Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

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Thecatman
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Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by Thecatman » Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:52 pm

I need to correct myself on what I posted about Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) on the TPBM thread. Apologies to gaminwench.
Upon further research I learned that it wasn't an egghead (scientist) from CARB that developed the stuff. It was an egghead (scientist) from the German Association of the Automotive Industry that developed it trademarking it AdBlue.
It contains no chemicals except for 32.5% urea (my understanding is it's primarily from pigs) and 67.5% deionized water.
It is not injected into the fuel system but is injected into the exhaust system where the DEF vaporizes and somehow reduces particulates common to diesel engine exhaust. It is not harmful but does smell like ammonia.
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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by gaminwench » Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:56 pm

Thanks, no apology necessary!

I just know that the diesel rig I drove to the playa this year chugged that stuff; I had no clue as to the content.

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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by WileE13 » Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:53 pm

Whatever it is, it ruined diesel trucks. Our 2001' 5.9L stock Dodge work truck runs like a champ, makes 315 hp/600+ft/lb and gets 20 mpg. My modded, lifted 01' makes 500hp/1000 ft/lb and gets 22 mpg. Dads 2013' 6.7L (last non DEF) stock Dodge makes 400hp/800 ft/lb and gets 17 mpg on a good day. It's a total highway machine too. Drive it slow or leave it idling too long and it clogs the DPF and starts to go into a regen mode, which gradually reduces power and kills mileage. At this point you either have to take it on the highway and hot rod it for a bit, or let it go full regen mode. Once into regen mode, it starts to dump raw unburnt fuel into the exhaust stroke to clean the DPF. I've read this process can use between a half gallon to a gallon of fuel.

The newer trucks all went to DEF to avoid the raw fuel dumping on the exhaust stroke. It now dumps DEF (32.5% urea rest DI water) into the exhaust stroke. The new trucks make gobs of power, but their mileage is even worse than the last gen non DEF trucks. Run out of DEF and it practically shuts the truck down. DEF freezes at 12 degrees F. If you can, buy a pre-2010 diesel, unless you are purely driving on pavement, really want the luxury, and don't mind getting terrible mileage.

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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by Thecatman » Mon Dec 26, 2016 10:15 pm

Where I work and the crew i'm on we have two 2016 Peterbilt dump/plow/tow plow trucks, three 2015 Elgin street sweepers. They all have some kind of Cummins engine, and require DEF and when they go into that regen mode, damn they stink. Especially the sweepers.
I had no idea what the regen mode was. You cleared that up for me.
I read as well that DEF freezes at +12 degrees. Although I wonder what will happen if the stuff freezes and cracks the extra tank that the vehicle has to have, most of which are exposed to the weather and made of plastic. If the stuff freezes, can a truck driver continue driving? I know the truck will quit if the DEF tanks runs out. Not by experience.
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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by Captain Goddammit » Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:10 am

This is like the early emissions-junk era of gas automobiles in the 1970s. They were COVERED in crap - hoses, pumps, etc all of which mostly made it run like crap.
Eventually they figured out how to make them run cleaned and better without that garbage most of us ripped off them anyway.

Right now is a lousy time to buy a new diesel.
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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by Elliot » Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:36 am

Excellent comparison, Captain!
I worked in a Chrysler dealership in the late 1970s, and the (illegal) stunts we pulled to make engines run better.... LOL

Around 2009, Caterpillar simply quit making engines for on-highway trucks, rather than spend a fortune on research and still sell crappy engines. One might say... they are letting others go thru the painful process of developing the needed technology.
How long will that take?
It took a quarter century before adequate computer controls fixed gasoline engines.
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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by WileE13 » Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:15 am

If the DEF freezes (like it would have here the last couple days) then the truck goes to idle mode just as it would if you ran out. As for cracking the tank, I don't know, but it certainly would be a possibility. I really don't know how they deal with the freezing issue. Maybe a tank heater? Easiest way to deal with it is to not get one. Save 30k and buy a used 5.9 Cummins, a 7.3/6.0 Powerstroke, or a pre-2008 Duramax. Use that extra 30k to trick it out with chip, exhaust, intake, injectors and a better turbo. With the 6.0, you'll want to dealerproof it or Bulletproof it, otherwise good luck getting even 150k miles out of it. The other option is a DPF delete kit. The Feds cracked down on them though and getting one has become more difficult. You basically have to prove to the companies that it isn't being used on the highway. You'll either have to do the work yourself, or take the plates off, tow it into the shop, and tell them it is strictly a race truck. Once the warranty is up on our 2013, we're going to delete the DPF.

