Check this out!

souldancer · Post by **souldancer** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 7:07 pm

Ok, I'm a total dork, but I've been waiting for this display to go up in Trader Joe's for 2 weeks now!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v286/ ... ust027.jpg

It makes me smile every time I walk by it at work. There should be another one up tomorrow, and I'll take a picture of that one as well.

Icepack · Post by **Icepack** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 7:27 pm

souldancer wrote:Ok, I'm a total dork, but I've been waiting for this display to go up in Trader Joe's for 2 weeks now!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v286/ ... ust027.jpg

It makes me smile every time I walk by it at work. There should be another one up tomorrow, and I'll take a picture of that one as well.

Awesome! Just went to my local TJ's tonight to do some shopping. We're too far away to get any Burning Man displays but glad they are into it.

madmatt · Post by **madmatt** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 3:23 pm

Conspiracy theorists, START YOUR ENGINES!!!...GO!

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 3:55 pm

Holy cow! That reminded me that I need to buy up some Pepsi(tm), Doritos(tm), Slim Jim's(tm), and definately a bunch of Budweiser(tm) for the trip.

I'm going to do a lot of walking, so maybe a good pair of Nikes(tm) and a Eddie Bauer(tm) jogging suit would be sweet.

I'm glad to see at least SOMEONE smart enough to use Burning Man(tm) as a marketing gimmick.

I'm hoping the sarcasm wasn't too subtle here.

SilkenTofu · Post by **SilkenTofu** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 4:02 pm

Rob the Wop wrote:Holy cow! That reminded me that I need to buy up some Pepsi(tm), Doritos(tm), Slim Jim's(tm), and definately a bunch of Budweiser(tm) for the trip.

I'm going to do a lot of walking, so maybe a good pair of Nikes(tm) and a Eddie Bauer(tm) jogging suit would be sweet.

I'm glad to see at least SOMEONE smart enough to use Burning Man(tm) as a marketing gimmick.

I'm hoping the sarcasm wasn't too subtle here.

(sound of the hammer hitting the nail on the head)

no..not at all Rob.

souldancer · Post by **souldancer** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 5:33 pm

Jeez, I was just trying to share something I thought was pretty cool. We get A LOT of business from burners as it is, and we thought it would be something neat to do. Jeez. The displays wouldn't have even been put up if there weren't 3 employees going. It was OUR idea. Not the stores. I'm not trying to sell a damn thing.

Lighten up.

Fat SAM · Post by **Fat SAM** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 6:05 pm

I don't think that Rachel was trying to sell anything.

Is it really that cool to take something free (in spirit) and great like Burning Man and be so elitist about it? I've seen on a number of posts people have said "Hey, I found this at (insert store here). Go there and get it." Rarely do they get dogged for it. Rachel wasn't even saying to go there. She just thought it was neat to look at.

I think that Bartering Mel's (name changed to avoid offending those who take themselves too seriously) should be praised for acknowledging the fact that Burners shop there. They're willing to step up and say 'hey, these people come here and we appreciate them.' Places like Wal-Mart (oh crap, I said Wal-Mart and now I'm going to get flamed...) set out displays that consist of glowsticks, dust masks, water, and goggles (it's a real display - I saw it yesterday) and noone walks into Wal-Mart, sees that, and says 'man, screw Wal-Mart.' I think she was just pointing out that she thought the displays were neat. I bet when Burners (other than you guys, obviously) walk into Bartering Mel's and see the displays they all look at each other and wink and feel good.

Before you start knocking people for being pro-consumerism, you should throw away your cell phones.

Not trying to start a fight - just think maybe you fellas ought to ease off a tad.

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 6:05 pm

souldancer wrote:Jeez, I was just trying to share something I thought was pretty cool. We get A LOT of business from burners as it is, and we thought it would be something neat to do. Jeez. The displays wouldn't have even been put up if there weren't 3 employees going. It was OUR idea. Not the stores. I'm not trying to sell a damn thing.

Lighten up.

I see that you understand the intent of the 'no brand names' rule.

BTW- did you ask BMORG for an endorsement?

So let me get this straight. You use a copyrighted logo, of an organization that specifically forbids major brand names from using said logo as an endorsement, and you think it's cool and I should lighten up.

...

