The Health Care Bill

All things outside of Burning Man.
Post Reply
can't sit still
Posts: 4645
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:21 pm
Location: SoCal

The Health Care Bill

Post by can't sit still » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:49 am

Here's a message from a congressman;


Quote of the Week: “It must be said, that like the breaking of a great dam, the American descent into Marxism is happening with breath taking speed........... The final collapse has come with the election of Barack Obama. His speed in the past three months has been truly impressive. His spending and money printing has been record setting, not just in America's short history but in the world. If this keeps up for more than another year, and there is no sign that it will not, America at best will resemble the Weimar Republic and at worst Zimbabwe.â€
I don't post things because I believe that they are the absolute truth. I post them because I believe that they should be considered.

User avatar
Apollonaris Zeus
Posts: 3716
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 11:17 am

Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:15 am

don't tell me does Mr cambell campaign contributors contain election money from the Medical Industry?

Why yes he does! Edwards Lifesciences So why would they be concerned with the health bill. Lower profits from end life procedures is why. The biggest cost of todays health costs and one of the most over priced procedures of which only adds a few years to a persons life. They have the most to lose under obama's plan

who else, why Pfizer Inc and the American Hospital Association of who will lose money.

No wonder why he would write a distorted view on the health Bill.

Oh did I mention he's a republican?

User avatar
Apollonaris Zeus
Posts: 3716
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 11:17 am

Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:16 am

don't tell me does Mr cambell campaign contributors contain election money from the Medical Industry?

Why yes he does! Edwards Lifesciences So why would they be concerned with the health bill. Lower profits from end life procedures is why. The biggest cost of todays health costs and one of the most over priced procedures of which only adds a few years to a persons life. They have the most to lose under obama's plan

who else, why Pfizer Inc and the American Hospital Association of who will lose money.

Here is a report of Pfizer and American Hospital Ass from Opensecrets.org

"Pfizer Inc
Pfizer is one of the biggest players in what is widely considered the most influential industry in Washington: pharmaceutical manufacturers. As one of the five largest pharmaceutical companies in the world, Pfizer produces several of the best-selling prescription drugs on the market, including Viagra, the celebrated treatment for impotence. Year after year, Pfizer and other drug makers have successfully fought efforts in Congress to attach a prescription drug benefit to Medicare. The industry also opposes efforts to make it easier for generic drugs to enter the market. At the same time, Pfizer has continued to grow. The company swallowed up rival Warner-Lambert in 2000, and in 2002 announced it would purchase Pharmacia, another big drug manufacturerz'

"American Hospital Assn
The American Hospital Association represents 37,000 individual members at more than 5,000 hospitals and health care systems. With one-third of the nation’s hospitals in the red, the association’s primary focus is lobbying against any reductions in Medicare payments. The association also supports tort reform that would limit medical malpractice lawsuits, and is pressing Congress for job programs to train nurses."

What about more grants to fund education of doctors- more doctors more competition in health care costs.

No wonder why he would write a distorted view on the health Bill.

Oh did I mention he's a republican?

User avatar
StarShineScars
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:51 pm
Location: Tucson

Post by StarShineScars » Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:07 am

I don't understand why we wouldn't want to embrace a more universal health care system. You know people in other countries pay more taxes because they receive more services from their governments... and their governments actually use their money for things other than the war machine. America is a greedy country full of greedy people. No one wants to pay more for everyone to have health care.

"Universal health care is implemented in all but one of the wealthy, industrialized countries, with the one exception being the United States.[1] It is also provided in many developing countries and is the trend worldwide." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_care

For some reason most Americans like to think that we are a progressive nation, but we are far behind many others in so many respects. I have a chronic illness that makes it impossible for me to receive private insurance and there are so many others in similar situations. People say that it's going to bankrupt our country. Think it's actually all the money we spend on war that has done that. This is from 2004 but I think it gets the point across: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... ending.htm The WW budget was $1100 billion with the US's part of that being about $623 billion.

I would love to see something good coming from this country like a universal health care program, or something similar. No one would have to worry about their taxes going up if the US would stop trying to police the world... Republicans don't throw in that. As I said before, so many people here are only concerned about their pocket books and could care less about the rest of people in the world.
If God had intended us to walk, he wouldn't have invented roller-skates. -Willy Wonka

Barbie
Posts: 684
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:03 pm
Location: SURF CAPITAL OF THE WORLD HALEIWA HI

Post by Barbie » Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:15 pm

But can I go to the Doctor? - Never in my life have I had Health Care except for when I was working full time for the airlines. For years I danced and Now I'm the working poor, I can't afford to go tho the Doctor... WHAt about US - YA Know at this point I don't care if its socialized it would just be nice to be able to go to the Doctor with out having to give up eating for a week or maybe even two OR Gawd forbid my once a year treck Home.

We are suppose to Be America and America should have Free Education & Free Healthcare- And If some of the Rich have to give a little More than So Be It. They spend it else where (like on Strippers LOL ) anyway- why not have them help the less fortunate.

I just Don't get why places like Canada & The Netherlands & Cuba can figure out how to have healthcare for their people and America can't figure It Out!?? ANd don't get me started about the little kids that go without in our country when we ship food else where.

TIme to start caring about our people here in America- and if your here working your ass off doing the work that other (Americans) people won't do - Then your HERE already so that means you can stay. Tell them Barbie said So. Welcome to the United States Of America!
If I were to wish ANYTHING I'd wish I were ME!!

