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Post by DVD Burner » Fri Jul 09, 2004 2:16 am

For the non belivers.

http://www.ericblumrich.com/thanks.html

Enjoy!
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Post by DVD Burner » Fri Jul 09, 2004 4:10 am

For anyone that does'nt belive how fucked up your government is and how fucked up Bush and the cronies are, read this. Fresh off the press today

Bush Military Service Files Were Destroyed -
Report
Fri Jul 9, 2004 04:11 AM ET


NEW YORK (Reuters) - The Pentagon says military records related to President Bush's service in the National Guard more than 30 years ago were inadvertently destroyed, The New York Times reported on Friday.
Payroll records of "numerous service members," including Bush, were ruined in 1996 and 1997 during a project to salvage deteriorating microfilm by the Defense Finance and Accounting Service, the newspaper said, citing the Pentagon.

Bush's whereabouts during his service in the National Guard during the Vietnam War have become an election-year issue, with some Democrats accusing him of shirking his duty.

The destroyed files cover three months of a period in 1972 and 1973 when Bush's claims of service in Alabama are in question, the newspaper said. No back-up paper copies of the records could be found, the Pentagon said in notices dated June 25, according to the Times.

The loss of the records was announced by the Defense Department's Office of Freedom of Information and Security Review in letters to the Times and other news organizations that for nearly half a year have sought Bush's complete service file, the newspaper reported.

In February, the White House released hundreds of pages of Bush's military records. Those records did not provide new evidence to place Bush in Alabama during the latter part of 1972, when some Democrats say he was basically absent without leave.

Dan Bartlett, the White House communications director who has said the released records confirmed the president's fulfillment of his National Guard commitment, did not return two calls for a response, the Times said.

© Reuters 2004. All Rights Reserved.
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Post by Badger » Fri Jul 09, 2004 4:12 am

I've often wondered if I made my smelly ass available to Mr. Buckley if he'd suck it.

On his sailboat.

or....

if he'd chew it like so much pabulum grazed from the green fields of his vineyard home overlooking the Cape.

Fuck him.

I'd rather wipe my ass with a chainsaw than give him his uppity Yankee pleasures.
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Post by Isotopia » Fri Jul 09, 2004 4:18 am

Grrrl, what the fuck?

Is this your idea of Maker's Mark haiku?

Stop. You're embarrassing us.

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Post by DVD Burner » Fri Jul 09, 2004 4:31 am

Badger wrote: I'd rather wipe my ass with a chainsaw than give him his uppity Yankee pleasures.
oooooo :x


That's really a good one. :o
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Post by Simply Joel » Fri Jul 09, 2004 5:54 am

DVD Burner wrote:
Badger wrote: I'd rather wipe my ass with a chainsaw than give him his uppity Yankee pleasures.
oooooo :x
That's really a good one. :o
i concur.
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Post by ebaynelson » Fri Jul 09, 2004 6:28 am

Since everyone seems to have their favorite op-ed columnist, let me introduce mine:

July 9, 2004
OP-ED COLUMNIST
Health Versus Wealth
By PAUL KRUGMAN

Will actual policy issues play any role in this election? Not if the White House can help it. But if some policy substance does manage to be heard over the clanging of conveniently timed terror alerts, voters will realize that they face some stark choices. Here's one of them: tax cuts for the very well-off versus health insurance.

John Kerry has proposed an ambitious health care plan that would extend coverage to tens of millions of uninsured Americans, while reducing premiums for the insured. To pay for that plan, Mr. Kerry wants to rescind recent tax cuts for the roughly 3 percent of the population with incomes above $200,000.

George Bush regards those tax cuts as sacrosanct. I'll talk about his health care policies, such as they are, in another column.

Considering its scope, Mr. Kerry's health plan has received remarkably little attention. So let me talk about two of its key elements.

First, the Kerry plan raises the maximum incomes under which both children and parents are eligible to receive benefits from Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program. This would extend coverage to many working-class families, who often fall into a painful gap: they earn too much money to qualify for government help, but not enough to pay for health insurance. As a result, the Kerry plan would probably end a national scandal, the large number of uninsured American children.

