak, because if I remain I shall not escape the fate of all other boys; I shall be sent to school and shall be made to study either by love or by force. To tell you in confidence, I have no wish to learn; it is much more amusing to run after butterflies, or to climb trees and to take the young birds out of their nests."

"Poor little goose! But do you not know that in that way you will grow up a perfect donkey, and that every one will make game of you?"

"Hold your tongue, you wicked ill-omened croaker!" shouted Pinocchio.

But the Cricket, who was patient and philosophical, instead of becoming angry at this impertinence, continued in the same tone:

"But if you do not wish to go to school why not at least learn a trade, if only to enable you to earn honestly a piece of bread!"

"Do you want me to tell you?" replied Pinocchio, who was beginning to lose patience. "Amongst all the trades in the world there is only one that really takes my fancy."

"And that trade- what is it?"

"It is to eat, drink, sleep, and amuse myself, and to lead a vagabond life from morning to night."

"As a rule," said the Talking-cricket with the same composure, "all those who follow that trade end almost always either in a hospital or in prison."

"Take care, you wicked ill-omened croaker!... Woe to you if I fly into a passion!..."

"Poor Pinocchio! I really pity you!..."

"Why do you pity me?"

"Because you are a puppet and, what is worse, because you have a wooden head."

At these last words Pinocchio jumped up in a rage, and snatching a wooden hammer from the bench he threw it at the Talking-cricket.

Perhaps he never meant to hit him; but unfortunately it struck him exactly on the head, so that the poor Cricket had scarcely breath to cry cri-cri-cri, and then he remained dried up and flattened against the wall.
Last edited by nipples on Sat Jan 17, 2004 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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aforceforgood
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Post by aforceforgood » Fri Jan 16, 2004 1:25 pm

And the lesson we can take from that is; "Blockheads don't take criticism well, so be ready to jump after giving it."

Great posts Nipples.
Be the dime you seek.

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Post by aforceforgood » Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:41 pm

Why is it that the online companies don't send the cd's with them? That seems odd.

And don't forget the "can of worms" angle of it; you could actually get ensnared in a wrangle by returning them. They screwed up, you're under no obligation to expend any effort to rectify their error. US law states that if someone sends something to you that you didn't order, you can keep it without incurring any penalty. I'm assuming these books were sent via US postal service? Not sure if that same statute would apply to fedex or UPS. Though the principle's the same, and I can't see them being able to hold you accountable for their error.

I like the gifting idea.
Be the dime you seek.

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Badger
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Post by Badger » Fri Jan 16, 2004 3:09 pm

Do you:

1)Repack the books and return them with a brief note explaining that they have been mailed in error or

2)Return the books for a full refund, allowing you to use the other set for the cost of shipping.
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Ethical question? Why are you even asking us? You know the answer.

You knew the answer before you posted the message and prefaced it with the whole 'monopoly' thing.

You know what needs to be done. Just go fucking do it rather than wanking around here for an answer that will justify your impulse to keep the things.

Believe it or not, some things really are cut and dry.
Desert dogs drink deep.

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aforceforgood
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Post by aforceforgood » Fri Jan 16, 2004 5:29 pm

Badger, you assume that because she didn't pay for what she received, that she is obligated to expend time and effort to rectify the companys error. This isn't the case, either morally or legally. If she wants to be nice, she can, but then again, she can also choose how she wants to be nice, given that the company isn't being very nice in charging too much for the books, (that are USED) therefore, it's her decision to either;

gift them to someone in need

or

send them back to the company

or

do nothing.

She did nothing illegal or immoral to cause the situation, so the books legally belong to her.
Be the dime you seek.

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Badger
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Post by Badger » Fri Jan 16, 2004 6:58 pm

Badger, you assume that because she didn't pay for what she received, that she is obligated to expend time and effort to rectify the company's error.
I thought we were talking about ethics here. Not the sloppy 'situational' version that's currently so convienient and 'de rigor' among those seeking end runs around doing the right thing and for the right reason.

