Nazi's to force Circumcision on all boys born in US

All things outside of Burning Man.

Dick's Big Or Small

I will not cut the tip off of my baby's dick
22
38%
I will not cut the tip off of my baby's dick
22
38%
I will cut the tip off of my baby's dick
7
12%
I will cut the tip off of my baby's dick
7
12%
 
Total votes: 58

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Apollonaris Zeus
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Nazi's to force Circumcision on all boys born in US

Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:56 am

Your Public Health Official want to cut the tip of your dick off resulting in smaller penises! Are we not made in the likeness of Our God? Therefore, I guess his dick has been cut off!

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/24/healt ... ml?_r=1&hp

Studies have shown that penises that have been circed, are smaller- well idiot where did you the think the extra skin to grow came from!

Do you hear that women, smaller pricks to prick you!

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Post by Roberto Dobbisano » Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:00 am

"10 principles? you cant HANDLE the 10 principles..."

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Post by C.f.M. » Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:04 am

A-ha ha ha ha ha!

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Kinetik V
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Post by Kinetik V » Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:12 am

In this house with a baby boy due around Dec 18th, the question of circumcision has been discussed...and the decision for us is easy. He will be cut. From the health benefits to the overall general aesthetic appearance for this entire family the choice was unanimous, without even one voice of dissent.

AZ, there's a lot of times your discussions make sense to me and I agree with them. But in this case I think you're flat out wrong. Fortunately parents like myself (scary thought isn't it), still get to make this choice and not have the government force it down our throats.

Your entitled to your opinion but my mind on this issue is locked...and there's not a snowball's chance in hell that it can be changed.
Kinetic V
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Apollonaris Zeus
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Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:32 am

Kinetic V wrote:In this house with a baby boy due around Dec 18th, the question of circumcision has been discussed...and the decision for us is easy. He will be cut. From the health benefits to the overall general aesthetic appearance for this entire family the choice was unanimous, without even one voice of dissent.

AZ, there's a lot of times your discussions make sense to me and I agree with them. But in this case I think you're flat out wrong. Fortunately parents like myself (scary thought isn't it), still get to make this choice and not have the government force it down our throats.

Your entitled to your opinion but my mind on this issue is locked...and there's not a snowball's chance in hell that it can be changed.
OK, your stuborn and have already insulted the Made-In-His-Form-God- I'm talking about the uncut god!

But Aesthetic!

The uncut is much better looking, works better and grows larger! I think most doctors scare their patients into the decision and plus the hospital and the Doc makes around $900 extra.

It's a wet glan to begin with and was never meant to be dry. The dry effect on the Glan kills the sensitive nerve endings. The extra skin forms a seal to the labia on a women to keep the penis and the vagina wet during sex. Most of the sensitive skin is gone like sewing up the vagina for a women.

Answer that one K

I know it's too late, you made the decission, it's done and there nothing you can do about except your child will hate you when he becomes an adult since you stole his right to think for himself and make his own decision.

So you must be cut too? I'm I right!

I thought so.

Someday K, hopefully not, the only sex you will have is with a bottle of viagra, personal lube and hopefully your wife until she leaves for a younger man with a natural prick because women prefer uncut dicks when they have been given the choice- it may mainly be because of the size- about an inch longer and wider! Circumcision should only be done during youth if the child has a dysfunction and other wise when an adult after the penis gone through puperty. Maybe after his 18th year, but a penis still grows into old age if used regulary.

Maybe we should hear from some women that have experienced both?

And I'm not talking about some person's sock either!

AIIZ

PS- and did anyone ever think that Abraham the Cutted ONe, thought it was so great was because he may have had a foreskin dysfunction?

"Wow, this is amazing! My dick doesn't hurt anymore when I have my erection!"

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Post by Generic Anonymity » Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:31 pm

My boyfriend's parents didn't want him to be circumcised, actually, but it happened anyway. (I'm guessing a grandparent took the final say.)

