Safe Enough for Children is Too Safe

All things outside of Burning Man.

Assertion: If BurningMan is safe for children, then BurningMan has become too safe.

Agreed. The Burn is no place for kids. Period.
15
25%
Agreed. The Burn is no place for kids. Period.
15
25%
Agreed. Sadly the Burn has become Disneyland in the Desert.
0
No votes
Agreed. Sadly the Burn has become Disneyland in the Desert.
0
No votes
Wrong. Children should face the same risks as adults.
10
17%
Wrong. Children should face the same risks as adults.
10
17%
Wrong. You're so Old School. Today's Burn is a new-age hippy-fest appropriate to all ages.
5
8%
Wrong. You're so Old School. Today's Burn is a new-age hippy-fest appropriate to all ages.
5
8%
 
Total votes: 60

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Da Mule
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Post by Da Mule » Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:41 am

Soon they're going to start making us mules live in segregated ghettos: ASSVILLE.

Who would be so stupid to bring a frigging mule to Burning Man?

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Post by AntiM » Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:45 am

At least twice I know of over the last couple of years, the missing child was being watched and one parent or responsible person did not know that the other responsible party had the kid in their possession.

Heck, we have a kid in our fire conclave. I think he's still at the ceremonial flame stage rather than full on spinning, but you can be sure he knows where his camp is, to always have his kit and water, and to report to a ranger if anything is wrong. Been going for years. Ten years old?

I saw a little kid with his name and camp sharpied on his back. Brilliant. But babies give me pause, they can't communicate their needs. That's why one of our newbs did not attend. Her son is two and his father wouldn't take him for the week, even though he's unemployed and living at home. Just being a jerk. She didn't feel it would be fair to her boy to take him where he might be miserable or scared with no way to tell her what was wrong.

Our first year, we had an idiot mom in Hushville. I read her little boy (2) the same storybook over and over one afternoon, he was attention hungry. I heard the next year she'd been evicted from the event and rumors of child services being called. No idea if this was true. I hope so, she was intent on partying and the child paid the price.

But kids do have a place at the burn. Our regional is 18 and over for insurance/permit reasons, and Utah has unreasonable laws, and it sure isn't as joyous as in previous years.

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Post by ygmir » Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:25 am

Da Mule wrote:Soon they're going to start making us mules live in segregated ghettos: ASSVILLE.

Who would be so stupid to bring a frigging mule to Burning Man?
I, my friend, would carry you, if need be.......as you did me, through the desert, in the days before you had a name.....Image

as we did, during the famous rescue mission...........

and, let 'em try to segregate you...........
if the one legged whore couldn't do it, no one can........
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Too safe for children?

Post by Melvynman » Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:32 am

What is more dangerous at BM than the default world?
Here is a list of things more dangerous in the default world.
Monsters under the Bed!
Sitting in Santa's lap.
Barking dogs.
Big kids.
Bikes without training wheels.
Trick or treat night.
First day of school every year.

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Lassen Forge
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Post by Lassen Forge » Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:35 am

You forgot Clowns...

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Post by justfred » Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:35 am

We can't (for various reasons) and don't want to (for other reasons) restrict children from the event.

We are required by law enforcement as well as by general obligation to society to search for, and care for other people's lost children.

As a community, we accept the responsibility. As individuals bringing children, we have a responsibility to the community not to lose our children, not only because of law enforcement but also because of the burden it places on the community. What this means, is that you may have to pay closer attention to your kids than you normally would, in order that they don't become a problem for the community. I may not care if my kids sees people rutting - but Joe BLM does, so I have to do what I can to prevent that form happening. I may not care if my kid wanders off - it builds character - but my fellow burners do, so I must do what I can to prevent it. Heck, I may think my fourteen-year-old is a pain in the butt, and that it would do him good to try and find his way home to Boston if he can't remember where our tent is - but my responsibility to the community is not to let this happen.