You're right. She's not obligated to do any of the things you note above. That's part of the quandry I guess. The moral/ethical friction (see temptation) that can arise out of a situation or circumstance in which (in this instance) providence seems to have 'gifted' our enquiring reader with something more than she asked for at a price substantially less than what she - by her initial purchase - was all too willing to pay for. Initially.

Doing nothing to recify the company's error is NOT the same as taking advantage OF that error and, doing something else with the materials (keeping it, giving it away, selling it or otherwise profiting from the mistake.

There is a distinction and its color isn't grey. At least not through the eyes I see the world with.
Desert dogs drink deep.

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Post by Booker » Fri Jan 16, 2004 9:37 pm

The company's shipping people made the mistake. They are the ones with a duty of diligence to send the right order, not too much and not too little. So the question becomes: if they fail in that duty, do I have a duty to help them correct their error?

The issues around what the resources cost are pure obfuscation. First, you don't know the costs that went into producing the materials. (I've worked in the textbook biz--the costs of brining you quality materials pay decent living wages to a lot of honest professionals.) If you did, do you trust yourself to judge them objectively? And if you do, so what? The resources are worth what buyers are willing to pay for them. You were willing to pay the price, so the extra copies are just that--more than you were willilng to accept for your money.

But I don't see any b/w rules here. Chance has dropped something valuable into your lap. That's no automatic sin on your part. The question now is this: What do you want to be? Do you want to be an opportunist that gains whatever advantage is available? Plenty of political language to justify that. Do you want to feel above opportunism, some greater sort of being who isn't subject to material temptations? Plenty of ego-talk to cover that position, too. You can find explanations that make it work either way. Decide what you agreed to buy and what you want to feel about yourself, then act in accordance with that decision.

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Post by Badger » Fri Jan 16, 2004 10:23 pm

What do you want to be? Do you want to be an opportunist that gains whatever advantage is available? Plenty of political language to justify that. Do you want to feel above opportunism, some greater sort of being who isn't subject to material temptations? Plenty of ego-talk to cover that position, too. You can find explanations that make it work either way. Decide what you agreed to buy and what you want to feel about yourself, then act in accordance with that decision.
Are we dancing here on the head of a pin here?

Maybe.

Booker, your words are the perfect succinct summary of what the issue are around the question asked. To me the answer is obvious but that's just my perspective and one that is pretty much black and white. It's also one grounded in perhaps in a bit too much hubris on my part.

Thanks for clouding my perspective enough to give me pause to think.
Desert dogs drink deep.

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girl
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Post by girl » Fri Jan 16, 2004 10:54 pm

Wow, now there are some really great posts here! I posted the question as somewhat of an experiment to amuse myself and once again burners have totally met my hopes and expectations. I was involved in a debate with several aquaintances who all stated that an individual would have to be a fool to pass up an opportunity to get textbooks for free. The standard argument was that the perceived wrong of overpriced course materials excused the deception, and it would almost be a responsibility of the individual to seek the advantage. This made me curious about what peple would say about this on average. I spend time around people of differing ages and interests. Some are friends, some are people I work with. I have posed this question right and left for the last day or so. Some of the people would never shoplift or otherwise steal and yet with the exception of this board no one has entertained an opinion that did not involve using the error for material gain.

Thanks, its really nice to be able to breath.

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nipples
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Post by nipples » Fri Jan 16, 2004 11:30 pm

(book review by http://www.book-log.com/20030106045937478.htm )

The Giving Tree by Shel Silverstein

Reading level: Ages 4-8

To say that this particular apple tree is a "giving tree" is an understatement. In Shel Silverstein's popular tale of few words and simple line drawings, a tree starts out as a leafy playground, shade provider, and apple bearer for a rambunctious little boy. Making the boy happy makes the tree happy, but with time it becomes more challenging for the generous tree to meet his needs.

