Bonnarude

[junglesmacks]

... we risk ending up Coachellized and Bonnarood.

(if I may suggest "Bonnarude"...)

As per the statement above.. I'm curious.

What is the direct resentment to major commercialized music festivals such as those named above? Does their sheer existence in someway devalue or taint Burning Man? Is there something wrong with attending one? Can there not be an allowed appreciation for both apples AND oranges?

What's your opinion?

[AntiM]

They are poor training grounds for Burning Man and send us inferior Sparkleponies? MOOP generators? Spectators who are incapable of being one with the dust?

[Joshua!]

I find it preferable to spend both my time and money on events where I'm not consuming a product. I love live music, and enjoy many shows, but the big festivals feel empty. I guess I've passed the age where I need to be surrounded by 1000's of other people with eyes glazed, watching trained monkeys perform on command.

Wait... I am going to Burning Man. Gotta work on my trained monkey costume...

Joshua

[junglesmacks]

They are poor training grounds for Burning Man and send us inferior Sparkleponies? MOOP generators? Spectators who are incapable of being one with the dust?

..but couldn't you say that about many different venues and/or environments? To me that's like saying that the West should burn in hell because you send us yoga practicing, granola crunching, VW driving, Apple using hippies. (Well, ok.. maybe you should..)

Generalizations suck.. but it's human nature to make them.

My point/feeling is that as long as we don't try to draw parallels to them and treat them as separate entities altogether, then I personally don't see what the problem is. I try in general in life to appreciate each situation as it's own entity and appreciate it for what it is and what it gives me as an experience.

Yeah, there's commercialism as Bonnaroo. There's also some INCREDIBLE music for 5 days straight in some beautiful country side. Yeah, there's some stupid frat boys and art vandalism at Burning Man.. but there's fucking kick ass art and a community that I love among a bajillion other things. New York is great for it's food and stuff to do and the general experience.. for a few days.. and then (to me) it's way to many people and congested and YUCK!

Yup, I went to Bonnaroo this year. Yup, it was crazy commercialized. I had zero interest in seeing the Red Hot Chili Peppers play on some mega stage in front of 70k people. But.. there were many afternoons spent laying in the grass with the girl freely smoking a nice *tobacco splif listening to some incredible music from bands and genres that I wouldn't ever seek out normally. Awesome live bluegrass with live banjos and fiddles.. jam music by Afrocubism.. folky rock.. you name it.. I had some great days in the beautiful Tennessee mountains. Is that wrong?

"Glazed over eyes watching trained monkeys".. sure, you'll find that anywhere. Ever been to Opulent Temple on a Friday night? You may have been and that's all fine and good.. to each their own.. but I'd rather be out walking the open playa in an LED light suit tripping my nuts off playing with art and people.

My thoughts are appreciate what you can from each experience and place in life and don't let it taint the rest of it or cause ill will.. as that stuff will just eat you up inside.

[Ugly Dougly]

We must "protect" the unschooled masses of sparkleponies from learning how much "better" these other festivals are, in terms of naked chicks, free alcohol, lenient drug use, sex parties and gee, spiritual enlightenment, compared to that nasty, dirty, event way off in the desert, filled with mean, cynical I think they call themselves "Burners".

Go to Bonaroo, Coachella or Sparklepalooza, not Burning Man. Whee!

[junglesmacks]

We must "protect" the unschooled masses of sparkleponies from learning how much "better" these other festivals are, in terms of naked chicks, free alcohol, lenient drug use, sex parties and gee, spiritual enlightenment, compared to that nasty, dirty, event way off in the desert, filled with mean, cynical I think they call themselves "Burners".

Go to Bonaroo, Coachella or Sparklepalooza, not Burning Man. Whee!

Ok ok.. so we're getting somewhere here.


It's the stereotypical person that attends these festivals that the resentment is towards.. not the festival itself? Would you say that's a fair statement?

[AntiM]

There are parallels, both good and bad, not based not on the music, but on acceptable or tolerated behavior. While the good of other events may be under-appreciated, it would be wise to note and hence take steps to avoid the bad which is not desired at TTITD. Nip it, nip it in the bud! Head off any trend to take Burning Man out of "art festival" territory into "music show event" happenings. A little snark drives the point home. Not a communication style everyone cares to engage in, but not unexpected in this environment.

Humans categorize, we are hardwired to do so.