It's a tough decision, really, because if you wait until the child is old enough to decide, the procedure becomes more risky and difficult. (Of course, that's not a concern if they choose not to do it.)
In many cases, it turns out that the child gets whatever decision matches their father's. Sort of a "like father, like son" effect.
Some people cite that a circumcised head is easier to clean and less likely to get infections. However, on the other side of the coin, the exposure can cause the sensitive skin to become irritated and that in itself can be painful enough.

Testing has been done as to whether sex for the man is better depending on whether or not he has been circumcised, but it was inconclusive.
Men who have been or haven't been circumcised both express enjoyment of sex, and it's hard to compare it unless one man has experienced both situations.

But as to the reasoning being aesthetic or size, I don't know that I can agree. I can't say that I've experienced sex with an uncircumcised man, but I can't imagine trying to have sex with my boyfriend if he hadn't been circumcised.
The supposed extra inch wide and long would be near-impossible to fit.

One last thing - Viagra addresses an unrelated health issue - it has to do with circulation. I've often heard it put that the penis can be considered a dipstick for mens health.
If your blood isn't circulating well in your dick, it's probably not circulating well elsewhere. Rather than turning to Viagra, a man should first consider whether he has blockage from cholesterol.

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Apollonaris Zeus
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Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:25 pm

Generic Anonymity wrote:My boyfriend's parents didn't want him to be circumcised, actually, but it happened anyway. (I'm guessing a grandparent took the final say.)
I'm sure they said, we'll cut you out of the will if you don't cut him!
It's a tough decision, really, because if you wait until the child is old enough to decide, the procedure becomes more risky and difficult. (Of course, that's not a concern if they choose not to do it.)

There is a thought that circumcision is a residual of when females were priestesses and deities were also female as such in matriarchal societies.

Some people cite that a circumcised head is easier to clean and less likely to get infections. However, on the other side of the coin, the exposure can cause the sensitive skin to become irritated and that in itself can be painful enough.

Some people cite that a healthy and clean penis contains whiteblood cells, antibodies including antigens that fight infections and disease. But it serves little to protect women from disease even if it is circumsized. here is were the argument that it does not protect women from getting HIV, but does protect the man. HIV in America is mainly kept to certain groups that practise unsave drug and sex use.

But as to the reasoning being aesthetic or size, I don't know that I can agree. I can't say that I've experienced sex with an uncircumcised man, but I can't imagine trying to have sex with my boyfriend if he hadn't been circumcised.

You'll get horny enough to stick anything up there
The supposed extra inch wide and long would be near-impossible to fit.

You say that now, wait until you do get a big one up there. You'll so full, fuller then ever before and you won't go back to little dick agains. Ask any women that has had children and found a larger man!


One last thing - Viagra addresses an unrelated health issue - it has to do with circulation. I've often heard it put that the penis can be considered a dipstick for mens health.

Have you had your oil check lately? this is a full service island mame!
If your blood isn't circulating well in your dick, it's probably not circulating well elsewhere. Rather than turning to Viagra, a man should first consider whether he has blockage from cholesterol.
Just take the viagra test.

If Generic Anonymity's Avatar doesn't make you horny, Viagra will!

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Post by theCryptofishist » Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:05 pm

Given that the actual Nazis used circumcision as a way of detecting jewishness, I find this laughable.
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Apollonaris Zeus
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Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:08 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:Given that the actual Nazis used circumcision as a way of detecting jewishness, I find this laughable.
You are so sexist!

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Post by Generic Anonymity » Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:30 pm

Apollonaris Zeus wrote:Just take the viagra test.

If Generic Anonymity's Avatar doesn't make you horny, Viagra will!

I don't consider myself enough of an expert on the subject to decide whether or not a child should be circumcised.
Mostly, I just wanted to put a few various points of view out there. I appreciate your additional points, especially when juxtaposed near the most appropriate sections of my post.

However, I wish to clarify one detail. I said that my boyfriend is circumcised, yes. I also said that sex would most likely be difficult if he were larger.
This is not based on the concept that I would prefer a small dick.
My boyfriend's cock is not of average size. You might be led to assume, since he was circumcised, that he is below average.
This could not be further from the truth. Since he isn't the only man I've been with, I can at least state this with the knowledge that I'm not just being naive.

But in any case, thank you for the compliment on my avatar. It's good to know that my work is enjoyed.