And then post the image of you using an illegal endorsement on the one bulletin board run by the people that would care.

...

B+ on the intent.
F on reality checking.
Do you not get that this is against the basic tenants of BMORG's view of the event?

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 6:12 pm

Fat SAM wrote:I don't think that Rachel was trying to sell anything.

Is it really that cool to take something free (in spirit) and great like Burning Man and be so elitist about it? I've seen on a number of posts people have said "Hey, I found this at (insert store here). Go there and get it." Rarely do they get dogged for it. Rachel wasn't even saying to go there. She just thought it was neat to look at.

I think that Bartering Mel's (name changed to avoid offending those who take themselves too seriously) should be praised for acknowledging the fact that Burners shop there. They're willing to step up and say 'hey, these people come here and we appreciate them.' Places like Wal-Mart (oh crap, I said Wal-Mart and now I'm going to get flamed...) set out displays that consist of glowsticks, dust masks, water, and goggles (it's a real display - I saw it yesterday) and noone walks into Wal-Mart, sees that, and says 'man, screw Wal-Mart.' I think she was just pointing out that she thought the displays were neat. I bet when Burners (other than you guys, obviously) walk into Bartering Mel's and see the displays they all look at each other and wink and feel good.

Before you start knocking people for being pro-consumerism, you should throw away your cell phones.

Not trying to start a fight - just think maybe you fellas ought to ease off a tad.

Then why not ask Wal-Mart to put up a display for Burning Man camping supplies? Trader Joe's IS a supermarket. IE- corporate. Or why not have Gatorade advertise itself as the perfect drink for Burning Man on local radio stations? Starbucks endorsements for center cafe?

If it was a small business- I doubt anyone would have a problem. Putting a display up like that in a Trader Joe's is a different story.

souldancer · Post by **souldancer** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 6:17 pm

What you wrote was over the top rude, is all. Not necessary to be quite so snotty.

The three burners...(wait is that word copyrighted too?) that work there didn't have your views at all, we just wanted to show people we are a part of the community.

If Larry Harvey wants us to take them down, by all mean we will. I'm sure he's capapble of fighting his own battles.

SilkenTofu · Post by **SilkenTofu** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 8:39 pm

Sorry if I seemed to be jumping on the bandwagon....I would have understood if souldancer would have explained that she(I hope it is a she) and her other burning co-workers were behind the display. (just don't try to burn it in the store before you go)

When I saw the picture, it just made me feel like Trader Joe's was using Burningman for marketing to a niche that tends to pride itself on self reliance. Jumping the shark to get to the $$$.

We all have to shop somewhere, I would be a liar if I said that I was making my own glow sticks, brewing my own beer, and jerkying my own beef (no comments on that one please).

I still see Rob's point, but I also see that it could have been brought up more tactfully.

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 9:47 pm

souldancer wrote:The three burners...(wait is that word copyrighted too?) that work there didn't have your views at all, we just wanted to show people we are a part of the community.

OK, I was somewhat rude. Sorry about that. The reason is that this is a prime example of what some of the veteran burners call 'Disneyfication' of the event. Whether you friends intended it or not- they turned Burning Man into a marketing ploy. The sign says:

"Burning Man just wouldn't feel right without Beer and Snacks
Oranjeboom $4.99 Peanut Butter Filled Pretzels $2.99"

Then goes on describe reasons why these products would be great for Burning Man. How can you possibley say that this is not using the Burning Man logo and event to sell a specific product? And why does Trader Joes get a corner on using the logo and name? If you were to watch a Pepsi, Nike, or Starbucks commercial making the same claim, would you be pissed? What if they aired on MTV? How could you get pissed if the Northwest Pacific's high end answer to Safeway uses it in the middle of one of their stores?

precipitate · Post by **precipitate** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 10:54 pm

> I'm not trying to sell a damn thing.

Um. Bullshit.

But, I'm not one of the commerce-nazis who believe that somehow
Burning Man occurs in a monetary-free zone. And you're not trying to
make a market where it doesn't exist. So, like, whatever.

But be sure to sign up with one of Larry's regional franchises for
extra-special goodies!

Badger · Post by **Badger** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 11:05 pm

If Larry Harvey wants us to take them down, by all mean we will. I'm sure he's capapble of fighting his own battles.