This is just a theory, as I avoid the sound camps and would never consider attending a music festival. Even fairs and carnivals and Pride gatherings and large concerts put me on edge anymore. Crowds. The Burn Night crowd does not excite me, I get tripwire flaky unless I'm in the perceived security of the Great Circle. (come on fire conclave....) Heck, even our mellow regional can put me on edge when the big sound goes overboard for a night or two or three. So that's me, and mocking commercial events which downplay community interactivity and responsibility comes easily.

[trilobyte]

I cringe a little bit when I see/hear about bad things happening at other events, but I don't resent other festivals. Sure, they're miles away from what Burning Man is all about, but I think that's okay. There's room for coexistence, and I think that as they evolve and mutate they create more opportunities for Burning Man artists and performers (as they build up their art budgets, beef up auxiliary stages and walk-around performers, have more participation, etc). For many people in defaultia, they're a great time and as far out of their normal lives as they care to get. For others, it's a step in the right direction (gateway event?).

[Bounce530]

Check out my topic from last week-
http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=56026

It was gross...so much so pushing of flyers in your face (Vegas hooker card method), frat boy types, and after seeing the aftermath of a guy getting curb stomped and laying on the ground with his head opened up, "but its cool, cause he was in the mosh pit" it made me cringe to think that the kids that were at that festival are going to want to come to TTITD, and treat it the same way.

[Ugly Dougly]

It's the stereotypical person that attends these festivals that the resentment is towards.. not the festival itself? Would you say that's a fair statement?

I don't know, I've never been. But they deserve some of the excess publicity that Burning Man is getting.

[piehole]

I've been to Coachella twice, in 06 and '10. Coachella '10 was one of the best weekends of my life, but after late 2010, these sorts of events kind of lost their appeal with me. I've been to EDC twice (before it moved to Vegas) '09 and '10. '09 was the first massive electronic music event I've ever been to, so you could imagine how high I felt during and after that, but '10 was a different story. Some personal things happened during EDC '10 that opened my eyes and that's when I realized that these types of events were NOT for me. I wanted something more interactive and intimate.

So a friend of mine, Ant, had constantly invited me to go to these "burner-community" events, and one day I finally said yes to one (I had to because it was his brother's wedding). Anyways, it was a sleepover event at my now friend Tony's house, which is called the Fire Garden. The event is called Sundaze, and he holds them every couple of months or so. That day changed my life. I was immersed into a community of beautiful, sarcastic, party animals. I began to come to these events more often, and then went to my first renegade party out in the desert, a Bramble Republic party. Then I went to Lightning in a Bottle '11, still a commercial event, but far less of the norm of your Coachellas or EDCs. Another beautiful weekend spent camping, meeting neighbors, making new friends, interacting with art, artists, falling in love, etc. I had such an incredible moment of growth drinking tea someone whom I've never met before, that person introduced me to Thich Nhat Hanh and Buddhism. I will never forget that day! These are the kinds of moments you would most likely never experience at a Coachella, an EDC or a Bonnaroo. I personally believe that Burning Man will also be full of these moments and other, different instances of personal growth and challenges I have yet to face and can't wait to experience for the first time and (hopefully) not the last time.

There's nothing wrong with these events, its just that they just don't appeal to me at all anymore.

[AntiM]

I cringe a little bit when I see/hear about bad things happening at other events, but I don't resent other festivals. Sure, they're miles away from what Burning Man is all about, but I think that's okay. There's room for coexistence, and I think that as they evolve and mutate they create more opportunities for Burning Man artists and performers (as they build up their art budgets, beef up auxiliary stages and walk-around performers, have more participation, etc). For many people in defaultia, they're a great time and as far out of their normal lives as they care to get. For others, it's a step in the right direction (gateway event?).

Ah, but who comes through this particular gate and what baggage do they carry?

[wh..sh]

Check out my topic from last week-
http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=56026

It was gross...so much so pushing of flyers in your face (Vegas hooker card method), frat boy types, and after seeing the aftermath of a guy getting curb stomped and laying on the ground with his head opened up, "but its cool, cause he was in the mosh pit" it made me cringe to think that the kids that were at that festival are going to want to come to TTITD, and treat it the same way.

Maybe these kids are the ones who need burning man the most (and the principles).

Sure, its a confused and a lost generation. I want to give up on them. Then I distinctly remember this conversation a kid, professing to me about how burning man has given him structure in his life.
And in a naive way, I have hope in the inherent nature of most humans to do good.

Really, what good are your principles if you don't pass it down to the next generation?

