israel, judaism, jews and zionism

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israel, judaism, jews and zionism

Post by can't sit still » Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:46 pm

israel is important enough to have it's own thread. Jews, Judaism and Zionism can easily be included in the same thread. I hope that I won't post any inaccuracies. I just don't have a lot of extra time to nurture a new thread. Please post corrections.
Evidently, the problems started after the last ice-age receded. The African tribes were pushed north by the expanding Sahara. Reportedly, Moses led his tribes to the land of Canaan.... the land of milk and honey. Not surprisingly, this wonderful land was already occupied. Historians claim that the hebrew tribes had to do a lot of killing to find a niche.

Fast-forward to the Ottoman Empire and the land of Palestine. As I recall from reading, the Arabs owned about 80--90% of the land. The jews represented about 17% of the population. The Ottoman empire as administered by the Turks was dismantled after WWII. The British took on the problem of administering Palestine under the British mandate. They planned a continuation of the earlier situation of multi-theistic and multi-culturism. The land had previously been reasonably peaceful. [by middle eastern standards]

Because of the Temple and other very significant sites in Palestine, many jews felt that jews and judaism should return to the land of it's roots. There are claims that much of the persecution of jews in Europe and Russia was instigated by the jewish leadership. Reportedly , this was done because nobody want to go live in a desert wilderness.

Many of the peoples in Palestine, Jordan and Egypt were Semites decades ago. The huge influx of Poles, Russians, etc, etc has made Semites a small minority in jewish israel today. This big influx of immigrants tended to coalesce and nurture a desire for a jewish state. Terror gangs and parties were formed to drive out both the arabs and the British. Irgun, Stern, Nehi and Likud were very active at blowing up buses and market places.
The Russians seemed to be at the forefront of the terror. One Russian immigrant, Begin was particularly bloodthirsty. There isn't any doubt about his reign of terror. He documented it very well. You can find a short account ;
http://www.counterpunch.org/martin05132004.html
The jewish/russian terrorists stacked up corpses for the media. Their crowning achievement was when they blew up the King David hotel and killed 97 members of the British command. The British left declaring that the land was ungovernable.

The great israeli patriot and freedom fighter, David Ben-Gurion was very clear when he said " we have stolen their land. god gave it to us but, he isn't their god so why should they care" He later became prime minister. Evidently, he personified the israeli mindset.

The israelis have always wanted a "greater israel' Recent studies have shown that this will never happen. The arab birthrate is far higher than the israeli birthrate. This explains some of the recent actions in Gaza. They were purposely killing kids.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 52294.html

There seems to be a lot of resentment against the children. Well, the arabs have lots of kids and the israelis don't,,,, so the arabs target the kids.
Some say that israel has highjacked judaism and Zionism has highjacked israel. Many people point to the "Protocols of Zion" as being a guide to world rule.
The actions in Gaza are just a matter of killing a competing population. It's a sad situation.
I'll let others fill in the blanks.
Dan
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Post by Dr. Pyro » Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:16 pm

In my opinion, it's all the fault of the useless goyim.

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Post by Elderberry » Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:19 pm

What is Zionism?

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Post by Eric » Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:41 pm

wow.
I mean, wow.
Dan- your post is so riddled with inaccuracies and so many generalizations as to be a useless history of the region.
I mean, start with your first premise-
Jews, Judaism and Zionism can easily be included in the same thread.
These are not even remotely the same thing- "Jews" are a defined people (though the definition varies a lot depending on who's doing the defining- even in Israel there is disagreement on who is a Jew. Under Hitler I'm a Jew because I have a Jewish mother, under Stalin I'm not a Jew because I don't have a Jewish father, and under Orthodox rabbis I'm not a Jew because my Bar-Mitzvah was in a Reform Temple), Judaism is a religion just slightly more defined than "Christianity"- Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Lutheran, Mormon, Holy Rollers etc, and Zionism is a political philosophy.

It's like you said that Americans, Christianity and Republicans can easily be included in the same thread, and pretend that you're actually covering the diversity of beliefs that in reality occur under any of those three headings.

The rest of your post was so baseless and wrong that I can't even begin to address the issues you raise in a post that doesn't take up 3 or 4 pages on its own- may I suggest you read "The Middle East, a brief history of the last 2000 years" by Bernard Lewis, who is a world renowned scholar of Middle Eastern & Islamic history to get a better understanding of the region.

As for
There are claims that much of the persecution of jews in Europe and Russia was instigated by the jewish leadership. Reportedly , this was done because nobody want to go live in a desert wilderness.
This is just.... you've got to be kidding me.