When he asks for money, she suggests that he sell her apples. When he asks for a house, she offers her branches for lumber. When the boy is old, too old and sad to play in the tree, he asks the tree for a boat. She suggests that he cut her down to a stump so he can craft a boat out of her trunk. He unthinkingly does it. At this point in the story, the double-page spread shows a pathetic solitary stump, poignantly cut down to the heart the boy once carved into the tree as a child that said "M.E. + T." "And then the tree was happy... but not really." When there's nothing left of her, the boy returns again as an old man, needing a quiet place to sit and rest. The stump offers up her services, and he sits on it. "And the tree was happy." While the message of this book is unclear (Take and take and take? Give and give and give? Complete self-sacrifice is good? Complete self-sacrifice is infinitely sad?), Silverstein has perhaps deliberately left the book open to interpretation.

Book Description
"Once there was a tree ... and she loved a little boy." So begins a story Of unforgettable perception, beautifully written and illustrated by the gifted and versatile Shel Silverstein.

Every day the boy would come to the tree to eat her apples, swing from her branches, or slide down her trunk ... and the tree was happy. But as the boy grew older he began to want more from the tree, and the tree gave and gave and gave.

This is a tender story, touched with sadness, aglow with consolation. Shel Silverstein has created a moving parable for readers of all ages that offers an affecting interpretation of the gift of giving and a serene acceptance of another's capacity to love in return.
Last edited by nipples on Sat Jan 17, 2004 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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aforceforgood
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Post by aforceforgood » Fri Jan 16, 2004 11:35 pm

What if magazine companies were to send you their magazine without you having ordered it and bill you if you didn't return them?

And what if they kept doing it, again and again, obligating Kelly to spend the precious seconds of her life "doing the right thing" by returning them? Obviously, when we take my argument to it's illogical extreme, we see that she is not obligated to perform this action, morally or legally, since she did nothing to cause the situation.

If she wants to do it, that's fine, and gets extra karma points for doing so, but I can certainly understand why she would not want to help the company that she feels has overcharged her. Maybe she is hoping their shipping department is so inefficient that this company will go out of business and be replaced by one that will charge a fairer price for the textbooks.

I would never keep something I knew an individual sent me mistakenly, but a company that overcharges me for their product? Well, I'm honest, but that's a whole different story.

It's been said that the value of the books is irrelevant to the crux of the decision necessary here, and I disagree. I feel they're taking advantage of their monopoly. And the money made on each successive resale of the book adds nothing to the pockets of those who wrote it in the first place. It's pure profit, aside from shipping and handling costs, just like renting videos. Why should I feel like helping a company that takes advantage? It's not like kindness shown to a person who may be greedy that might make them reconsider the benefits of dealing fairly with people- a business is highly unlikely to change it's policies in response to this kind of action. By definition, a business will charge the highest price it can get away with.

Add into the equation the likelihood that the company will get those books back from the student gifted with them at the end of that school year, and it becomes even less injurious to that company, which set the tone by overcharging for the books in the first place. They deserve mercy why exactly?

Look, I am somewhat taking the devil's advocate position here, my first reaction would be to return them, and I have done just that on a number of occasions, returning money when given too much change, going back and paying for items I wasn't charged for, etc. In each of those instances, there was an individual who would have borne the impact if I hadn't. Companies whose "consciences" are guided by the bottom line are not deserving of the same consideration IMO. I tend to see it as foolishness rather than honesty to help this business be more successful when it is already a monopoly.

And will that needy student appreciate the fact that you have given yourself an ego boost more than they would appreciate the gift of the books? Because that's all that returning them will accomplish.
Be the dime you seek.

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nipples
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Post by nipples » Sat Jan 17, 2004 12:05 am

Lyrics by E.Y. Harburg.

Oh Lydia, oh Lydia, say, have you met Lydia?
Lydia The Tattooed Lady.
She has eyes that folks adore so,
and a torso even more so.
Lydia, oh Lydia, that encyclo-pidia.
Oh Lydia The Queen of Tattoo.
On her back is The Battle of Waterloo.
Beside it, The Wreck of the Hesperus too.
And proudly above waves the red, white, and blue.
You can learn a lot from Lydia!

La-la-la...la-la-la.
La-la-la...la-la-la.

When her robe is unfurled she will show you the world,
if you step up and tell her where.
For a dime you can see Kankakee or Paree,
or Washington crossing The Delaware.

