9/11

All things outside of Burning Man.

What really happened?

I tend to believe the official story, more or less.
14
23%
I tend to believe the official story, more or less.
14
23%
I think the gov't knew, but allowed it to happen.
7
11%
I think the gov't knew, but allowed it to happen.
7
11%
I think it was an inside job.
7
11%
I think it was an inside job.
7
11%
Other (explain)
3
5%
Other (explain)
3
5%
 
Total votes: 62

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theCryptofishist
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Post by theCryptofishist » Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:36 am

JStep wrote:
Trishntek wrote:When was this photograph taken? Who took it and why?

I understand what we see here. What is not clear is whether there had been clearing ops involving a cutting torch or air arc cutter. But even if it is truly the damage as it lays after the collapse, steel can break like that when extremes in temperature are in play.
But one of a thousand possibilities, and why I don't bother responding to such posts as "well, what about this photo?" The human imagination seeks patterns and tries to make sense of things in such a fashion, but it deludes itself. My initial reaction to F_Ms post was "well, what *about* it?" It proves nothing, it offers nothing, it sheds light on nothing. If that is the standard for proof of a diabolical worldwide conspiracy, then can I interest you in purchasing the Brooklyn Bridge?
Would like to add that the amount of data we have on very large skyscrapers hit by planes and burning for hours is quite small. And no one's going to build us a skyscraper and let us crash an airliner into it just so we can get some more. At that amount of data, we are likely to have lots of seeming anomalous occurrences which we would be able to understand if we had more knowledge.
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Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

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BAS
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Post by BAS » Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:19 am

neon tetra wrote:Sure, we have WBAI/Pacifica here too (home of Amy Goodman's Democracy Now show), and a few other listener-supported stations.

But they probably account for < 1%, and those stations, while good at what they broadcast, are pretty much preaching to the choir.
Well, you completely ignored that I said I think you can try appealing to the baser instincts of large media. Instead all you have said is that we can do nothing since they hold all the cards, and you posted this on ePlaya which is even smaller than the choir (hell, most BURNERS aren't even here!) So, other than shoot down the ideas of someone who has said he thinks we might not know the whole story, even if he thinks that the story is different than what you think, what are you actually DOING?! What are you trying to do?

I attended some of the protests to try to keep us from going to war in Iraq. I may have lost a job with the Division of Motor Vehicles due to a bumper sticker urging people to impeach Bush. I vote. I pay my union dues. And, even if you do convince me it was an inside job, I am a 47 year old janitor who has messed up his life by spending a good portion of this year getting stoned. Right now I am more concerned with the new governor either cutting my job and/or my benefits. My priority right now is setting myself some goals and creating a plan to achieve them and sticking to the plan, not something which happened about a decade ago. I need to be more concerned about the future than the past, since that is where I intend to live.

What is your plan? What are your goals. You don't even seem to have a strategy other than to tell people "look at the evidence." The truth does NOT automatically set anyone free. Even if what you think happened is the truth, and you do manage to convince some of the people here, what do you think will happen?

Yes, 9/11 was a tragedy. But I really don't have any resources to spare, and I fail to even see a strategy on how you think I should use them, much less reasons for using them for whatever it is you are doing.
"Nothing is withheld from us which we have conceived to do.
Do things that have never been done."
--Russell Kirsch

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theCryptofishist
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Post by theCryptofishist » Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:32 pm

How many people think the right is lucky that such a portion of the left is spending its time chasing the "conspiracy" instead of actual engaged political action that changes things. And then there's the icing on top of that cake, the portion of the left that has to tell the other portion of the left that they are barking up a tree that doesn't exist?
some point soon someone will find a way to implicate Obama. And it won't be the "birthers."
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Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

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Post by neon tetra » Sun Nov 21, 2010 3:33 pm

theCryptofishist wrote: . . the right is lucky that such a portion of the left is spending its time chasing the "conspiracy" . .
I don't think it's necessarily a 'left' thing. Alex Jones & Ron Paul worshipers generally lean right, as do a lot of the anti-government folks.

Also, a lot of 'lefties' like Maher, Stewart & Maddow pretty much dismiss the whole thing as rubbish.
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Post by Box Burner » Sun Nov 21, 2010 4:11 pm

BAS wrote:
neon tetra wrote:Sure, we have WBAI/Pacifica here too (home of Amy Goodman's Democracy Now show), and a few other listener-supported stations.

