is The Man still meaningful?

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:01 am

My first night at burning man, in 1999, I was drunk on 3 natural ices and 24 hours of no sleep. After climbing the hay bales, sitting at his feet, I felt a religious experience. Does that still happen?

St.Peter · Post by **St.Peter** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:51 am

I think your asking the wrong question shouldn't it be "is burning man still meaningful to you"

I could ask a friend who has come to burning man for many years and he would say yes (for the most part)

then on the other hand you could go ask a frat boy and they would most likely not know what to say (besides tits and beer)

I like to believe that yes its still meaningful but its only as meaningful as everyone makes it.

been helping theme camps in the area since 2000ish first year 2006 and still going every year

I camp with "Campoline" and every year we have had someone who has never jumped on a trampoline get the chance to and this last year there was a young boy who camped across the way from us and we made him a carpet to go from the trampolines in are camp to his camp on the other side of the street

Captain Goddammit · Post by **Captain Goddammit** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:34 am

Yeah I remember when the man was on hay bales... it seemed so much more accessible.
To me the man needs to be there but the actual burning of it doesn't mean that much and has been overshadowed by the temple burn since about 2003 or 2004.

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:40 am

I tire of these constant re-examinations of the "meaning" of the man. Even if he's just a pretext for everything else, so what? And if it's not worth it to you to go, so what? I'm not really getting all hot under my collar about christmas--paid day off and I can putter in my studio, nice. Ask the hordes of people taking pictures of their children on santa's lap if christmas is meaningful.

justfred · Post by **justfred** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:24 am

theCryptofishist wrote:I tire of these constant re-examinations of the "meaning" of the man. Even if he's just a pretext for everything else, so what? And if it's not worth it to you to go, so what? I'm not really getting all hot under my collar about christmas--paid day off and I can putter in my studio, nice. Ask the hordes of people taking pictures of their children on santa's lap if christmas is meaningful.

Hotei lived in the T'ang dynasty. He had no desire to call himself a Zen master or to gather many disciples about him. Instead he walked the streets with a big sack into which he would put gifts of candy, fruit, or doughnuts. These he would give to children who gathered around him to play. He established a kindergarten of the streets.
Whenever he met a Zen devotee he would extend his hand and say: "Give me one penny." And if anyone asked him to return to a temple to teach, again he would reply: "Give me one penny."
Once as he was about his play-work another Zen master happened along and inquired: "What is the significance of Zen?"
Hotei immediately plopped his sack down on the ground in silent answer.
"Then," asked the other, "what is the actualization of Zen?"
At once Hotei swung the sack over his shoulder and continued on his way.

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:44 pm

I

theCryptofishist wrote:I tire of these constant re-examinations of the "meaning" of the man. Even if he's just a pretext for everything else, so what? And if it's not worth it to you to go, so what? I'm not really getting all hot under my collar about christmas--paid day off and I can putter in my studio, nice. Ask the hordes of people taking pictures of their children on santa's lap if christmas is meaningful.

The "meaning" of the man is Larry's thing. I don't care to know. BUT, the Man used to be the subconscious center of the city. I just want to know if anyone really cares about its prescence, beyond just a namesake, and a reason to get drunk or high, after he burns. I'm just starting to wonder if the festival has jumped track. If you never rode the travelling tiki bar, you probably couldn't tell me something about Burning Man I didn't already know. But does the Man hold any significance to you? Just asking...

klondike_bar · Post by **klondike_bar** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 11:31 pm

09 was my first year, and i found no true 'connection" to the man. Sure hes massive, glowy, and goes down in a big ball of pyrotechnics, but that wasnt why i was there.

I spent a week in the middle of nowhere, halfway across the continent, because of what SURROUNDS the man. The man serves as a central pillar, the final destination for thousands of burners who seek thier own kind of freedom

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:32 am

That's what I kinda figured. I don't go to Burning Man, just to see the man, but he is a structure I feel I should visit. I see a lot of original ethos being lost by selfish brats going to "just another party." ...around the man....Maybe I'm going overboard here, but I think the idea's being redefined and the mission...if their ever was one, failing. Maybe Disney SHOULD buy BM!

I do understand how difficult it must be to connect with the man, when you can't touch him.

Captain Goddammit · Post by **Captain Goddammit** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:16 am

klondike_bar wrote: I spent a week in the middle of nowhere, halfway across the continent, because of what SURROUNDS the man. The man serves as a central pillar, the final destination for thousands of burners who seek thier own kind of freedom

Yes! That sums it up perfectly. At this point, in my opinion, they could stop putting up an actual "Man" and just have Black Rock City and it would be all the same to me.

However, there is one other point: the Man serves as a great nighttime navigational aid.

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:27 am

From an effigy on the beach to a traffic beacon. *sigh*

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:32 pm

Hey, it happened to Jesus!

oneeyeddick · Post by **oneeyeddick** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:19 pm

Makes me want to pass out some collection plates to all those folks sitting up front during the Manburn.

Elorrum · Post by **Elorrum** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:06 pm

I like the man. I like burning the man. I feel like it gets rid of last year, and starts a new one. I like to see everyone walking out there, and the sense of anticipation, like Christmas morning used to have. So many people, one big thing we all look at. Holy cow, now that's a campfire!

penguin · Post by **penguin** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:31 pm

I can't speak for anyone else, and I have no clue as to what the "man" means (did mean, will mean) to anyone other than myself, but to me it feels as if the "man" has become the commercial aspect of the festival. The "tourists" come to see the man. If you want to be moved you go to the temple. With the temple burning after the man it is now really the "end" point of the festival, and the year. The man is the iconic symbol, the temple is the soul.

But to the question posed: Yes, I think the man is still meaningful. The man represents why everyone is there, without the man it wouldn't be the Burning Man Festival. But, he's not the only reason people come any longer.

