A plan to balance the Federal Budget by 2020

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A plan to balance the Federal Budget by 2020

Post by Elderberry » Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:31 pm

Here's a plan (a sensible plan in my opinion) to balance the Federal Budget by 2010. The plan was put together by a bi-partisan commission of former legislators with no political agenda, hence nothing to lose. How many current legislators do you think would be willing to sign on to this plan and make it law?

LOL I wonder how many people here on eplaya would be willing to sign onto this plan?

http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/f ... stics-1110

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Post by Lassen Forge » Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:37 pm

I had this idea yesterday - don't know what to call it - but it's a party kinda like a tea party for SANE people. Call it the DemocraCY party... One person one vote, PERIOD. No quibblist bull$hit... No poitical sloganism, other than "You're a citizen, kick the power hungry the frack OUT.

No ties to no one. Prob is finding NON-POWER-HUNGRY people to be the fronts for it - no one in politics would be there except for the cheap assed power grab.

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Post by Eric » Thu Oct 21, 2010 11:57 pm

One thing that wasn't mentioned- last year I (just me) paid more in taxes then Bank of America, Citi Bank and General Electric combined. They all paid ZERO dollars in taxes. They didn't drive a truck through the IRS loopholes, they ran an armada of battleships through them.

If we actually made corporations pay their fair shares of the taxes, the deficit would shrink greatly, without piling the problems on the backs of our older workers, our sick and our unemployed (laid off by the very same zero-tax paying corporations).

I don't understand how the teapublicans can claim we charge corporations too much in taxes when they actually pay zero. I also don't understand how they can hold tax cuts for 97% of the country hostage so that mega-wealthy 3% can get more than the rest of us combined.

Oh, I so promised myself not to post in a political thread again. I will regret this in the morning.
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Post by Elderberry » Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:22 am

Eric wrote:One thing that wasn't mentioned- last year I (just me) paid more in taxes then Bank of America, Citi Bank and General Electric combined. They all paid ZERO dollars in taxes. They didn't drive a truck through the IRS loopholes, they ran an armada of battleships through them.

If we actually made corporations pay their fair shares of the taxes, the deficit would shrink greatly, without piling the problems on the backs of our older workers, our sick and our unemployed (laid off by the very same zero-tax paying corporations).

I don't understand how the teapublicans can claim we charge corporations too much in taxes when they actually pay zero. I also don't understand how they can hold tax cuts for 97% of the country hostage so that mega-wealthy 3% can get more than the rest of us combined.

Oh, I so promised myself not to post in a political thread again. I will regret this in the morning.
This really shouldn't be a political topic; but alas it will be, which is why the country is in the sad shape it's in.

Most all of us paid more in taxes than the banks and corporations you mentioned above; yet the republicans still continue their mantra about lowering the excessively high corporate tax rates in this country.

This plan attached is a sensible plan to reduce the deficit--yes, it contains some items that will be disliked by almost everyone, but cutting the budget is never a pleasant thing to do, yet it has to be done.

The 'people'--Republicans, Democrats, Tea Party, Libertarians, etc. ALL need to get behind this plan and let their representatives know they want them to quit with the politics and bite the bullet.

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Post by Elderberry » Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:41 am

Bay Bridge Sue wrote:I had this idea yesterday - don't know what to call it - but it's a party kinda like a tea party for SANE people. Call it the DemocraCY party... One person one vote, PERIOD. No quibblist bull$hit... No poitical sloganism, other than "You're a citizen, kick the power hungry the frack OUT.

No ties to no one. Prob is finding NON-POWER-HUNGRY people to be the fronts for it - no one in politics would be there except for the cheap assed power grab.
Unfortunately the situation is more complicated than that. One person, one vote--I'm with you there (electoral college excepted). But definitely all the corporate money needs to be removed from our system.

However, Corporations are a part of the country and do have legitimate concerns that congress does need to address. Lots of people want to eliminate lobbyists--I think they are essential; what I would remove is the ability for any company that has paid lobbyists in Washington to donate money to any campaign.

