Who is actually funding the national debt?

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Who is actually funding the national debt?

Post by Elderberry » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:08 am

Here's an easy to understand chart. How many of us thought from the news that it was China?

http://www.dylanratigan.com/2011/01/14/ ... e-us-debt/

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Post by theCryptofishist » Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:04 pm

I've known it's China for years.
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Post by Ugly Dougly » Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:03 pm

Among others.

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Post by oneeyeddick » Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:18 pm

what in the hell do we owe Brazil billions of dollars for?
We have an obligation to make space for everyone, we have no obligation to make that space pleasant.

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Post by ygmir » Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:58 pm

oneeyeddick wrote:what in the hell do we owe Brazil billions of dollars for?
waxing royalties..........
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Post by knowmad » Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:09 pm

oneeyeddick wrote:what in the hell do we owe Brazil billions of dollars for?
FromCIA Wrld Facts
Brazil's economy outweighs that of all other South American countries, and Brazil is expanding its presence in world markets. Since 2003, Brazil has steadily improved its macroeconomic stability, building up foreign reserves, and reducing its debt profile by shifting its debt burden toward real denominated and domestically held instruments. In 2008, Brazil became a net external creditor and two ratings agencies awarded investment grade status to its debt. After record growth in 2007 and 2008, the onset of the global financial crisis hit Brazil in September 2008. Brazil experienced two quarters of recession, as global demand for Brazil's commodity-based exports dwindled and external credit dried up. However, Brazil was one of the first emerging markets to begin a recovery. Consumer and investor confidence revived and GDP growth returned to positive in 2010, boosted by an export recovery. Brazil's strong growth and high interest rates make it an attractive destination for foreign investors.

Me thinks when our shit fell apart our firms and investment banks got their $$ out of this country. Kinda like when I asked to borrow my brothers Geni right before his wife left him for being a shithead, I knew he was a shithead and I knew he owed me $200 bucks. Sad uh?
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Post by Elderberry » Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:59 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:I've known it's China for years.
Nope, not even close.

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Post by Elderberry » Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:01 pm

Image

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Post by theCryptofishist » Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:34 pm

*eats crow*
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Post by oneeyeddick » Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:47 pm

Eating exported meat from China is no way to try to level the bar.
We have an obligation to make space for everyone, we have no obligation to make that space pleasant.

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Post by geekster » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:33 pm

Actually, china isn't funding that debt. It is people who are not yet even old enough to work that will have to repay it, and they are the ones ultimately funding it. We are spending our children's and grandchildren's earnings now. They are going to have to repay that debt.

The unfunded mandate for Social Security is today 3x the total current national debt. That is JUST for social security. We are going to have, on average, 300,000 people PER MONTH going on Social Security for the next 19 years. We are only creating 100,000 new jobs. Most of those are low paying service jobs and can not fund the social security payments of 3x as many high earning retirees.

This is going to get really nasty, folks.
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Post by Elderberry » Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:30 am

geekster wrote:Actually, china isn't funding that debt. It is people who are not yet even old enough to work that will have to repay it, and they are the ones ultimately funding it. We are spending our children's and grandchildren's earnings now. They are going to have to repay that debt.

The unfunded mandate for Social Security is today 3x the total current national debt. That is JUST for social security. We are going to have, on average, 300,000 people PER MONTH going on Social Security for the next 19 years. We are only creating 100,000 new jobs. Most of those are low paying service jobs and can not fund the social security payments of 3x as many high earning retirees.

This is going to get really nasty, folks.
Well, yes and no. If you notice the chart, it becomes obvious that social security has a huge surplus (at this time) which the government is now borrowing from to cover OTHER NON SOCIAL SECURITY EXPENSES. Social Security is viable for at least the next 30 years, after that, it is still viable. However it will only be able to afford to pay a lesser benefit amount. You are misguided to think it is social security is the cause of our budget problems.

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Post by can't sit still » Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:12 am

jk, good thread and good chart. You have to keep in mind that the funds from SS have already been spent. SS holds $ 7.1 trillion in non-negotiable notes from treasury. They aren't regular treasury bonds. The money is gone. Here's an additional chart that shows a good perspective on quantity rather then ownership.
http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/wp-c ... _20101.gif
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Post by Elderberry » Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:24 am

can't sit still wrote:jk, good thread and good chart. You have to keep in mind that the funds from SS have already been spent. SS holds $ 7.1 trillion in non-negotiable notes from treasury. They aren't regular treasury bonds. The money is gone. Here's an additional chart that shows a good perspective on quantity rather then ownership.
http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/wp-c ... _20101.gif
Thanks.

