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gigglesnort
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Post by gigglesnort » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:02 pm

sounds like levels of purgatory in catholicism.

Okay kiddoodles, I've got to sleep. I'm worn out. Thanks for the cuddles, puss; and the good story, sparkleytarte; and the good company, know it all; and the good friendship, heli. Love ya love ya love ya this valentines day eve.

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LeChatNoir
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Post by LeChatNoir » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:03 pm

There are really no phenomena that you will encounter in average life that cannot be explained by an educated enough person
True... In enough of an explanation to convince themselves of the rationality of the situation. As humans, we have a need to control things, have them within our realm of comprehension and thus own them in a sense, or at least have dominion over them. But I've been places where there was a felling... a GUT feeling, that could certainly be "explained away" to the mind... but to my gut, it was deeper. My gut and my mind are two separate things to the understanding of my own being.


I’m very intrigued by such things as haints, buggers, and “other-worldly” stuff, and lately, synchronicity... in a big kinda way.
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Ranger Genius
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Post by Ranger Genius » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:06 pm

those things you describe are all at best perceptual defects. Gut feelings and similarly described sensations are physiological reactions created by the mind in response to psychological stimulus. That you see them as an external influence is just a testimony of their effectiveness at achieving the goal for which they were evolved.

When you talk about your gut, or your experiences of synchronicity, what you're really talking about is the point of interaction between your conscious and subconscious.
“We cross our bridges when we come to them and burn them behind us, with nothing to show for our progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a presumption that once our eyes watered.”

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Post by sparkletarte » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:08 pm

Well, RG, like Rummy said, there are unknown unknowns. We know how to measure what we know how to measure. But we are discovering new minuter levels of atoms, are we not? And I heard on the radio today that there is a star which has just been discoved that is zooming away from our universe into the black void and the astronomers can't quite figure out what is going on- nothing is drawing it away and nothing seems to be propelling it either.

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LeChatNoir
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Post by LeChatNoir » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:09 pm

That you see them as an external influence is just a testimony of their effectiveness at achieving the goal for which they were evolved.
In your mind, yes. Not in mine. I'm not convinced of it being that simple just yet.
why can't the energy be measured?
Cause we haven't yet figured out what to measure it with, I suspect.
When you talk about your gut, or your experiences of synchronicity, what you're really talking about is the point of interaction between your conscious and subconscious.
Now you may be onto something that overlaps what each of us is saying.
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Ranger Genius
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Post by Ranger Genius » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:10 pm

But the crux of the issue is, what is the point of even thinking about things that you don't know you don't know?
“We cross our bridges when we come to them and burn them behind us, with nothing to show for our progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a presumption that once our eyes watered.”

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LeChatNoir
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Post by LeChatNoir » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:13 pm

Hmmm... Perhaps because I'm curious? Perhaps because I wish to understand them and so own them, or at least have dominion over them? don't know... good question.


just a testimony of their effectiveness at achieving the goal for which they were evolved.
Hmmm.. Are you proposing our bodies evolved to fuck with us? Serious question here.
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sparkletarte
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Post by sparkletarte » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:13 pm

Well, hmmm, I'm sure I think about a lot of things I don't know- I just make things up? Uh, I dunno.

Wouldn't that be how new things are discovered?

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LeChatNoir
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Post by LeChatNoir » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:15 pm

And thanks for the story sparkle... I LOVE stories.
Wouldn't that be how new things are discovered?
I'd say yes. curiosity (don’t they say that killed something along the way?)
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Post by sparkletarte » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:16 pm

I don't believe that everything can be explained by science. Science is a changing knowledge- we haven't always known what we know now.

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Post by sparkletarte » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:18 pm

I'm glad you enjoyed the story. I'm not sure how it all came to be, but something is telling me that I need to put more energy towards clearing my new space, so I'm going to do that. Maybe it won't do anything, maybe it will. But obviously, some part of me wants to or else I don't think I would have had that dream and that conversation today.

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Post by sparkletarte » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:19 pm

Okay, I'm off to bed, good sleeps everyone!

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LeChatNoir
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Post by LeChatNoir » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:20 pm

But the crux of the issue is, what is the point of even thinking about things that you don't know you don't know?
Aha!!! Because it’s a challenge... that’s why.