Additionally, funding should (in my opinion) be provided by the government based on that little check box in your tax return; except that checking it shouldn't be optional. The money should be budgeted based on the race, the largest portion to the Presidential campaign, next the Senate and House. And that would be the only money candidates should be allowed to spend. That would make sure that everyone's message had equal airtime and level the playing field. (And make TV a lot more pleasant to watch without the flood of negative ads that permeate the airwaves this time of year.

But I don't want to drift this thread too far off topic.

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Post by theCryptofishist » Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:10 am

Okay. So I remember at some time hearing that one reason campaigns put on such negative advertising was to turn people off going to the polls at all. What if we couldn't certify an election unless there was (semi-arbitrary number here) 80% turn out? That would change the dynamics a lot, I think.
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Post by ygmir » Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:13 am

IIRC ,in Oz, you get fined if you don't vote............
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Post by Ugly Dougly » Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:40 am

This ignorant barbarian wonders if balancing the budget is important enough to risk sacrificing some things that might be more important.

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Post by Elderberry » Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:40 am

ygmir wrote:IIRC ,in Oz, you get fined if you don't vote............
Interesting.

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Post by Elderberry » Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:42 am

Ugly Dougly wrote:This ignorant barbarian wonders if balancing the budget is important enough to risk sacrificing some things that might be more important.
It might be the only way to do it, after all, everything is important to somebody.

But can you give some examples of what you had in mind?

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Post by Elderberry » Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:54 am

theCryptofishist wrote:Okay. So I remember at some time hearing that one reason campaigns put on such negative advertising was to turn people off going to the polls at all. What if we couldn't certify an election unless there was (semi-arbitrary number here) 80% turn out? That would change the dynamics a lot, I think.
Also interesting.

But it's hard to "force" people to do anything. I'm thinking it's more important to educate people--in how to be a good citizen. Everybody has an opinion, everybody yells and complains, yet none of those people bother to vote, not alone write or call a congressman or senator.

...but these days, there are TV ads that are telling people out-right to not vote!

Now why would anyone do that?

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/ ... te_ad.html

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Post by ygmir » Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:02 am

jkisha wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote:Okay. So I remember at some time hearing that one reason campaigns put on such negative advertising was to turn people off going to the polls at all. What if we couldn't certify an election unless there was (semi-arbitrary number here) 80% turn out? That would change the dynamics a lot, I think.
Also interesting.

But it's hard to "force" people to do anything. I'm thinking it's more important to educate people--in how to be a good citizen. Everybody has an opinion, everybody yells and complains, yet none of those people bother to vote, not alone write or call a congressman or senator.

...but these days, there are TV ads that are telling people out-right to not vote!

Now why would anyone do that?

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/ ... te_ad.html

JK
and, what about the "thugs" in (IIRC) Chicago intimidating people, to not vote? (not to mention the dead that vote there).........

I agree, compelling anyone, to do anything, is counterproductive. Much better to convince them, or show them, how it is and let folks decide.
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Post by Elderberry » Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:09 am

ygmir wrote:and, what about the "thugs" in (IIRC) Chicago intimidating people, to not vote? (not to mention the dead that vote there).........

I agree, compelling anyone, to do anything, is counterproductive. Much better to convince them, or show them, how it is and let folks decide.
Unfortunately, it's not only Chicago.
What to do about it is the question.

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Post by ygmir » Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:11 am

jkisha wrote:
ygmir wrote:and, what about the "thugs" in (IIRC) Chicago intimidating people, to not vote? (not to mention the dead that vote there).........

I agree, compelling anyone, to do anything, is counterproductive. Much better to convince them, or show them, how it is and let folks decide.
Unfortunately, it's not only Chicago.
What to do about it is the question.

JK
agreed, Chicago was just an example......it happens all over, I'm sure.
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Post by Ugly Dougly » Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:28 am

jkisha wrote:
Ugly Dougly wrote:This ignorant barbarian wonders if balancing the budget is important enough to risk sacrificing some things that might be more important.
It might be the only way to do it, after all, everything is important to somebody.

But can you give some examples of what you had in mind?

JK
I am suggesting that the importance of balancing the budget may not be as urgent as assumed and that it is used as a stalking horse to add or remove programs for political reasons.

If you personally owe money, do you cut essentials in order to pay off your debt in a year, or do you look at it long-term and pay it off a little at a time?