So I think that what we (apparently) need is a stronger message to parents: don't let your kids become a burden on the community.
What goes around, comes around.

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Re: You forgot Clowns

Post by Melvynman » Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:23 pm

No I didn't. They scary me, not has much as kids but scary none the less!

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Post by Lord Of Ruin » Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:54 am

Kiro wrote:...Since kids always have and always will be welcomed at Burning Man...

Since it's been made crystal clear that will never, ever happen....
Can we get a cite on that? Why will they "always be..?" I guarantee that if faced with a monster lawsuit, that darn ticket will change quickly to be "no on under 18 admitted, period." Accepting all ages is only one idea. It's the current norm...but not some absolute.

Kiro wrote: My temple burn and that of everyone around me was ruined by inconsiderate wankers and I didn't get the closure I needed, so I'm sorry
I find this irony a bit tasty. So YOUR Burn was fucked up by someone being inconsiderate, but those of us that think parents bringing their kids to the Burn, and its attendant disproportionate drain on resources, are inconsiderate is somehow a fucked up notion?

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Post by spectabillis » Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:27 pm

justfred wrote:So I think that what we (apparently) need is a stronger message to parents: don't let your kids become a burden on the community.
obviously not paying much attention. the number of children attending is very small - yet the consequences have always created a disproportionate impact.


and no, i have absolutely no obligation to errant parents in looking after their children.

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Post by goathead » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:02 pm

spectabillis wrote: and no, i have absolutely no obligation to errant parents in looking after their children.
That's the thing though, just as I have absolutely no obligation to look after you or anyone else.
If you are down I will still help you, really doesn't matter who you are.

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Post by spectabillis » Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:50 pm

[quote="goathead"That's the thing though, just as I have absolutely no obligation to look after you or anyone else. If you are down I will still help you, really doesn't matter who you are.[/quote]

sorry, im not sure i get your point

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Post by ygmir » Sat Sep 18, 2010 7:46 am

goathead wrote:That's the thing though, just as I have absolutely no obligation to look after you or anyone else. If you are down I will still help you, really doesn't matter who you are.
spectabillis wrote:sorry, im not sure i get your point
his point,
IMO
is that, even though he has no obligation, he'd still help look for a lost child, and, understand others doing it, or, if you had trouble, of some sort, no matter who you are, help you, as well .......

......being a kind, compassionate human............


and, if you are saying you'd not give a rip, about a lost kid,..... well...........


syntax edit
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Post by spectabillis » Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:35 pm

no, wasnt saying that.


this might be a better example of a problem i have with children:
met one parent who asked me what a quixote performance was about, then got really upset and rude when i told her its not really a kid appropriate thing. i asked whats her problem, and heard a couple of the same justifications and rationalizations you read here from other parents.

so those self-entitled parents are increasing too. but even if the number of children stays small it doesnt matter, the changes to accommodate them fucks it up for me and my friends.. but they dont care, in fact its insulting to them to say otherwise. some of the most single minded burners i run into, and a stark realization of just how clueless they can be when reflected against the atmosphere. they really dont give a fuck what most others have to say about it, and at that point yes, have no obligation to them or their children.

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Post by ygmir » Sat Sep 18, 2010 7:04 pm

ok, thanks, I get it.

I somewhat agree with you.
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Post by spectabillis » Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:24 pm

its not a pleasant realization, and i certainly dont have anything against children. but its easy to get rather callous, quickly, when you get labeled and treated as some child eating troll for simply trying to point consequences out.. at that point civil understanding goes out the window.

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Post by Kinetik V » Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:47 pm

Spectabillis.... I wanted to fire off a post that ripped you from one end to the other, that was a no holds barred fire every fucking cannon and make Anti M cringe post supporting kids at BM.

But I can't. I can't because you speak the truth.

This thread and your posts caused all of us here to sit down and have a frank, honest discussion about taking children to Burning Man and our child in particular. And it got heated. But as we discussed your posts and all the different angles to this debate we came to the conclusion you are right.