I don't believe that everything can be explained by science
Hmmm... I'd propose that Science is Science.. it's us who are understanding it differently. Put in a different way:

The universe is what it is. It's us who are understanding it in different ways as "we" grow and have a better grasp for it.
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LeChatNoir
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Post by LeChatNoir » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:21 pm

I’d clear it out sparkle... smudge it out in a respectful way and be done with it.
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Ranger Genius
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Post by Ranger Genius » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:21 pm

Since (in my opinion) the whole phenomenon is just being generated by your own mind, setting your mind at ease about it will solve the problem. Just don't pay some mystical quack to do it for you, okay? I hate to see an intelligent person perpetuate the cycle of deceit by rewarding someone who is either a quack, or a well-intentioned-but-deluded individual.
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LeChatNoir
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Post by LeChatNoir » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:22 pm

Just don't pay some mystical quack..
Amen...

if they want money for it... they’re a quack. Period.
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Ranger Genius
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Post by Ranger Genius » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:22 pm

There's a difference between a challenge and an exercise in futility.
“We cross our bridges when we come to them and burn them behind us, with nothing to show for our progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a presumption that once our eyes watered.”

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LeChatNoir
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Post by LeChatNoir » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:25 pm

There's a difference between a challenge and an exercise in futility.
True, but I've yet to see it as futile. but that's my take on it.
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regynalonglank
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Post by regynalonglank » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:28 pm

yo barflies, happy VD!
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LeChatNoir
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Post by LeChatNoir » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:29 pm

Regyna!!! i've got an avatar for you, dear... what just a moment.
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Ranger Genius
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Post by Ranger Genius » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:29 pm

How can it not be futile to speculate about something you CAN'T know?
“We cross our bridges when we come to them and burn them behind us, with nothing to show for our progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a presumption that once our eyes watered.”

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LeChatNoir
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Post by LeChatNoir » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:30 pm

How can it not be futile to speculate about something you CAN'T know
You think I can't... I think I just don't yet.
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LeChatNoir
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Post by LeChatNoir » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:32 pm

That's a piece of forged steel left in the fire to get good and glowing hot, then I had a friend help me take the pic. Cool, eh?
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sparkletarte
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Post by sparkletarte » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:33 pm

Okay I'm back.

So RG, here's one for you.

last spring my friend's girlfriend went off in the woods to kill herself (succesfully). Massive searched ensued, for days, complete with dogs. No trace could be found.

Last month, police consulted a psychic who lives here. First he told them where to find some of here clothes, then her told them where to find her, and that's where she was.

Is that quackery? The search teams had been in that area with dogs (it rained the night she left, so maybe her scent was diluted). But how is it that he told them exacly where to find her?

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Ranger Genius
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Post by Ranger Genius » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:33 pm

But there are other explanations which offer more intellectual food, that is, they are more reasonable. They can be tested and verified. They provide a way to predict future events, and they don't posit any sort of entities whose existence is not verifiable. That's what it means to be reasonable.
“We cross our bridges when we come to them and burn them behind us, with nothing to show for our progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a presumption that once our eyes watered.”

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regynalonglank
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Post by regynalonglank » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:35 pm

LeChatNoir wrote:That's a piece of forged steel left in the fire to get good and glowing hot, then I had a friend help me take the pic. Cool, eh?
nice! that's hot...reminds me of me snakey tattoo, on me calf.

and i agree. anyone who is worth a shit will not charge you to do spiritual work.
\v/

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sparkletarte
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Post by sparkletarte » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:36 pm

Your last comment reminds me of what conventional medicine says about herbal medicine, and other traditional medicines that have been around for centuries longer than our current methods. Not everything is testable the type of science we use now.

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Ranger Genius
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Post by Ranger Genius » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:37 pm

Well, tarte, I really doubt that they story, as told, is true. Because it's never happened before, and the psychic in question is probably not a millionare. I know someone who will make him a millionare if he can show his ability under proper observing conditions.
“We cross our bridges when we come to them and burn them behind us, with nothing to show for our progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a presumption that once our eyes watered.”

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LeChatNoir
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Post by LeChatNoir » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:38 pm

But there are other explanations which offer more intellectual food, that is, they are more reasonable. They can be tested and verified. They provide a way to predict future events, and they don't posit any sort of entities whose existence is not verifiable. That's what it means to be reasonable.
Does this hold true for every single instance that has been put before us so far?
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Ranger Genius
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Post by Ranger Genius » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:39 pm

That's because herbal medicine is mostly bullshit, as is a large portion of ancient medicine. some things do appear to work, and some of them modern medicine has yet to fully explain or to ensure that it's safe. But why would you trust an herbal supplement distributor with your health rather than a medical professional?
“We cross our bridges when we come to them and burn them behind us, with nothing to show for our progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a presumption that once our eyes watered.”

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