Second, the Kerry plan would provide "reinsurance" for private health plans, picking up 75 percent of the medical bills exceeding $50,000 a year. Although catastrophic medical expenses strike only a tiny fraction of Americans each year, they account for a sizeable fraction of health care costs.

By relieving insurance companies and H.M.O.'s of this risk, the government would drive down premiums by 10 percent or more.

This is a truly good idea. Our society tries to protect its members from the consequences of random misfortune; that's why we aid the victims of hurricanes, earthquakes and terrorist attacks. Catastrophic health expenses, which can easily drive a family into bankruptcy, fall into the same category. Yet private insurers try hard, and often successfully, to avoid covering such expenses. (That's not a moral condemnation; they are, after all, in business.)

All this does is pass the buck: in the end, the Americans who can't afford to pay huge medical bills usually get treatment anyway, through a mixture of private and public charity. But this happens only after treatments are delayed, families are driven into bankruptcy and insurers spend billions trying not to provide care.

By directly assuming much of the risk of catastrophic illness, the government can avoid all of this waste, and it can eliminate a lot of suffering while actually reducing the amount that the nation spends on health care.

Still, the Kerry plan will require increased federal spending. Kenneth Thorpe of Emory University, an independent health care expert who has analyzed both the Kerry and Bush plans, puts the net cost of the plan to the federal government at $653 billion over the next decade. Is that a lot of money?

Not compared with the Bush tax cuts: the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities estimates that if these cuts are made permanent, as the administration wants, they will cost $2.8 trillion over the next decade.

The Kerry campaign contends that it can pay for its health care plan by rolling back only the cuts for taxpayers with incomes above $200,000. The nonpartisan Tax Policy Center, which has become the best source for tax analysis now that the Treasury Department's Office of Tax Policy has become a propaganda agency, more or less agrees: it estimates the revenue gain from the Kerry tax plan at $631 billion over the next decade.

What are the objections to the Kerry plan? One is that it falls far short of the comprehensive overhaul our health care system really needs. Another is that by devoting the proceeds of a tax-cut rollback to health care, Mr. Kerry fails to offer a plan to reduce the budget deficit. But on both counts Mr. Bush is equally, if not more, vulnerable. And Mr. Kerry's plan would help far more people than it would hurt.

If we ever get a clear national debate about health care and taxes, I don't see how President Bush will win it.
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Post by DVD Burner » Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:17 am

ebaynelson wrote:Since everyone seems to have their favorite op-ed columnist, let me introduce mine:
Op Ed's? I dont use OpEd's. Are'nt they just other peoples editorial opinions? Nothing factual there.

Hey,

Why is the commission calling what the CIA did "failures" instead of calling it what it is.....A BIG FAT FUCKING LIE. Is it a state of politeness, or a state of denial? which is it?

And while I'm in the politics area, any opinions about the international court stating today that the wall Isreal is building is against international law?
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Post by DVD Burner » Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:25 am

Oh I forgot that Isreal has to pay the PLAISTINIANS back for thier land.


What does Liz-Non-wiz have to say about that?
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Post by Simply Joel » Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:31 am

DVD Burner wrote:
ebaynelson wrote:Since everyone seems to have their favorite op-ed columnist, let me introduce mine:
Op Ed's? I dont use OpEd's. Are'nt they just other peoples editorial opinions? Nothing factual there.
What?
:roll:
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Post by ebaynelson » Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:36 am

Simply Joel wrote:
DVD Burner wrote:
ebaynelson wrote:Since everyone seems to have their favorite op-ed columnist, let me introduce mine:
Op Ed's? I dont use OpEd's. Are'nt they just other peoples editorial opinions? Nothing factual there.
What?
:roll:
Um, I'll second that...

