The Health Care Bill

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ygmir
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Post by ygmir » Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:54 am

lurker wrote:
to me, neither one of you is convincing, but, are sounding like the same song, from, different sides of the fence.........
I have to take exception to this, ygmir. I did not post a series of ill-thought out profanity laced posts whose basic point is that most people agree and want this healthcare bill to pass--whose only corroboration is the whitehouse site.

I agree, you are much more polite. I was meaning that, the tenor from both of you is similar.......I tried to be careful not to make specific comparisons, but, that you both use similar type analogies and examples, backed by mostly the same sort of info.
not that that's bad, I don't mean it derogatory, I just mean your arguments are quite similar, in their opposing viewpoints........
And my base argument is that everything that the protesters are doing are things that people like AIIZ supported, even lauded, when they came from the left.



Even the 'most people' point was derided when the left was in the minority.
I agree
Thanks for bringing down a discussion to name calling which is one of your tactics when you are losing.
This line is most telling after the random scattershot insulting and profanity that characterised AIIZs posts. He plonked me after the rather mild sarcastic use of 'wit'---while having rolled through the thread with insults and profanity directed at those who did not accept his premise.

It actually suggests that it is he who yells and insults when he's losing--because he clearly is.

That SEIU cite proves my point handily

Likewise, I did not dispute the 71% line--because it's true. But, alone, it's deceptive. I want healthcare reform--but I've shown that the reform I want--as PART of that 71%--is radically different from what he says 'most' people want. In polls, 'most' people do not want socialized healthcare when the question is put to them--even as they say they want reform. Again, my point is simple fact. And it is fact that allows for those who want socialized medicine to stand equally with all the rest who want healthcare reform.

Then there is the sad fact that these protests are largely moot. The Democrats can do what they want. The best we can hope for is that the passage of this thing, in the manner that it will be passed, will cause a rout in the 2010 elections that will allow this abomination to be repealed before too much damage is done.

Finally, please don't equate me with AIIZ. I can, and have produced cites for what I say(though they are largely ignored or derided) on my arguments. I don't refuse to answer and I try to speak to each point in the posts I respond to.
I'd not say I was equating, so much as comparing........
yes, you two have different styles, in specifics.........
And, I do enjoy your arguments.
You two are very opposed in this, in so many ways.......and, I am enjoying reading the interaction.......

all this, IMHO, of course......
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Post by can't sit still » Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:35 am

Regardless of whether it is from the left or the right, the health care bill is from obama. What can you expect from Obama,,, compassion???

73,846 U.S. TROOPS DEAD; 1,620,906 PERMANENTLY DISABLED*

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS ISSUES OFFICIAL REPORT CONFIRMING 73,000 U.S. TROOPS KILLED IN IRAQ

SAME GOVERNMENT AGENCY REPORT CONFIRMS 1.6 MILLION "DISABLED" BY THE WAR!


OK, 1,620, 906 disabled. That doesn't count the injured.

"1,467 veterans died while waiting to learn if their disability claim would be approved by the government. The average duration of an appeal pending a VA decision on disability claims is 1,608 days, which amounts to nearly four and a half years." That is, of course, a reflection on GWB.


"ad press, including major mockery of the plan by comedian
Jon Stewart, led to President Obama abandoning his proposal to
require veterans carry private health insurance to cover the estimated
$540 million annual cost to the federal government of treatment for
injuries to military personnel received during their tours on active duty.
The President admitted that he was puzzled by the magnitude of the
opposition to his proposal.

"Look, it's an all volunteer force," Obama complained. "Nobody
made these guys go to war. They had to have known and
accepted the risks. Now they whine about bearing the costs of their
choice? It doesn't compute.." "I thought these were people who
were proud to sacrifice for their country, "Obama continued. "I
wasn't asking for blood, just money. With the country facing the worst financial crisis in its history, I'd have thought that the patriotic thing to do would be
to try to help reduce the nation's deficit. I guess I underestimated
the selfishness of some of my fellow Americans.""