User avatar
mojo
Posts: 1609
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:47 am
Location: Santa Barbara, CA

Post by mojo » Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:15 pm

The one thing I fear in life is getting sick. If my house burns down, the insurance will replace it. But if I suffer a long illness, I will eventually lose everything, even though I work hard, am adequately paid, and have health insurance.

Most of the bankruptcy filings in this country are the result of medical bills. I have had elderly clients that divorced in order for the one who was ill to be covered under medical insurance without sacrificing their home.
Cum catapulte proscripte erunt tum soli proscripti catapultus haebunt.

User avatar
Apollonaris Zeus
Posts: 3716
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 11:17 am

Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:05 pm

mexico should have Uni Health coverage.

then we can illegally immigrate there!



You know I never her foreigners complain about their national health care plans.

I Only hear the complains from American Republicans!

can't sit still
Posts: 4645
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:21 pm
Location: SoCal

Post by can't sit still » Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:43 pm

Barbie, not far from you in Guam, the US air force crashed a $ 2 billion plane because 1 sensor had condensation. The new Raptor fighter jets are about $ 112 million each. In the mind of the corporatocracy, investing in humans is a waste. They invest in un-needed military hardware because they make a huge profit. They see no profit in quality-of-life investments for people.
Un-tempered capitalism is a crime against humanity. In a fine copy of the British tradition of "pursuit of empire" , there is a lot of human wastage on the way. The empire is broke and is going to waste a lot more people trying to avoid the final collapse.
I don't post things because I believe that they are the absolute truth. I post them because I believe that they should be considered.

dvd-r
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:15 pm

Post by dvd-r » Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:56 pm

can't sit still wrote:Barbie, not far from you in Guam, the US air force crashed a $ 2 billion plane because 1 sensor had condensation. The new Raptor fighter jets are about $ 112 million each. In the mind of the corporatocracy, investing in humans is a waste. They invest in un-needed military hardware because they make a huge profit. They see no profit in quality-of-life investments for people.
Un-tempered capitalism is a crime against humanity. In a fine copy of the British tradition of "pursuit of empire" , there is a lot of human wastage on the way. The empire is broke and is going to waste a lot more people trying to avoid the final collapse.
Guam is 4000 miles from Hawaii. Also, you sound like you are aware of how our govt works and I wonder if your knowledge is first hand.

Humm, you suggestion that "People" incorporate and go public, is not a bad one. what might people.. be worth on the stock market.

Who is tempered capitalism a crime to? Can humanity sue? are we all going to die?

what is your point, the discussion is about our country providing health care to all its citizens. Is that a good or bad thing.
why

can't sit still
Posts: 4645
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:21 pm
Location: SoCal

Post by can't sit still » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:20 pm

Yes dvd-r, i know that the thread is about health care. I was pointing out the enormous cost of military hardware to show that the bucks are going into war materials,,,, not to people.
I don't believe that I suggested that people incorporate :?:
Tempered capitalism isn't a crime because it is in balance. And, yes, we are all going to die. I suspect that humanity would not be able to sue the illuminaughty.
My point is that we don't spend money to keep people alive because there is more profit in killing them [ if they have oil] :evil: The age-old argument was that politicians promised that we could have both "guns and butter" We can't. GOV spends 36 % of the GDP, with only a tiny amount going to health care.
There's no chance of providing health care unless most of the military expenditures are eliminated.
I don't post things because I believe that they are the absolute truth. I post them because I believe that they should be considered.

Barbie
Posts: 684
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:03 pm
Location: SURF CAPITAL OF THE WORLD HALEIWA HI

Post by Barbie » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:51 pm

Yep And We all know were not gonna stop fighting - playing World Police any time soon. So our children go hungry and our elderly have to choose between eating and their Meds and People like Me pray everyday that they don't get sick. 'cause I'm one check away from being on the streets.


I live on a Military Base (people don't think of Hawaii as a Military Base - BUT WE ARE!! ) I can't believe that we give the keys of 2 million dollar planes to kids! Yes Most of the people in the military are KIDS under 30!

I know- if their old enough to fight they are not kids BUT my GAWd most of the time these kids parents wouldn't even give them the keys to the family car...
If I were to wish ANYTHING I'd wish I were ME!!

Barbie
Posts: 684
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:03 pm
Location: SURF CAPITAL OF THE WORLD HALEIWA HI

Post by Barbie » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:17 pm

Billion- I mean 2 billion dollar plane
If I were to wish ANYTHING I'd wish I were ME!!

can't sit still
Posts: 4645
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:21 pm
Location: SoCal

Post by can't sit still » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:06 pm

Barbie, the B-2 bomber had condensation in 1 sensor. Rather than drying the sensor, the techs recalibrated the flight computer. When the plane took off, the sensor cleared out,,,, the computer compensated for the new readings and,,,, crashed the plane.
The $2 billion could have been used for many years of stem-cell research but, no, it is far more important to kill people for their oil. Of course, that ignores the fact that you could buy a hell of a lot of oil for $ 2 B

Current stem-cell research has progressed to the point that "they" can now regrow a diseased heart in the body. Soon, they will be able to regrow just about any organ. Money is not spent on stem-cell research because Big Pharma does not want cures,,, only lifelong maintenance on very expensive drugs.