How do you have freedom of expression when you have to curb that expression in the presence of children? Law Enforcement uses the presence of children as another line item check off on why they need so many of them on the playa. I don't want to have to explain to my son what the guy laying in the hammock masturbating along the outer ring road is doing. I could keep going on but the bottom line...is you have a point.

This is really fucking bothering me because I am all for open access to public land for families and kids in particular....in short now I have to rethink everything and in some cases I will have to change some lobbying efforts to boot.

I'll get off my soapbox by saying thank you for provoking one hellatious discussion over here. Anytime someone can have their mind opened up to a different point of view...it's a great thing.
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Post by gunsmith » Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:44 am

I camped near kid village, for the most part all good, but I did see some kids walking around without an adult late at night/early in the am ( 0430 ).

I wouldn't let my under 11 year old wander around by him/her self at that time ... a drunk on a bike almost ran me over, sheet happens.

I don't think its a great place for kids but I have to admit the parents I meet there are awesome and cool.
I may not be here now but I was there then

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Post by Trishntek » Sun Sep 19, 2010 1:13 am

Well when I'm hollering on the street "Hey! Ya wanna suck Superman's cock?" and I turn around and here's some small children riding on the back of their parent's bicycle,,,, it makes me wonder about inappropriate presence of either me or the children. It just inhibits things a wee bit.
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Post by buckycat » Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:53 am

We had a 5 year old in camp last year. This year one of our campers turned 2 years old on playa. They were both wonderful additions to our camp.

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Post by ygmir » Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:56 am

Trishntek wrote:Well when I'm hollering on the street "Hey! Ya wanna suck Superman's cock?" and I turn around and here's some small children riding on the back of their parent's bicycle,,,, it makes me wonder about inappropriate presence of either me or the children. It just inhibits things a wee bit.
see, that's what bothers me, too..........not specifically, but, that general scenario.
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Post by teardropper » Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:43 am

Please don't hate me or call me names. I'm a very sensitive person...

But I'm not certain kids should be there. And I'm also not certain kids have always been a part of BM. But I wasn't around then. Even if they were, well...

I go into bars and kids aren't there. There are laws. And I like that they are not there. Not necessarily because I do hate kids or do rude things that I think kids should not see. (Though sometimes I do. Really glad they're not there, then.) It's mostly that it's a kid-free zone. We're all adults there, and can do adult things, which are not necessarily bad, or dirty or whatever. It's just an adult place.

I don't always do rude, or dirty or sexy things on the playa. But I want to feel like I can. It's not the default world. And I saw, and not just once, children out by themselves and sometimes late at night. I have to really wonder about that.

All that said, I grew up in a world that would not be PC today. Many sharp, burning and fast things. I made it pretty much fine. But I cut myself, often requiring stitches, I burnt myself, bad enough I still have the scars and I went fast on dangerous little machines. The fact is that some kids, some I knew, didn't make it. I took my son to some places and events that some thought inappropriate. And it all turned out fine. But it did decrease my total involvement at times. I was forced by my own code to be there with him, to take care of him. If parents chose to take there kids to BM they should also take care of them. Totally. I know it takes a village, and if and when something happens, I will be there. I'm just not sure how much child care I want.

Selfish of me, I know. And if you chose to take 'em, please accept the adult place it is and be responsible.

And, also again, please don't hate me or call me names. It's just my thoughts, as of right now and subject to modification. And I am kind of sensitive...
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Post by ygmir » Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:47 am

Ralph

how's that for name calling?
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Post by teardropper » Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:51 am

ygmir wrote:Ralph

how's that for name calling?
Uhhh, damn you ygmir, I said don't call me names...
\^/
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Post by ygmir » Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:09 am

[youtube][/youtube]
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Post by Elderberry » Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:22 am

Trishntek wrote:Well when I'm hollering on the street "Hey! Ya wanna suck Superman's cock?" and I turn around and here's some small children riding on the back of their parent's bicycle,,,, it makes me wonder about inappropriate presence of either me or the children. It just inhibits things a wee bit.
Can't shelter them for ever...and one thing that usually is not considered is that if the child is old enough to understand what is said, it probably doesn't matter that they heard it. If they are not old enough, what is said just sounds like something uttered in a foreign language. And what better way for a parent to properly educate their kids than when they come to them and ask what something they heard means? If explained properly at an age appropriate level, it becomes a teachable moment.