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Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:40 pm

Generic Anonymity wrote:
Apollonaris Zeus wrote:Just take the viagra test.

If Generic Anonymity's Avatar doesn't make you horny, Viagra will!
However, I wish to clarify one detail. I said that my boyfriend is circumcised, yes. I also said that sex would most likely be difficult if he were larger.
This is not based on the concept that I would prefer a small dick.
My boyfriend's cock is not of average size. You might be led to assume, since he was circumcised, that he is below average.
This could not be further from the truth. Since he isn't the only man I've been with, I can at least state this with the knowledge that I'm not just being naive.

OK then it was his size that was a significate reason you have chosen him for a mate?

Size did matter!

and the guy with the biggest cock wins?


But in any case, thank you for the compliment on my avatar. It's good to know that my work is enjoyed.
Which part? the touchy feely part or the image altering part?

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Post by Kinetik V » Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:15 pm

First off, I prefer to not take my medical advice straight from posts made on electronic forums. And no, it's not too late as our boy is not here yet...our current due date is Dec 18th. And yes, I'm stubborn. I'm from Missouri. If you haven't figured that out by now, there's no hope for ya.

I happen to think leaving a boy uncut is wrong. Having remembered the days in the locker room during middle school and high school I saw other kids get ridiculed for being cut. I never had that problem...and I will not have my child go through that experience either. As a parent it is my obligation to partially shield my child from experiences that will do them no good...and while I don't want to be the overly protective suburban parent and go overkill on sheltering them, if I can help them avoid a few bad experiences then by Kali that is what I will do.

Now your viagra comment made me laugh. Seriously, if my wife leaves me it won't be over if it's cut or not. If she was to leave me for that reason then it means I've failed to take care of her other needs, be that emotional, mental, spiritual, as well as physical. Sex is an important part of a relationship, but not the only part. And when it comes to sex, if all we're thinking about is about if I'm cut or uncut, well we're clueless idiots who are missing out on so many other things. It would be like walking into a gelato shop and ordering generic vanilla ice cream fresh off the Sysco food service truck vs exploring the myriads of offerings out there that a man and woman can enjoy.

I do have to wonder...based on how vivid of a description you gave about the bottle of Viagra, personal lube, etc if this is your experience? Who are you to tell the rest of us that circumcision is so wrong? What credentials can you offer to back up your claim? Oh that's right, you don't have any or at least none that you've made clearly apparent. You're just taking your right wing media oversaturated brain and linking it to the giant propaganda machine to spew the same mindless drivel that everything's a damn conspiracy and yadda yadda yadda, if you don't do this you're going to hell, if you do that you'fe fucking your life and that of your kids up...sheesh, it reminds me of that Focus on the Family bullshit that gets pumped out of Colorado Springs on a daily basis. I have a bumper sticker on the back of my truck that says quite simply: focus on your own family...which is what more people need to do. Oops, I went off on a tangent...sorry, but I get my shots in whenever I can and won't be apologizing for using a shotgun approach.

Anyway back on topic...if you can come back with sound medical and scientific facts to back your position fine. I'll listen. If you can relate stories and experiences that come from being a parent, you betcha I'll listen. I'll hang on your words and process them in and chances are if it passes the good old Missouri common sense / no bullshit filters that my family has instilled in me, then we'll run with it. But if all you want to give is right wing media propaganda...well I'm just not buying what your selling.

(AZ, my fiancee also reads this board but rarely posts, but this debate has caught her attention. So...as I said above if you can give us a rock solid argument...we're listening. You have a golden opportunity to influence this choice and to make a real difference. Take advantage of the opportunity...and that goes for others as well....if you want to weigh in on this, we're watching and taking it all into consideration. But keep in mind...my fiancee and I value SCIENCE and solid medical FACTS from credible mainstream sources...it trumps media spin every time.)
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Post by littleflower » Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:17 pm

the worst sex i ever had was a guy with a huge dick.

it did not feel good.

white guy.

circumcised.

very good looking.

you can have him ....