But they probably account for < 1%, and those stations, while good at what they broadcast, are pretty much preaching to the choir.
Well, you completely ignored that I said I think you can try appealing to the baser instincts of large media. Instead all you have said is that we can do nothing since they hold all the cards, and you posted this on ePlaya which is even smaller than the choir (hell, most BURNERS aren't even here!) So, other than shoot down the ideas of someone who has said he thinks we might not know the whole story, even if he thinks that the story is different than what you think, what are you actually DOING?! What are you trying to do?

I attended some of the protests to try to keep us from going to war in Iraq. I may have lost a job with the Division of Motor Vehicles due to a bumper sticker urging people to impeach Bush. I vote. I pay my union dues. And, even if you do convince me it was an inside job, I am a 47 year old janitor who has messed up his life by spending a good portion of this year getting stoned. Right now I am more concerned with the new governor either cutting my job and/or my benefits. My priority right now is setting myself some goals and creating a plan to achieve them and sticking to the plan, not something which happened about a decade ago. I need to be more concerned about the future than the past, since that is where I intend to live.

What is your plan? What are your goals. You don't even seem to have a strategy other than to tell people "look at the evidence." The truth does NOT automatically set anyone free. Even if what you think happened is the truth, and you do manage to convince some of the people here, what do you think will happen?

Yes, 9/11 was a tragedy. But I really don't have any resources to spare, and I fail to even see a strategy on how you think I should use them, much less reasons for using them for whatever it is you are doing.
For yourself you are currently doing all that you should be.

But for everyone a free society, be it a democracy or a republic, such as we are supposed to have, is a hands on form of government. the founding fathers made that clear. the right to keep and bear arms is not about huntng or even about defending ourselves from foreign invaders. those are just side issues. the right to keep and bear arms is about being able to back up your vote with lead if it should the need to do so ever arise.
Dance in the heart of chaos. . . . .

ὁ δὲ ἀνεξέταστος βίος οὐ βιωτὸς ἀνθρώπῳ
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --- Σωκράτης

.

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Post by BAS » Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:48 am

I agree with you, even about the part concerning the right to keep and bear arms (although at the same time, I am not necessarily anti-gun control-- I seem to lean in the same direction as Michael Moore-- see" Bowling for Columbine.")

Also, the Left is far less organized than the Right, which is why the Right has had such control these past few decades. Hopefully, the Right's organization is starting to crumble.
"Nothing is withheld from us which we have conceived to do.
Do things that have never been done."
--Russell Kirsch

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Darkangel
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Post by Darkangel » Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:49 pm

how did I get here?

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Post by Box Burner » Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:04 pm

OK, Like I said befire. Left or right, republican or democrat. they are the same. Two sides of the same coin. If you vote ofr either republican or democrat you have wasted your vote. No matter which side of the coin comes up...YOU LOSE!
Dance in the heart of chaos. . . . .

ὁ δὲ ἀνεξέταστος βίος οὐ βιωτὸς ἀνθρώπῳ
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --- Σωκράτης

.

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Post by neon tetra » Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:37 pm

Box Burner wrote:Left or right, republican or democrat. they are the same.
On some issues, perhaps. But overall, I don't agree at all.
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BAS
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Post by BAS » Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:00 am

Box Burner wrote:OK, Like I said befire. Left or right, republican or democrat. they are the same. Two sides of the same coin. If you vote ofr either republican or democrat you have wasted your vote. No matter which side of the coin comes up...YOU LOSE!
Eh, I go based on the individual politician, which means I have to use my brain. Most folks, it seems, find this method too difficult and don't vote at all, or let someone else decide for them, or habitually vote a straight party ticket.
"Nothing is withheld from us which we have conceived to do.
Do things that have never been done."
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Post by Box Burner » Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:23 pm

Well, if the individual politician is a democrat or a republican don't vote for him. No matter how good he is or seems to be, he is still tied to his party and both parties are rotten to the core.
Dance in the heart of chaos. . . . .

ὁ δὲ ἀνεξέταστος βίος οὐ βιωτὸς ἀνθρώπῳ
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --- Σωκράτης

.