He wasn't asking for blood. What an absolute asshole. They already gave their blood. So, all these injured and disabled vets are selfish whiners.

So, that piece of shit in the White House is "puzzled" about vets not wanting to pay for health care. The dumb fuck would probably also be puzzled to learn that many soldiers families are on food stamps and assistance.

They make the ultimate sacrifice and he calls them whiners. Maybe he should go through life as a paraplegic. That would maybe change his attitude.


If he has no compunction about fucking those who give the most to their country, what will be his attitude about the rest? DON'T FUCK THE VETS !
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Post by ygmir » Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:47 am

if the above is true, even I am surprised he'd go that far. I'm sure he has that attitude, but, to actually say it......dang.......that's dissapointing......

I do not say, CSS, that you prevaricate, I'm just saying that quote might be inaccurately posted somewhere else, and, repeated, under the concept of accuracy.

and, if accurate.....dang.........
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Post by littleflower » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:07 am

i just had an interesting discussion with a nurse friend of mine, who also happens to be canadian.

she is full of stories ... the sort of stuff you hear, that occasionally gets reported somewhere, people believe it or not ... but when it's someone you know, it hits home a bit.

he grandmother broke her hip when she was 80. she was taken to the hospital, they inserted a catheter ... and then took her to the top floor to die. for 3 days no IV, no pain meds, no food, no water. then they fixed her hip, which was not even badly broken... and she lived another 15 years.

she has another friend who was diagnosed with cancer and told there was nothing they could do ... the friend (also a nurse) took her life savings to minnesota and "bought herself another 15 years." (my nurse friend is also a cancer survivor whose case was very grim, she's been cancer free for about 11 years now....)

and then there is her friend who moved back to the UK .. her horror stories are worse ... like they don't bother to clean up between operations...

this friend's father was a doctor. they left for the US about 3 years after the change to socialized medicine ... he was so frustrated with the system that it was either leave canada, or retire. she estimates that 25% of doctors will retire if obamacare passes.

FWIW

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Post by ygmir » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:23 am

interesting points LF........

I note how people get lax when having a gov. job, at times, especially in a socialist gov......

my friends from the former eastern bloc have always commented on how no one took their job serious, and, did slovenly work.......even the healthcare........
I bet it gets that way, at times, with socialized healthcare in other places.....no incentive....no accountability, the bureaucracy takes over........

but, damn, it'd be nice to have a better system than we have.......

just, not take the first idea that comes along, it'll take a very comprehensive overhaul, including tort reform and "greed abatement"........
probably even a societal attitude shift, towards "helping your fellow humans", and " doing what's right", and away from "what's in it for me and how can I get more" along with "who cares if it's right, as long as I get mine" etc, etc........

making the wrong changes can be worse, than, no changes at all, IMHO.....
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Post by Ugly Dougly » Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:16 am

littleflower wrote:i just had an interesting discussion with a nurse friend of mine, who also happens to be canadian.

she is full of stories ... the sort of stuff you hear, that occasionally gets reported somewhere, people believe it or not ... but when it's someone you know, it hits home a bit.

he grandmother broke her hip when she was 80. she was taken to the hospital, they inserted a catheter ... and then took her to the top floor to die. for 3 days no IV, no pain meds, no food, no water. then they fixed her hip, which was not even badly broken... and she lived another 15 years.

she has another friend who was diagnosed with cancer and told there was nothing they could do ... the friend (also a nurse) took her life savings to minnesota and "bought herself another 15 years." (my nurse friend is also a cancer survivor whose case was very grim, she's been cancer free for about 11 years now....)
They are very lucky to have lived that long. I believe I already told you my horror story. :( I am sure there are plenty of such stories on this side of the border.

It's amazing how much waste there is in the medical system, and I am talking about commercial, non-"socialized" medicine. Money doesn't guarantee accountability. :)

I think that there is agreement about what's wrong and what's broken in our current health care system. It's probably not constructive to point to other broken systems, or systems that are broken in different ways.