CODEX alimentarius will be implemented here at the end of the year. This will severely restrict access to supplements and natural cures.
http://www.naturalnews.com/026663_CODEX ... ealth.html
People are just living too long and GOV does not want them tying up capital. Just because they paid in to SS doesn't mean that they deserve to receive anything.
GOV is working overtime to kill people. If they can't kill them with high fructose corn syrup and aspartamine, then they'll have to kill them with chemtrails. Deadly prescription drugs are doing a good job too.
In a perfect capitalist world, one would live only as long as one produces,,,, then death.
I don't post things because I believe that they are the absolute truth. I post them because I believe that they should be considered.

DoriumLux
Posts: 345
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:59 pm

Post by DoriumLux » Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:32 pm

Would you want you to be treated by a doctor whose main interest is your pocketbook instead of your health and well being?

Universal Healthcare is the reform we NEED.

The US is the only wealthy, industrialized nation that does not provide universal health care to its citizens, according to the Institute of Medicine.
Currently around 50 million Americans have no health insurance at all and another 25 million are UNDERINSURED.


1 out of 4 Americans with health insurance has serious trouble paying medical premiums, co pays and deductibles. Meanwhile, insurance companies will only cover the healthiest among us, denying people with pre-existing conditions the coverage they need. Imagine trying to find health care on your own when you have been pre-diagnosed with cancer, asthma, hypertension, or diabetes. Even if you manage to find health insurance, you may be denied coverage for treating certain conditions that you have been diagnosed with in the past. You may even be rejected coverage if the insurance company can prove that you had symptoms that may have indicted that you had an underlying condition. Clearly, health insurance companies have no interest in covering those with whom they cannot profit from and reserve the right to pick and choose the treatments and procedures that they will cover.

I even found an article in the NY Times about a woman who applied for health coverage and was denied because she had a Cesarean Section to deliver one of her children. The insurance company refused to cover her unless she had been sterilized due to the likelihood that she would need the procedure again if she were to become pregnant.

There was another case last year in Glendale, CA where a teenage girl died because the families health insurance refused cover a liver transplant that the girl desperately needed. After months of fighting with insurance company, the decision was reversed and the transplant approved. However, it was too late. Within hours of the decision, Nataline, who had been in a vegetative state for several weeks, passed away.

Some insurance companies have even gone as far as refusing to cover the cost of an ambulance ride simply because they had not been contacted for pre-authorization prior to the ride. This has happened even in instances when the person was unconscious and unable to communicate.

Lack of affordable health coverage often means that people avoid going to the doctor and do not seek preventative care or treatment for symptoms before they get out of hand. This means that many people wait until it is far too late to seek help and often land in the emergency room or morgue for things that could have been treated much easier at an earlier time. According to the National Institute of Medicine, “at least 18,000 Americans will die each year simply because they're uninsured.â€

User avatar
Apollonaris Zeus
Posts: 3716
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 11:17 am

Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:53 am

Well its back to the drawing board until August

We can talk about this issue then

Obama just killed the F22 program. An obsolete cold war weapon for the better F35 to fight ground offenses.

Our heat and computerized image lock-on rockets are too far advance and cheaper to use against fighters instead of the F22.

User avatar
Apollonaris Zeus
Posts: 3716
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 11:17 am

Re: The Health Care Bill

Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:15 am

can't sit still wrote:Here's a message from a congressman;

* It makes it illegal to purchase your own private health insurance after the bill is enacted and will transition virtually everyone to government care within 5 years. (Found on page 16 of H.R. 3200)
this has been debunked. Who would not think that better coverage, like those including Dental or no limit care providers or even End of Life Procedural Care, would not be offered even as a supplemental insurance policy.

Having a Nationalized Health Care system will even bring costs down for everyone because doctors and hospitals rely on insurance to overbill. It's why some doctors today don't accept medicare patients.

We must see though the Republican Anti Health Care propaganda and in the next month we will see each statement be debunked. the delay will actually work against the republicans.

AIIZ

User avatar
Monkeypoo
Posts: 1828
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 11:03 pm
Burning Since: 2003
Camp Name: Bahama Mamas!
Location: MendocinoCounty

Post by Monkeypoo » Sat Jul 25, 2009 11:54 am

I'm all for socialized health care. I'm a hippie. I'm poor. I've paid my dues.
I've paid many taxes. Let me see a doctor when I am sick. Let the fucking rich pay for it.

*snark*

can't sit still
Posts: 4645
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:21 pm
Location: SoCal

Post by can't sit still » Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:01 pm

Here's some numbers. I don't know yet if they're bunked or debunked.

President Obama and his cronies hammer away that 47 million Americans are uninsured. It is a lie, but that does not deter them from continuing to make the claim. The latest Census report says that within the borders of the United States as of 2007 there were 45.65 million people without health insurance. But this number included 9.73 million foreigners, leaving only 35.92 Americans who were uninsured. Among the uninsured in the United States there were also 9.1 million people making more than $75,000 per year who did not choose to purchase health insurance. Therefore, we are imposing a trillion dollar solution for 28 million people who are poor and uninsured. That is $36,000 per person while imposing a huge invasive bureaucracy on the lives of the other 278 million Americans. The masses believe the lies.
I don't post things because I believe that they are the absolute truth. I post them because I believe that they should be considered.

User avatar
geekster
Posts: 4867
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:53 pm
Location: Hospice For The Terminally Breathing
Contact:

Post by geekster » Sat Jul 25, 2009 7:49 pm

[quote]“Vague promises of savings from cutting waste, enhancing prevention and wellness, installing electronic medical records and improving quality are merely ‘lipstick’ cost control, more for show and public relations than for true change."(Health Affairs Feb. 27, 2008).