Hate to be a stick in the mud but Trader Joe's just might get a call from BM. The project is - and has for some time been - pretty sensitive to to the use of the Man as far as commercial/commerce goes. I've no doubt that the three people involved had nothing but good intentions when they put the figure up but consider the diversity of views/perceptions here and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the association (direct or indirect) with a retail business engenders a LOT of passion AND confusion.

How many folks who walk into Trader Joe's will be aware that the display in question was the idea of three employees intent on fostering good vibes and how many will go in there and think the very opposite.

Just my .02

Lark · Post by **Lark** » Wed Aug 25, 2004 6:26 am

Badger, you're going soft.

Souldancer/Icepack, I'd like to introduce you to someone.

Clueless, meet Brutal. Brutal, meet Clueless. Why don't you spend some time getting to know each other?

Fat SAM · Post by **Fat SAM** » Wed Aug 25, 2004 6:42 am

Clearly, she's done the eplaya community a service by keeping the busy bodies occupied on this thread.

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Wed Aug 25, 2004 7:26 am

Regardless of intention:

The name "Burning Man" and all images of the Man, city layout, lampposts, street signs and commissioned theme artwork are protected under copyright and intellectual property laws, and cannot be used for commercial purposes without written permission of Burning Man.

from: http://www.burningman.com/press/pressRandR.html

Sorry.

souldancer · Post by **souldancer** » Wed Aug 25, 2004 7:54 am

Ok, so we can change it from "Burning Man(tm) wouldn't...." to "Camping in the desert for a week..." Regardless, see what happens when we try to do something nice for other burners? We get burned. It's not for the benefit of Trader Joe's, they will sell stuff to people camping in the desert for a week regardless of what displays go up. Yes, the display is targeted towards burners (FOR Burners....FROM Burners). Yes, Trader Joe's SELLS stuff. Yes, I work for Trader Joe's. Trader Joe's WILL NOT however have a booth at our campout in the desert. And it was NOT my intention to come on here and tell you to go buy stuff from TJ's, it was to show something I (and ESPECIALLY the girl [a fellow burner] who took a lot of time making the displays) thought was cool. I didn't tell anyone to go there.

Anyhow, I'm so tired of defending myself. I was just trying to share something. And look what happens. Everyone gets all up in arms over something that seems pretty silly, to me. If it's such a huge deal, by all means, contact Larry Harvey and have him ask that it comes down.

I hope I don't get grief for not covering up the logo on my walking shoes...

Ivy · Post by **Ivy** » Wed Aug 25, 2004 8:23 am

If it's such a huge deal, by all means, contact Larry Harvey and have him ask that it comes down.

What makes you think that the media & licensing team hasn't been contacted already?

Look, I understand your intentions. You're excited about BM and you want to share. That's cool. But basically, this is akin to being told not to do something (the policies are clearly posted on this website) and then doing it anyway. IMO that's disrespectful. Maybe you didn't know better or you weren't aware of the policy; that's understandable but not justifiable. Now you know.

I do think your guys' recreation of the man is a very nice piece. However, I think there are more appropriate venues to share it than TJ's.

Rian Jackson · Post by **Rian Jackson** » Wed Aug 25, 2004 9:13 am

Hey Souldancer -

Reading over the responses to your post, I don't think that anyone was attacking your motives. Just choices. And I wouldn't take it personally that people have come across strongly about it, especially that the as-commerce-free-as-possible part is so important to so many people. That said, it's not like playa prep is ever free of commerce. And hell, on a local level we vocally advocate non-corporate burner owned shops.

It's probably hard to see it from where you are standing (I know the one myself) but they are right and it's probably best to let it go with a few things in mind:
1) your art is beautiful - maybe you can display it elsewhere?
2) i think most people here really appreciate your enthusiasm
3) avoiding corporate america is often harder than people realise.

Hope this won't discourage you from doing (corporate free) art in the future. See you at the meet and greet?

And hey, thanks for reaching out to the community.... even if it didn't go over as planned.

Trishya333 · Post by **Trishya333** » Wed Aug 25, 2004 9:19 am

I personally think it's a great pic and have sent it on to all my friends who are going. No politics here, just thanks! :wink:

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Wed Aug 25, 2004 9:29 am

Actually, maybe there is some good that can come of this.