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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by Captain Goddammit » Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:20 am

That is spot-on in my book! That's exactly what I did, I found a cream-puff low mileage 5.9 Cummins truck and totally tricked it out.
Air ride, Gear Vendors overdrive, a $5000 bullet proof transmission that can take whatever power you can throw at it, bigger injectors and a fancy programmable controller that lets it make STUPID power without belching black smoke.
I dare say it will out-pull a new one, and cost half.

The only glitch is the insurance value. There's a bit over $30k into a truck I'd have to fight hard to get $20k (if that) for if it gets totaled.

If you get a Chevy, an '06-'07 with the LBZ engine is The Good One. Those really rock.

Ford 6.0 Powerstroke, just go into it knowing you have a lot more money to spend "bullet proofing" the motor. If you do that, they are awesome.

All of them, go into it knowing you have $$ to spend getting the transmission "built".

It all still adds up to a lot less than a new one, and no DEF tank.
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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by ygmir » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:02 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:That is spot-on in my book! That's exactly what I did, I found a cream-puff low mileage 5.9 Cummins truck and totally tricked it out.
Air ride, Gear Vendors overdrive, a $5000 bullet proof transmission that can take whatever power you can throw at it, bigger injectors and a fancy programmable controller that lets it make STUPID power without belching black smoke.
I dare say it will out-pull a new one, and cost half.

The only glitch is the insurance value. There's a bit over $30k into a truck I'd have to fight hard to get $20k (if that) for if it gets totaled.

If you get a Chevy, an '06-'07 with the LBZ engine is The Good One. Those really rock.

Ford 6.0 Powerstroke, just go into it knowing you have a lot more money to spend "bullet proofing" the motor. If you do that, they are awesome.

All of them, go into it knowing you have $$ to spend getting the transmission "built".

It all still adds up to a lot less than a new one, and no DEF tank.

agreed. I have a 92 (12 valve) Dodge W350 dually 4x4 and a '00 F250 7.3 Powerstroke. I'll just keep them.
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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by Elliot » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:19 pm

The Ford 7.3 is actually the International (Harvester) DT444 used in medium duty commercial trucks, school buses, and the like. Excellent engine.

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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by WileE13 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:43 am

That is a hell of a truck Captain. What year?

I've got an 01' Dodge 24 valve 4x4. BRP head stud kit, EFE intake, 150 hp Jammer 5 injectors, Edge Chip, FASS 150 gph fuel pump, 5 in straight pipe, South Bend clutch to NV5600 6 speed transmission, 5 in custom lift, Fox Shox, 35 in tires and a hydro assist steering box. I estimate it makes over 500 hp though I've never put it on a dyno. Gets better mileage than stock too.

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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by A-RockLeFrench » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:41 pm

I like my '01 Powerstroke.. I wish it was a Cummins but those bastards never put one in an SUV..

I dumped a bunch of $$ into my excursion. Trans, injectors, exhaust, air bags etc.. I'll never get near the investment if I sell so we're pretty much married at this point. Hah.

Now what I really want to get is a old ugly pickup with a cummins or 7.3 that I can beat the shit out of as a farm truck for a couple years and then build into an art car.. a flatbed would be pretty rad...
Last edited by A-RockLeFrench on Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by ygmir » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:46 pm

A-RockLeFrench wrote:I like my '01 Powerstroke.. I wish it was a Cummins but those bastards never put one in an SUV..

I dumped a bunch of $$ into my excursion. Trans, injectors, exhaust, air bags etc.. I'll never get near the investment if I sell so were pretty much married at this point. Hah.

Now what I really want to get is a old ugly pickup with a cummins or 7.3 that I can beat the shit out of as a farm truck for a couple years and then build into an art car.. a flatbed would be pretty rad...
what's your budget?..........
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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by A-RockLeFrench » Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:37 pm

3-5k ish.. maybe more for something really cool...