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Post by Generic Anonymity » Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:42 am

Oh come on, I didn't pick him out of a crowd because I suspected he'd have a huge dick. I like a lot of things about him - his personality & sense of humor, his voice, his eyes, his lips...
his sense of adventure and his strong opinions. Sex is just a bonus.


PS - Don't get the impression that I'm offended. I'm mostly entertained with these forum debates. But I am by no means such a master at debates... get what I'm sayin? ;)

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Post by Oldguy » Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:56 am

FWIW, When I was thirteen I went under the knife. Like Abraham's son, I had no choice in the matter.

I had no problems with it, till I went into the Army. There a redneck bigot of a North Carolinian Corporal who believed I was Jewish called me a "Heeb". He did not know some Goyim parents believed in the hygenic value of the procedure, like improved cleanliness and reduced STD infections. From then on in my unit, I was the "Jew". It was a very enlightening experience in learning "American Values".

To the OP, Schmuck.

______________________-
edited to spell racial epithet correctly, thank you C.f.m. It is heeb not heb.
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Post by C.f.M. » Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:58 am

Schmuck is correct. "Heb" is not. "Heeb" is.

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Apollonaris Zeus
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Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:51 pm

Kinetic V wrote:First off, I prefer to not take my medical advice straight from posts made on electronic forums. And no, it's not too late as our boy is not here yet...our current due date is Dec 18th. And yes, I'm stubborn. I'm from Missouri. If you haven't figured that out by now, there's no hope for ya.

I happen to think leaving a boy uncut is wrong. Having remembered the days in the locker room during middle school and high school I saw other kids get ridiculed for being cut. I never had that problem...and I will not have my child go through that experience either. As a parent it is my obligation to partially shield my child from experiences that will do them no good...and while I don't want to be the overly protective suburban parent and go overkill on sheltering them, if I can help them avoid a few bad experiences then by Kali that is what I will do.

Now your viagra comment made me laugh. Seriously, if my wife leaves me it won't be over if it's cut or not. If she was to leave me for that reason then it means I've failed to take care of her other needs, be that emotional, mental, spiritual, as well as physical. Sex is an important part of a relationship, but not the only part. And when it comes to sex, if all we're thinking about is about if I'm cut or uncut, well we're clueless idiots who are missing out on so many other things. It would be like walking into a gelato shop and ordering generic vanilla ice cream fresh off the Sysco food service truck vs exploring the myriads of offerings out there that a man and woman can enjoy.

I do have to wonder...based on how vivid of a description you gave about the bottle of Viagra, personal lube, etc if this is your experience? Who are you to tell the rest of us that circumcision is so wrong? What credentials can you offer to back up your claim? Oh that's right, you don't have any or at least none that you've made clearly apparent. You're just taking your right wing media oversaturated brain and linking it to the giant propaganda machine to spew the same mindless drivel that everything's a damn conspiracy and yadda yadda yadda, if you don't do this you're going to hell, if you do that you'fe fucking your life and that of your kids up...sheesh, it reminds me of that Focus on the Family bullshit that gets pumped out of Colorado Springs on a daily basis. I have a bumper sticker on the back of my truck that says quite simply: focus on your own family...which is what more people need to do. Oops, I went off on a tangent...sorry, but I get my shots in whenever I can and won't be apologizing for using a shotgun approach.

Anyway back on topic...if you can come back with sound medical and scientific facts to back your position fine. I'll listen. If you can relate stories and experiences that come from being a parent, you betcha I'll listen. I'll hang on your words and process them in and chances are if it passes the good old Missouri common sense / no bullshit filters that my family has instilled in me, then we'll run with it. But if all you want to give is right wing media propaganda...well I'm just not buying what your selling.

(AZ, my fiancee also reads this board but rarely posts, but this debate has caught her attention. So...as I said above if you can give us a rock solid argument...we're listening. You have a golden opportunity to influence this choice and to make a real difference. Take advantage of the opportunity...and that goes for others as well....if you want to weigh in on this, we're watching and taking it all into consideration. But keep in mind...my fiancee and I value SCIENCE and solid medical FACTS from credible mainstream sources...it trumps media spin every time.)
Glad you enjoyed the viagra comment since I did mean it as a joke!