I will be the first to admit that I am no financial expert. However I do read a lot from a wide variety of sources. Though your chart may be accurate, and granted, we are spending way too much money; it doesn't take into consideration some of the important data such as ratios of debt to GDP, and other economic factors.

So, though I believe there is a problem, and acknowledge that we need to eliminate (I'd settle for reduce) the debt and balance the budget; I don't believe we are doomed to default. At least not if congress has the courage to act decisively on serious budget reforms and does it soon.

Oh, and I also do not like the fact that we are borrowing money from pension trust funds and social security to finance our debt. I think this should be illegal.
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Post by TomServo » Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:52 am

Lets file for Bankruptcy, and sue Europe for damages.
anything worth doing is worth overdoing..

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Post by ygmir » Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:03 am

TomServo wrote:Lets file for Bankruptcy, and sue Europe for damages.
perfect!!!
Oh, and I also do not like the fact that we are borrowing money from pension trust funds and social security to finance our debt. I think this should be illegal.
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Post by TomServo » Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:14 am

Even better! Sell our elected officials to China for slave labor, at one million a pop!
anything worth doing is worth overdoing..

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Post by ygmir » Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:19 am

TomServo wrote:Even better! Sell our elected officials to China for slave labor, at one million a pop!
yeah, like they could work........and, like they'd be wanted for that.......


now, if we sold them to a tannery there............
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Post by TomServo » Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:23 am

They could be stuffed, and put in a museum. I wouldnt be embarassed!
anything worth doing is worth overdoing..

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Post by can't sit still » Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:26 am

I read an article somewhere that claimed that our national debt was equal to the costs of the wars over the last few decades. We already know that the Viet-Nam war was a big contributer to America's going off the gold standard. Along with the gold standard, we also threw out fiscal discipline.
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Post by Elderberry » Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:00 am

can't sit still wrote:I read an article somewhere that claimed that our national debt was equal to the costs of the wars over the last few decades. We already know that the Viet-Nam war was a big contributer to America's going off the gold standard. Along with the gold standard, we also threw out fiscal discipline.
Everybody keeps harping on the gold standard, but the truth is there isn't enough gold on the plane to actually back the actual amount of money in the world's economy...he'll there's not enough to even back the US Dollar. I was just listening to a podcast explaining all of this last night.

http://www.thenation.com/audio/157757/b ... d-standard

The answer to the war expenses, and possible to future wars, would simply institute a war tac of, say 10% of earnings on everybody. The reasons this would work should be obvious.

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Post by adam link » Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:18 am

or perhaps we should evolve the current relations with china into a cold war, and then a hot war by proxy and then we get to keep Formosa and fuck them on the Money we owe all at the same time...


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Post by theCryptofishist » Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:26 am

I like the war tax too. and maybe some up front collection of money for the VA and the GI Bill as well. I don't like war, and I don't like the ones we have right now, but I hate that people are coming back to the conditions that they have at home.

Oh fuck, I guess this was already a political thread, but I just made it worse for myself.
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Post by can't sit still » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:22 pm

jk, the plan is not to back the currency but, to use gold as a reference. There is tons written about different ideas to do this . FOFOA writes that gold will do a one-time reevaluation to $ 46,000 an ounce. Then, it will be enough to back the dollar. If you invested the time to read the stuff from Another and Friend of Another and friend of friend of another [FOFOA} you would find that he is more knowledgeable than 98% of other writers. It remains to be seen if he is correct.
http://fofoa.blogspot.com/

Rather than funding the wars with a tax, we should just STOP them. Viet Nam was pointless. WMD in Iraq was just a lie. We're on the verge of trashing Pakistan and Yemen. We trashed Afghanistan for no good reason. Pipeline and poppies.

