How would Treasure Island Work...

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How would Treasure Island Work...

Post by Guest » Thu Mar 04, 2004 7:27 am

How would BM be different if it were held at the old Navy base on Treasure Island half way across the Bay Bridge? How many would care? How many would notice?.

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Post by robotland » Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:40 am

Oh, great, let the Californians COMMUTE to Burning Man! Come on, at least meet all of us midwesterners ONE-TENTH of the way!!!
Howdy From Kalamazoo

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Post by Dan D. Lyon » Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:09 am

Interesting proposition. Treasure Island was created (by landfill - http://www.sfmuseum.net/hist5/treasis.html) for the 1939 Worlds Fair. I guess it since became a military base. It sure seems it would be a great place for a really serious wek-long burning man decompression-type event. There was a burning man featured artist, Charlie Gadekin and the Illumination Project that did a really cool installation there a few years back -- http://www.burningart.com/illum/done13.html
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Post by stuart » Fri Mar 05, 2004 12:07 pm

careful Ric, your agenda is showing again.

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Re: How would Treasure Island Work...

Post by Guest » Fri Mar 05, 2004 2:03 pm

Black Rock Ric wrote:How would BM be different if it were held at the old Navy base on Treasure Island half way across the Bay Bridge? How many would care? How many would notice?.
interesting proposition. having never been one for rhetorical questions, though, i'd like to turn this around.

so, ric...how do you think *your* experience at burningman would change if the event was held at treasure island?

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Well, Gen,

Post by Guest » Fri Mar 05, 2004 5:36 pm

No silt, no, dust, close to Starbucks, cooler, easier drive for ya'll, Won't have no honkin coal plant dumpin soot on your head.. Nice sailboats to watch. Sounds like a plan.[/img]

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Re: How would Treasure Island Work...

Post by Guest » Fri Mar 05, 2004 5:49 pm

genghis wrote:interesting proposition. having never been one for rhetorical questions, though, i'd like to turn this around.

so, ric...how do you think *your* experience at burningman would change if the event was held at treasure island?
Black Rock Ric wrote:No silt, no, dust, close to Starbucks, cooler, easier drive for ya'll, Won't have no honkin coal plant dumpin soot on your head.. Nice sailboats to watch. Sounds like a plan.
i didn't understand the "ya'll" part of that. the question was a serious one to you. compared to the last time you were at burningman, how would *your* experience change, if the event was held at treasure island, rather than at its current location?

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Cowboyesque-anthropological interest

Post by Guest » Sat Mar 06, 2004 7:24 pm

My interest in BM is characterized much as above. Aestheticly I would find it delightful to be at Treasure Island, it would be there, I would be here. I know folks that attend some are spiritual, some are partiers. I observe, Last time I was within the boundaries was pre fence. And I pay attention to those who think highly of it and those who don't. I have no problem with BM,, I do have a great problem with the location.
I have observed the metamorphisis of BM over the years. One aspect of BM I find curious is that Larry Harvey has created this ambience of a creative artistic sort of "free" society. Yet he personally pockets several million dollars from the three day event. For him it is a classic capitalist entreprenurial project. I cannot resist another ovine allusion,,, it appears he has successfully "pulled the wool over" the eyes of thousands. This weekend my daughter and I will take our horses. The mustangs Tizzy and Robinson Jeffers,, guess which is mine. We will ride up a fossil canyon 2 hours beyond the Playa. During the ice age this was the outlet to a now dry lake. In a nearby canyon we have found indian habitation caves. Our goal is to find others dating from the ice age, Pre Piaute,, Archaic Desert Culture...... Good living,, blazing sagebrush fire, icy nights.. stars like diamonds,,, and deep silence... I try to raise my kids right, shoot straight, ride good, tack without winding up in irons and try real hard to ignore the 21st century..