Regarding the wall - I don't know what to do about Israel and Palestine. All I know is that I can't stand Sharon. Arafat didn't win the Nobel Peace Prize for nothing, and now we've hung him out to dry.
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Post by DVD Burner » Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:37 am

Simply Joel wrote:
DVD Burner wrote:
ebaynelson wrote:Since everyone seems to have their favorite op-ed columnist, let me introduce mine:
Op Ed's? I dont use OpEd's. Are'nt they just other peoples editorial opinions? Nothing factual there.
What?
:roll:
:lol:
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Post by Simply Joel » Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:41 am

DVD Burner wrote:
Simply Joel wrote:
DVD Burner wrote: Op Ed's? I dont use OpEd's. Are'nt they just other peoples editorial opinions? Nothing factual there.
What?
:roll:
:lol:
you have way too much fun at my expense.
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Post by DVD Burner » Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:57 am

ebaynelson wrote: Regarding the wall - I don't know what to do about Israel and Palestine. All I know is that I can't stand Sharon. Arafat didn't win the Nobel Peace Prize for nothing, and now we've hung him out to dry.
Well looks like either way the "Camp Israel is looking for participants, sound system, djs" thread will never bring up the facts posted here nor recognise any other facts given elsewhere and will forever fight in that thread as in real life. Will that distain carry on to the playa?
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Post by Simply Joel » Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:05 am

Looking Beyond Charisma
By BOB HERBERT

At some point, if we're sane, we'll get past the explosion of superficiality that has accompanied John Kerry's selection of John Edwards as his running mate.

Right now we're consumed with who has charisma and who doesn't, and such compelling matters as whether the candidates' wives get along.

"Do they really like each other?" asked a breathless, straight-faced TV reporter, referring to Teresa Heinz Kerry and Elizabeth Edwards. Mr. Kerry himself contributed immeasurably to the foolishness by happily proclaiming that in addition to his team's grand vision and bold ideas, "We've got better hair."

One of the more disturbing things about our presidential elections is the extent to which they can turn on criteria more suitable to high school campaigns. He's cute. Would you look at the way she dresses?

Abe Lincoln, who was decidedly not cute, and F.D.R., with his wheelchair and Eleanor, wouldn't stand a chance in the current atmosphere.

When we finally get serious, we'll see that we're facing one of the most important elections in American history. The nation is locked in a war in Iraq that we don't know how to win and don't know how to end. And the White House sent another tremor of fear through the country yesterday when it announced, with its usual absence of details, that Al Qaeda may try to disrupt the election.

Domestically there are two very divergent paths looming on such issues as the economy and jobs, taxes, health care, Social Security and government support for education. It is in this area that the differences between the two major parties are starkest, and as the campaign unfolds it's likely that the clearest evidence of the divide will come not from the top of the respective tickets, but from John Edwards and Dick Cheney.

This could be the most interesting fight of the campaign.

Dick Cheney believes, and has acknowledged (which is rare), that one of the main reasons for cutting taxes is to starve the government of resources. In an interview published in The New Yorker in May 2001, the vice president said, "If we collect those taxes, government'll spend 'em."

"So to some extent," he added, "by preventing government from collecting taxes that it currently has no use for, we avoid a situation in which we collect them and spend them and put them into the baseline to become a permanent part of the government."

That's a statement of values from a man who is proud of his hard-right political credentials. According to Time magazine, "The Washington Post once referred to Cheney the congressman as a `moderate,' prompting him to order an aide to call the paper's editors and `suggest they look at my voting record.' "

As we've learned, there was nothing moderate about the Bush-Cheney tax cuts. They've transformed the Clinton-Gore surpluses into staggering budget deficits. And there was very little that was moderate about Mr. Cheney's voting record as a congressman from Wyoming. He opposed federal funding for abortion, even in cases of rape or incest. He voted against funding for Head Start, against subsidizing school lunches for poor children, against aid to college students and against the Older Americans Act, which offered nutrition and other services to the elderly.

"Cheney's voting record was slightly more conservative than mine," said Newt Gingrich a few years ago, "but his style was not as confrontational."

Mr. Cheney's positions on some issues have no doubt evolved since the 1980's, but he has not undergone any transformation of values and still considers himself a "hard-liner." In some ways he is more of an embodiment of the Bush administration than the president himself.

Senator Edwards is as straightforward as the vice president about his own views and values, which can fairly be called populist. Mr. Edwards objects to what he calls the "two Americas," and believes government has an obligation to try to maximize opportunities for everyone. "We will say no," he says, "to kids going hungry, to the kids who don't have the clothes to keep them warm, and no forever to any American working full time and living in poverty."