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Post by Elderberry » Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:26 am

teardropper wrote:
I go into bars and kids aren't there.
Really? I seem to remember going into some neighborhood bars back in Cleveland years ago when, usually mothers, went to the bars with their young kids in tow. Is this not legal any more?

(Probably not, I can also remember open container laws too. And then along came MADD--geez, just because one mother lost one child in a drunk driving incident, we are all punished.)

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Post by teardropper » Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:06 am

Yeah, jkisha, it's not legal to bring kids into bars. I say good thing.

And don't get it started on drunk driving...
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Post by Elderberry » Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:01 am

teardropper wrote:Yeah, jkisha, it's not legal to bring kids into bars. I say good thing.

And don't get it started on drunk driving...
:)

JK

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Post by Sail Man » Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:24 am

Edana wrote:Sigh. Here we go again.

I'm one of those "irrational" people who just got home, along with my 3 yr old and 5 yr old. The biggest issue we had was a little bit of wind chapped cheeks. They drank plenty of water, ate well, were sunscreened/sunhatted all the time, never left unattended, got very adept at putting their own masks and goggles on when needed etc. Basically, we were responsible parents on playa, just like we are off playa.

Yes, by the end of the week they were definitely very dirty (but weren't we all?).

And they had the most incredible time. They can't wait to get back.

Yes, it is an extreme enironment. And some parents shouldn't take their kids out there, because they can't handle the responsibility. Some parents shouldn't drive cars with their kids in them either.

But not ALL parents are irresponsible. My kids fared better than a lot of the adults I saw trying to kill themselves out there.

I don't have the official number of kids there, but there were 250 kids in Kidsville alone (and I saw many many kids not from Kidsville too). And there were TWO incidents of "lost" children. In a week? Sounds to me like the parents in general were doing a pretty good job.

(At least 1 of the kids wasn't actually lost - just didn't hear her name being called. Probably never would have even come to a Ranger's knowledge if one hadn't been right there when mom couldn't immediately find the child).

Yeah! What she said. My wee little burner who turned 8 just after the burn has done 3 with us and faired none the worse each time. Maybe you should ask last year's participants how safe the slide of horrific abrasions was :lol: to get some perspective on things. The potential for injury is still there, along with serious mechanism's of injury as us medics call it. Fall of the helix spire just as your nearing the top? Crikey! Could be fatal and/or paralyzing. So how safe is that? Apparently safe enough as my little burner climbed it just fine (with dad guarding him the whole way) What about that tower thingy at center camp? The one with people climbing all over and on the outside of it? Yep, another tower of potential doom.

Maybe it is to safe for you? Would you like a circus cannon out there shooting people onto air mattresses? Jousting in Thunderdome? 24 hrs of Critical Tits? She who lasts the longest gets a lifetime supply of Lidocaine?

Children will keep going to the burn and will become the next gen. of burners. You on the other hand may feel more at home running with the bulls or doing some serious cliff diving. Just saying :wink:
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Post by Sail Man » Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:28 am

Wind_Borne wrote:So does that mean you would vote that children should face the same risks as adults? If so, cool, you're much more daring than those hovering parents that drive their kids to school. And you're the exception, not the rule.

The presence of children already limits what can happen at the Burn. The first time a child gets seriously hurt or killed... the Burn will never the same (if it even survives the law suits).
Well, adults are seriously injured and/or worse at the burn and it still exists. The disclaimer on the back of the tickets is not age specific.
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