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Post by DVD Burner » Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:37 pm

:shock: I can't believe it.

i just can't believe it.
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Post by DVD Burner » Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:41 pm

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Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:43 pm

jkisha wrote:What is Zionism?

JK
I think it has to do with Mormonism or some park in Utah

LOLOTLCITP

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Post by DVD Burner » Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:46 pm

All religions are for suckers that have a hard time dealing with reality and it causes all kind of grief out of ignorance.
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Post by Elderberry » Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:17 pm

Apollonaris Zeus wrote:
jkisha wrote:What is Zionism?

JK
I think it has to do with Mormonism or some park in Utah

LOLOTLCITP
that's funny.

eric's post had the answer I was looking for.

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Post by Simon of the Playa » Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:58 am

Jews, Schmews.


Cant we Talk about our Lord and Master, SATAN, SATAN, SATAN!




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Post by can't sit still » Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:05 am

Eric, thanks for your comments. Since it's my thread, i can include anything that I want. I seriously doubt that the E-Playans would have enough interest in the whole subject for four threads. I'm hoping that you will correct a few of the inaccuracies.
Obviously, you're more than welcome to start 4 threads of your own to educate us.
It's true that there are generalizations. That's why I said "fast forward" I'm not qualified or disposed to write the history of a people. I won't split hairs with you. You can do all the denials that you want. It doesn't really matter if an IDF soldier is Khazar or Semitic or Pole or whatever. Dead is dead when he shoots civilians.
What are your comments on groups like Stern and Irgun. What excuse is there for people who stack up bodies of men, women and children for the media photo-ops? What about Ben-Gurion's statement that the land is stolen? Sharon said on radio that israel controls the US??? All of this is documented in their own hands.
Your post is lacking in specifics.

DVD, I was counting on you to use this thread as a platform to present relevant facts. Why don't you start by showing the series of old and new maps of ownership. While vid clips are informative, they take a lot of bandwidth. I don't actually know if this is a problem or not.
E-Playans can read. There are endless accounts of the early destruction of Palestinian towns. How about links? How about a good writeup on Zionism with links. How about some good quotes from the "British mandate"? I'm working 7 days. I just can't fit it all in.

If you're trying to convince people of the wrongness of israeli actions, present specifics. Treat it like a debate. Opposing views can present specifics and rebuttals. Don't be distracted by irrelevant info. The truth can stand on it's own.
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Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:14 am

Simon of the Playa wrote:Jews, Schmews.


Cant we Talk about our Lord and Master, SATAN, SATAN, SATAN!




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You can tell he's satan (or as I like to call him, "seitan" now that's hell)
because his wings are NAKED- no feathers!

and he's in roman military garb!

I have a use for JEWS and what Obama should do with them at least here in this country. We need a

Secretary of Comedy!

or as he will be called on the streets, "The Schtick Dick!"

the quality of jewish comedians has come to new lows. Obviously we can let this happen to the world.

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Post by DVD Burner » Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:46 pm

can't sit still wrote:
DVD, I was counting on you to use this thread as a platform to present relevant facts. Why don't you start by showing the series of old and new maps of ownership. While vid clips are informative, they take a lot of bandwidth. I don't actually know if this is a problem or not.
E-Playans can read. There are endless accounts of the early destruction of Palestinian towns. How about links? How about a good writeup on Zionism with links. How about some good quotes from the "British mandate"? I'm working 7 days. I just can't fit it all in.

If you're trying to convince people of the wrongness of israeli actions, present specifics. Treat it like a debate. Opposing views can present specifics and rebuttals. Don't be distracted by irrelevant info. The truth can stand on it's own.
Dan

Well I gotta give it to ya.

At least you are trying to make an attempt to come to an understanding.

As far as people and bandwidth goes, people with Mac se, 8088, 386. 486, 200 baud and or 14.44k modems, I am sorry. It is more than time to get into the 21st century. One can even dumpster dive a decent PC these days.. There just is no excuse.
The vid clips I post have PhD.'s and scholars being interviewed on the topics at hand that can explain better than any of us what the actual situation on the ground in the area is.
So no, I cant compromise there. It would be an injustice.
Thanks CSS for not being an ass like those others that think they are actually contributing any intelligence to the subject by posting what they think is fact without posting fact to back their claims. Also thank you for being intelligent enough to admit on areas you may not be perfect in.
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Post by Isotopia » Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:50 pm

israel, judaism, jews and zionism

Boy, I know where this thread is eventually going to wind up and it is never pretty.

Let me be the first to say it before anyone else because.... you know... someone is eventually gonna call someone else here a....

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Post by Isotopia » Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:50 pm

....nazi.