Doctors take the Hippocratic Oath too seriously, “as an imperative to do everything for the patient regardless of the cost or effects on othersâ€
Pabst Blue Ribbon - The beer that made Gerlach famous.

User avatar
geekster
Posts: 4867
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:53 pm
Location: Hospice For The Terminally Breathing
Contact:

Post by geekster » Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:50 pm

Image

The care of each “undesirableâ€
Pabst Blue Ribbon - The beer that made Gerlach famous.

can't sit still
Posts: 4645
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:21 pm
Location: SoCal

Post by can't sit still » Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:16 am

The Dallas FED reports that the US had $ 100 trillion in unfunded liabilities,,,, most if it for the care of retirees. GOV has the final solution.


Peter Fleckstein (aka Fleckman) is reading it and has been posting on Twitter his findings. This is from his postings (Note: All comments are Fleckman's)

Pg 22 of the HC Bill MANDATES the Govt will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure!!

Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill - THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benes u get

Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED!!!

Pg 42 of HC Bill - The Health Choices Commissioner will choose UR HC Benefits 4 you. U have no choice!

PG 50 Section 152 in HC bill - HC will be provided 2 ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise

Pg 58HC Bill - Govt will have real-time access 2 individuals' finances & a National ID Healthcard will be issued!

Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Govt will have direct access 2 ur banks accts 4 elect. funds transfer

PG 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan 4 retirees and their families in Unions & community orgs (ACORN).

Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Govt is creating an HC Exchange 2 bring priv HC plans under Govt control.

PG 84 Sec 203 HC bill - Govt mandates ALL benefit pkgs 4 priv. HC plans in the Exchange

PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs for of Benefit Levels for Plans = The Govt will ration ur Healthcare!

PG 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill - Govt mandates linguistic approp svcs. Example - Translation 4 illegal aliens

Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The Govt will use groups i.e., ACORN & Americorps 2 sign up indiv. for Govt HC plan

PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs of Ben Levels 4 Plans. #AARP members - U Health care WILL b rationed

-PG 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill - Medicaid Eligible Indiv. will b automat.enrolled in Medicaid. No choice

pg 124 lines 24-25 HC No company can sue GOVT on price fixing. No "judicial review" against Govt Monop

pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill - Doctors/ #AMA - The Govt will tell YOU what u can make.

Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into pub opt plan. NO CHOICE

Pg 126 Lines 22-25 Employers MUST pay 4 HC 4 part time employees AND their families.
Pg 149 Lines 16-24 ANY Emplyr w payroll 400k & above who does not prov. pub opt. pays 8% tax on all payroll

pg 150 Lines 9-13 Biz w payroll btw 251k & 400k who doesnt prov. pub. opt pays 2-6% tax on all payroll

Pg 167 Lines 18-23 ANY individual who doesnt have acceptable HC accrdng 2 Govt will be taxed 2.5% of inc

Pg 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from indiv. taxes. (Americans will pay)

Pg 195 HC Bill -officers & employees of HC Admin (GOVT) will have access 2 ALL Americans finan/pers recs

PG 203 Line 14-15 HC - "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax" Yes, it says that

Pg 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill Govt will reduce physician svcs 4 Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor affected

Pg 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill - Doctors, doesnt matter what specialty u have, you'll all be paid the same

PG 253 Line 10-18 Govt sets value of Dr's time, prof judg, etc. Literally value of humans.

PG 265 Sec 1131Govt mandates & controls productivity for private HC industries

PG 268 Sec 1141 Fed Govt regulates rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs

PG 272 SEC. 1145. TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS - Cancer patients - welcome to rationing!

Page 280 Sec 1151 The Govt will penalize hospitals 4 what Govt deems preventable readmissions.

Pg 298 Lines 9-11 Drs, treat a patient during initial admiss that results in a readmiss-Govt will penalize u.

Pg 317 L 13-20 OMG!! PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Govt tells Drs. what/how much they can own.

Pg 317-318 lines 21-25,1-3 PROHIBITION on expansion- Govt is mandating hospitals cannot expand

pg 321 2-13 Hospitals have oppt to apply for exception BUT community input required. Can u say ACORN?!!

Pg335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339 - Govt mandates estab. of outcome based measures. HC the way they want. Rationing

Pg 341 Lines 3-9 Govt has authority 2 disqual Medicare Adv Plans, HMOs, etc. Forcing peeps in2 Govt plan

Pg 354 Sec 1177 - Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of Special needs ppl! WTF. My sis has down syndrome!!

Pg 379 Sec 1191 Govt creates more bureaucracy - Telehealth Advisory Cmtte. Can u say HC by phone?

PG 425 Lines 4-12 Govt mandates Advance Care Planning Consult. Think Senior Citizens end of life

Pg 425 Lines 17-19 Govt will instruct & consult regarding living wills, durable powers of atty. Mandatory!

PG 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 Govt provides apprvd list of end of life resources, guiding u in death

PG 427 Lines 15-24 Govt mandates program 4 orders 4 end of life. The Govt has a say in how ur life ends


Pg 429 Lines 1-9 An "adv. care planning consult" will b used frequently as patients health deteriorates

PG 429 Lines 10-12 "adv. care consultation" may incl an ORDER 4 end of life plans. AN ORDER from GOV

Pg 429 Lines 13-25 - The govt will specify which Doctors can write an end of life order.

PG 430 Lines 11-15 The Govt will decide what level of treatment u will have at end of life

Pg 469 - Community Based Home Medical Services=Non profit orgs. Hello, ACORN Medical Svcs here!!?