Maybe your stories are emblematic of our current problem. There seem to be lots of focus on fixing things that are not problems, and little attention to what's really the problem and focusing on the solution. Certainly shouting matches at town hall meetings is not taking care of anyone's medical bills.

The profit motive and the free-market system should have created a lean, fair and affordable healthcare system, but it's not doing the job. Non-profits and the government should create a safety net for those who have nothing, but they are failing as well.

I honestly don't know what the solution is, but i think that we should be able to improve what we have, at the very least.

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Post by littleflower » Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:24 pm

dougly, your post makes me wonder whether there is a health system anywhere in the world that actually works! canada is usually thought of as a pretty good system ... so when you hear stories like this, it makes you pause a bit, especially when you know that they are true.

a lot is broken here, but there is also a lot that works.

my parents were talking about this recently ... in the 60's the only health insurance was catastrophic ... people paid for their own doctor visits and drugs. was that a perfect system? probably not, although at least people who tended to run to their doctors at the smallest sign of illness paid more for their care than those who waited until they really had a problem, and those who cared for their health paid less than those who didn't.

oh, who knows, i don't have the answer either ... but more government is almost always worse than less government, IMO. look at the post office ... remember when people weren't getting their burningman tickets because they were lost in the mail? and there was nobody to account for them, no retribution for lost tickets? you really want a health care system with that attitude? that's pretty much what we're heading towards, i think.

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Post by littleflower » Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:36 pm

dammit, too late to edit that post ....

dougly, do you really believe that 80 year olds with broken hips are really left for 3 days with no food, water, or meds in this country? i mean, i've heard of absurd waits in emergency rooms ... but this lady was admitted, given a catheter, and abandoned .... ? i see lawsuits with that kind of treatment in the US ... ?

and government is involved in health care ... it has been meddling since 1965.

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Post by Oldguy » Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:11 pm

A lot of it is the bureaucracy. I recently learned my CMSP (medical) card was not renewed when I got my food stamp renewal. I know I filled out the paperwork. Now I'm trying to get the Human Services Office to communicate with the Mental Health Office. It is in the files and computers somewhere.

I left a message for my social worker on the message service. Also the state Rehabilitation Office is in the mix, I have to go in Tuesday to sign permission for physician record searchs. The local mental health facility is only open Tuesday and Wednesday for screenings. I went today to start the process and have to go back Tuesday to finish a 2 hour interview. I'm trying to get my Zoloft restarted for my depression. My county health clinic which gives me a heart medication prescription does not do psych meds. Which is stupid.

I have heard horror stories about Emergency rooms. When folks don't have a family doctor, everyone goes to the emergency, which costs everyone and bogs down the system. As it stands now, I'm a full payer, but they have a sliding scale for low income. I hope my social worker gets the paperwork fixed. It would be nice if everyone could be treated. Free clinics and indigent family health fairs are always packed here. The need is great. If I ever get extremely sick or injured, I'm fucked.
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Post by Ugly Dougly » Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:59 pm

littleflower wrote:dammit, too late to edit that post ....

dougly, do you really believe that 80 year olds with broken hips are really left for 3 days with no food, water, or meds in this country? i mean, i've heard of absurd waits in emergency rooms ... but this lady was admitted, given a catheter, and abandoned .... ? i see lawsuits with that kind of treatment in the US ... ?

and government is involved in health care ... it has been meddling since 1965.
There is a recent story in the SF Bay Area of a man who went in for a gall bladder operation, but because of medical blunders, had to have his legs amputated. And that's not something I had to look for.

People who want to criticize socialized medicine can look for and find stuff like this. People who want to criticize commercial healthcare can and will find things like this as well.

They both need to focus their precious energy on solutions.

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Post by alt12 » Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:00 pm

can't sit still wrote:Regardless of whether it is from the left or the right, the health care bill is from obama. What can you expect from Obama,,, compassion???