We're trying to maintain the whole world as out exclusive trade zone. China isn't too keen on that idea.
http://www.theage.com.au/national/chine ... 19rcw.html
We have to cut out this empire shit.
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Post by Elderberry » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:46 pm

can't sit still wrote:jk, the plan is not to back the currency but, to use gold as a reference. There is tons written about different ideas to do this . FOFOA writes that gold will do a one-time reevaluation to $ 46,000 an ounce. Then, it will be enough to back the dollar. If you invested the time to read the stuff from Another and Friend of Another and friend of friend of another [FOFOA} you would find that he is more knowledgeable than 98% of other writers. It remains to be seen if he is correct.
http://fofoa.blogspot.com/

Rather than funding the wars with a tax, we should just STOP them. Viet Nam was pointless. WMD in Iraq was just a lie. We're on the verge of trashing Pakistan and Yemen. We trashed Afghanistan for no good reason. Pipeline and poppies.

We're trying to maintain the whole world as out exclusive trade zone. China isn't too keen on that idea.
http://www.theage.com.au/national/chine ... 19rcw.html
We have to cut out this empire shit.
Again, to my way of thinking simply "adjusting" the valuation of gold would be no better a solution than the way things are now. I'd like to just arbitrarily adjust the value of my house too...oh wait, that just happened. see my point?

Regarding the war tax, stopping the wars is exactly the point. If you had to directly pay a fee every time the govt. wanted to go to war, how long do you think people would put up with it? Additionally, we should reinstate the draft. Right now most of the country is too divorced from the realities of waging war. But again, if everybody knew that they would have to pay for it directly, and that they or their kids would have to be the ones fighting it, you can be sure there would be a lot less war.

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Post by can't sit still » Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:41 pm

OK, I won't argue with that. The Bretton-Woods agreement was written so that the U.S. dollar would be the reference because it was backed by gold. . All other currencies would be referenced to it. There was no possible way to know the value of a given currency.
It's a different world now. One of the top 10 aps for handheld comms is the currency converter.
There is so much finance and commerce info floating around that it is easy to figure the relative values of a currency. COMEX does that every day and trades 3---4 $ trillion a day. The day is soon to come when the world won't need a reserve currency. The dollar is being rejected wherever possible. As the dollar is increasingly shunned, the relative value of U.S. debt will decrease.
Investors are pulling out many billions of $ every week from bond funds. QE 4 is already being talked about. We will reach a point where nobody will hold U.S. bonds. They will revert to their value as paper. China knows this.
When the U.S. defaults, there will be painful haircuts. It will depend on whether or not you are a voter or have anything that we need.
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Post by Elderberry » Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:14 pm

While it is possible that the US could default, I don't think it is probable. I guess you can go on being the pessimist and I am happy to continue to be the optomistic cheer leader. Only time will tell who is right.

Frankly, if I were as pessimistic about the economic state of our country as you are, I don't think I could even pull it together to want to go to Burning Man. I might as well buy my first gun and end it all right now! Thank goodness for rose colored glasses.

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Post by Trishntek » Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:53 pm

RETROFROLIC, the place of Pink, Pain and Pleasure!
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Post by Elderberry » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:51 am

Trishntek wrote:http://usdebtclock.org/
Depressing. But I like the way it's presented.

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Post by can't sit still » Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:40 am

jk "Frankly, if I were as pessimistic about the economic state of our country as you are, I don't think I could even pull it together to want to go to Burning Man"
jk, with no prejudice meant,,, STOP reading.
You can go about your daily life without knowing this shit. It is possible that things will work out,, after a fashion. History does not favor this outcome.

If you have no problem with hard work, just try to hook up with people who are positive about getting through this. These people have some good ideas; http://www.ic.org/
Should things turn bad, you only need to distance yourself from those who don't have a clue how to take action [positive],,,, not the killing shit.

Food prices are going up a bit and there are already riots in many countries. This is NOTHING. MANY countries have been subsidizing food for their poor. Some of these countries are going broke and have stopped the subsidies. That is the source of the current problems. The real shortages should start sometime around June.

You could find an intentional community in your area and do a bit of volunteering. That way, you'll have a foot in the door if things turn for the worse. You might even meet some cool people.
When I read all the negative shit, I file it away. It colors my attitude only minimally. I can't forward a lot of stuff to most people I know. They freak out and lose all their sleep. They're better off not knowing the problems. It's safer for everybody.
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