K have we been down this road before? I mean on circumcision. I did make another thread back in the pre-2003 eplaya crash. I believe you asked the same sensible questions.

I like you not because you sometimes agree with but because you bring a different voice to this thread that is more open to change and more so then me. Glad you didn't circumcise him yet and I hope that he will be a very healthy child.

I know of no family member that had a problem with not being circumcision, no I take that back. We did have a cousin that did have a problem and it was discovered at birth. Circumcision surgery was necessary. Other then that, all my relatives both the wife and husbands lived long a life- not including those that may have been exposed to TB when it was prevalent or lung cancer related to smoking. So, I have no personal exposure to what the medical related horrors of being in a relationship.



My father was well hung and me will I guess I have technique if you know what I mean.

K, I could post every pro-natural penis site and they will better state their facts then I can repeat them here and so can the pro-cut pose theirs!

I'm sure you researched them.

But I'm no right winger- my hangs to the left and always did!

As far as your child's exposure to ridicule, he will have to deal with it sometime that is part of childhood, just show him how to throw a good punch and how to take one. His bigger dick will get the last laugh in anyway!

If there's a medical problem, then do it, but don't do it because you want him to join the crowd because in the end hopefully there will be two, then two or of his own!

AIIZ

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Post by joel the ornery » Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:12 am

two words: soup sandwich

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Post by EvilDustBooger » Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:34 am

Image

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Post by Green Wood » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:27 am

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Post by Ugly Dougly » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:39 am

Those damn Nazi Jewish doctors got to me already! The mutilation was hideous!

:shock:

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Post by Red Dirt Mother » Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:36 am

As a birth attendant and mother of 3 sons I vote no on circumcision with all of my heart.

It is my wish that all new parents considering circumcision view footage of the actual procedure (I have a DVD and can make copies) first.

You can call me an intactavist!
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Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:29 am

As the trusted advisors of expecting parents, doctors play a key role in educating people about circumcision, yet many of them never mention the ethics, risks, or harms. As we continue our work to protect baby boys, now is an especially critical time to reach out to pediatricians and family doctors.

Why now? Because the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) and the American Academy of Family Physicians (AAFP) are considering an unprecedented recommendation of circumcision for all baby boys in the United States.

Send a message to the AAP and AAFP today – and tell them you oppose a recommendation of circumcision for all baby boys.

In less than two weeks, Intact America will be on the ground at the AAP and AAFP conferences, where we'll educate medical professionals and fight misinformation.

Our message to the AAP and AAFP is clear. Circumcision is WRONG – ethically, morally, and medically.

We need you to add your support NOW, so we can make sure that the AAP and AAFP don't ignore the ethics of performing unnecessary and unjustifiable surgery on babies. Because when parents turn to doctors for information about circumcision, doctors turn to the AAP and AAFP.

Tell the AAP and AAFP today that you oppose a recommendation of circumcision for all baby boys.

It's hard to overstate what's at stake here for baby boys.

Thank you, again, for all that you do.

Georganne Chapin
Executive Director, Intact America
www.intactamerica.org

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Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:50 am

[youtube][/youtube]

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Post by Fire_Moose » Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:17 am

How much does a Mohel make?


$30,000 plus tips
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Post by Simon of the Playa » Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:20 am

hey A to Zip, how does it feel to be a walking, talking stereotype?
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Post by rodiponer » Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:21 am

"overall general aesthetic appearance"

I don't understand the aesthetic reason to favor circumcision. I know it's common, all of the expectant parents at the birth classes we attended cited this as the main reason they would circumcise their child. Something along the lines as "So he would look the same as everyone else in the family." and etc.

But I've seen both ways and can't say that one looks better than the other. And even then it seems like piercing the nipples of little girls because it looks better.

No one looks the same as everyone else in their family. I don't think one small difference in genitals is significant. The child won't have pubic hair, either, should he have a little crotch toupee so he doesn't feel different from Dad? :) Or if you have a tattoo, should the child have an identical one?

And, well, kids of a certain age are mean. They will make fun of each other for anything. So even if he is circumcised, he might be fat. Or pale. Or have acne. Or be a nerd. Or have a name that rhymes with something, or whatever. I think it's a losing battle, and wrong, to try and make him conform to the mainstream in every last way, especially in such a permanent and personal way.