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Post by ygmir » Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:34 am

Ugly Dougly wrote:
jkisha wrote:
Ugly Dougly wrote:This ignorant barbarian wonders if balancing the budget is important enough to risk sacrificing some things that might be more important.
It might be the only way to do it, after all, everything is important to somebody.

But can you give some examples of what you had in mind?

JK
I am suggesting that the importance of balancing the budget may not be as urgent as assumed and that it is used as a stalking horse to add or remove programs for political reasons.

If you personally owe money, do you cut essentials in order to pay off your debt in a year, or do you look at it long-term and pay it off a little at a time?
yeah, but, aren't we (U.S.) at the point, we can not only not pay off the principle, but, can't even service the interest?
Is there not a point, where, you gotta cut things?
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Post by Ugly Dougly » Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:36 am

Can we not afford it? How do we know this?

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Post by Elderberry » Fri Oct 22, 2010 11:06 am

Ugly Dougly wrote: I am suggesting that the importance of balancing the budget may not be as urgent as assumed and that it is used as a stalking horse to add or remove programs for political reasons.

If you personally owe money, do you cut essentials in order to pay off your debt in a year, or do you look at it long-term and pay it off a little at a time?
If you look at the proposed plan, I believe that pretty much rules out anyting in it is driven by politics. I personally believe it is crucial to get a handle on the federal budget and many well known economists are of the same opinion.

Regarding the attitude of "payint it off a little at a time" is what gets individuals in trouble financially and is one of the biggest reasons people in this country have such a hard time saving for their future. It is not wise ever to purchase what you can't afford to pay for and it is less wise to 'take time' to pay for it if you do. That is true on a personal level and it should be true for the government.

Only if you are investing (as in a business) where you borrow money to put that money to work earning more money, is borrowing ever justified.

In the old days, if you couldn't afford to buy your house and pay for it cash, you couldn't buy it. Thinking of the current mortgage crisis, it causes one to think that maybe this still might be a good idea and that the American Dream of home ownership might be more a nightmare.

The attitude of entitlement is one of the root causes of personal financial problems for many people.

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Post by ygmir » Fri Oct 22, 2010 11:10 am

jkisha wrote:
Ugly Dougly wrote: I am suggesting that the importance of balancing the budget may not be as urgent as assumed and that it is used as a stalking horse to add or remove programs for political reasons.

If you personally owe money, do you cut essentials in order to pay off your debt in a year, or do you look at it long-term and pay it off a little at a time?
If you look at the proposed plan, I believe that pretty much rules out anyting in it is driven by politics. I personally believe it is crucial to get a handle on the federal budget and many well known economists are of the same opinion.

Regarding the attitude of "payint it off a little at a time" is what gets individuals in trouble financially and is one of the biggest reasons people in this country have such a hard time saving for their future. It is not wise ever to purchase what you can't afford to pay for and it is less wise to 'take time' to pay for it if you do. That is true on a personal level and it should be true for the government.

Only if you are investing (as in a business) where you borrow money to put that money to work earning more money, is borrowing ever justified.

In the old days, if you couldn't afford to buy your house and pay for it cash, you couldn't buy it. Thinking of the current mortgage crisis, it causes one to think that maybe this still might be a good idea and that the American Dream of home ownership might be more a nightmare.

The attitude of entitlement is one of the root causes of personal financial problems for many people.

JK
+10
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Post by Elderberry » Fri Oct 22, 2010 11:22 am

Ugly Dougly wrote:Can we not afford it? How do we know this?
If we are in the red, we can't afford it. Period.

Don't forget the "federal debt" and the "federal budget" are two entirely different things. We have a HUGE national debt http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/ already. The budget is money that we are projecting to spend, and it doesn't even have a line item in to to pay down the principal on the national debt, only interest! If we can't even balance the budget, the federal debt will never be eliminated and we will go on paying hugh sums of money on just the interest.

How do I "know" we can't afford that? Almost seems intuitive. But not trusting my intuition, I have to rely on accountants that know a lot more about finance than I do and trust that there will come a day where we won't be able to borrow money from China and other countries. When we reach that point I'll leave it to you to consider the possible consequences.

It's not so different than a person over-borrowing and finding themselves in a hole that they just can't crawl out of.