La-la-la...la-la-la.
La-la-la...la-la-la.

Oh Lydia, oh Lydia, say, have you met Lydia?
Lydia The Tattooed Lady.
When her muscles start relaxin',
up the hill comes Andrew Jackson.
Lydia, oh Lydia, that encyclo-pidia.
Oh Lydia The Queen of them all.
For two bits she will do a mazurka in jazz,
with a view of Niagara that nobody has.
And on a clear day you can see Alcatraz.
You can learn a lot from Lydia!

La-la-la...la-la-la.
La-la-la...la-la-la.

Come along and see Buffalo Bill with his lasso.
Just a little classic by Mendel Picasso.
Here is Captain Spaulding exploring the Amazon.
Here's Godiva, but with her pajamas on.

La-la-la...la-la-la.
La-la-la...la-la-la.

Here is Grover Whelan unveilin' The Trilon.
Over on the west coast we have Treasure Isle-on.
Here's Nijinsky a-doin' the rhumba.
Here's her social security numba.

La-la-la...la-la-la.
La-la-la...la-la-la.

Lydia, oh Lydia, that encyclo-pidia.
Oh Lydia The Champ of them all.
She once swept an Admiral clear off his feet.
The ships on her hips made his heart skip a beat.
And now the old boy's in command of the fleet,
for he went and married Lydia!

I said Lydia...
(He said Lydia...)
They said Lydia...
We said Lydia, la, la!

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nipples
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Post by nipples » Sat Jan 17, 2004 12:31 am

1883

PINOCCHIO: THE ADVENTURES OF A PUPPET

by Carlo Collodi

translated by M. A. Murray

I

HOW IT CAME TO PASS THAT MASTER CHERRY THE CARPENTER

FOUND A PIECE OF WOOD THAT LAUGHED AND CRIED LIKE A CHILD -

THERE was once upon a time...

"A king!" my little readers will instantly, exclaim.

No, children, you are wrong. There was once upon a time a piece of wood.

This wood was not valuable: it was only a common log like those that are burnt in winter in the stoves and fireplaces to make a cheerful blaze and warm the rooms.

I cannot say how it came about, but the fact is, that one fine day this piece of wood was lying in the shop of an old carpenter of the name of Master Antonio. He was, however, called by everybody Master Cherry, on account of the end of his nose, which was always as red and polished as a ripe cherry.

No sooner had Master Cherry set eyes on the piece of wood than his face beamed with delight; and, rubbing his hands together with satisfaction, he said softly to himself:

"This wood has come at the right moment; it will just do to make the leg of a little table."

Having said this, he immediately took a sharp ax with which to remove the bark and the rough surface. Just, however, as he was going to give the first stroke he remained with his arm suspended in the air, for he heard a very small voice saying imploringly, "Do not strike me so hard!"

Picture to yourselves the astonishment of good old Master Cherry!

He turned his terrified eyes all round the room to try and discover where the little voice could possibly have come from, but he saw nobody! He looked under the bench- nobody; he looked into a cupboard that was always shut- nobody; he looked into a basket of shavings and sawdust- nobody; he even opened the door of the shop and gave a glance into the street- and still nobody. Who, then, could it be?

"I see how it is," he said, laughing and scratching his wig; "evidently that little voice was all my imagination. Let us set to work again."

And taking up the ax he struck a tremendous blow on the piece of wood.

"Oh! oh! you have hurt me!" cried the same little voice dolefully.

This time Master Cherry was petrified. His eyes started out of his head with fright, his mouth remained open, and his tongue hung out almost to the end of his chin, like a mask on a fountain. As soon as he had recovered the use of his speech, he began to say, stuttering and trembling with fear:

"But where on earth can that little voice have come from that said 'Oh! oh!'?... Here there is certainly not a living soul. Is it possible that this piece of wood can have learnt to cry and to lament like a child? I cannot believe it. This piece of wood, here it is; a log for fuel like all the others, and thrown on the fire it would about suffice to boil a saucepan of beans.... How then? Can any one be hidden inside it? If any one is hidden inside, so much the worse for him. I will settle him at once."