This will not be an election between tweedledum and tweedledee. Charisma and hairstyles aside, by November it should be apparent that voters will have a clear and unambiguous choice about the direction this nation is to travel over the next several years.


Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company
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Post by Rob the Wop » Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:46 am

DVD Burner wrote: And while I'm in the politics area, any opinions about the international court stating today that the wall Isreal is building is against international law?
This is about the only damn thing that will work at this stage IMO. Seperate the two factions with a clear cut divider for about 50-100 years, then start rebuilding and tear the wall down. Right now nothing will be accomplished as long as the cycle of terrorist/Isreal retaliation continues. The terrorists stand to lose when peace happens, so why ever stop? Isreal will not just stand there and take hits, so that starts the cycle anew.

A long cooling time of near complete seperation with clearly defined borders is required now. Peace and cooperation can come later.
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Post by DVD Burner » Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:48 am

Rob the Wop wrote: This is about the only damn thing that will work at this stage IMO. Seperate the two factions with a clear cut divider for about 50-100 years, then start rebuilding and tear the wall down. Right now nothing will be accomplished as long as the cycle of terrorist/Isreal retaliation continues. The terrorists stand to lose when peace happens, so why ever stop? Isreal will not just stand there and take hits, so that starts the cycle anew.

A long cooling time of near complete seperation with clearly defined borders is required now. Peace and cooperation can come later.
This of course includes paying for the land?
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hmmmmmmmm???????

Post by Simply Joel » Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:59 am

Paying for the land?

I would say the land has been paid for by the international community, many times over, in actual funds and patience (vague reference to not making the region a radioactive glass parking lot).

I concur with Rob in that lasting peace comes over generations of change... (ie the journry of thousand miles begins with one step)

and... i am curious about comments made that are clearly "isolationist" when referring to Iraq, yet when Israel comes up... that same isolationism is not applied... at least that is the way it looks from my perspective...

and... where are the feminists here? where are the demands for women's rights in all of the Middle East??? the silence is eerily deafening.
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Post by Rian Jackson » Fri Jul 09, 2004 11:05 am

[color] Arafat didn't win the Nobel Peace Prize for nothing, and now we've hung him out to dry. [/color]
i'm sorry. arafat is a tool. arafat miskin, (arafat, poor thing.) the israelis imprisioned everybody else who could have been an effective leader and negotiator.

arafat just endorsed a jewish state.

traitor.

i shouldn't say that. he's my adopted grandfather or something. ugh.

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Re: hmmmmmmmm???????

Post by DVD Burner » Fri Jul 09, 2004 11:05 am

Simply Joel wrote:Paying for the land?

I would say the land has been paid for by the international community, many times over, in actual funds and patience (vague reference to not making the region a radioactive glass parking lot).

I concur with Rob in that lasting peace comes over generations of change... (ie the journry of thousand miles begins with one step)

and... i am curious about comments made that are clearly "isolationist" when referring to Iraq, yet when Israel comes up... that same isolationism is not applied... at least that is the way it looks from my perspective...

and... where are the feminists here? where are the demands for women's rights in all of the Middle East??? the silence is eerily deafening.

I have no idea what you are talking about with the "isolationist"
but anyway,
seems the rest of the world disagrees with you and Isreal when it comes to the Palistiniane land, Yes Palistinian land:



07-09) 09:51 PDT JERUSALEM (AP) --

Palestinians called Friday's decision by the International Court of Justice on the massive West Bank wall "historic," while Israel rejected the world court's authority in judging the matter.

Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat and Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia hailed the court's ruling even before it was official as details leaked out ahead of time.

"The international high court decided clearly today that this racist wall is illegal to the root and Israel should stop building it and take down what has already been built of this wall. We welcome this decision," Qureia said.

"This is a historic day and a historic decision," he said.

The court in The Netherlands ruled that Israel's planned 425-mile-long barrier in the West Bank violates international law and urged the United Nations to take action to stop its construction.

It dismissed Israel's arguments that the barrier was essential for its security and said the system of walls and fences went too far in infringing on the freedom of the Palestinians.