73,846 U.S. TROOPS DEAD; 1,620,906 PERMANENTLY DISABLED*

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS ISSUES OFFICIAL REPORT CONFIRMING 73,000 U.S. TROOPS KILLED IN IRAQ

SAME GOVERNMENT AGENCY REPORT CONFIRMS 1.6 MILLION "DISABLED" BY THE WAR!


OK, 1,620, 906 disabled. That doesn't count the injured.

"1,467 veterans died while waiting to learn if their disability claim would be approved by the government. The average duration of an appeal pending a VA decision on disability claims is 1,608 days, which amounts to nearly four and a half years." That is, of course, a reflection on GWB.


"ad press, including major mockery of the plan by comedian
Jon Stewart, led to President Obama abandoning his proposal to
require veterans carry private health insurance to cover the estimated
$540 million annual cost to the federal government of treatment for
injuries to military personnel received during their tours on active duty.
The President admitted that he was puzzled by the magnitude of the
opposition to his proposal.

"Look, it's an all volunteer force," Obama complained. "Nobody
made these guys go to war. They had to have known and
accepted the risks. Now they whine about bearing the costs of their
choice? It doesn't compute.." "I thought these were people who
were proud to sacrifice for their country, "Obama continued. "I
wasn't asking for blood, just money. With the country facing the worst financial crisis in its history, I'd have thought that the patriotic thing to do would be
to try to help reduce the nation's deficit. I guess I underestimated
the selfishness of some of my fellow Americans.""


He wasn't asking for blood. What an absolute asshole. They already gave their blood. So, all these injured and disabled vets are selfish whiners.

So, that piece of shit in the White House is "puzzled" about vets not wanting to pay for health care. The dumb fuck would probably also be puzzled to learn that many soldiers families are on food stamps and assistance.

They make the ultimate sacrifice and he calls them whiners. Maybe he should go through life as a paraplegic. That would maybe change his attitude.


If he has no compunction about fucking those who give the most to their country, what will be his attitude about the rest? DON'T FUCK THE VETS !
like that much that has been posted on this thread, it is a lie....a 100% complete fabrication....similar to the posts here which listed proposals under the healthcare reform bill line by line with little interpretations like "this inserts government into your marraige!!!!"..... The problem here is that we have in essence a field of paranoia that people are operating in..... The old adage that if its too good to be true it isn't applies here in reverse.... If its so absurdly ridiculously malicious or f'd up, like the president of the united states stating in a public speech that veterans are "whiners" and "selfish" you'd have to be an absolute idiot to believe or be so naive as to be childlike..... My god, I'll tell you it is scary to hear this stuff and people just scoop it up as fact, repeat it.... but oh well people will be sheeple everywhere.... perhaps using some critical analysis (i.e. doing a little something I like to call thinking for myself) rather than just blindly adopting anything that you hear that resonates with your present emotion (fear and anger in this case) and regurgitating it all over the internet..... Use your brain 1st.....then open your mouth 2nd......

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Post by Boijoy » Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:52 pm

don't forget to floss

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Post by Boijoy » Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:53 pm

don't forget to floss

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Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:59 pm

first Ygmir, I don't laud or support the disruption tactic of a peaceful discussion nor have I ever said that I agree with the extreme left tactic of rioting or the extreme right of blowing up FBI buildings.

I support peaceful movements and discussions.

So far, this delay of the bill is only helping to disperse the mistruths coming out of the conspiracy minded right talk show hosts and the republican national committee as I said it would. You can only create so many lies, but it only takes time to confront them and convince the 29% of the population to agree of which a smaller percentage are neutral in their opinion.

What else I have seen is that the republicans are seeing that they are among the losing minority and do not want to be left on the side and therefore have no legacy in a popular movement. Republican supporters are on a decline historically. Who can run on a platform that didn’t have a say in one of america’s most important decisions. So now they are supporting some of the key features of the bill, such as, No Dropped Coverage because of Pre Existing Conditions or Contiguous coverage to those that lose insurance due to employer’s dropping coverage or when they lose their jobs! That change of necessity was motivated because of the large number of people hurting because of our current economy.

