BURNERS SAY NO TO MEXICAN DRUGS

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Post by cowboyangel » Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:41 pm

I don't know...the baseball playoffs had 9 million viewers...does NASCAR have that? At least at the ball game you don't have to breathe fumes, unless it's the drunk dick head sitting next to you....
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Re: BURNERS SAY NO TO MEXICAN DRUGS

Post by joel the ornery » Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:59 pm

cowboyangel wrote:
joel the ornery wrote:
cowboyangel wrote:http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101027/ap_ ... war_mexico

This is a truly insane war and it gets closer to us all the time. It is largely fueled by US buyers and the despicable major banks that help launder the money.

We can make a bold statement by denouncing this hateful drug battle and refusing to buy Mexican Drugs. Why not?
why do you hate america?
I love you that's for sure! And you're part of America, therefore, I must love America too. Hey bowl head, my Giants are beating up the best teams in baseball....if you really loved America, then you'd love America's favorite sport too!
shooting is america's sport, always has been, always will be.

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Post by Elderberry » Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:03 pm

ygmir wrote:
I feel, so often, people take the "oh, it's at least a start, we can fix it later" attitude.......
Hey! I resemble that remark!

But this isn't even "legislation"; it's a proposition put together and on the ballot by whatever special interest group decided they could benefit from this "if the voters approve".

And I believe we've already agreed that the proposition system is flawed to begin with.

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Post by Elderberry » Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:08 pm

ygmir wrote:
Eric wrote:While I am strongly opposed to the drug prohibition laws (anything that both the police & the gangs both want to keep has got to be flawed), I am very much opposed to 19, but for different reasons than Iso.

The main reason is that Holder has already said he will come down hard on CA if this passes. Regardless of what we pass, it is still (stupidly) illegal in the US, and the Powers That Be want it to remain so right now. If we legalize it, and they ignore that, it will be nothing but headaches for the Feds. This means there will be even more farm busts, more Fed actions, more Pot Dispensaries getting busted. The equilibrium we have will be wrecked.

More states need to legalize medical pot, then the process of legalizing pot for all can begin. I hate to advocate slow go on anything, but there are too many hands in the drug-money bin for it to happen quickly.
It'll be interesting, to see how Obama supporters, react to what Holder said.

were it a right wing prez, and, his AG, I bet they'd be screamin' "jack booted thugs"............
Well as one strong Obama supporter, I can tell you that there's a lot of stuff coming out of Holder's office I'm not happy with. Defense of DADT for one.

I won't be shouting "Jack booted thugs" however; that is a technique reserved for the right wing nuts.

Obama did say he would stop enforcing the fed drug police in CA regarding medical marijuana. Prop 19 could, I suppose, end up spoiling the pass we got on that.

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Post by Isotopia » Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:39 pm

Obama did say he would stop enforcing the fed drug police in CA regarding medical marijuana. Prop 19 could, I suppose, end up spoiling the pass we got on that.

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Post by ygmir » Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:08 pm

jkisha wrote:
ygmir wrote:
I feel, so often, people take the "oh, it's at least a start, we can fix it later" attitude.......
Hey! I resemble that remark!

But this isn't even "legislation"; it's a proposition put together and on the ballot by whatever special interest group decided they could benefit from this "if the voters approve".

And I believe we've already agreed that the proposition system is flawed to begin with.

JK
I'm beginning to agree with you more on the "proposition" issue, JK.

Although, I love the theory, it seems it's so screwed up with money and special interest, it is just a way, for said special interests, to bypass full on legislation, and, debate, pertaining to same.
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Post by Ugly Dougly » Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:07 pm

jkisha wrote:I won't be shouting "Jack booted thugs" however; that is a technique reserved for the right wing nuts.
Although some of the jack-booted thugs may be right-wing nuts, saying that to their face only makes them angry. ;)

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Post by Isotopia » Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:38 pm

Somehow I figured that this shot at a cogent discussion would ultimately get driven off the road with superficial one-liners.... and stupid shit, puerile hecklers.

Really, fuck some of you smarmy, water-head Neanderthals.

Maybe shut your computers off and break out your box of fucking crayons if you feel such a need to express yourselves... so asswardly.

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Post by Elderberry » Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:54 pm

ygmir wrote:
jkisha wrote:
ygmir wrote:
I feel, so often, people take the "oh, it's at least a start, we can fix it later" attitude.......
Hey! I resemble that remark!

But this isn't even "legislation"; it's a proposition put together and on the ballot by whatever special interest group decided they could benefit from this "if the voters approve".

And I believe we've already agreed that the proposition system is flawed to begin with.

JK
I'm beginning to agree with you more on the "proposition" issue, JK.