Israel also was ordered to pay reparations to Palestinians harmed by the barrier and return land seized to construct it.

The court's advisory opinions are non-binding but bear moral, historic and political weight, and they can be the basis for U.N. action.

Israel, which did not send any senior officials to the Hague, has said the court's ruling will not have any bearing on its decisions.

"The International Court in The Hague has no authority to deal with disputes between Israel and the Palestinians," Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Jonathan Peled said.

Arafat, speaking to reporters as he met with Palestinian youths, said the Palestinian leadership was meeting to discuss its next steps.

He called the court's decision "a victory for justice in the land of peace."

Though the ruling is only advisory, Arafat compared it to the international will that led to the fall of the Berlin wall in 1989. "This wall will be removed to build our own state," he said confidently.

The judges were unexpectedly united in backing the decisions, by a vote of 14-1 for most paragraphs, with only the American judge dissenting. Israel maintains the barrier is needed to protect its cities from Palestinian suicide bombers, but Palestinians consider it a land grab.

The court dismissed Israel's objections that the U.N. General Assembly acted irregularly in asking the court for an advisory opinion. It also rebuffed Israel's argument -- supported by the United States and several European countries -- the court should refrain from interfering because the issue was political, not legal, and could disrupt Mideast peace efforts.

The court's opinion adds international pressure to stop construction of the complex of towering concrete walls, razor-wire fences, trenches and watch towers. About a fourth has been completed so far, roughly along the pre-1967 border but with many dips into the West Bank.

Armed with the ruling, the Palestinians want the U.N. General Assembly to demand Israel dismantle the barrier. If Israel refuses, the Palestinians want the Security Council to insist -- something that could draw a U.S. veto.

"We hope the United States today will see to it that they will work to have Israel comply with the (court's) resolution," Palestinian Cabinet Minister Saeb Erekat said.

Demonstrators turned out Friday near Jerusalem for and against the barrier.

A banner where hundreds were gathering in the West Bank town of al-Ram, near Ramallah, read: "The Israeli wall, longer and higher than Berlin, but just as disgusting."

"It's a great decision. We are thrilled. It very clearly delegitimizes the wall and demands that it be pulled down," said Jamal Juma, coordinator of a Palestinian group called The Anti-apartheid Wall Campaign.

Only six miles away, a few dozen Israelis gathered by a concrete section of the fence on the outskirts of Jerusalem, holding pictures and banners of loved ones who were victims of Palestinian attacks. They waved Israeli flags, and displayed a large banner reading: "Fence out terrorism."

The Israeli-Arab Hadash party also filed a no-confidence motion Friday against the government over the security fence. Such motions are common, and it wasn't expected to get much support.

Violence also continued Friday. A Palestinian threw a hand grenade toward Israeli soldiers who had asked him to stop for inspection at a main junction near the Gaza town of Beit Hanoun, but nobody was injured, the Israeli army spokesman's office said. The Palestinian escaped after an exchange of gunfire, the military said.

Ambulances carrying the bodies of six of seven people killed in clashes the day before into Beit Hanoun for funerals came under Israeli fire, witnesses said. The ambulances changed their course and later entered for the burials.

Elsewhere in Gaza, the Israeli military said two soldiers were wounded after Palestinians fired anti-tank missiles at their patrol near Rafah.
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Post by stuart » Fri Jul 09, 2004 11:19 am

Well looks like either way the "Camp Israel is looking for participants, sound system, djs" thread will never bring up the facts posted here nor recognise any other facts given elsewhere and will forever fight in that thread as in real life. Will that distain carry on to the playa?

why the fuck should they? All they want is a culturally based theme camp. They don't want a political debate. Just like the rest of us, they just want to party on the playa with like minded folk. There wil be no disdain unless you choose to bring it to them. For fucks sake, did anyone protest the freakin Irish bars last year? Was there a fucking orangemen parade? Rangers vs Celtic broadcast?