So, to me, circumcision is culturally sanctioned genital mutilation. I hesitate to use strong words like that because it makes me sound like an extremist, but, well, that's what I feel it is. Other cultures do much worse things-- there probably aren't many cliterectomies performed in the US (though if you read Ayaan Hirsi Ali, it happens on the kitchen tables of Holland, so I can't pretend it doesn't happen here). But I do think it's much more invasive than a haircut and parents should be more thoughtful about it than an aesthetic choice.

I have little girls and so we never discussed it with our extended family. But even if we had boys, I don't think we would have. It's not their decision at all. For me, as a new parent, one of the ways I had to grow was to start defining concrete boundaries with the extended family with the children. I seek their advice in a lot of situations, but only us parents decide.

It's of course different if you are religious. In that circumstance, God or G*d has declared that you should do this, and really then, you have no choice. But that is not the line of thought I see in my community.

All of this said, I do not think this is important enough to get wrapped up in, whichever way it goes. There are much more important choices as a parent.

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Post by Boijoy » Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:34 am

two more words. Sea Cucumber.
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Post by Deb Prothero » Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:00 am

Kinetic V

Congratulations on the impending birth of your son.

Recently I came across an academic study of the history of circumcision in the American medical community.

This is the short version: http://www.eskimo.com/~gburlin/mgm/facts.html

Without reference to the religions that make this a ritualistic ceremony for young boys, male circumcision was first brought in by 19th century doctors who decided that it was a good way to prevent masturbation in young children and this occurred in the English speaking West first.

The aesthetic and peer pressure arguments were developed afterward to support the practice.

$250 million is wasted on this practice every year in the US where 60.4% of male infants are circumcised. Globally only 20% of males have this done. In Australia its 15% and in Canada 20% where it is only done if medically necessary now.

When I read this report only a few months ago, I was shocked. I have two sons who are now grown adults. At the time of their births, it was common practice and the doctors didn't even ask, they just went ahead and did the operation.

I can still hear the piercing screams of both of them as this procedure was done just down the hall from my maternity bed.

The report at the link gives many medical reasons why this procedure is completely unnecessary in over 80% of male infants and gives many reasons why it can impair the child's natural development.

I was much too young to even know what was going on when my boys were born. Now I feel quite sick that this choice was taken from me and from them. With so much more information available about this now, I would not have allowed this to happen, if only I had known then what I know now. Those piercing screams haunt me.

This is a choice to make and I hope you will both take the time to read this and other scientific information available online. Make sure it's footnoted with references to specific studies or reports. As you say, the online information needs to be sorted out too.

Good luck in making the right choice for your family.

justfred
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Post by justfred » Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:19 am

My wife and I have discussed this too. She's Jewish (mostly non-practicing), I'm not. I'm cut.

I tend to believe that if that's the way we evolved, there's probably good reason for it, and we should leave well enough alone unless there's a medical necessity. And let the kid decide when he becomes an adult if he wants to modify his body.

I think the whole "looking at other kids in the locker room" and "not looking like dad" thing is way overhyped. As a kid, I rarely if ever saw other guys' tackle, my dad's maybe once, and generally not for long enough to consider it. Having to clean it for him when he's little and teach him to clean it seems a lot more awkward to me, but that's how parents have been doing it throughout history, so it can't be that bad.

I believe the standard in Europe and most of the rest of the world is now to not cut. What if you decide to move - will the kid be traumatized if he IS cut?

My wife votes cut. Because it "looks normal".

No matter what, the government should have little say in the matter other than advisement over current health practices - they certainly should leave the decision to the parents. That said, I don't believe such a plan - for the government to require such a procedure - would ever pass anyway, so the whole point of this thread is moot.

While we're at it, have you considered home birthing? I suggest seeing "The Business of Being Born." - it convinced me. Hospitals are unfriendly, filthy disgusting disease-ridden places, why would you want to spend so much more to have your kid born there when you can have them born at home in a happy friendly environment?
What goes around, comes around.

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