What do the Republicans have to bring to the table- Tort resolution and new sources of revenue so it will pay for it without the government holding the tab! But to do so, they have to agree on new taxes.

So it will happen, not as soon as many families and workers would like, but it will be happening.

So lets work on this together.

Here’s something that a Tea Bagger said to the press, “We have to save everyone!â€

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Post by can't sit still » Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:08 pm

I just wanted to see if y'all were asleep :lol:
Re: Report of over 73,000 dead in Iraq War


This is what I wrote in response to this exact same report in September 2007:



Wish I could find the origin of this crazy email and kill it. It makes us look ridiculous. Please let's try to get our facts straight. Because we who oppose the evil being done by our government are subject to attack, we must try to maintain our credibility. To help with this, I'd like to point out a couple of errors in your article on Gulf War deaths. First, let me say that I too believe that the official DoD figures for US combat deaths in the Iraq War are artificially low. The real figure may be closer to 10,000 than 3,800. But to say that more have died than did in Vietnam (55,000+) is very wrong.

First, the Gulf War being referred to in the VA report is the FIRST Gulf War under Bush the first -- not the current Iraq war and occupation.

Second, the 73,000+ deaths are the total number of deaths from 1991 to 2007.

Third, the 73,000+ deaths are from all causes, including natural causes years after getting out of service.

Fourth, the 73,000+ deaths are from all those who were in the military in 1991-1992, not just those who served in the Gulf War conflict.

The report says that 73,000+ out of over 1.5 million service members on active duty in 1991 are no longer alive. Period. This is in no way comparable to the over 55,000 who died as a direct result of combat in Vietnam. If we did an "apples to apples" comparison and asked, "Out of the perhaps 3 million who served in the military at some time while the Vietnam War was going on, how many are not still alive?" the answer would probably be over two million. Does that mean that there were over 2,000,000 US Vietnam war deaths? Of course not.

I really appreciate your efforts to expose government lies. (I've been doing it full time for 25 years. And I've made my share of mistakes, too.) But we must be careful to get our facts straight whenever possible. Thanks!

Bob Bowman
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Post by DoriumLux » Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:39 pm

Olbermann Slams Palin For "Death Panel" Claim, Calls Her Dangerously Irresponsible

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/1 ... 56207.html[/url]

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Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:40 am

DoriumLux wrote:Olbermann Slams Palin For "Death Panel" Claim, Calls Her Dangerously Irresponsible

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/1 ... 56207.html[/url]
Palin who?


Correction:

Here’s something that a Tea Bagger said to the press, “We have to save everyone!â€

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Post by Ugly Dougly » Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:24 am

Just checking by to see if anyone has solved the health care crisis.

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Post by ygmir » Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:31 am

yes:

[youtube][/youtube]
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Post by lurker » Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:17 am

I am sure there are plenty of such stories on this side of the border.
UD is right, you can find such stories on this side of the border--as has been illustrated.

And if you delve into those stories you will find that, more often than not, their cause is the same--bureacrats. Federal or private, but still bureacrats.
It's amazing how much waste there is in the medical system, and I am talking about commercial, non-"socialized" medicine. Money doesn't guarantee accountability.
Sadly, we no longer know how much waste is inherent in a totally non-socialized healthcare system. We certainly don't have one.

But, from what I've seen, a good chunk of waste creation comes from mandates created by bureacrats.

The problem with any socialized system is in the reversal of the relationship between society and the individual.

Society--civilization--exists to facillitate the needs, wants and desires of the individuals that make up the society in question.

Under a socialized system, the rights of the individual are secondary to the rights of the society at large--the same society that should have no other purposes than helping the individuals that comprise it live.

Because of this one's life can be looked at in terms of how that life impacts the society in a positive way.

This entire point of view is anathema to the basic principles upon with this country was founded.

We are a nation of individuals, governed by and equal before, the laws we choose to create. Primary among those precepts is the idea that we should not and must not accept tyranny.