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Post by neon tetra » Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:21 pm

I still think voting for the lesser of 2 evils is better than not voting at all (or wasting a vote on a candidate who has zero chance of winning).
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Post by Box Burner » Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:24 pm

neon tetra wrote:I still think voting for the lesser of 2 evils is better than not voting at all (or wasting a vote on a candidate who has zero chance of winning).
And that is the problem. If 70% of the voters do not like either the republican or democrat candidates but decide to vote for the lesser of two evils, they have voted not to fix the probem. In fact they have told both parties that they do not need to pay any attention to what the public really wants. There are other candidates, some of them with good ideas about what this country needs, and who care about what they are doing rather than just parroting the party line so they can get ahead. Don't like any of the candidates? vote for yourself, vote for your uncle Harry or the bartender down the street or mickey mouse. If all 70% of those voters went out and voted for someone else, even a fitional character, what do you think it would say to the republicans and the democrats? What do you think it would say to the country as a whole? Not voting is stupid. Voting for the lesser of two evils is just as stupid. The democrats and the republicans have made a pact and they have the American people in a stranglehold. It's time to break it.
Dance in the heart of chaos. . . . .

ὁ δὲ ἀνεξέταστος βίος οὐ βιωτὸς ἀνθρώπῳ
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --- Σωκράτης

.

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Post by neon tetra » Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:48 pm

Box Burner wrote: And that is the problem.
I agree. But it is what it is, and the reality of the situation is that a vote for a 3rd party candidate can, in essence, be a vote for the worst candidate.

In 2000, Nader was IMO the best candidate. But votes for him were really just a vote for Bush.
It sucks, but being an idealist at the polls can do more harm than good.

Your theory is only logical if both Republicans & Democrats are equally as bad. That really isn't the case though.
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Post by TomServo » Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:18 pm

Preparing for Burning Man 2001, I kept a journal. In one entry, I mentioned that it felt like the end of the world. That thought stuck with me, till I was on the playa. On burn night, we had a harvest moon....huge and blood red. That feeling creeped back in my mind. As the man burned, dust devils marched out in a straight line, headed east. As far as I know, that was the first time that had happened.

About a week later, I watched the second tower get hit on live TV. At that moment, I knew it was Al Quaida....Bush wasnt/isn't smart enough to pull that off. Sure, we had warnings in Clintons reign, but our government doesn't think that quick. And, if they do...they fight about it till its too late.

For a brief, and beautiful moment, it brought us together. But were programmed to fight. Fuck it! And fuck 9/11! It happened...its over!


Props to Burners Without Borders! Who were mobilizing to help out the gulf coast! When most of us had no idea that a hurricane had hit....during burning man. When I arrived in the default world, our government was still confused.
anything worth doing is worth overdoing..

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Post by BAS » Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:18 am

Well, I can't really think of anything to add to neon tetra's and TomServo's posts. I didn't get to go to Burning Man until 2006, so I was at work at a grocery store when Katrina hit, and in 2001 I got to watch the second tower fall on live t.v.-- both were similar in the feeling of impotence.

I sincerely doubt that Bush's, or any of our Presidents', Administration could pull off a conspiracy of the size necessary for 9/11 to have been an inside job, even with someone who is an expert in compartmentalizing information in charge.

It IS documented that they knew Al Quaidi was planing something, since one of the leftover experts from the Clinton Administration told them, and was told "Okay, now that you've covered your ass, get out!" IIRC, the expert didn't know what, when, or where of what they were planing. I still think it possible that they believed the guy, and may have deliberately allowed it to happen so George would get a boost in his popularity. Then again, I might be giving them too much credit in the "knowing what they were doing" department...
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Post by Box Burner » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:00 pm

The evidence that the buldings were brought down by forces other that the planes that crashed into them does not neccesarily point to the Bush administration. the fact that many people who have seen the evidence are pointing their finger at Bush may be part of the conspiracy. Just another effort to obscure the real conspirators. 9/11 may simply be the smoke and mirrors that allow the magician to march the elephant of the other end of the stage unseen.
Dance in the heart of chaos. . . . .

ὁ δὲ ἀνεξέταστος βίος οὐ βιωτὸς ἀνθρώπῳ
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --- Σωκράτης

.