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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by GreyCoyote » Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:33 pm

Arock: Maybe check out a 1995-ish short bus with a T444 engine. Cheap as hell on the surplus market, and pretty bulletproof. Cut the body off and use it as a flatbed, or gut it and use it like a bus. Or get seriously HD and get one with a DT466. :)

A guy down in Midfield, TX is a hay farmer and uses exactly this as his delivery truck. He diamond-plated the bed and made it a stakebed. Damn thing holds like 300 bales... or 12000 lbs in one load.
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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by Elliot » Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:54 pm

I know of a business that builds professional parade floats. They build them on school bus chassis.

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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by A-RockLeFrench » Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:56 pm

Yeah cause I need another school bus project! :lol: :roll:

I want a truck thats already a truck lol. No new projects, I want to focus on improving the Boner when the sunshine comes back around...

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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by WileE13 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:54 am

I know a guy that put's Cummins engines in other vehicles. It isn't easy. Lot's of fab work to make it all fit and function. I'd say 5k budget is pretty small unless you do the work yourself. I'm with ya though. My dream truck is an old 70's or 80's Chevy long bed single cab with a 12v Cummins. Love those trucks. Tough as hell, cheap to work on and they perform pretty well. Change out the waste gate spring and the injectors and you've got 500 hp.

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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by ygmir » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:15 pm

I've considered surplussing my 93 12 valve Dodge cummins 1ton dually flatbed,4x4/auto, club cab....just sayin.
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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by Captain Goddammit » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:08 pm

WileE13 wrote:That is a hell of a truck Captain. What year?

I've got an 01' Dodge 24 valve 4x4. BRP head stud kit, EFE intake, 150 hp Jammer 5 injectors, Edge Chip, FASS 150 gph fuel pump, 5 in straight pipe, South Bend clutch to NV5600 6 speed transmission, 5 in custom lift, Fox Shox, 35 in tires and a hydro assist steering box. I estimate it makes over 500 hp though I've never put it on a dyno. Gets better mileage than stock too.
I would put in an estimate of maybe 400hp.
To get 500 out of a 24-valve you need more boost.
I'll tell you the very best thing you can do for a '98.5 - '02 24-valve VP44 Cummins is ditch the Edge tuner and buy a Quadzilla Adrenaline. Rather than preset times (which it does have if you want to use them) you can completely custom tune your timing and fuel map. There's nothing else on the market like it, and the company is under new ownership by a guy who is really actively improving the software.
You can tune all the smoke out and make it run like gangbusters.

Mine is a '99, with way too much $$ thrown at it. It's got about everything you can think of. It's way too nice to ever take it to BRC again, ever taking it there was a mistake. Fuck that goddamm corrosive desert!
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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by WileE13 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:03 am

Good suggestion Captain. My Edge tuner is crapped out at the moment. Just talked to my mechanic yesterday. I'm going to call the company today and see about getting a replacement. Unfortunately, If I go with a Quadzilla I'll have to pay full price, whereas if I go with another Edge product they said they'd sell it to me for half price if I return the old one.

You can make 500 hp with the stock turbo. I'm making 45 lbs of boost. I also have a 90 hp shot of wet methanol from a Snow Performance water injection system I forgot to mention. The 01' 24 valve was rated at 315 hp from the factory. So that is 315 + 150(injectors) 150(chip) + 90(water injection) = 705 hp. Of course it doesn't just add up like that, but it gives an idea of the potential. I used to spin 41 inch tires in sand through 5 gears spinning donuts. Dug an 8 inch trench and threw sand 100 feet before the rear end grenaded and blew the spider gears to hell. Our 2013 makes 400 hp from the factory and it doesn't come close to what my 01' will make. I'm sure it is closer to 500 hp than 400.

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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by Captain Goddammit » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:37 am

Caution: long-winded blather about Cummins 24-valve Diesel engines ahead.
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You can make 45psi with the HX35 (stock turbo) but you shouldn't, anything over about 33-34 and it just makes heat and you'll overspin and cook it. Mine will make 45 too, but I use an adjustable boost elbow to keep it around 35 (gotta push it just a LITTLE!!).
Actually the '01s were at 235 HP, or ten more if it was an "H.O.".
I'd squeeze the extra and get the Quadzilla. You can control it all through an app on your phone, either Apple or Android. You get full data logging - which you can export in an email to yourself, you can set a turbo timer to keep your motor idling until it cools to a temp you choose, you can set it to do fast-idle warm up until the coolant reaches a temp you choose, you can write different tunes and switch between them any time, plus you have very full, detailed tuning capability.
You can run those big injectors you have and tune the power in and the smoke (which is just wasted fuel) out.
It will stretch the pump signal and add fuel and you can set exactly how much stretch you want - mild or shit loads.
The Edge only gives you factory preset "levels" without the ability to custom tune.
It can't squeeze the most power, least smoke and best efficiency out of your truck with your injectors and other mods.