Trader Joe's is a pretty good store when it comes to retail markets. They tend to be very environmentally conscious, less corporate, and less 'flashy' (marketing) than most. Plus they are located mainly out west, near the event itself.

With the ever-increasing cost of tickets, maybe Trader Joe's and BMORG could reach some kind of deal. Trader Joe's could claim to be the premier vendor of choice for Burning Man, maybe have a very small outlet of some sort in the center cafe. Not intrusive or anything, just sell maybe some environmentally safe, health conscious snacks or drinks. Maybe give out small samples to folks in center camp as gifts. Kinda like Bianca's Smut Shack used to give out grilled cheese sandwhiches to folks. For this privilege, they could give BMORG a yearly stipend that they could use to offset ticket sales. The right deal could shave off $20-40 bucks off all ticket levels.

What do you guys think? Seriously.

Rian Jackson · Post by **Rian Jackson** » Wed Aug 25, 2004 9:42 am

The voices in your head think you need more sleep and less prune juice.

Love ya, host head!

SilkenTofu · Post by **SilkenTofu** » Wed Aug 25, 2004 9:51 am

Rob the Wop wrote:With the ever-increasing cost of tickets, maybe Trader Joe's and BMORG could reach some kind of deal. Trader Joe's could claim to be the premier vendor of choice for Burning Man, maybe have a very small outlet of some sort in the center cafe. Not intrusive or anything, just sell maybe some environmentally safe, health conscious snacks or drinks. Maybe give out small samples to folks in center camp as gifts. Kinda like Bianca's Smut Shack used to give out grilled cheese sandwhiches to folks. For this privilege, they could give BMORG a yearly stipend that they could use to offset ticket sales. The right deal could shave off $20-40 bucks off all ticket levels.

What do you guys think? Seriously.

Not that I would mind the $20 to $40 reduction in ticket price - this would be like opening the flood gates. Where would it end? There are companies with more money that would start to put pressure on the ORG "well you guy let TJ's in there, why not us?"

I'll just pay the extra $20 to $40 not to have that, thank you very much.

Whatever I want from TJ's, I'll bring it out there with me, and whatever I forget will taste all the better when I get back to the default world.

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Wed Aug 25, 2004 9:58 am

Rian Jackson wrote:The voices in your head think you need more sleep and less prune juice.

Love ya, host head!

(Turns around, faces mirror, and waves cane wildly)
"Listen ya whippersnapper, I don't need no sassy lip from you! And who told the voices in my head to be younger than me?!

Gosh dern it, yern infernal internal yapping interupted my morning nap. Where's my baba with my prune juice?!?

<grumble grumble grumble>

Burning Man was better when Trueman was in the office, I tell ya!!"

Rian Jackson · Post by **Rian Jackson** » Wed Aug 25, 2004 10:31 am

rockabye baby................

quit talking in your sleep then.

Tricky · Post by **Tricky** » Wed Aug 25, 2004 10:35 am

hmmm....

I'm certainly planning on stocking up at Trader Joes... hell I do most of my shopping there anyway.

Where's that store located? I wouldn't mind having a look at that display before they recieve their "cease & desist" letter.

Maybe ithat cut-out will make it's way to tha playa after it's taken down.

but getting more to my point; this seems to be a classic case of reality coliding with idealism. Sure Burningman is suppose to be a comerse free zone (except of corurse for ICE & Coffee... try bartering for a latte as centercamp or for that matter bartering for a ticket at the gate) and the efforts made towards achieving that ideal should be applauded.

However, dogmatic adherance to any ideal is gonna have it's short comings, no matter what the initial intent. Consider the very healthy black market that's rather obvious (to me)at burningman. Weither it's drugs or "paying someone back" for provisions, it happens, dispite all the statements to the contrary. I personally don't think it's that bad a thing.

Is that relativism?

We live in a capitalist society and consumerism is rampent. I remember being shocked at the marked increase in Motorolla walkie-talkies and camelbacks that where evident when i returned to the playa in 2000 after skipping a year. No doubt, there are companies out there that are aware of the Burningman demographic.

How many people get their gear at REI?

or get their trucks from Ryder?

The brands that appear on the playa are there because we bring them there. After a week or more in the desert most of us will still return to our homes and the brands we remain loyal to. I sometimes wonder if the vehemence with which this topic is approached is a sort of skewed reflection of "our" collective disempowerment in the face of the overarching consumer culture.