Page 472 Lines 14-17 PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORG. 1 monthly payment 2 a community-based org. Like ACORN?

PG 489 Sec 1308 The Govt will cover Marriage & Family therapy. Which means they will insert Govt in2 ur marriage

Pg 494-498 Govt will cover Mental Health Svcs including defining, creating, rationing those svcs

Here's the full Health Care bill that sits in the House.

I can see a great future in the mortuary business.
Dan
I don't post things because I believe that they are the absolute truth. I post them because I believe that they should be considered.

User avatar
geekster
Posts: 4867
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:53 pm
Location: Hospice For The Terminally Breathing
Contact:

Post by geekster » Mon Jul 27, 2009 12:14 am

http://www.nypost.com/seven/07242009/po ... 180941.htm

I have so many problems with this that it isn't funny. We want better access to health care, not GOVERNMENT health care. I don't want government deciding that we can't use ladders anymore because too many people fall off of them and that increases the taxpayer expense.

I don't want a government agency having access to all of my medical AND financial records to be "leaked" if there were any bits of disparaging information in there and I expressed an opinion some partisan government worker doesn't like.

We need to do things like ... allow the self-employed to join in group policies with other self-employed people. Maybe even have affinity groups for particular occupations with similar risks ... a group for mechanics, a group for hairdressers, a group for carpenters ...

If you are young, have insurance offered, and can afford it, you should be made to take it though with a very high deductible if you wish to keep your payments down.

Standardize reimbursements across state lines. Allow insurance companies to insure groups nationally instead of state by state as is done now.

Return insurance to "major medical" rather than "every little thing". Could you imagine how expensive car insurance would be if you could take your car into the shop because you heard a little rattle or the tire pressure was a little low or you wanted the oil checked and your insurance paid for it? Imagine if car insurance was like a permanent warranty no matter how well or how poorly you maintained it. Car insurance would quickly become unaffordable and mechanics would be booked months in advance.

Make people pay for some things out of their pocket. Got a cold? Go to Safeway and pick up some NyQuil, don't go to the doctor so he can tell you to go to Safeway and pick up some NyQuil.

Here's one example of what happens when government takes over health care. It became a nightmare.

Here's another.

Government INVENTED red tape. The last thing I want is a paperwork screwup with some government agency dealing with someone on the phone who can't be bothered right now because it is her union guaranteed break time so I will have to call back later and get to the end of the line while my kid is sick or maybe worse due to some government screwup.

EVERYTHING government touches turns to something other than gold. I do NOT want them touching my health care. I am quite satisfied with what I have. I want others who can't afford it to obtain a better deal but having the government control it isn't the way.

What is most ironic is that it seems the people want to absolve themselves of personal responsibility for their health care yet the government says it is going to make people more responsible for their health. Not going to work.
Pabst Blue Ribbon - The beer that made Gerlach famous.

User avatar
geekster
Posts: 4867
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:53 pm
Location: Hospice For The Terminally Breathing
Contact:

Post by geekster » Mon Jul 27, 2009 12:20 am

That second like to the now failing health care program in Massachusetts doesn't work. Try this one and select the The Massachusetts Mess link from Barons.
The good news was that less than 3% of state residents now lack some form of health insurance. It's the highest rate of insurance coverage among the states. and an improvement from the 2006 statistic of 6% uninsured. (The national average is 15% uninsured.)

The bad news is that universal coverage costs more money. Three years after enactment, the commonwealth of Massachusetts is unable to afford its dream of universal coverage. Last week, as part of a short-term fix, Gov. Deval Patrick ordered officials to stop automatic enrollment of low-income people in the state's Commonwealth Care public insurance plan.

The state reckons that this lack of effort will save $63 million in the new fiscal year. The governor also eliminated state-aided insurance coverage for about 30,000 legal immigrants, to save $130 million a year.

The savings are likely to be illusory, buried under a heap of cost-shifting and delayed payments. Uninsured people don't just curl up and die; they go to hospital emergency rooms, where federal law requires that they be treated, even if they don't pay. The cost falls to the hospitals.

Boston Medical Center recently complained of the inadequacy by suing the state government. The hospital maintains a large emergency room and describes itself as "the largest safety-net hospital in New England." But it's running a $38 million loss this year and it expects to lose more than $100 million next year.

The main reason for the hospital's operating losses is state price-fixing. Government payments for Boston Medical Center's charity care will cover only 64% of costs in 2010. The new universal system was supposed reduce the price of charity care because everybody would be mandated to have insurance.

That turned out not to be the case. The penalty for not having insurance is about $1,000, and the tax on employers who don't provide health insurance is $295 per worker, so many people take the cheap risk of evading the mandate to save thousands of dollars on premiums. Too many people buy coverage from Commonwealth Care when they need it and then cancel when they don't. The benefits burden insurers without generating adequate revenue.

And now the state is hoping for rescue from the federal government. It wants the feds to pay a larger share of Medicaid costs, even though Massachusetts is one of the least needy states in the country.

If mooching from the feds does not work, Massachusetts has another idea.

A state commission last week recommended that Massachusetts end fee-for-service payments for health care. The new payment system, if adopted by the legislature and the governor, would mandate flat-rate per-capita payments to networks of doctors, hospitals and other providers. The networks would receive a payment for each member each month, regardless of the services performed.

Brilliant. Instead of giving doctors and hospitals a large incentive to do everything possible for the patient, the state will give them no incentive to do everything necessary.