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:06 pm

penguin wrote:I can't speak for anyone else, and I have no clue as to what the "man" means (did mean, will mean) to anyone other than myself, but to me it feels as if the "man" has become the commercial aspect of the festival. The "tourists" come to see the man. If you want to be moved you go to the temple. With the temple burning after the man it is now really the "end" point of the festival, and the year. The man is the iconic symbol, the temple is the soul.

But to the question posed: Yes, I think the man is still meaningful. The man represents why everyone is there, without the man it wouldn't be the Burning Man Festival. But, he's not the only reason people come any longer.

I think the nudity and expectation of sex, is really the commercial aspect. Which in a way is a good thing. Soo much disapointment. The temple burn is a perfect end to the festival. I was personally offended...and we need not go into that...when that little fucker burned the man prematurely.
The Man was the first thing I went to, on my first night. Now that I think back, that feeling set the stage for the whole week. I think he needs to be back on hay bales.

Post by **AntiM** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:34 am

The Man is a pile of sticks. An expensive, artful pile of sticks, but sticks nonetheless. It isn't even a "he", it is an inanimate object.

I was never there for the haybales, but yes, I've helped build effigies in Utah. The current experience of The Man compared to a regional effigy such as our Gingerbread Man or White Rabbit is indeed less immediate and personal. However, I don't assign "meaning" to the sticks, I assign meaning to my interactions with the people and the art. I like the Man, I like the burn, sure I dislike the piles of bikes and the pee spots, but it is what it is. Different, even from 2001. But that's alright by me. It is not staying home. And it sure as hell isn't Disneyland quite yet.

As for the tourists, they are trying to assign meaning based on faulty second-hand assumptions rather than direct experience. The event is large enough I can navigate around them for the most part. Much of my quality time on the playa is spent right in front of my own camp!

Change is inevitable. The trick is finding what remains meaningful to you. Like panning for gold. That flash in the pan may be more worthwhile the harder you have to work for it. Or not.

TomServo · Post by **TomServo** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:53 pm

Meaning schmeaning... and yeah change is inevitable...but so long as a wooden effigy looks over BRC, its still burning man. I've accepted the change..and am wayyyy less charitable than before. And more violent, when my belongings are fucked with. Change happens. Was simply curious if the man still earns any reverence from participants...newbie or not.

gaminwench · Post by **gaminwench** » Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:33 pm

My first year was the year before the first Temple, but the first year David Best made an installation... that was also the year of Pepe's last Opera, the amazing 3 Masks art piece, the book burning, and the plastic chapel... all of those things meant more to me than the Man (on haybales, which was cool and intimate, but...) for various reasons.
Since then, in my world, the Temple has always held the emotional/spiritual/connectivity of the Black Rock ethos, a place of contemplation and letting go, silence within the maelstrom;
while the Man is, for me, a symbol of "The Man" and the crazed madness that ensues when we elevate "him" according to our own lofty expectations, then watch "him/them" explode in a cacophany of light and sound...

To each his own, your mileage may vary...

theCryptofishist · Post by **theCryptofishist** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:09 am

Sorry if I came across as harsh. It seemed like it was going to be one of those whining for hte old days threads.

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:39 am

There's no assigned or fixed meaning to teh Burn.

This is the beauty of it. It is a vessel into which the celebrant doth pour meaning of his own brewing. Yea, verily!

1durphul · Post by **1durphul** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:14 pm

For me personally the burning of The Man symbolizes our self destruction at our most triumphant moment. From that destruction we can go forth and start creating again, and once again when we reach our most triumphant we wipe the slate clean and start over. From destruction comes the oportunity for creation.

That is what it means for me. I have no idea what it means to Larry or any of the original beach burners.

Wouldn't it be interesting if the event followed this idea? Do things until they work perffectly, and then throw them away and do them different. Examples:
- Throw away the 2-10 O'clock city, replace it with an X, or a Square city.
- Throw away center camp and replace it with franchise camps through out the city!
- Throw away the black rock desert and replace it with a forest.
- Leave-No-Trace for Leave-A-Trace!

Okay, not realistic, because having things that work well is probably a good thing...

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:19 pm

The health prayer of Imamiya Shrine, called 'Yasurai Doll' has a folded crimson robe.

The two characters for man (hito) and shape (kata) should be pronounced 'hitogata' and not 'ningyo'as usual. Although it is a simple design of clipped paper, resembling a human figure, it has a very nice shape. If you write your name and age over it and offer it for a divine purification service in the shrine, it is said to have a miraculous efficacy to prevent you from evil disasters and illnesses. Every year in June at Kamigamo Shrine there is a special purification divine ceremony (Nagoshi-no-harae) when after passing through large rings made of kaya (Japanese miscanthus plant used for thatching) paper dolls are thrown into a small river (Nara-no-ogawa-Japanese oak stream) inside the shrine precincts. Moreover, in Shimogamo Shrine there is a divine service called Nagoshi, held the night before the first day of Autumn (7th of August), when you put hitogata dolls to float over the Hand Washing pond in order to purify or wash the evils and disasters from the first half of the year and pray for lack of disasters and good health during the second half of the year. The belief that the disasters can be confined and shut in the paper is quite interesting and exciting.

Often the hitogata dolls are burned in a fire.

Simon of the Playa · Post by **Simon of the Playa** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:44 am

its just a fucking DARPA petri dish, so sit down, shut up and drink the experimental kool-aid.

Ugly Dougly · Post by **Ugly Dougly** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:07 am

It's a big bowl of Mulligatawny Stew, bring your own spoon.

gyre · Post by **gyre** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:22 am

The man is the archetype from our dreams,
where the real and the vividly imagined cross.

is The Man still meaningful?

is The Man still meaningful?

For me personally...