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Post by DVD Burner » Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:53 pm

Shit, I'm actually agreeing with Isotopia.
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Post by DVD Burner » Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:10 pm

And for those that say they cant afford DSL, here:
There just isn't any excuse.
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Post by Elderberry » Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:11 pm

Isotopia wrote:....nazi.
nazi, I thought you were going to say 'fucking snowman!' LOL

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Post by Eric » Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:15 pm

Jeez kids, you should know that I never dip that low in a serious discussion. Besides, Dan has admitted to not knowing more than one side to what he's talking about:
I'm not qualified or disposed to write the history of a people.
Just a couple more notes and I'll bow out, since I don't have the specific cites at hand you can of course dismiss them and go back to the anti-Israeli websites for comfort.

Yes, the Israeli state was founded on stolen land. They took it from the British, who took it from the Ottomans, who took it from the Egyptian Mamluks who had taken it from the Baghdad Caliphate who had taken it from the Umayyad Caliphate who had conquered it from the Byzantine/Romans who had overthrown the ....... well, lets just say that it's belonged and been taken from a lot of people over history. Every country on earth has been founded on the bones of someone who was there already.

I'm not going to go into your other issues, read some general history of the region that aren't just anti-Israel blogs and get a fuller picture. I've already suggested a great general history, but I guess that doesn't count as enough of a "fact" for what I'm saying.

Oh, as a totally un-needed aside: I'm a very strong supporter of an independent state for the Palestinians, like the one they where given under the UN Mandate that founded Israel- you know, the one the Jordanians, Egyptians, Lebanese & Syrians overran in their rush to destroy Israel in 1948 but never gave back to the Palestinian people.

Gosh I wish I had cites. I must be making this up.
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Post by DVD Burner » Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:20 pm

Eric wrote:Jeez kids, you should know that I never dip that low in a serious discussion. Besides, Dan has admitted to not knowing more than one side to what he's talking about:
I'm not qualified or disposed to write the history of a people.
Just a couple more notes and I'll bow out, since I don't have the specific cites at hand you can of course dismiss them and go back to the anti-Israeli websites for comfort.

Yes, the Israeli state was founded on stolen land. They took it from the British, who took it from the Ottomans, who took it from the Egyptian Mamluks who had taken it from the Baghdad Caliphate who had taken it from the Umayyad Caliphate who had conquered it from the Byzantine/Romans who had overthrown the ....... well, lets just say that it's belonged and been taken from a lot of people over history. Every country on earth has been founded on the bones of someone who was there already.

I'm not going to go into your other issues, read some general history of the region that aren't just anti-Israel blogs and get a fuller picture. I've already suggested a great general history, but I guess that doesn't count as enough of a "fact" for what I'm saying.

Oh, as a totally un-needed aside: I'm a very strong supporter of an independent state for the Palestinians, like the one they where given under the UN Mandate that founded Israel- you know, the one the Jordanians, Egyptians, Lebanese & Syrians overran in their rush to destroy Israel in 1948 but never gave back to the Palestinian people.

Gosh I wish I had cites. I must be making this up.


RTFO Eric!


Now here is someone that knows what they are talking about.
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Post by Elderberry » Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:27 pm

Eric wrote:Jeez kids, you should know that I never dip that low in a serious discussion. Besides, Dan has admitted to not knowing more than one side to what he's talking about:
I'm not qualified or disposed to write the history of a people.
Just a couple more notes and I'll bow out, since I don't have the specific cites at hand you can of course dismiss them and go back to the anti-Israeli websites for comfort.

Yes, the Israeli state was founded on stolen land. They took it from the British, who took it from the Ottomans, who took it from the Egyptian Mamluks who had taken it from the Baghdad Caliphate who had taken it from the Umayyad Caliphate who had conquered it from the Byzantine/Romans who had overthrown the ....... well, lets just say that it's belonged and been taken from a lot of people over history. Every country on earth has been founded on the bones of someone who was there already.

I'm not going to go into your other issues, read some general history of the region that aren't just anti-Israel blogs and get a fuller picture. I've already suggested a great general history, but I guess that doesn't count as enough of a "fact" for what I'm saying.

Oh, as a totally un-needed aside: I'm a very strong supporter of an independent state for the Palestinians, like the one they where given under the UN Mandate that founded Israel- you know, the one the Jordanians, Egyptians, Lebanese & Syrians overran in their rush to destroy Israel in 1948 but never gave back to the Palestinian people.

Gosh I wish I had cites. I must be making this up.
Informative post. I'll take the info without cites.