So saying, he seized the poor piece of wood and commenced beating it without mercy against the walls of the room.

Then he stopped to listen if he could hear any little voice lamenting. He waited two minutes- nothing; five minutes- nothing; ten minutes- still nothing!

"I see how it is," he then said, forcing himself to laugh and pushing up his wig; "evidently the little voice that said 'Oh! Oh!' was all my imagination! Let us set to work again."

But as all the same he was in a great fright, he tried to sing to give himself a little courage.

Putting the ax aside, he took his plane, to plane and polish the bit of wood; but whilst he was running it up and down he heard the same little voice say, laughing:

"Have done! you are tickling me all over!"

This time poor Master Cherry fell down as if he had been struck by lightning. When he at last opened his eyes he found himself seated on the floor.

His face was quite changed, even the end of his nose, instead of being crimson, as it was nearly always, had become blue from fright.

(except chapter II)

III

GEPPETTO HAVING RETURNED HOME BEGINS AT ONCE TO MAKE A PUPPET,

TO WHICH HE GIVES THE NAME OF PINOCCHIO.

THE FIRST TRICKS PLAYED BY THE PUPPET -

GEPPETTO lived in a small ground-floor room that was only lighted from the staircase. The furniture could not have been simpler,- a bad chair, a poor bed, and a broken-down table. At the end of the room there was a fireplace with a lighted fire; but the fire was painted, and by the fire was a painted saucepan that was boiling cheerfully, and sending out a cloud of smoke that looked exactly like real smoke.

As soon as he reached home Geppetto took his tools and set to work to cut out and model his puppet.

"What name shall I give him?" he said to himself; "I think I will call him Pinocchio. It is a name that will bring him luck. I once knew a whole family so called. There was Pinocchio the father, Pinocchia the mother, and Pinocchi the children, and all of them did well. The richest of them was a beggar."

Having found a name for his puppet he began to work in good earnest, and he first made his hair, then his forehead, and then his eyes.

The eyes being finished, imagine his astonishment when he perceived that they moved and looked fixedly at him.

Geppetto, seeing himself stared at by those two wooden eyes, took it almost in bad part, and said in an angry voice:

"Wicked wooden eyes, why do you look at me?"

No one answered.

He then proceeded to carve the nose; but no sooner had he made it than it began to grow. And it grew, and grew, and grew, until in a few minutes it had become an immense nose that seemed as if it would never end.

Poor Geppetto tired himself out with cutting it off; but the more he cut and shortened it, the longer did that impertinent nose become!

The mouth was not even completed when it began to laugh and deride him.

"Stop laughing!" said Geppetto, provoked; but he might as well have spoken to the wall.

"Stop laughing, I say!" he roared in a threatening tone.

The mouth then ceased laughing, but put out its tongue as far as it would go.

Geppetto, not to spoil his handiwork, pretended not to see, and continued his labors. After the mouth he fashioned the chin, then the throat, then the shoulders, the stomach, the arms and the hands.

The hands were scarcely finished when Geppetto felt his wig snatched from his head. He turned round, and what did he see? He saw his yellow wig in the puppet's hand.

"Pinocchio!... Give me back my wig instantly!"

But Pinocchio, instead of returning it, put it on his own head, and was in consequence nearly smothered.

Geppetto at this insolent and derisive behavior felt sadder and more melancholy than he had ever been in his life before; and turning to Pinocchio he said to him:

"You young rascal! You are not yet completed, and you are already beginning to show want of respect to your father! That is bad, my boy, very bad!"

And he dried a tear.

The legs and the feet remained to be done.

When Geppetto had finished the feet he received a kick on the point of his nose.

"I deserve it!" he said to himself; "I should have thought of it sooner! Now it is too late!"

He then took the puppet under the arms and placed him on the floor to teach him to walk.

Pinocchio's legs were stiff and he could not move, but Geppetto led him by the hand and showed him how to put one foot before the other.

When his legs became flexible Pinocchio began to walk by himself and to run about the room; until, having gone out of the house door, he jumped into the street and escaped.