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Re: Cowboyesque-anthropological interest

Post by Guest » Sat Mar 06, 2004 8:30 pm

Black Rock Ric wrote:Good living,, blazing sagebrush fire, icy nights.. stars like diamonds,,, and deep silence... I try to raise my kids right, shoot straight, ride good, tack without winding up in irons and try real hard to ignore the 21st century..
all noble goals, and you have the right to pursue them. godspeed in your travels.

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Re: How would Treasure Island Work...

Post by Icepack » Sat Mar 06, 2004 8:43 pm

Black Rock Ric wrote:How would BM be different if it were held at the old Navy base on Treasure Island half way across the Bay Bridge? How many would care? How many would notice?.
One of the things that attracts me to BM is it's remote location. I also like that it is in the desert. Camping in the Bay area just wouldn't be the same.

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Re: How would Treasure Island Work...

Post by Eric » Sat Mar 06, 2004 10:47 pm

Black Rock Ric wrote:How would BM be different if it were held at the old Navy base on Treasure Island half way across the Bay Bridge? How many would care? How many would notice?.
Honestly?
It would suck.
Treasure Island is filled with development, there are thousands of people who live on it already, and, even worse- it's surrounded by about 10 million people. People who could get to it within about half an hour or so.
You think the "yahoo" problem is bad on the playa? Try it when there both Berkeley and Stanford are both than 45 minutes away, depending on traffic.

You seem to never have actually seen Treasure Island, or you would know just at a glance that there isn't enough undeveloped space on it to throw something like Burning Man.

I normally don't respond to anti-BM posts with agendas, but I thought I'd toss some reasonable facts into the equation.
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Re: How would Treasure Island Work...

Post by Eric » Sat Mar 06, 2004 10:53 pm

Eric wrote: and, even worse- it's surrounded by about 10 million people.
My bad. I should have said "about 7 million people".
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Post by Wind_Borne » Sun Mar 07, 2004 12:25 am

try real hard to ignore the 21st century..
Ric, I feel for you. And I'll tel you why: ignoring the 21st century is impossible.

And that applies double to western Nevada. I recently had the opportunity to study a map of the U.S. depicting population and development trends for the next 10 and 20 years. Far and away, the area facing the greatest growth in the whole U.S. is western Nevada.

If you want to escape progress, may I suggest moving to north-eastern Wyoming, western Alaska, or the Australian outback.
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I really do not understand

Post by Silver » Sun Mar 07, 2004 8:25 am

I cannot understand how anyone could consider Treasure Island a possible venue for Burning Man. Eric's comments about the yahoos was the first thing that came to mind. Admittly the fact that the highs in the bay area that time of year are only about 70 degrees would cut down on the nudity factor and after a couple of years the droolers would stop showing up. Of course every other nut case in Centeral California would still be headed our way.

One of the nice things about Burning Man is there a very high selection factor. It take effort and money and time to be there, each and every one of us goes to a lot of trouble to be part of this life. There is a sense of isolation and a sprit of 'we are all in this together'. Taking a cab to Burning Man and ordering takeout from Chinatown is not quite the same.
My grandfather tried to raise me as a Southern gentleman, that means that I can be a real SOB some of the time.

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Agenda

Post by Guest » Sun Mar 07, 2004 4:51 pm

Some of ya'll talk about an "agenda" well, everyone has an agenda, overt, covert, de facto, ip so facto.. The agenda of BM includes creating the third largest metropolitan area in Nevada in the middle of the wilderness. The agenda of the locals is to get as much money in those few days from people whom they basically despise. The agenda of Larry is to make a whale of a lot of money. My agenda is to get people to think of the true consequences of their thoughts and actions colloquially known as "chain pulling". To call going to BM "camping in the desert" would be like the 82nd Airborne Division calling their trip to Iraq "camping in the desert".