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Post by can't sit still » Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:14 pm

Eric said " Besides, Dan has admitted to not knowing more than one side to what he's talking about: " I've got news for you,,, Dan didn't say or imply anything of the sort. I've read everything from "The Source" to general history to the "British Mandate" There is nothing one sided to my knowledge of the area. I also traveled around the area by road to get more accurate impressions.
The important issue that I'm talking about is current history,,, not ancient.
The British, just like the Turks didn't live in Palestine,,, they just controlled it. Technically, you could say that they stole it. That's not particularly important. to the inhabitants as long as they weren't killed. But at least we agree that the land was stolen.
Also, there is no argument that the early israeli freedom fighters attacked civilians. They admitted as much. Just like the killing of the red Indian, the killers were quite pleased with themselves.
"patriots in Cork are traitors in kent" It's nothing new. I'm sure that there are lots of areas where we agree.
If you look at the casualty figures for Gaza, it's obvious that the IDF was targeting women and children. OK, nothing new. The genesis of the IDF was the unification of the various terror gangs that kicked out the British. You know,,, freedom fighters. The point of view is all important.

Milosevich was tried for ethnic cleansing. Amnesty International says that israel is guilty of war crimes. Do you think that israeli leaders should be tried just as Milosevich was?
israel has ignored almost all the resolutions from the UN. Do you think that israel deserves a place in the roster of civilized nations.
Do you believe that israel should be allowed to conduct an ongoing terror campaign against unarmed civilians? You don't need to cite anything. Just tell me if you approve of an ongoing terror campaign against a civilian population.
I don't post things because I believe that they are the absolute truth. I post them because I believe that they should be considered.

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Post by DVD Burner » Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:19 pm

Well put CSS.

Is there a possibility you can elaborate your travels to the area?
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Post by ygmir » Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:28 pm

well,
as an uninformed in specifics, but, know how I feel, novice, I'll chime in......

I'm against the premise under which israel got it's land.
I think the palestinians got screwed.
I don't like the U.N.
I don't like terrorism, by any side, it just hurts innocents.........
I think the empire building or whatever was going on in the whole region, especially after WWII by the french and british screwed a lot of what was there, up.
I think the peoples of the region like to fight, or, at least will do it, whether we're there or not.
I'd be for not supporting anyone there, no money or anything, and, let the cards fall where they may........
But, keep other nations from interfering, too.
Let em solve their own problems.......

and, see if we can make friends with the winners.....and, if not, ignore them.........

well,
these opinions, and, a buck, will get you a cup of coffee........
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Post by can't sit still » Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:50 pm

I could PM but, it might be of interest to others or relevant to the thread. In '85, I boarded a camping bus in Earls Court, London SW6 that was bound for Kathmandu. We went to Istanbul, aka Constantinople, aka Byzantium. From there, we went to Syria and Jordan. In Syria, I got down on my hands and knees to inspect the soil. It was great. I couldn't believe that they didn't do more farming.
From Jordan, we walked across the Alenby bridge into israel and taxied to jerusalem. We made sure not to stamp the passports to avoid problems in other countries. I couldn't get a visa for Iran because of th Iranian hostage crisis. I separated from the group and stayed in Jerusalem for a week and a half. I was in a hostel near the Jaffa gate. I left Jerusalem to bus to Cairo for a few days. While I was in Amman, the Achille lauro was hijacked. There were some problems in Cairo but, it didn't affect me.
I joined a group in Cairo and went by train to Aswan. It was absolutely fascinating. After a few days in Aswan, we boarded a fellucca to sail to Karnac and other points downstream. The trip in the fellucca was like having your head in heaven and your feet in hell. We also rode donkeys up to the valley of the kings and the tomb of queen Hatshetuput [never could spell that one]
I walked every day, all day, except on the felucca. I wanted to see what the land and the people were like. Though the trip was years ago, much of what I saw was timeless. The souks and the walled cities and the olive groves have been the same for centuries. I used tres mal French in the old French colonies and very few words of arabic that I had learned.
Ive spent, cumulatively a dozen years in other countries and I get a feel for a place rapidly. The old capitals like Amman, Cairo, Damascus and Jerusalem were the high points. Istanbul is in a class by itself.
I bought Arab garb in Damascus and looked as ridiculous as Peter Otoole. The trip was great.
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Post by DVD Burner » Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:01 pm

I guess you didn't get a chance to see Ramullah or see Gaza at that time?

Just curious what it was like then.
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Post by Eric » Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:02 pm

*sigh*
I'm going to regret this, and this is my last post on this thread, but let me explain my issues with what CSS is posting. He has been wanting to talk about what Israel has done wrong, but hasn't once mentioned that there are two sides to every issue.