Poor Geppetto rushed after him but was not able to overtake him, for that rascal Pinocchio leapt in front of him like a hare, and knocking his wooden feet together against the pavement made as much clatter as twenty pairs of peasants' clogs.

"Stop him! stop him!" shouted Geppetto; but the people in the street, seeing a wooden puppet running like a racehorse, stood still in astonishment to look at it, and laughed, and laughed, and laughed, until it beats description.

At last, as good luck would have it, a carabineer arrived who, hearing the uproar, imagined that a colt had escaped from his master. Planting himself courageously with his legs apart in the middle of the road, he waited with the determined purpose of stopping him, and thus preventing the chance of worse disasters.

When Pinocchio, still at some distance, saw the carabineer barricading the whole street, he endeavored to take him by surprise and to pass between his legs. But he failed signally.

The carabineer without disturbing himself in the least caught him cleverly by the nose- it was an immense nose of ridiculous proportions that seemed made on purpose to be laid hold of by carabineers- and consigned him to Geppetto. Wishing to punish him, Geppetto intended to pull his ears at once. But imagine his feelings when he could not succeed in finding them. And do you know the reason? It was that, in his hurry to model him, he had forgotten to make them.

He then took him by the collar, and as he was leading him away he said to him, shaking his head threateningly:

"We will go home at once, and as soon as we arrive we will regulate our accounts, never doubt it."

At this announcement Pinocchio threw himself on the ground and would not take another step. In the meanwhile a crowd of idlers and inquisitive people began to assemble and to make a ring round them.

Some of them said one thing, some another.

"Poor puppet!" said several, "he is right not to wish to return home! Who knows how Geppetto, that bad old man, will beat him!..."

And the others added maliciously:

"Geppetto seems a good man! but with boys he is a regular tyrant! If that poor puppet is left in his hands he is quite capable of tearing him in pieces!..."

It ended in so much being said and done that the carabineer at last set Pinocchio at liberty and conducted Geppetto to prison. The poor man, not being ready with words to defend himself, cried like a calf, and as he was being led away to prison sobbed out:

"Wretched boy! And to think how I have labored to make him a well-conducted puppet! But it serves me right! I should have thought of it sooner!..."

What happened afterwards is a story that really is past all belief, but I will relate it to you in the following chapters.

(continued)

chapters II & V-XXXVI at http://www.4literature.net/Carlo_Collod ... _a_Puppet/ , or find, if you are able, the M.A. Murray translation in print.

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joel the ornery
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Post by joel the ornery » Sat Jan 17, 2004 3:29 am

Self governing (doing the right thing) is difficult. I suggest the high moral ground.... if the rains (Noah reference) begin to fall.

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Post by aforceforgood » Sat Jan 17, 2004 2:48 pm

Ah, but what is the high moral ground, there's the rub...
Be the dime you seek.

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Post by diane o'thirst » Sun Jan 18, 2004 1:57 am

girl wrote:Okay surely someone has an opinion here???? -- Total monopoly in that while the texts themselves are avail. from other online sources, the books are shrinkwrapped with cd's containing coursework that are ~only~ available through this particular bookstore.
One could find someone who got the books with the CD bundled in with them and ask them to burn one off for oneself (providing a read-writeable CD, naturally). Or if I was the person myself, I'd start burning off copies of the CD for whoever asked.

Oh, wait, are we talking about the ethics of the students, the bookstore robber barons and/or by extension the university board of regents/administrators/department heads/professor, et al, who's buying into a scheme like this?

If that were the case I'd burn the CD copies quietly and send an anonymous tip to the town newspaper, see if we could let the sunshine of a bit of public scrutiny into this particular basement...
[url=http://tinyurl.com/245sagf][img]http://tinyurl.com/2bbr28j/.gif[/img][/url][url=http://tinyurl.com/23753ws][img]http://tinyurl.com/2auqebj/.gif[/img][/url][url=http://tinyurl.com/m4y82q][img]http://tinyurl.com/l56rdn/.gif[/img][/url]

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joel the ornery
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Post by joel the ornery » Sun Jan 18, 2004 5:06 am

aforceforgood wrote:Ah, but what is the high moral ground, there's the rub...
The high moral ground allows you to sleep at night knowing you did the "right thing," walk down the street or in a store without wondering if someone is following you...