Maybe Treasure Island is not the right place,, Maybe the Sacramento Sam's Club parking lot, it is pretty big, hot enough for nudity, no dust,, handy for forgotten items..
In the meantime, the Coal fired power plant proposes to dump the equivalent of 142 large freight truck loads of particulates on the Black Rock Playa and surrounding countryside, each year.

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Post by Tancorix » Sun Mar 07, 2004 6:41 pm

Stereotyping sucks.
And fact checking is a good thing.
That is all.

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Post by Wind_Borne » Sun Mar 07, 2004 6:54 pm

The agenda of Larry is to make a whale of a lot of money.
Ric,

I realize that remark was intended to sow discontent. But look at the financials and do the math. Calculate the ticket revenues. Then subtract off the expenses, fees, and wages. If what's left is a "whale of a lot of money", then your sights are set rather low!
The agenda of the locals is to get as much money [as they can]
More power to them! Free enterprise: that's the American way! You believe in America, don't you, Ric? You're not some commie, are you?

I think I speak for my fellow burners when I say that we are proud to contribute to Gerlach's economy!
"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
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Re: Agenda

Post by Rob the Wop » Sun Mar 07, 2004 6:59 pm

Black Rock Ric wrote:Some of ya'll talk about an "agenda" well, everyone has an agenda, overt, covert, de facto, ip so facto.. The agenda of BM includes creating the third largest metropolitan area in Nevada in the middle of the wilderness. The agenda of the locals is to get as much money in those few days from people whom they basically despise. The agenda of Larry is to make a whale of a lot of money. My agenda is to get people to think of the true consequences of their thoughts and actions colloquially known as "chain pulling". To call going to BM "camping in the desert" would be like the 82nd Airborne Division calling their trip to Iraq "camping in the desert".

Maybe Treasure Island is not the right place,, Maybe the Sacramento Sam's Club parking lot, it is pretty big, hot enough for nudity, no dust,, handy for forgotten items..
In the meantime, the Coal fired power plant proposes to dump the equivalent of 142 large freight truck loads of particulates on the Black Rock Playa and surrounding countryside, each year.
Y'know allanon2, you aren't going to get any more sympathy by adopting a different sock puppet.
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Post by III » Sun Mar 07, 2004 7:05 pm

>>remote location

the thing i wonder about is why a huge number of people who go out to this remote location seem to try to make it as much like the city they just came from as possible.

that was always one of my bigger disappointments with the festival...
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Re: Agenda

Post by Tancorix » Sun Mar 07, 2004 8:02 pm

Rob the Wop wrote:Y'know allanon2, you aren't going to get any more sympathy by adopting a different sock puppet.
Look on the bright side, at least the above mentioned "sock" can type and communicates it's thoughts better. A2's posts are torturous to read through.

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Re: Agenda

Post by Icepack » Sun Mar 07, 2004 8:31 pm

[quote="Black Rock Ric"] To call going to BM "camping in the desert" would be like the 82nd Airborne Division calling their trip to Iraq "camping in the desert".

Sorry if you don't like what I said, but the only other environment I have camped in has been New England in the Spring/Summer/Fall. Trees, hills, and mosquitos is quite different from dust storms, playa dust, and a wide sky with a natural light show of stars. It's also a lot hotter on the playa during the day, and a lot more crowded. I didn't drive across the country to spend a week in an RV last year. I used the same tent I used for camping in Vermont and had a completely different experience with it. The wind was my enemy when I first arrived, but I adapted to it and learned to co-exist with it and finally I learned to appreciate it's presence.

There were many other joys too, but the "camping in the desert" was unique to Burning Man. Going to Playa Del Fuego would not be the same, would it? Of course not, and one reason would be the geological environment.