Behold the Massachusetts health-care miracle, supposedly a model for federal health-care reform. It's turning out to be just like the old Soviet-era joke: Capitalism is the exploitation of man by man; socialism is the opposite.
Pabst Blue Ribbon - The beer that made Gerlach famous.

User avatar
geekster
Posts: 4867
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:53 pm
Location: Hospice For The Terminally Breathing
Contact:

Post by geekster » Mon Jul 27, 2009 12:30 am

And I invite you to read Peggy Noonan's piece in the WSJ

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 32364.html

[quote]I think the plan is being slowed and may well be stopped not by ideology, or even by philosophy in a strict sense, but by simple American common sense. I suspect voters, the past few weeks, have been giving themselves an internal Q-and-A that goes something like this:

Will whatever health care bill is produced by Congress increase the deficit? “Of course.â€
Pabst Blue Ribbon - The beer that made Gerlach famous.

User avatar
ygmir
Posts: 29387
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:36 pm
Burning Since: 2017
Camp Name: qqqq
Location: nevada county

Post by ygmir » Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:18 am

I guess my cynical self asks:

When has government done anything better than private industry?
When has government done anything in the interest of the people, really?

Since when did healthcare become a "right"?
At best, it seems a "privelige".

You don't want to spend all that you've earned to get better, or stay alive?
What is your life worth, then?

Why should someone else provide your healthcare?

People talk about "greed" in healthcare......how about the litigious society in which we live, where, a mistake by a caregiver can cost millions.......and, the insurance fees necessary to protect them.........
and the lawyers involved.......

Should doctors make the wages they do? Should they abide by the Hippocratic oath they take?
How about nurses? Technicians? Orderlies?........

It's not that I'm against people having access to good care. Not at all.

But,
I think so many tend to see it as simply a matter of "government providing" for us..........
Just give it to us, let "the rich" pay for it..........

Yeah, that's always worked..........

Some smaller countries can do it, but, they are a small population, usually, and, don't have the social and militray spending we do.
(Am I wrong in thinking that social spending is the largest part of our national budget?)
They are also usually patriotic and think about the ramifications of their actions.......usually quite pragmatic as a society.......
and, don't have the "greedy, litigious, unscrupulous, politically motivated"
attitude we seem to get.

IMHO:
it'll take a ground up reformation to fix this.
Get the lawsuits out of the mix. That would lower the huge insurance premiums necessary to be in business
Maybe national pride and concern for our fellow humans, make a profit, sure, but do "what's right" (whatever that is......).
The medical industry and care providers are not without blame in this mix.............there is plenty to go around.........


Also,
Life is not necessarily fair........sometimes you're not lucky.......
Sometimes, you are.......

but, to look to government to "make it fair", IMHO, is just asking for trouble, and, opening the door (wider than now) to another attempt at "the workers paradise".
YGMIR

Unabashed Nordic
Pagan

User avatar
littleflower
Posts: 3420
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:30 pm
Location: rainforest canopy

Post by littleflower » Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:54 am

Image

doctors should be very well paid, IMO. their training is extremely expensive and difficult, for one thing ... but, more importantly, they have to make life-saving decisions every day, and often with limited information. if adequate compensation is lacking, few people will want to do the work. the risks are too great...

risk must be compensated. this is also true with corporate executives ... although not to the extent many are paid now. but a lot of them have the well-being of employees and investors in their hands. again, knock off incentive, and we will all be the poorer for it. is why socialism generally fails.

same is ture with taxes .... raise them too high, and nobody will want to do the most difficult, stressful jobs.

i'm a lazy slob, and never made much $$$, but i know people who do. we need them more than a lot of people seem to think.

User avatar
Apollonaris Zeus
Posts: 3716
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 11:17 am

Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:59 am

First of all. Who fucking reads the NY Post? The articles in the Enquirer is closer to the truth.

It would funny that you people that have insurance find out that when you need it you are

DENIGHED! and drop from your insurance plan after paying of the money you have paid into it!

Policy Holder Dropped From Health Insurance After Personal Injury
A judge ruled that Blue Shield of California was right to drop the policy of a man who sued the health insurer on claims that he was wrongly dropped after a personal injury left him with huge medical bills.

As personal injury attorneys, we understand that a person may suffer personal injury at any given time in a car accident, such as spinal cord injuries, paralysis (i.e. paraplegia or quadriplegia), whiplash and brain injuries. Any of these injuries can lead to lost wages if they force you out of work and can cause high medical bills.

Imagine how hard it might be to pay back six figures worth of medical bills when your insurance company drops you. That was the situation for Steve Hailey, who confounded problems by lying to his insurance company about his medical history.

In a directed verdict in the middle of trial, Orange County Superior Court Judge Peter Polos found that Blue Shield acted in good faith when the company investigated the medical history of Hailey and dropped his policy. Hailey had brought a civil case against the insurer, saying Blue Shield dropped his coverage wrongly after a car crash left him with more than $400,000 in medical bills.

Humana unfairly dropped by humana health insurance Moneta Virginia
*Consumer Comment ..It is not a conspiracy

Submitted: 4/19/2009 11:38:33 AM
Modified: 6/3/2009 7:14:41 PM

Ripoff Report Verified Safe
In October of 2008 I was diagnosed with colon cancer. After surgery I began chemo therapy. It took forever for Humana to begin to pay my doctors. My insurance plan was payed with auto draft. (money was taken from my checking account every month) AT and T incorrectly withdrew a huge amount of money from my account which caused my auto draft with Humana to be returned. I recieved the notice and called Humana and payed for my January payment on January 25th. AT and T refused to deposit the money they incorrectly withdrew but credited my account for the next few months.