The high moral ground may not be as easy to travel but the perils are far less than any other path.

That probably doesn't clearly answer the question, but the only person that can truly answer "what is the right thing to do" satisfactorily is the one that ask it originally.

And the rest of us are counting on you to do the the right thing...
and that is referred to as "trust."

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...Fuck it, here's a quarter....

Post by Last Real Burner » Sun Jan 18, 2004 9:27 am

Honesty is something you do when noone's watching.


"I'm from the Government and I'm here to help... "

not really,
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"Do you know what happened to the boy who got everything he wished for? - He lived happily ever after".

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herself
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Post by herself » Sun Jan 18, 2004 9:48 am

I think assuming a refund will be available to you
might be overly optimistic. Do you have something
that indicates that you paid for the second set?
Cause they might just ask for something like that.

If I really needed the money, like I did from ages
18 - 35, I'd keep the books and sell them to other
students. Since now I don't need the money (there
are benefits to aging) I'd indulge my aversion to tacky
little chores like standing in line at the P.O. or negotiating
sales details with craigslist readers, and do what took the
least resistance: post the availability of the books for free
online somewhere. Then I could lie back on my chaise
longue doing the important things that I do while someone
else makes the effort to come to me and take away the
unwanted duplicates.

I guess I think it's okay to do what you want with the
books-- because the mistake represents extra hassle
for you, whether you ship them back, sell them, whatever,
it's just extra hassle in your life, and you should not have
to accept extra hassle foisted on you by this company.
Sending them back to the company would be a hassle,
and the mistake wasn't your fault, so do what you want.

Down with hassle.

hh

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Post by Kona » Sun Jan 18, 2004 10:15 am

Here's my 2 cents-

Call the company and ask them what they'd like you to do with the double shipment. Since they would have to pay the cost of the return shipping, they may not find it worth their while to take them back. Unless the items sent have intinsic value (like gold) it is often cheaper for the vendor to write off the duplicate shipment.

Kona

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Post by herself » Sun Jan 18, 2004 10:19 am

> Call the company and ask them what they'd like you to do with the double shipment.

Do you have any idea how much hassle your desultory
instruction represents? "Call the company" ?!!! What a
nightmare. I'm sorry, that's asking too much of the
consumer.

Stop Hassle Dead

hh

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Post by Rob the Wop » Sun Jan 18, 2004 5:26 pm

herself wrote:> Call the company and ask them what they'd like you to do with the double shipment.

Do you have any idea how much hassle your desultory
instruction represents? "Call the company" ?!!! What a
nightmare. I'm sorry, that's asking too much of the
consumer.

Stop Hassle Dead

hh
Amen. I ordered a hard case for a Palm Pilot (yah I know, but it's only real purpose was to alert me to meetings while I was stuck in the lab). They sent the wrong one. So I called the company. They sent me the right one. I asked them to send me a shipper to send back the wrong one. I recieved another of the correct hardcase plus some wierd purse like thing to boot. I called again to tell them I now had 3 things of thier's that I didn't want, and would they please send me a shipper to send them back. They said that maybe I would have better luck calling another number, which I did. They said they would send me a shipper label also. Three weeks passed and I called them again, got passed to two other numbers, and then finally was told they messed up somewhere and I would get a shipper label.

About six months after that, I took the same said three items out on a shoot and put many holes in them. I'm hoping that they send the shipper still- only to later say, "You're kidding. They must have been damaged in transit- you know how those postal workers are..."

Needless to say, I know inherently that the purchasing, shipping, and RMA departments of a company tend to have loose, if any, relations to each other.

I'm pretty much gonna shoot anything extra that anyone sends me from now on.
[b]The other, other white meat.[/b]

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Post by Kona » Sun Jan 18, 2004 9:07 pm

and your ethical dilema (the point of this thread) is solved. I only hope that the author of the tread has a resolution as unequivocal as yours!

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