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Post by III » Sun Mar 07, 2004 9:47 pm

>>camping in the desert" was unique to Burning Man.

i'm assuming that there is a broad range of activvities covered under the term camping. burning man is certainly not the same as going to an rv park with full hookups, but along the continuum of stuff that constitutes camping, it's a lot closer to that than to, say, hiking the appalachian trail. (or even what yer average redneck dirtbiker does on the weekends).
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Re: Agenda

Post by technopatra » Sun Mar 07, 2004 10:02 pm

Black Rock Ric wrote:...The agenda of Larry is to make a whale of a lot of money.
Bwahaha! This one always cracks me up. (wipes tears)

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Re: Agenda

Post by Eric » Sun Mar 07, 2004 11:05 pm

Black Rock Ric wrote:The agenda of BM includes creating the third largest metropolitan area in Nevada in the middle of the wilderness.
Funny, I thought that sort of grew by default. I always thought the agenda was to create a different outlook on life. Silly me. The almost total lack of the normal things in a metropolitan area (electricity, water and sewage come to mind) should have clued me in to the fact that it was all about building a city.
The agenda of the locals is to get as much money in those few days from people whom they basically despise.
Damn greedy American capitalists.
The agenda of Larry is to make a whale of a lot of money.
Personally, I could care less if it was. I don't think it is, but I could really give a flying (insert favourite word here) if it was. He created an idea and a playground we like. We buy into it- literally. That's how the world works. If we didn't like what he has to offer, we wouldn't pay for it. Capitalism is clever that way- that whole "supply and demand" thing.
My agenda is to get people to think of the true consequences of their thoughts and actions colloquially known as "chain pulling".
To me, it seems your agenda is to keep the Black Rock desert as a private playground for you and your family, and not for anyone else. The true consequences of those thoughts and actions is to get a whole bunch of us to disagree with giving up our fun because you don't like it. It's a huge desert- explore another area of it that week and you won't even notice we're there.
To call going to BM "camping in the desert" would be like the 82nd Airborne Division calling their trip to Iraq "camping in the desert".
I don't call BM "camping". I call it going to Burning Man.
I don't call what the 82nd is doing "camping" either. I call that an injustice to them and their families.
In the meantime, the Coal fired power plant proposes to dump the equivalent of 142 large freight truck loads of particulates on the Black Rock Playa and surrounding countryside, each year.
So, why aren't you protesting that? If you used the brains you obviously have you would realize the Burning Man community would be your logical _allies_ in stopping it, not part of the problem. Most of us love nature and the outdoors and would love to stop such a power plant. I don't know enough about that issue to comment further though.

Just thoughts.

I'm done talking to the troll now.
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Post by Wind_Borne » Mon Mar 08, 2004 2:23 am

try real hard to ignore the 21st century.
.

Caution, Ric, that computer you're going online with may contain parts built in 21st century silicon foundries, utilizing microchips with micron-scale transistors designed by physicists using a 21st century understanding of quantum mechanics, and running software written in this century, too. Oh, and the fuel you use in your truck, it was mined and refined in the 21st century using 21st century technology. And the food you eat, it did not grow on the dry lake; some 21st century farmer grew it. And then he sold it on a 21st century commodities market. That food was stored and shipped to you using a 21st century automated distribution system. And then there's the clothes you wear... I could go on, but I think you see my point.
Many of those people have been there for generations.
Locals Only, eh? Well, hey, some of my ancestors have been on this continent for over 15,000 years. How many generations is that? 750! But it's OK; you may stay. But don't think you own the place!

BTW: Life is change and the appreciation of change. When things stop changing, you're dead.
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Great posts

Post by Guest » Mon Mar 08, 2004 6:45 am

First misconception; I tain't Allanon,, don't know him. I live and work in the Great Basin as a hunting guide. The playa itself is just a passing vista, the true beauty lies in the vast and empty lands beyond. Second misconception; Private playground for myself and other, last BLM visitor figures for Black Rock Desert 35,000 visitor per annum, of which 25,000 were BM. My family has 10,000 people? Third misconception; Larry don't make money; The figures are public.