Although, I love the theory, it seems it's so screwed up with money and special interest, it is just a way, for said special interests, to bypass full on legislation, and, debate, pertaining to same.
I've got to mark this date in my calendar! :)

Frankly, it's special interests and the money they spend that is the biggest problem with government. IMHO. And it has only been made worse by the last supreme court decision to allow unlimited anonymous contributions to elections. Very bad for democracy.

I think either one of two things should happen...

Either the government needs to fund elections and every candidate gets a certain amount of money to campaign.

Or, if the campaigns are not funded by government, then I think all the funding/donations should be limited to only people (not groups or corporations) that actually live IN the district where the election is being held, and there should be a certain dollar limit on the amount any one individual can contribute.

We've got to get back to one man, one vote. Not one dollar, one vote. And corporations have no say in elections.

Then we can move on to finding a solution to how to eliminate lobbyists.

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Post by Elderberry » Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:55 pm

Isotopia wrote:Somehow I figured that this shot at a cogent discussion would ultimately get driven off the road with superficial one-liners.... and stupid shit, puerile hecklers.

Really, fuck some of you smarmy, water-head Neanderthals.

Maybe shut your computers off and break out your box of fucking crayons if you feel such a need to express yourselves... so asswardly.
Aw common, this thread has stayed on topic a hell of a lot longer than expected. Frankly, I found it very informative.

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Post by ygmir » Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:53 am

jkisha wrote:
ygmir wrote:
jkisha wrote: I'm beginning to agree with you more on the "proposition" issue, JK.

Although, I love the theory, it seems it's so screwed up with money and special interest, it is just a way, for said special interests, to bypass full on legislation, and, debate, pertaining to same.

I've got to mark this date in my calendar!
:)

Frankly, it's special interests and the money they spend that is the biggest problem with government. IMHO. And it has only been made worse by the last supreme court decision to allow unlimited anonymous contributions to elections. Very bad for democracy.

I think either one of two things should happen...

Either the government needs to fund elections and every candidate gets a certain amount of money to campaign.

Or, if the campaigns are not funded by government, then I think all the funding/donations should be limited to only people (not groups or corporations) that actually live IN the district where the election is being held, and there should be a certain dollar limit on the amount any one individual can contribute.

We've got to get back to one man, one vote. Not one dollar, one vote. And corporations have no say in elections.

Then we can move on to finding a solution to how to eliminate lobbyists.

JK
seems I'd have a lot of marks, then. I find, I agree with a lot of what you say.........

and appreciate, the civil discourse, when we don't.
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Post by Ugly Dougly » Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:28 am

Have we solved the issue yet? Nah, didn't think so.

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Post by MistressSybs » Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:11 am

ygmir wrote:
jkisha wrote:
ygmir wrote:
I feel, so often, people take the "oh, it's at least a start, we can fix it later" attitude.......
Hey! I resemble that remark!

But this isn't even "legislation"; it's a proposition put together and on the ballot by whatever special interest group decided they could benefit from this "if the voters approve".

And I believe we've already agreed that the proposition system is flawed to begin with.

JK
I'm beginning to agree with you more on the "proposition" issue, JK.

Although, I love the theory, it seems it's so screwed up with money and special interest, it is just a way, for said special interests, to bypass full on legislation, and, debate, pertaining to same.
as is anything the government; lobbyists; or politicians freaking touch.

Power corrupts period.
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Post by Elderberry » Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:05 am

MistressSybs wrote:
as is anything the government; lobbyists; or politicians freaking touch.

Power corrupts period.
More worthless hyperbole. Do you have anything of value to add to this conversation?

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Post by cowboyangel » Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:28 pm

jkisha wrote:
MistressSybs wrote:
as is anything the government; lobbyists; or politicians freaking touch.

Power corrupts period.
More worthless hyperbole. Do you have anything of value to add to this conversation?

JK
The proof is in the pudding...just look at the results...give the lady a chance...she's right. I had a different idea about this topic but I think the discussion has turned me away from yes on 19. The current strategy with measures is to co-op them with similarity and underhanded intentions.
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Post by Ugly Dougly » Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:00 pm

As long as the Feds hold the keys to legalization, ANY contortion that California will have unforseen consequences.
Complete legalization would cause the price to plummet, obviously, robbing money from the tax coffers.
Can we make some pot growing legal and others illegal? We do that with alcohol. Although it does help keep poisonous liquor from being distilled it mostly favors big corporations.

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Post by Fire_Moose » Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:26 pm

THIS IS A LIE!


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Post by theCryptofishist » Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:18 pm

It would be nice to get growing off our public lands where it causes a fair amount of damage.
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Post by ygmir » Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:57 pm

yeah, why is not E.L.F. setting up protests and such around these pot farms, on public lands, that poison the earth and water and kill anything that comes near that might hurt the plants?

now, that'd be putting their issue before themselves..........