Before the founding of Israel, many Jews moved there, bought land- didn't steal it- and founded kibbutzim that made the desert bloom. They were regularly attacked by Palestinian Arabs who didn't want them there- but I don't see CSS asking about that. What about Palestinian suicide bombs on Israeli buses, tractors driven into crowds or, most pertinent to Gaza, Hamas using it as a base to launch unguided missiles into Israeli cities. Missiles that by their very nature target civilians.

Both sides are guilty of horrible crimes against each other, but I can guarantee you that until they can look for common ground with each other, it will only get worse. Looking for the crimes of one side while ignoring the crimes of the other solves no problems, and doesn't deal with a single underlying issue.

If attacking the legitimacy of the existence of Israel makes you happy, have at it. It's not for you to decide. If you actually care enough about the civilians involved- on both sides- than look for ways to heal the wounds of the past, not carry them into the future. One way leads to Kosovo, Bosnia, Armenia, Kashmir, Sudan, Somalia; the other leads into the great unknown, but it can't be worse than that.

Out of the thread.
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Post by can't sit still » Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:04 pm

I visited a Palestinian refugee camp but, I can't recall the name. The trip continued on to Kathmandu and then on around the world. I just can't recall all the places.
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Post by DVD Burner » Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:27 pm

Eric wrote:*sigh*
I'm going to regret this, and this is my last post on this thread, but let me explain my issues with what CSS is posting. He has been wanting to talk about what Israel has done wrong, but hasn't once mentioned that there are two sides to every issue.

Before the founding of Israel, many Jews moved there, bought land- didn't steal it- and founded kibbutzim that made the desert bloom. They were regularly attacked by Palestinian Arabs who didn't want them there- but I don't see CSS asking about that. What about Palestinian suicide bombs on Israeli buses, tractors driven into crowds or, most pertinent to Gaza, Hamas using it as a base to launch unguided missiles into Israeli cities. Missiles that by their very nature target civilians.

Both sides are guilty of horrible crimes against each other, but I can guarantee you that until they can look for common ground with each other, it will only get worse. Looking for the crimes of one side while ignoring the crimes of the other solves no problems, and doesn't deal with a single underlying issue.

If attacking the legitimacy of the existence of Israel makes you happy, have at it. It's not for you to decide. If you actually care enough about the civilians involved- on both sides- than look for ways to heal the wounds of the past, not carry them into the future. One way leads to Kosovo, Bosnia, Armenia, Kashmir, Sudan, Somalia; the other leads into the great unknown, but it can't be worse than that.

Out of the thread.

I guess it is a good thing you wont post in this thread after that post.

Some of your "facts" are incorrect and I have links to back my claims.
Such as your claims about Hamas. Every time Hamas has launched rockets into Israel, it was in retaliation to what Israel was doing such as violating the truce in November:


[youtube][/youtube]

[youtube][/youtube]

Even Ron Paul knows the story of Hamas

[youtube][/youtube]


but I find it interesting you bring up kibbutzim.
For those that are not familiar with what kibbutzim is, check the link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutz

You would figure those that practice kibbutzim would understand the plight of Palestinians with what Israel is doing to them today and what Jews went through back in the day that had kibbutzim come about.
In fact, they should be ashamed of what they are doing since kibbutzim bloomed out of the same circumstances the Jews were in.

would have like to hear your views on this but as you said, it's your last post in this thread.

Oh well.
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Post by Elderberry » Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:06 pm

Eric wrote:*sigh*
I'm going to regret this, and this is my last post on this thread, but let me explain my issues with what CSS is posting. He has been wanting to talk about what Israel has done wrong, but hasn't once mentioned that there are two sides to every issue.

Before the founding of Israel, many Jews moved there, bought land- didn't steal it- and founded kibbutzim that made the desert bloom. They were regularly attacked by Palestinian Arabs who didn't want them there- but I don't see CSS asking about that. What about Palestinian suicide bombs on Israeli buses, tractors driven into crowds or, most pertinent to Gaza, Hamas using it as a base to launch unguided missiles into Israeli cities. Missiles that by their very nature target civilians.

Both sides are guilty of horrible crimes against each other, but I can guarantee you that until they can look for common ground with each other, it will only get worse. Looking for the crimes of one side while ignoring the crimes of the other solves no problems, and doesn't deal with a single underlying issue.

If attacking the legitimacy of the existence of Israel makes you happy, have at it. It's not for you to decide. If you actually care enough about the civilians involved- on both sides- than look for ways to heal the wounds of the past, not carry them into the future. One way leads to Kosovo, Bosnia, Armenia, Kashmir, Sudan, Somalia; the other leads into the great unknown, but it can't be worse than that.

Out of the thread.
Another great post.

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