[AntiM]

Burning Man or the military.... easier to get into the military, and even that is hard.

[Joshua!]

When I walk out the door, on my way to the man, I've been preparing for months. The participation that culminates during the burn is interwoven into the fabric of my being. The experience that I have is supported on the foundation of my life, my energy, and my creation.

When I go to a show, I prepare nothing. I consume the performance like a tasty burrito, enjoying the immediacy of the experience, but add nothing to the plate. I take it home, digest it, and it slowly turns into a nice poo in my brain, flushed away to be replaced by something else.

They two (types of) events are vastly different, and I'm not interested in the latter. Once the folks make it to the burn, that's when I'll begin the outreach and interaction.

J!

[Eric]

My point/feeling is that as long as we don't try to draw parallels to them and treat them as separate entities altogether, then I personally don't see what the problem is.

One of the problems is that the media doesn't make this fine distinction- Burning Man is presented in a lot of articles as a great big party with huge Sound Camps (or DJ stages, however they refer to them) and in the last few years is getting seen as part of the "Ibiza-Coachella-Bonarroo-Etc" EDM circuit. How many newbie posts do we see saying they've been to "other festivals", referring to one of those, as if that gave them preparation for what the playa can throw at them.

The comparison is something the outside world is creating for Burning Man, and I think as it nears a tipping point to actually become more about "that" you're seeing more Burners push back to save what they love.

[Simon of the Playa]

i dont do "Festies" unless i'm working them.

Burning Man is Not a festival in my mind, it is an Event, made possible by the participants, and is not a "show".

YOU are the show at Burning Man. ALL of the Playa is a Stage...

coachella, bonnaroo and ultra, whatever....i would never pay money or waste my time going to these shit shows unless im getting paid to do so because i'm working.

plain and simple, i have no desire whatsoever to be a part of that mainstream melting pot of the Mediocre.

Burning Man has NOTHING to do with these concerts, festivals or whatever you want to call them.

if it was, i wouldnt spend so much of my life, money and energy being involved with it.

One is a TV show, trite, predictable and ultimately a vehicle to sell product, even if you get some mindless pleasure out of watching it....i have no problem with consuming fluff, if thats what turns you on.

however..

Burning Man is Life...

Never Confuse the Two.

[Simon of the Playa]

and let me clarify something too.

i enjoy working the festivals because i get paid to build stuff and then i get to listen to my favorite DJ's up close, and from the production side.

its a fun job, i enjoy it.

what i dont enjoy is the flagrant disregard for pretty much all of the ten principles as a matter of course, but it is what it is, its a capitalist system, and people behave as they have been taught, or not taught as the case may be.

each does have its place, but BM is Unique in so many ways i Bristle at the comparison...

there is no comparison.

EDM and Dance Music are Big Money Now, that is a fact. i do not begrudge anyone any success, in fact i am happy to see so many of my friends finally getting the recognition and financial rewards they have worked years and decades to achieve.

i love shaking my butt and dancing, i am glad that others do to.

perhaps the "festies" can learn from us, it's a nice thought, but then we'd be talking about dramatic social change on a large scale, and i think that will take some time, but it's not impossible.

i do think it is of the utmost importance to distinctly separate the two worlds because they are indeed, at least for the time being, two different animals.

[trilobyte]

@Simon - If you work the festival circuit, you're in no position to look down upon them - because you're the person who makes the event what it is. Don't like how the festivals are run, get more involved and do a better job.

@AntiM - I say do what we can to welcome people with open arms. Show 'em the right way. I know far more good people and amazing artists who came from the electronic dance music scene or the festival circuit than I do other circles - that's not to say one group is better than the other or some other group should instead be shunned, just that there is quite a bit of value in those cultures.

[Simon of the Playa]

Trilo, i can and do look down at alot of the spectators as they flippantly litter while sucking down 8$ bottles of water and using the ATM machines that exist every five feet, and no matter what i say or do, i'm not going to change an entire culture of swine.

like i said, it is what it is, there is no impetus, no ownership involved with these festivals and what i often see disgusts me.

(although i do admit i like shambhala in canada, I have never attended, but from what i have seen and heard they seem to have their shit together)


Anyway, is it my Job to tell these kids that their entire belief systems are fucked and that they are doomed to lives of false profits and pseudo Happiness? That their blatant disregard for anything but themselves is somehow curable with the right words? i have enough to do, i am a stage builder and manager and work 18 hour days, i have nothing to do with anything except that. I Do my part of the Job the best i can, and can do no more, literally, so to say "Do a better Job" is meaningless to me. Thats like Blaming the Roadie for Janet Jackson's Nip Slip.

feh...

i wish the circuit would adopt more burning man like attitudes and practices, and i preach it til im blue in the face, but quite frankly, it is indeed pearls before the porcine, and i'd rather not spill seed on fallow ground.

ill save that for the dust.