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Post by Simply Joel » Fri Jul 09, 2004 11:25 am

stuart wrote:
Well looks like either way the "Camp Israel is looking for participants, sound system, djs" thread will never bring up the facts posted here nor recognise any other facts given elsewhere and will forever fight in that thread as in real life. Will that distain carry on to the playa?

why the fuck should they? All they want is a culturally based theme camp. They don't want a political debate. Just like the rest of us, they just want to party on the playa with like minded folk. There wil be no disdain unless you choose to bring it to them. For fucks sake, did anyone protest the freakin Irish bars last year? Was there a fucking orangemen parade? Rangers vs Celtic broadcast?
stuart, i concur with your points... additionally, i believe you give an awful lot of credit to your burning man bretheren for being historically aware.
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Post by DVD Burner » Fri Jul 09, 2004 11:25 am

stuart wrote:
Well looks like either way the "Camp Israel is looking for participants, sound system, djs" thread will never bring up the facts posted here nor recognise any other facts given elsewhere and will forever fight in that thread as in real life. Will that distain carry on to the playa?

why the fuck should they? All they want is a culturally based theme camp. They don't want a political debate. Just like the rest of us, they just want to party on the playa with like minded folk. There wil be no disdain unless you choose to bring it to them. For fucks sake, did anyone protest the freakin Irish bars last year? Was there a fucking orangemen parade? Rangers vs Celtic broadcast?
I'm sure you are not understanding how Lizwiz offended so let me reiterate:

When she posted
lizwiz wrote:Jewish? Israeli? Come join our Camp!

The purpose of the camp is to promote Jewish Awareness to the Burning Man community at large and to provide a place for Jews to gather.
She turned it into a political stage. Plain and simple, then pushed the dagger into the topic by stating:
lizwiz wrote:
There is no such thing as palestinians today. There are Israelis, there are Jordanians, and there are arabs.
she dug her own grave.
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Post by Rob the Wop » Fri Jul 09, 2004 11:30 am

DVD Burner wrote:Oh I forgot that Isreal has to pay the PLAISTINIANS back for thier land.
So the Paelstinians always owned Israel? Funny, I thought it changed hands between Jewish, Roman, Muslim, and Christians over the last 3,000 years. Matter of fact, I thought that the various Muslim empire (Caliphates, Ottoman, etc.) have been tossing out the years for quite a while. Or is it only the last 50 years that count?
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Post by DVD Burner » Fri Jul 09, 2004 11:34 am

Rob the Wop wrote: So the Paelstinians always owned Israel? Funny, I thought it changed hands between Jewish, Roman, Muslim, and Christians over the last 3,000 years. Matter of fact, I thought that the various Muslim empire (Caliphates, Ottoman, etc.) have been tossing out the years for quite a while. Or is it only the last 50 years that count?
well this would be a good start:
The court in The Netherlands ruled that Israel's planned 425-mile-long barrier in the West Bank violates international law and urged the United Nations to take action to stop its construction.

It dismissed Israel's arguments that the barrier was essential for its security and said the system of walls and fences went too far in infringing on the freedom of the Palestinians.

Israel also was ordered to pay reparations to Palestinians harmed by the barrier and return land seized to construct it.
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Post by Rian Jackson » Fri Jul 09, 2004 11:41 am


This is about the only damn thing that will work at this stage IMO. Seperate the two factions with a clear cut divider for about 50-100 years, then start rebuilding and tear the wall down.
i think you might feel differently if the houses and lands were yours that were being torn down.

besides, the state of things, IMHO, is this: the older and middle generations remember working with Israelis, and the Israelis working with Palestinians. Many speak on it with some kindness. The newer generation is a generation of the Intifadas, and have not known the kind of life their parents did. They don't have that basis of working with the 'other.' So as time goes by, and more Palestinians are killed off, ithe chances of actual reconciliation diminish.

As far as viability for Palestinian communities, I would point you toward the book 'Stop the Wall' which has lots of great scientific studies to show you what a bantustan horror you are talking about.

a one state solution, which most people have given up hope for, is the closest thing to justice we could have. one person, one vote, regardless of the demographics.
Right now nothing will be accomplished as long as the cycle of terrorist/Isreal retaliation continues. The terrorists stand to lose when peace happens, so why ever stop? Isreal will not just stand there and take hits, so that starts the cycle anew.