In the mean time, Humana canceled my auto draft plan. When I checked my checking accounts, I saw a payment was made on Feburary 4th which is around when my payments are usually withdrawn. Because I've been extremely tired from my treatment I didn't trace everything back in detail. On March 6th I checked my account again and was curious why Humana hadn't withdrawn Marches payment.

I was told that my account was canceled for non-payment. My last mayment was for January which didn't debit against my account until Febuary!

I don't know why I hadn't been called. I did recieve mail after the fact warning me. I offered to pay for Febuary on March. After all it was only the first week of March but they said I had to apply for reinstatement. That it should only take a week or two.

After several calls. I was told I wouldn't find out if I'd be reinstated until May 4th. There is an 'investigation' going on.

In the mean time I canceled my last 2 chemo treatments. It's been impossible to sleep worrying. My family and I have never been without health insurance!

The money was in the account. I can't believe they just didn't withdraw it!
I'm so frustrated that no one made an attempt to contact me by phone.

If I'm dropped now, I doubt that I'll ever be able to purchase health insurance because of my existing condition.

Calif. Reaches Settlement With Blue ShieldSACRAMENTO (AP) ―

California insurance regulators reached an agreement Tuesday with Blue Shield to provide new health coverage to nearly 700 consumers whose policies were canceled.

The settlement resolves a 2007 lawsuit filed by the state insurance commissioner after Blue Shield canceled policies over a roughly 5 ½-year period that ended in May 2008.

"People pay their insurance premiums and expect to be taken care of if they have an emergency," Insurance Commissioner Steve Poizner said in a statement. "Canceling someone's insurance can have devastating medical, emotional and financial impacts."

The deal also requires Blue Shield of California Life & Health Insurance Co. to reimburse the 678 consumers for any medical expenses they incurred because of the cancelations. The insurer also must make changes in its underwriting and claims practices.

The changes include setting up a third-party review process to rule on future policy rescissions.

Duncan Ross, president of Blue Shield of California, said the insurer was pleased to resolve the lawsuit.

"With this settlement, we can put these matters to rest and enter 2009 with new procedures in place to clarify the responsibilities of insurers and our customers in the future," he said in a statement.

Blue Shield spokesman Tom Epstein said the company did not acknowledge wrongdoing.

Last July, the insurer paid a $3 million fine as part of a separate settlement with the state Department of Managed Health Care for dropping hundreds of health insurance enrollees from its HMO.

The Department of Insurance said Blue Shield could be hit with a $5 million fine if it fails to carry out the agreement.

Consumers who suspect they may have been affected by the settlement can contact Blue Shield at 888-575-3439.

Blue Shield is among California's largest health insurance companies to be accused of improperly dropping patients from coverage when they try to make claims on their health insurance policies.

Health Net Inc., based in Woodland Hills, reached a $25 million agreement with regulators in September. Under that settlement, Health Net will offer new coverage to 926 customers it dropped from individual or family policies since 2004.


The truth about private insurance is that they spend much of their money and researching claiments history looking for any reason to drop you when you do make a claim! Under Obama you can't be drop or not treated for preexisting conditions.
Read the truth about Obama's Plan from those that are creating it below!I've never heard a senator complain about their plan. Ask Ed Kennedy


Why Obama's Health Plan Is Better

By DAVID M. CUTLER, J. BRADFORD DELONG and ANN MARIE MARCIARILLE

The big threat to growth in the next decade is not oil or food prices, but the rising cost of health care. The doubling of health insurance premiums since 2000 makes employers choose between cutting benefits and hiring fewer workers.

Rising health costs push total employment costs up and wages and benefits down. The result is lost profits and lost wages, in addition to pointless risk, insecurity and a flood of personal bankruptcies.


AP.Sustained growth thus requires successful health-care reform. Barack Obama and John McCain propose to lead us in opposite directions -- and the Obama direction is far superior.

Sen. Obama's proposal will modernize our current system of employer- and government-provided health care, keeping what works well, and making the investments now that will lead to a more efficient medical system. He does this in five ways:

- Learning. One-third of medical costs go for services at best ineffective and at worst harmful. Fifty billion dollars will jump-start the long-overdue information revolution in health care to identify the best providers, treatments and patient management strategies.

- Rewarding. Doctors and hospitals today are paid for performing procedures, not for helping patients. Insurers make money by dumping sick patients, not by keeping people healthy. Mr. Obama proposes to base Medicare and Medicaid reimbursements to hospitals and doctors on patient outcomes (lower cholesterol readings, made and kept follow-up appointments) in a coordinated effort to focus the entire payment system around better health, not just more care.

- Pooling. The Obama plan would give individuals and small firms the option of joining large insurance pools. With large patient pools, a few people incurring high medical costs will not topple the entire system, so insurers would no longer need to waste time, money and resources weeding out the healthy from the sick, and businesses and individuals would no longer have to subject themselves to that costly and stressful process.

- Preventing. In today's health-care market, less than one dollar in 25 goes for prevention, even though preventive services -- regular screenings and healthy lifestyle information -- are among the most cost-effective medical services around. Guaranteeing access to preventive services will improve health and in many cases save money.

- Covering. Controlling long-run health-care costs requires removing the hidden expenses of the uninsured. The reforms described above will lower premiums by $2,500 for the typical family, allowing millions previously priced out of the market to afford insurance.