[theCryptofishist]

Gee. A lot of (hm, what is a little short of angst?...) to do over a silly little through-away pun...
(Do I have to vow to use my verbal ability for "good" or can I just be playful?)

[lemur]

Those fests are like communism or something bad like that

I dont think they have a place ...whether they are enjoyable or not they dont represent anything i enjoy in terms of corporate power... general behavior and intent of people there....

Say no!

[junglesmacks]

Gee. A lot of (hm, what is a little short of angst?...) to do over a silly little through-away pun...
(Do I have to vow to use my verbal ability for "good" or can I just be playful?)

..but it's not, Fishy. It's obviously indicative of something deeper.. that of which I'm finding pretty interesting to hear all sides of.


A question: How many people here have actually attended Coachella or Bonnaroo?

[junglesmacks]

Those fests are like communism or something bad like that

I dont think they have a place ...whether they are enjoyable or not they dont represent anything i enjoy in terms of corporate power... general behavior and intent of people there....

Say no!

Are you also proof positive that Barack Obama is secretly a Muslim on a covert mission to destroy America from the inside out?


Too tired to write a full personal analysis of this. Manana.

[lemur]

Destroy sponsored stages and crazy price gouging etcetc

Fuck that shit

[Simon of the Playa]

everybody has the right to enjoy themselves as they want to.

you also have the right not to like it.

live and let rave.

but, At Burning Man, we try to adhere to certain guidelines, the 10 principles, and all are welcome that do.

out there, well, it's a goddamn free for all, and i for one am very afraid.

[bigbluedoggy]

Anyone who has ever had to wade thru the sea of debris left behind after one of those large music festivals has witnessed firsthand the thoughtless disregard that a large percentage of attendees hold for the world they live in. To think that having someone who comes from that vibe read a pamphlet that they mostly ignored and get a light lecture for 2 minutes at Greeters is going to change how they view or interact with their surroundings is ludicrous. There are many fine people who attend large music festivals and I am not getting down on them for enjoying them. It's the ones who just don't get it who tarnish the entire image of that scene for me. My opinions remain my own. Disagree at will.

[Simon of the Playa]

total agreement BBD.

it's not everyone who goes to these concerts that i despise, just the worst, but most visible and im afraid, majority demographic.

it's a symptom of our culture, Not EDM or anything else. I'm sure they are just as bad at other genres...simply because they are products of this Nightmare we call Consumerism.


until De-Commidification happens in the hearts and wallets of the General Public, this will continue to be the case.

[wh..sh]

Anyone who has ever had to wade thru the sea of debris left behind after one of those large music festivals has witnessed firsthand the thoughtless disregard that a large percentage of attendees hold for the world they live in. To think that having someone who comes from that vibe read a pamphlet that they mostly ignored and get a light lecture for 2 minutes at Greeters is going to change how they view or interact with their surroundings is ludicrous.

Wow! I really do get an impression that most of you were perfect citizens even through your teen years and early 20s.

@bigbluedoggy - I am from India. People are free to throw litter anywhere at will and one might not find a trash bin for miles (Not to demean it, I love my country but its a fact). I used to be this crazy fool who approached random people tossing trash and tell them not to do so. I still do.
I talk about how it's "our" responsibility to keep the country clean. yes, preach much? Some laughed at me, some asked me to mind my business, and some politely listened to me. If I politely approached 20 people, maybe one would listen to me. Sure, its not "changing the world" or "cleaning up swines". But I am ok with that kind of attainable goal and results.

Guess what? MOOP is not a new concept and certainly not discovered by burning man. People have been cleaning for millions of years.
Most people who actively involve themselves probably have never heard of burning man.
Some need an events like burning man for education and motivation.
Some will never change and never care.
There are all kinds. I am glad that an event is promoting that kind of civic sense, but even that took years to evolve.

I am a strong believer that any change in culture can only be brought by educating the youth.
Get involved in their lives. Be a mentor, role model. Lead by example.
Sadly, there is a lingering question of "Why should I?". My answer is duty.

*turns off mic and walks out*

[junglesmacks]