If the government would get out of the way--entirely--the free market WOULD create a system that is leaner, less wasteful, and far more affordable.

But, if government did that, thousands of bureacrats--the lifeblood of government--would suddenly have to find honest work. Worse, they'd have less revenue. How many billions that were paid into SS/Medicare/aid have gone to finance things totally unrelated to healthcare? How many Robert C Byrd highway miles are paved with cash stolen from retirees? How many world tours for Boehner and his cronies and their families are resulting in diabetics getting amputations rather than insulin?

Bureacracies are parasitic creatures that will kill their host, oversee those that come to consume the corpse, and latch on to one of the scavengers as a new host.

I know. I've been IN them. I watched as NURSES were fired. Nurses who were needed--while not one member of the bureacracy behind the registrar's office--many whose day consisted of chatting and comparing fake fingernails--was let go. Even though the job could have been done with less than half the staff.
in the 60's the only health insurance was catastrophic ... people paid for their own doctor visits and drugs. was that a perfect system? probably not
Actually, littleflower, it probably WAS--if you're going to HAVE insurance, it should BE insurance.

You buy insurance to help in case something big and horrible happens. Car insurance covers accidents and thefts...not oil changes and new tires. Homeowners insurance covers fires, break-ins, disasters....not new paint in the master or a new dinette set. That's what healh insujrance used to do. Insure against you being hurt badly, or getting a horrible disease--it was never intended to cover physicals and basic medical care.

When we started adding care we started adding more and more regulation to common things that are not the unforseen events that SHOULD be insured, but the regular maintenance that we KNOW we're going to need.

And when we added regulation, we created bureacracies to see to it that those regulations were obeyed

Do you know why so many co-pays are $20? Because that was the price of a doctor visit when these things were starting to be implemented.
If its so absurdly ridiculously malicious or f'd up, like the president of the united states stating in a public speech that veterans are "whiners" and "selfish" you'd have to be an absolute idiot to believe or be so naive as to be childlike.
Why, alt12? I've heard him tell everyone that the cop acted stupidly immediately after admitting --publically-- that he had no idea what had actually happened. I've heard him say, again publically that doctors are cutting off people's feet to get some more money. I heard him tell a woman, publically, that he felt that it was okay that doctors tell her mother that she forgo the operation that saved her life and just take painkillers until she died. The man says stupid things all the damned time.

I think the best was when a spokesman for the President, after people started putting up video of these speeches, actually told people that they should not believe what they were seeing--that ALL of these speeches were constructed from bits of film to make it LOOK like he was saying these things.

I think your post is fishy. I'm gonna report you to the snitchline.
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Post by littleflower » Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:45 pm

lurker wrote:
I am sure there are plenty of such stories on this side of the border.
UD is right, you can find such stories on this side of the border--as has been illustrated.

And if you delve into those stories you will find that, more often than not, their cause is the same--bureacrats. Federal or private, but still bureacrats.
i think there is a pretty big difference between dougly's example and mine.
There is a recent story in the SF Bay Area of a man who went in for a gall bladder operation, but because of medical blunders, had to have his legs amputated. And that's not something I had to look for.
this is human error and/or negligence. and there is some recourse.
her grandmother broke her hip when she was 80. she was taken to the hospital, they inserted a catheter ... and then took her to the top floor to die. for 3 days no IV, no pain meds, no food, no water. then they fixed her hip, which was not even badly broken... and she lived another 15 years.

she has a friend who was diagnosed with cancer and told there was nothing they could do ... the friend (also a nurse) took her life savings to minnesota and "bought herself another 15 years." (my nurse friend is also a cancer survivor whose case was very grim, she's been cancer free for about 11 years now....)
these are both policy decisions - no negligence, no error, and no recourse.

bureaucracy seems to kill just about everything the government touches. and those bureaucrats retire at 55 with a large pension and healthcare for life ... and guess who pays? we get worse care, and pay more for it.

everyone wants solutions, but too often the solutions just cause even more problems...