And, don't say they don't know where any are, or, can't find them....
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Post by gyre » Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:18 pm

They may find that whole body dismantling thing offputting.

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Post by Isotopia » Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:44 pm

It would be nice to get growing off our public lands where it causes a fair amount of damage.
Totally. And again, King's Canyon, Yosemite and Pt. Reyes all have had major, MAJOR ecological disruption from outdoor growers primarily (but not exclusively) from across the border tearing up pristine, riparian habitat.

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Post by Elderberry » Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:51 pm

The list of supporters of Prop 19 is pretty impressive.

Supporters
Gary E. Johnson, former two term Republican Governor of New Mexico [8]
Joycelyn Elders, former United States Surgeon General[9]
George Miller, current Democratic House Representative from California's 7th congressional district[10]
Barbara Lee, current Democratic House Representative from California's 9th congressional district[10]
Pete Stark, current Democratic House Representative from California's 13th congressional district[10]
John Dennis, 2010 Republican Congressional candidate for California's 8th congressional district[11]
Dan Hamburg, former Democratic House Representative from California's 1st congressional district[12]
Don Perata, former Democratic President pro tempore of the California State Senate[12]
Mark Leno, current Democratic member of the California State Senate[12]
Tom Ammiano, current Democratic member of the California State Assembly[13][14]
Jorge Castañeda Gutman, former Secretary of Foreign Affairs of Mexico[15]
Larry Bedard, former President of the American College of Emergency Physicians[16]
Tom Bates, current Mayor of Berkeley, California[12]
James P. Gray, former Superior Court judge of Orange County, California and former Libertarian Party senate candidate[17]
John A. Russo, current City Attorney of Oakland, California[18]
Paul Gallegos, current District Attorney of Humboldt County, California[12]
Jeffrey Schwartz, former Senior District Attorney and Prosecutor of Humboldt County, California[12]
Terence Hallinan, former District Attorney of San Francisco, California[12]
Mike Schmier, former District Attorney of Los Angeles, California and California Administrative Law Judge[12]
Norm Stamper, former Seattle, Washington police chief[19]
Joseph McNamara, Research Fellow at the Hoover Institution and former Chief of Police of San Jose, California and of Kansas City, Missouri[12]
Stephen Downing, former Los Angeles, California police chief[12]
David Doodridge, former Los Angeles, California narcotics detective[20]
Ed Rosenthal, cannabis activist and columnist [21]
Marc Emery, cannabis activist and former cannabis seed seller[22]
California NAACP[23]
Oakland City Council[24]
Berkeley City Council[12]
Humboldt County Board of Supervisors [25]
California NORML[26]
Drug Policy Alliance[27]
Marijuana Policy Project[28]
American Federation of Teachers[29]
National Black Police Association[30]
National Latino Officers Association[31]
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition[32]
ACLU of Northern California[12]
ACLU of San Diego[12]
United Food and Commercial Workers Union[33]
Communications Workers of America, Local 9415[34]
International Longshore and Warehouse Union, Northern California District Council[35]
Service Employees International Union of California[36]
Interfaith Drug Policy Initiative[12]
Los Angeles County Democratic Party[37]
San Francisco Democratic Party[38]
Alameda County Democratic Party[12]
Monterey County Democratic Party[12]
Santa Barbara County Democratic Party[39]
California Young Democrats[40]
Republican Liberty Caucus[12]
Green Party of California[12]
United States Libertarian Party[41]
League of United Latin American Citizens[42]

And the complete list
http://yeson19.com/endorsements

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Post by Isotopia » Sat Oct 30, 2010 12:31 am

Totally impressive if your tendency is to vote as part of a monolith.

Sheeple follow that sort of herd behavior.

I say vote your conscience in a way that you don't feel like you have to take a shower after exiting the voting booth.

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Post by Elderberry » Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:17 am

Isotopia wrote:Totally impressive if your tendency is to vote as part of a monolith.

Sheeple follow that sort of herd behavior.
This is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard you say...and this, after I was so impressed with your initial post.

I suspect your comment would be the same had I posted a list of all of those that opposed prop 19?

You're either for something or against it--it's not a question of being a 'sheeple' it a question of which direction the sheep are heading.

Duh!
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Post by cowboyangel » Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:41 am

Isotopia wrote:
It would be nice to get growing off our public lands where it causes a fair amount of damage.
Totally. And again, King's Canyon, Yosemite and Pt. Reyes all have had major, MAJOR ecological disruption from outdoor growers primarily (but not exclusively) from across the border tearing up pristine, riparian habitat.
I agree too. As a former Earth First! videographer, I can say that the wrecking of public lands is a serious issue that is neglected by many environmental groups. Marin County, where I live has seen a recent rash of cartel growers diverting streams in spotted owl habitat and introducing poisons into the land and weapons in the open space. This has got to stop.