Those of you who feel that the "camping" experience is wonderful, I have a challenge for you, this summer, take your rig, by yourself, drive onto the playa, by yourself, set out a tarp and a chair and a sleeping bag and sit or lie and watch the stars turn the great wheel around Polaris, listen to the silence so deep you can hear your nerves hum (except of course when a WP freigh rumbles by) If you need to bring a book, bring something by Robinson Jeffers, in fact I have a home work assignment for all of you. Read Mr. Jeffers, then re post your feelings about body packing the Black Rock.
And yes, the modern world does intrude its technology, but like the Kho-San who found great uses for a coke bottle that fell from an airplane, those uses are adaptable to ancient ways.

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Who Farted...

Post by Last Real Burner » Mon Mar 08, 2004 8:07 am

Why are you here, Black Rock Ric?
You sully the name of Ric, you diddly bastard.

Go away, and smell up some other BBS, Black Rock Farty.



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Post by III » Mon Mar 08, 2004 8:44 am

>>drive onto the playa, by yourself, set out a tarp and a chair and a sleeping bag and sit or lie and watch the stars turn the great wheel around Polaris, listen to the silence so deep you can hear your nerves hum

the tarp and the chair seem like overkill, and iit's really not all that silent out there. (at least, for me it's never been my nerves humming, but the quiet/distant sounds of nature that come out.)

yer still not making your point all that well.
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Re: Great posts

Post by Rob the Wop » Mon Mar 08, 2004 10:05 am

Black Rock Ric wrote: Those of you who feel that the "camping" experience is wonderful, I have a challenge for you, this summer, take your rig, by yourself, drive onto the playa, by yourself, set out a tarp and a chair and a sleeping bag and sit or lie and watch the stars turn the great wheel around Polaris, listen to the silence so deep you can hear your nerves hum (except of course when a WP freigh rumbles by)
Blah blah blah. Lived in the Mojave Desert about 30 miles from Death Valley for about 12 years. Subtract the rig, tarp, chair, and sleeping bag- add one towel (for a pillow) and a joint. We used to call it "getting high". Walk straight out of your back yard for a couple hours away from town during the summer nights. If you want even more solitude, take power line roads for 20 minutes (in a truck this time), then turn off somewhere and get away from the lines.

To hear "your nerves hum" you can find a nearby mine shaft, truck on down with a flashlight and candle, and turn off the light in one of the big caves. Bring a nice coat and towel.

What does this have to do with the fact that you don't want a large group of people "camping out" on a dry lake bed? Besides which, our version of "camping" makes most public campsites look like landfills.

This is another case of "not in my backyard"-itis. Would you be happier if we clear-cut a large area of woods in the mountains away from you? Not everyone at Burning Man is from the Bay area, y'know. I also disbelieve your assertion that everyone in Gerlach hates the attendees of Burning Man. Coming from a small desert town myself, I find folks don't mind a temporary change of pace every once in a while. I am also willing to bet you will find it really hard to find places in Neveda that would rather do without the tourism trade. I lived in Pahrump for a while and even they had a couple casinos.

Do you have the right to speak for the residents of Gerlach? Is your "better view" worth the annual loss of income that Gerlach has come to depend upon?

In my personal opinion, there is NO better place to hold an event like this than a dry lake bed. There is no other type of area in the US that is as deviod of life. Even Treasure island has plant life and small creatures, plus it's surrounded by marine life.

Alright, rant over.
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Post by stuart » Mon Mar 08, 2004 10:47 am

Yet he personally pockets several million dollars from the three day event
cites please

and
Those of you who feel that the "camping" experience is wonderful, I have a challenge for you, this summer, take your rig, by yourself, drive onto the playa, by yourself, set out a tarp and a chair and a sleeping bag and sit or lie and watch the stars turn the great wheel around Polaris, listen to the silence so deep you can hear your nerves hum
no thanks, sounds like it would be quite dull after the first night. I prefer burningin man. By the way, I never called it camping. But the way I relate to it seems like something you would not quite understand.

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