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Post by ygmir » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:06 pm

Box Burner wrote:The evidence that the buldings were brought down by forces other that the planes that crashed into them does not neccesarily point to the Bush administration. the fact that many people who have seen the evidence are pointing their finger at Bush may be part of the conspiracy. Just another effort to obscure the real conspirators. 9/11 may simply be the smoke and mirrors that allow the magician to march the elephant of the other end of the stage unseen.
+1
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JStep
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Post by JStep » Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:05 pm

ygmir wrote:
Box Burner wrote:The evidence that the buldings were brought down by forces other that the planes that crashed into them does not neccesarily point to the Bush administration. the fact that many people who have seen the evidence are pointing their finger at Bush may be part of the conspiracy. Just another effort to obscure the real conspirators. 9/11 may simply be the smoke and mirrors that allow the magician to march the elephant of the other end of the stage unseen.
+1
Agreed. There are so many unscientific assumptions made by the tin foil hats that it's pointless to even respond. It's the same as Richard Dawkins not bothering to debate the Creationist nuts. You take a prefabricated narrative and point to that being the only possible explanation to anything unknown, inconsistent or remotely controversial about the known facts. It's silly and serves no purpose other than to confuse the layman.
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Post by TomServo » Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:10 pm

Fuck 9/11 conspiracies...jet fuel burns hot. Heat weakens metal. Give it a rest! Bush was handed an opportunity, and we all paid for it! We all knew it was going to happen sooner or later. And in a way, the terrorists won, by re electing that fucktard!
anything worth doing is worth overdoing..

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theCryptofishist
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Post by theCryptofishist » Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:38 am

TomServo wrote:Fuck 9/11 conspiracies...jet fuel burns hot. Heat weakens metal. Give it a rest! Bush was handed an opportunity, and we all paid for it! We all knew it was going to happen sooner or later. And in a way, the terrorists won, by re electing that fucktard!
\
+1
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Man, no wonder they always win....." Lonesomebri

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you want tin foil? I'll give you Tin FOIL!

Post by Simon of the Playa » Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:37 pm

i think this explains it all quite nicely... :twisted:


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Post by TomServo » Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:21 pm

April 20 is adolf hitlers birthday, its my birthday and its the day people get stoned. Conspiracy?
anything worth doing is worth overdoing..

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Post by Simon of the Playa » Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:36 pm

TomServo wrote:April 20 is adolf hitlers birthday, its my birthday and its the day people get stoned. Conspiracy?


no, it is FACT!


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Post by cowboyangel » Thu Nov 25, 2010 4:25 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
TomServo wrote:Fuck 9/11 conspiracies...jet fuel burns hot. Heat weakens metal. Give it a rest! Bush was handed an opportunity, and we all paid for it! We all knew it was going to happen sooner or later. And in a way, the terrorists won, by re electing that fucktard!
\
+1

http://911speakout.org


jet fuel cannot cause a catastrophic collapse. It's physically impossible. Check out the above link for a scientific analysis or remain entombed in your ignorant beliefs.
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believe is false."- William Casey, CIA Director 1981

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Post by TomServo » Thu Nov 25, 2010 10:50 pm

Well, we all believe what we want to believe. I don't think those firemen rushing up the towers were planting explosives. And, as far as I know, cameras didn't stop for commercials that day.






Sarah Palin did it!
anything worth doing is worth overdoing..

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Post by myburningdesire » Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:55 am

I don't think it matters how it happened, or who did it. It happened.
Unfortunately this is apart of our world now, I realize this. I think we should quit focusing on the possible plots and focus on changing our government. I think the founding fathers would be appalled. I love my country, I love my soldiers, I do NOT love politicians.
I am not willing to give up my freedom for a bit of security. Dammit! I do not want to be told what is good or bad for me, I would like for my government to treat me as an adult and quit telling me what I can and can't do, how I can and cannot parent my kid!
:D

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Post by neon tetra » Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:13 am

myburningdesire wrote: I love my soldiers
They have killed hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians overseas.

Do you really "love" them?? :?
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Post by ygmir » Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:18 am

neon tetra wrote:
myburningdesire wrote: I love my soldiers
They have killed hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians overseas.

Do you really "love" them?? :?
WTF? neon tetra...........really............WTF?

what do you mean by that statement?
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Post by neon tetra » Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:21 am

What I mean is exactly what I said. I don't see how you can "love" people who have murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians for no good reason other than the fact that they were told to by crooks & liars.

Our soldiers haven't fought an honorable war since WWII.
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