We need to BALANCE THE BUDGET with the objective of PAYING DOWN THE DEBT. The Budget needs to be balanced every year, including a line item to pay down principal on the debt. We already have no choice but to pay down the debt over time. A sorry state for the country to be in the first place, I might ad.

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Post by theCryptofishist » Fri Oct 22, 2010 2:17 pm

jkisha wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote:Okay. So I remember at some time hearing that one reason campaigns put on such negative advertising was to turn people off going to the polls at all. What if we couldn't certify an election unless there was (semi-arbitrary number here) 80% turn out? That would change the dynamics a lot, I think.
Also interesting.

But it's hard to "force" people to do anything. I'm thinking it's more important to educate people--in how to be a good citizen. Everybody has an opinion, everybody yells and complains, yet none of those people bother to vote, not alone write or call a congressman or senator.

...but these days, there are TV ads that are telling people out-right to not vote!

Now why would anyone do that?

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/ ... te_ad.html

JK
Eep.
I didn't mean force voters. I meant that it would have an impact on politicos doing things to discourage people who wouldn't vote for them from going to the polls. No point in winning an election if it's thrown out because there weren't enough voters.
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Post by can't sit still » Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:33 pm

jk, it's great that you're thinking about this stuff. I see a couple of things in the proposal that I don't like;
"cost of U. S. engagement in Afghanistan and Iraq will decrease significantly by 2020."
I just can't see any justification to be in these wars. What is the objective? What have we changed?
"manual-labor-intensive jobs and would therefore find working past sixty-seven an undue burden"
That means that me and ygmir will still be breaking down tires and digging ditches when we're 66 y.o. :cry:
The current COLA does not take into account the cost of energy. Obummer says that carbon tax is going to cause the cost of energy "skyrocket"

"At current spending levels, Social Security is projected to become insolvent by 2037"
Last month SS payed out more than it took in. It holds $ 7.4 trillion in non-negotiable treasury bonds. I seriously doubt that treasury will find the money to fund both SS and Medicare. The unfunded liabilities stand at about $ 112 trillion.
Our current debt by GAP standards is about 860 % of GDP.
"Projected Debt-to-GDP Ratio in 2020: 52%"
This is pie-in-the-sky projections that don't take all the liabilities into account.
I'm glad that they're thinking about it. David Walker, the recently departed U.S. Comptroller-General said that there is NO way out. We'll see.
I don't post things because I believe that they are the absolute truth. I post them because I believe that they should be considered.

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Post by ygmir » Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:37 pm

can't sit still wrote:jk, it's great that you're thinking about this stuff. I see a couple of things in the proposal that I don't like;
"cost of U. S. engagement in Afghanistan and Iraq will decrease significantly by 2020."
I just can't see any justification to be in these wars. What is the objective? What have we changed?
"manual-labor-intensive jobs and would therefore find working past sixty-seven an undue burden"
That means that me and ygmir will still be breaking down tires and digging ditches when we're 66 y.o. :cry:
The current COLA does not take into account the cost of energy. Obummer says that carbon tax is going to cause the cost of energy "skyrocket"

"At current spending levels, Social Security is projected to become insolvent by 2037"
Last month SS payed out more than it took in. It holds $ 7.4 trillion in non-negotiable treasury bonds. I seriously doubt that treasury will find the money to fund both SS and Medicare. The unfunded liabilities stand at about $ 112 trillion.
Our current debt by GAP standards is about 860 % of GDP.
"Projected Debt-to-GDP Ratio in 2020: 52%"
This is pie-in-the-sky projections that don't take all the liabilities into account.
I'm glad that they're thinking about it. David Walker, the recently departed U.S. Comptroller-General said that there is NO way out. We'll see.
I sorta like breaking down tires and digging ditches.........I'll just be slower by then.........
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Post by can't sit still » Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:40 pm

ygmir, you haven't seen slow. I broke my back 3 times,,, my feet 4 times and my ankles 4 times. We could have a slow race. :mrgreen:
I don't post things because I believe that they are the absolute truth. I post them because I believe that they should be considered.