.
it's true that when there is a bombing, or attempted bombing, there are harsh repercussions on the communities (known as colelctive punishment, illegal under Geneva conventions, i believe.) However, in nearly every situation for which i have the particulars, attacks into Israel are made in direct relatiation for personal loss. One of the kids who they caught last March - remember hearing about the 15 years olds who were supposedly *sent*? - was the cousin of a good friend of mine who was killed a few weeks before. Jihad Titti, in retaliation for his brother's assassination... the list goes on. On the other hand, Israeli military operations are frequently carried out without anything to trigger them, but to instill fear in the communities and wreak havoc. And before you ask, no, i don't have the inside scoop on army motives - but you can tell when there is a purpose. If they are just stirring the shit (which frequently happens when there have not been enough 'terrorist' attacks to 'warrant' military action), they leave after shooting some kids in the head. If there is a purpose, they will lock down curfew, search house to house, and stay for days, in general. You'll also find that, in general, though it is reported that Palestinians break cease-fires, it's rarely true. The major cease fire (sorry, can't remember a date for ya) of this Intifada was broken when the IDF made a raid into Askar Refugee Camp outside of Nablus. I know they demolished houses, i believe there were fatalities.


As far as your 'terrorists have nothing to gain from peace' comment - well, that's basically ignorant bullshit. Because the vast majority of the people you would refer to as terrorists want only a few things - their land, their freedom, and their lives. If there is a JUST peace, then they will gladly lay down their weapons, open a shop, drive a taxi. I'm sure there are a handful that are so jaded and so destroyed by occupation that they might not agree, but i have complete confidence to tell you that you are wrong.

Now, you can argue all you want that the above is a biased account and i will grant you that. But most of it is well supported fact. Sources are a mixture of well respected academic texts, first hand knowledge, and second hand accounts from those who have survived all of this.

Rian Jackson
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IJC Ruling

Post by Rian Jackson » Fri Jul 09, 2004 11:46 am

And while I'm in the politics area, any opinions about the international court stating today that the wall Isreal is building is against international law?
To be expected. Everyone knew the ruling would come down that way. However, the IJC has no power to enforce it. It really won't make much difference in Israel's policy.

Israel has been under mounting international pressures for years, but the combination of arrogance and US support has kept them from changing their ways in any significant, positive ways.

What will be interesting is to watch the hunger strike/fasting by, i believe, a Palestinian Knesset member.

The one thing that I know has helped is constant, non-violent community resistance. It’s actually changed the course of the wall, though not without great sacrifice.

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DVD Burner
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Post by DVD Burner » Fri Jul 09, 2004 11:48 am

You know something Rian,

The ones that want the plonker are the ones that dont want to hear what you cowboy and definately I and others have to say.

I myself will never use the plonker. :lol:
https://www.facebook.com/NeXTCODER

Simply Joel
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Post by Simply Joel » Fri Jul 09, 2004 12:05 pm

DVD Burner wrote:You know something Rian,

The ones that want the plonker are the ones that dont want to hear what you cowboy and definately I and others have to say.

I myself will never use the plonker. :lol:
raise your arms to save your watch, 'cause your boots are already gone....
Democrats... snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, daily!


slap my salmon, baby

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stuart
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Post by stuart » Fri Jul 09, 2004 1:26 pm

hey DVD

nice revisionist history there

lets exaimine
Jewish? Israeli? Come join our Camp!

The purpose of the camp is to promote Jewish Awareness to the Burning Man community at large and to provide a place for Jews to gather.
now, lets follow badgers plan and sub a few words
Gay? Bi? Come join our Camp!

The purpose of the camp is to promote Homosexual Awareness to the Burning Man community at large and to provide a place for Gays to gather.

wow, so political! So terribly offensive!

now, I am not denying that bullshit comment about how there aint no palestinians but the record clearly shows that it was YOU GUYS who fired off the first salvo. YOU turned it into a political stage. As a matter of fact, you took away HER cultural stage and made it into YOUR political stage.

despite what you might think about the actions of the ruling class in Israel (keep in mind that it is an ethnic minority who run the country) you would seek to deny someone the right to peacably assemble around a cultural/religious bond. That makes you a fucking 1st amendmant denier. Shameful.

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