In addition, tax credits for those still unable to afford private coverage, and the option to buy in to the federal government's benefits system, will ensure that all individuals have access to an affordable, portable alternative at a price they can afford.

Given the current inefficiencies in our system, the impact of the Obama plan will be profound. Besides the $2,500 savings in medical costs for the typical family, according to our research annual business-sector costs will fall by about $140 billion. Our figures suggest that decreasing employer costs by this amount will result in the expansion of employer-provided health insurance to 10 million previously uninsured people.

We know these savings are attainable: other countries have them today. We spend 40% more than other countries such as Canada and Switzeraland on health care -- nearly $1 trillion -- but our health outcomes are no better.

The lower cost of benefits will allow employers to hire some 90,000 low-wage workers currently without jobs because they are currently priced out of the market. It also would pull one and a half million more workers out of low-wage low-benefit and into high-wage high-benefit jobs. Workers currently locked into jobs because they fear losing their health benefits would be able to move to entrepreneurial jobs, or simply work part time.

In contrast, Sen. McCain, who constantly repeats his no-new-taxes promise on the campaign trail, proposes a big tax hike as the solution to our health-care crisis. His plan would raise taxes on workers who receive health benefits, with the idea of encouraging their employers to drop coverage. A study conducted by University of Michigan economist Tom Buchmueller and colleagues published in the journal Health Affairs suggests that the McCain tax hike will lead employers to drop coverage for over 20 million Americans.

What would happen to these people? Mr. McCain will give them a small tax credit, $5,000 for a family and $2,500 for an individual, and tell them to navigate the individual insurance market on their own.

For middle- and lower-income people, the credits are way too small. They are less than half the cost of policies today ($12,000 on average for a family), and are far below the 75% that most employers offering coverage contribute. Further, their value would erode over time, as the credit increases less rapidly than average premiums.

Those already sick are completely out of luck, as individual insurers are free to deny coverage due to pre-existing conditions. Mr. McCain has proposed a high-risk pool for the very sick, but has not put forward the money to make it work.

Even for those healthy enough to gain coverage in the individual insurance market, the screening, marketing and individual underwriting that insurers do to separate healthy from sick boosts premiums by 17% relative to employer-provided insurance, well beyond the help offered by the McCain tax credit.

The immediate consequences of the McCain plan are even worse. The McCain plan is a big tax increase on employers and workers. With the economy in recession, that's the last thing America's businesses need.

Finally, Mr. McCain does nothing to bend the curve of rising health-care costs downward. He does not fund investments in learning, rewarding and preventing. Eliminating state coverage requirements will slash preventive service availability.

The high cost-sharing plans he envisions will similarly discourage preventive care. And as he does nothing about the hidden costs of the uncovered -- expensive ER visits, recurring conditions resulting from inadequate follow-up care.

Everyone agrees our health-care financing system must change. But only one candidate, Barack Obama, has real change we can believe in.

Mr. Cutler is professor of economics at Harvard and an adviser to Barack Obama's presidential campaign. Mr. DeLong is professor of economics at University of California, Berkeley. Ms. Marciarille is adjunct law professor at McGeorge School of Law.


AIIZ

can't sit still
Posts: 4645
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:21 pm
Location: SoCal

Post by can't sit still » Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:33 am

littleflower, it's great that you're participating in informative discussion. One of the well-known traps of the web is disinformation. Your chart shows interest being a very low percentage. The latest figures show interest jumping from $ 20 billion a month to $ 100 billion;
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/repo ... xpense.htm
It's the fastest growing segment of the budget. While Obama "killed" the F-22 program, he's going ahead with the F-35. It's impossible to keep up on the true expenditures of GOV. GOV is so broke that they are planning to auction a couple hundred billion $ in bonds in the next few weeks. The debt service bill will only climb higher until it takes 100 % of the budget in a few years. GOV can't realistically fund any kind of comprehensive health bill.
I don't post things because I believe that they are the absolute truth. I post them because I believe that they should be considered.

User avatar
littleflower
Posts: 3420
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:30 pm
Location: rainforest canopy

Post by littleflower » Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:20 am

css ... i was wondering about the percentage of interest, it looked way low to me, too. i was more interested in the defense budget vs. social spending, in response to ygmir's question, and i found these numbers used in several sources. but, as with everything, i take it all with a grain of salt...

disinformation is indeed a problem. obviously. there are so many lies and half-truths out there, it makes my head spin! but this skepticism extends beyond the internet, to people who claim that *their* information is the truth .... hint hint hint .... :)

can't sit still
Posts: 4645
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 4:21 pm
Location: SoCal

Post by can't sit still » Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:32 pm

Hint, hint.?? I posted info straight from the GOV info page. You aren't implying that GOV would lie,,,, are you? But, it's true; you read something in 1 minute and the spend 4 hours looking for corroboration. One of the sources that tries to be accurate is shadow stats.
http://www.shadowstats.com/
GOV flat out quit posting M-3 money 16 months ago. The methods for reporting inflation and unemployment are beyond bizarre. The numbers are interesting but, the most important thing is one's personal situation. I never did trust GOV to treat me fairly, so, I'm not surprised or disappointed. I saw this coming 4 years ago, so, I got ready. I feel bad for all those who have no future. I've prepared a place so I can help friends and family. I would prefer to go back to world travel, but, I can't abandon the kids to be hedonistic.
The bankers ruined my playtime :(
I don't post things because I believe that they are the absolute truth. I post them because I believe that they should be considered.

Post Reply

Return to “Open Discussion”