Consider the number of "brands" that are lampooned on the playa: Costco, McDonalds, Ryder and so forth. While there's a definate value in the artistic statements contained there in, the effort still serves the Brand meme's purpose by keeping the logo or institution in the mind. It might even be argued that these lampoons could be doing a greater service to the source brand by introducing the image/meme into the consciousness with-in a new context/frame of reference.

Imagine someone coming home from the burn and trying to explain some great art installation that mocked Ronald McDonald to friends. How many times will the image associations of McDonalds be intermingled with the emotional connections of the burner's experiences, as well as the vicarious experience of the listener? How likely is it that the artist's initial message will override all the associations to Mickey D's with-in the default society? How likely is it that this burner would notice the McDonald's brand or bring it to the attention of another for the sake of that work of art found on the playa but no longer evident in any other context?

Just some fast food for thought . . .

samtzu · Post by **samtzu** » Wed Aug 25, 2004 1:26 pm

I vote with Tricky on this. It would be nice if we could all just 'live off of the land' out on the Playa, but unless you can eat alkalai, drink dust, and have a sun block built into your skin, you're screwed.

Everyone who can live without any corporate contact, raise your hand.

No hands?

Rian Jackson · Post by **Rian Jackson** » Wed Aug 25, 2004 1:41 pm

samtzu wrote: unless you can eat alkalai, drink dust, and have a sun block built into your skin, you're screwed.

Um, Sam, are you trying to tell me you can't? Shit, i knew there was something else i meant to talk to you about before you get there....

samtzu wrote:Everyone who can live without any corporate contact, raise your hand.

No hands?

Ok, here's the thing, Sam - the way this society is built currently, yes, we are all inundated with corporations. Most of the food we put into our mouths is corporate in at least one way, if not many.

However, we have a choice - to start rejecting the commodifaction of every aspect of our lives and the corporate ownership of our very breathing, or to throw up our hands and be ok with it. Sure, we have to recognise that we are heavily influenced by corporations. But that doesn't mean we need to feed into it with our actions and with our complacency.

Could I physcially survive without corporate contact (in this country, that is)? Not now.
Have I experienced situations with very little corporate contact? Yes
Do I envision a world in which corporations won't have more rights than people? You better believe it.

It's a matter of collective will.

samtzu · Post by **samtzu** » Wed Aug 25, 2004 3:47 pm

Rian wrote:

However, we have a choice - to start rejecting the commodifaction of every aspect of our lives and the corporate ownership of our very breathing, or to throw up our hands and be ok with it. Sure, we have to recognise that we are heavily influenced by corporations. But that doesn't mean we need to feed into it with our actions and with our complacency.

Could I physcially survive without corporate contact (in this country, that is)? Not now.
Have I experienced situations with very little corporate contact? Yes
Do I envision a world in which corporations won't have more rights than people? You better believe it.

It's a matter of collective will.

I agree, as you know, having spoken about this, but I'm not a crusader. I object to the knee-jerk reaction ("Corporate, bad--Independent, good!") and obtuse observations that various people have engaged in.

This whole corporate issue is as delicate as (and can be compared to) a brain tumor: it has integrated itself into every fissure and fold in the world, and it will be a very, very very, delicate matter to remove it without destroying the host. To say that we would lose 'certain' functions if 'the entire tumor' was removed, is to understate it; yet if we only are able to remove a little bit at a time, more will grow to take it's place.

The fact that this cancer is killing the host has not escaped me, but the only answer I have come up with to destroy the cancer is too horrifying for me to contemplate (the Biblical solution: Drown/Burn 'em all out and start over again). And the term 'collective will' gives me the dancing fantods. That is the kind of phrasing that was real popular with certain German politicians during the '30's and '40's. Not appealing. A facist answer is unacceptable for me... yet a passive answer is ineffective. What to do? Dunno'.

Anyway... I've gotta' get back to work... if anyone out there can come up with a viable solution that is effective, lets hear it. I'd like to think about it. Maybe even debate it. But, for the most part, I haven't been too impressed with some of the stuff that has been posted on this page, including (especially?) my own.

Check this out!

Check this out!

Re: Check this out!

Ping

Thanks for the pic!