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Post by ygmir » Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:41 pm

dang..........and I'm the one posting in "sometimes you're just lucky" thread.

if I get any slower, I'll be going backwards.
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Post by can't sit still » Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:49 pm

OK, we'll race backwards. I got hit on the freeway by a wrong-way driver and trashed my shoulders. I shattered my right hand. Broke a few ribs. Broke a fibula.
What can we do backwards slowly? We could write palindromes,,,
Fucking may be the same forwards as backwards.
What is a good "slow race"? It can't involve crawling. I have 4 big scars on each knee from 14 good motorcycle crashes.
??????????????
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Post by ygmir » Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:58 pm

can't sit still wrote:OK, we'll race backwards. I got hit on the freeway by a wrong-way driver and trashed my shoulders. I shattered my right hand. Broke a few ribs. Broke a fibula.
What can we do backwards slowly? We could write palindromes,,,
Fucking may be the same forwards as backwards.
What is a good "slow race"? It can't involve crawling. I have 4 big scars on each knee from 14 good motorcycle crashes.
??????????????
some of what you ask there is sort of suggestive......l!!!
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Post by cowboyangel » Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:08 pm

This thread is crap. France is demonstrating what balancing the so called budget really means and they are resisting it in style. Tell the bankers to balance their books first. Austerity programs that harm workers is what balancing the budget is really about. Why don't we have banker austerity programs? They are the ones who caused the global mess we're in. Fuckers.
Balance the budget. Get fucking laid.
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Post by Elderberry » Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:48 pm

can't sit still wrote:jk, it's great that you're thinking about this stuff. I see a couple of things in the proposal that I don't like;
"cost of U. S. engagement in Afghanistan and Iraq will decrease significantly by 2020."
I just can't see any justification to be in these wars. What is the objective? What have we changed?
"manual-labor-intensive jobs and would therefore find working past sixty-seven an undue burden"
That means that me and ygmir will still be breaking down tires and digging ditches when we're 66 y.o. :cry:
The current COLA does not take into account the cost of energy. Obummer says that carbon tax is going to cause the cost of energy "skyrocket"

"At current spending levels, Social Security is projected to become insolvent by 2037"
Last month SS payed out more than it took in. It holds $ 7.4 trillion in non-negotiable treasury bonds. I seriously doubt that treasury will find the money to fund both SS and Medicare. The unfunded liabilities stand at about $ 112 trillion.
Our current debt by GAP standards is about 860 % of GDP.
"Projected Debt-to-GDP Ratio in 2020: 52%"
This is pie-in-the-sky projections that don't take all the liabilities into account.
I'm glad that they're thinking about it. David Walker, the recently departed U.S. Comptroller-General said that there is NO way out. We'll see.
There are several things in the proposal I don't like either. Like I said earlier, everybody will have something not to like in this proposal.

I'm not up on all of the figures, so I won't try to argue those points with you except to say that my understanding differs from your figures on Social Security and Medicare and some of your other predictions.

I do agree with you on both Iraq and Afghanistan--no reason to be there. Is your argument being we should end those two wars and cut military budget even more than proposed? If so, that is not even close to what the current reality dictates. It will be hard enough to get congress to agree on ANY military cuts, let alone the comparatively gigantic cuts in the proposal. Try and remember the last time the military budget was cut.

Regarding the raising of the retirement age; your concern, I believe has been addressed in that first, the age will be raised slowly and incrementally, and there will be some sort of consideration given to people in labor intensive jobs.

Regarding Social Security--I just received my first retirement check last month. There hasn't been a cola raise in the last two years anyway. It's really not an important issue for me--a sacrifice I am happy to make.

There are probably a million reasons this plan is not perfect. No plan will be perfect; but this is the best plan I have seen that even has a chance of seeing the light of day in congress.

So, I say do it. Just like health care reform, it's not perfect, but it's a good start and we can make it better in time.

JK
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ygmir
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Post by ygmir » Sat Oct 23, 2010 7:03 am

[quote="cowboyangel"]This thread is crap. France is demonstrating what balancing the so called budget really means and they are resisting it in style. Tell the bankers to balance their books first. Austerity programs that harm workers is what balancing the budget is really about. Why don't we have banker austerity programs? They are the ones who caused the global mess we're in. Fuckers.
Balance the budget. Get fucking laid.[/quote]

seems getting "Lay'd" is part of the problem..........
YGMIR

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