I'm voting No on 19
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Post by cowboyangel » Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:51 am

jkisha wrote:
Isotopia wrote:Totally impressive if your tendency is to vote as part of a monolith.

Sheeple follow that sort of herd behavior.
This is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard you say...and this, after I was so impressed with your initial post.

I suspect your comment would be the same had I posted a list of all of those that opposed prop 19?

You're either for something or against it--it's not a question of being a 'sheeple' it a question of which direction the sheep are heading.

Duh!

There is nothing more deceptive than what looks good on the surface, especially to "environmentalists", turning out to be bad when actually deployed. Here in Marin, there were many of us in the environmental movement split over the attempts by developers and so called transportation advocates to create a taxpayer funded train over existing train rights of way running from Larkspur to Eureka. The resulting SMART train as it is called is now seriously underfunded. It's projections of relieving traffic congestion turning out to be a lie. The northern part of the run which would serve freight has despicable forces proposing to rebuild the tracks along the banks of the endangered Eel River. The previous rail service encountered frequent landslides and track disruptions causing about a million dollars a month to be spent in repair work. SMART was a Trojan horse carrying railside development inside its rotten body.

The consequences of seemingly good things going bad must be studied before you pull the yes trigger on a proposition.
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Post by Elderberry » Sat Oct 30, 2010 12:08 pm

cowboyangel wrote:
jkisha wrote:
Isotopia wrote:Totally impressive if your tendency is to vote as part of a monolith.

Sheeple follow that sort of herd behavior.
This is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard you say...and this, after I was so impressed with your initial post.

I suspect your comment would be the same had I posted a list of all of those that opposed prop 19?

You're either for something or against it--it's not a question of being a 'sheeple' it a question of which direction the sheep are heading.

Duh!

There is nothing more deceptive than what looks good on the surface, especially to "environmentalists", turning out to be bad when actually deployed. Here in Marin, there were many of us in the environmental movement split over the attempts by developers and so called transportation advocates to create a taxpayer funded train over existing train rights of way running from Larkspur to Eureka. The resulting SMART train as it is called is now seriously underfunded. It's projections of relieving traffic congestion turning out to be a lie. The northern part of the run which would serve freight has despicable forces proposing to rebuild the tracks along the banks of the endangered Eel River. The previous rail service encountered frequent landslides and track disruptions causing about a million dollars a month to be spent in repair work. SMART was a Trojan horse carrying railside development inside its rotten body.

The consequences of seemingly good things going bad must be studied before you pull the yes trigger on a proposition.
I guess you're just making a comment (which I agree with, btw).

This also works in the other direction as well...take the subway in los angeles, for example. Originally it was planned to extend all the way into Beverly Hills, but the people in that lovely city voted against it because they feared it would bring too many undesirables into their fair city. Now they are all begging for its extension because the traffic along the major streets is unbearable and would have been eliminated had they gotten the subway extended to BH to begin with.

So, it's looking like it will be extended, but the cost is 10 times more today than it would have been if done originally. Also, same problem with extension to Airport...all the business people that had parking concessions for the airport put up such a stink about loosing parking revenue that extension was tabled too.

Very frustrating sometimes.

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Post by Bob » Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:09 pm

Everything has lists of pro and con supporters. Some local Democrat clubs have no position on 19. Plenty of local sheriffs etc. on the con side. No doubt Prop 19 will keep lawyers employed for years. I'm voting no on everything this year, nothing is that compelling on the ballot. Vote what you believe.
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Post by ygmir » Sat Oct 30, 2010 5:09 pm

Bob wrote:Everything has lists of pro and con supporters. Some local Democrat clubs have no position on 19. Plenty of local sheriffs etc. on the con side. No doubt Prop 19 will keep lawyers employed for years. I'm voting no on everything this year, nothing is that compelling on the ballot. Vote what you believe.
I voted "no" for Ca governor
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Post by Elderberry » Sat Oct 30, 2010 5:35 pm

cowboyangel wrote:
Isotopia wrote:
It would be nice to get growing off our public lands where it causes a fair amount of damage.
Totally. And again, King's Canyon, Yosemite and Pt. Reyes all have had major, MAJOR ecological disruption from outdoor growers primarily (but not exclusively) from across the border tearing up pristine, riparian habitat.
I agree too. As a former Earth First! videographer, I can say that the wrecking of public lands is a serious issue that is neglected by many environmental groups. Marin County, where I live has seen a recent rash of cartel growers diverting streams in spotted owl habitat and introducing poisons into the land and weapons in the open space. This has got to stop.

I'm voting No on 19
So will you be voting for Prop 21 then?

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