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Apollonaris Zeus
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Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:05 am

yes solutions do cause more problems that's why I'm betting on Zeus to close the book on prometheus experiment. It's a failure.

One women I know paid into her insurance for many years, then when she was dropped when she file for a claim. After many months, they finally reactivated her policy. By then her cancer had advance to the point of inoperative surgery.

She died waiting for a doctor to see her.

Sounds like the horror of a socialized plan but it was the private corporate treatment.

they'll feed you lies, you'll eat death!

AIIZ

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Ugly Dougly
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Post by Ugly Dougly » Sat Aug 15, 2009 8:35 am

True enough. Any large organization (Kaiser, the US military, Sun Microsystems, BMorg) has features similar to a large government bureaucracy. The root of the term "bureaucracy" is the word for "office".

Unfortunately, today's medicine is dependent on expensive equipment and exotic technology. My living personally depends on making some of that technology.

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Ugly Dougly
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Post by Ugly Dougly » Sat Aug 15, 2009 8:42 am

The budget for the Apollo space program equaled $136,000,000,000 in today's dollars. The US population was about 200 million.

By my probably really bad math, that works out to $640 from everyone. I don't care how many bottle rockets you throw into the back of a pickup, I don't think that we would have gotten to the moon if we hadn't pooled resources.

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ygmir
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Post by ygmir » Sat Aug 15, 2009 8:50 am

IMHO,
most of the crisis is an outcome of the conflict in basic human nature.

Greed vs Good

until people look at healthcare (and all the ancillary industry associated) as doing "good" or "right" for others, and, not as a way to get rich, it'll stay corrupt...........

and, that's the rub, to me.

no matter how much we sing "coombaya (sp?)", someone will still think they need more money..........
YGMIR

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Apollonaris Zeus
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Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Sat Aug 15, 2009 3:47 pm

Ugly Dougly wrote: Unfortunately, today's medicine is dependent on expensive equipment and exotic technology. My living personally depends on making some of that technology.
Living high on the hog are ya, Doughly!

this thread is looking really screwed up. I'm going to start another on this subject. When this one get fixed they can combined the two.

You guy OK with that?

AIIZ

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Apollonaris Zeus
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Our Health Care Bill Redux

Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Sat Aug 15, 2009 3:57 pm

I started this thread since the original one has some code violations and is just not working right. Until that one gets fixed lets continue the discussion here and then combind the two later.

Wow the Montana Obama townhall meeting went just real good. No one tried to bomb the meeting- oh how I miss Ted the Unibomber- those were real good times in MT. Ted and I would blow things up just for the fun of it when we were just lit'tots out in the big sky state.

Even the opponents posed some excellent questions. Montana has some real concerns with health care. Most companies don't qualify for discounts that larger businesses get.

Saw a bunch of my friends. Fuckers didn't say Hi to me when they got the mic.

AIIZ

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Oldguy
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Post by Oldguy » Sat Aug 15, 2009 4:08 pm

In my area, some kids had access to dynamite sticks. Their daddies were farmers and blew stumps out of the ground. They would tie a quarter stick to a tree limb, light the fuse, and run like hell. Ahhh, the good ol' days.

Back to the debate, rational discussion and listening to both sides often helps solve problems. When people start shouting, people stop listening. Rabble rousers often hurt thier own cause by being belligerant. IMHO.
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" Build your wall. we got tunnels. " - George Lopez

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AntiM
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Post by AntiM » Sat Aug 15, 2009 5:52 pm

If it is still screwed up, then it it you. Looks just fine on my mozilla.

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Apollonaris Zeus
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Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:12 pm

AntiM wrote:If it is still screwed up, then it it you. Looks just fine on my mozilla.
No it's is still not showing up like the it should and it seems to be just this thread. But now its looks fine on IE.

I too am using zilla. OK I see what could have been the problem. I have some people on Plonk and when I allowed their post. It all reloaded correctly. I never saw that, but I'm new to the plonk scene.

AIIZ

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