I keep two custom tunes in mine, one optimized for max MPG and one I call "Kill", when I want to be able to blow by pretty much whoever I want unless they are in something very very fast.

If you get the Quadzilla, order it with "V2" loaded into it. You can download that latest software yourself otherwise. It's got way more/ better tuning ability.

Note to anyone else: he's got an aftermarket heavy duty clutch on his manual trans and I've got a $5000 automatic full of billet shafts. If you use one of these tuners with a stock transmission, carry your AAA card and a cell phone, you'll break it in short order!
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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by ranger magnum » Fri Jan 13, 2017 7:31 pm

We ran into problems with Def equipped vehicles in our vehicle maintenance department because of all the low/barely above idle speeds the trucks are forced to run at.

So mid/end of week we had to either take them out to deep playa or out onto the 34, and run them at wot until they cleared up
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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by Captain Goddammit » Fri Jan 13, 2017 7:39 pm

By the way, 500hp with a VP44 24-valve on the stock turbo is unheard of.
You should dyno the truck before making such an incredible claim!
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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by Captain Goddammit » Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:48 am

WileE13 wrote:Our 2001' 5.9L stock Dodge work truck runs like a champ, makes 315 hp/600+ft/lb and gets 20 mpg. My modded, lifted 01' makes 500hp/1000 ft/lb and gets 22 mpg.
I really don't know why you claim 315 hp or 600 ft/lbs from a stock '01 Cummins (those are both roughly 100 over the truth) or 500 hp through a stock HX35 turbo (they simply don't flow enough air for that and you can't honestly make that claim with no dyno sheet, especially such an unusually high claim for the parts combo).

I've never seen or heard of anyone actually gaining 90 hp with a water/methanol
Injection setup. Between 5 and 50 is what shows up on a real dyno test most of the time. It's more of a cooling aid and I guarantee if you're running 45 psi with a stock turbo on an '01, your exhaust gas temps are way too high.
You need a larger turbo to make that kind of power, because you might have all the pressure in the world but lack the flow. You could run a 66 turbo and make only 30 psi and make more power because the air is actually moving.
You can put 120 psi into an air tank but no air is going anywhere.
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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by WileE13 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:07 pm

Thanks for the lesson Captain. I don't know why I always thought they had 315 hp stock, something that stuck in my mind from 16 yrs ago when dad bought his first Cummins. You are correct, they don't, just looked at a Cummins web site. So yeah, I'm definitely over-estimating by at least 70 hp (mine is the HO). I'd love to dyno tune the thing, but there isn't anything like that around here. Probably go with that Quadzilla though, nobody seems to think very highly of the Edge tuner. As for the turbo, I'm aware, I don't run that thing over 35 psi unless I'm feeling frisky/stupid. Actually, I baby my truck all the time cause I hate buying parts for that thing and I like my fuel economy. Still, have you ever seen a Cummins turn 41 inch tires (both of them) in sand through 5 gears ? Wish I still had the video. Guess that is where I got the idea it had 500 hp.

You seem extremely knowledgeable, do you know much about the different types of blocks? Pattern 53, 55, 56 ect? I read/heard at one time in my life that a small percentage of the blocks were made by Navistar in America and were stronger than those made in Mexico/Brazil, they have more nickel in the casting steel. Can't find a pattern no. on mine. Our work truck is a pattern 56. I looked when we got a mail letter calling for a recall on all pattern 55 blocks.

Also, what type of turbo would you recommend for my truck based on what it already has? It is the primary weak link in the system and if I ever have any spare cash I'm going to replace it. Maybe the same time I replace my tuner. I don't want a hot rod turbo though, it still has to daily drive and tow, which is part of the reason I've never replaced it besides money.

i'm enjoying this thread, it is nice knowing there are other truck guys and gear heads in the burner community.

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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by Captain Goddammit » Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:56 pm

The 50-series Cummins 24-valve blocks, 53, 54, 55, and 56 are all Brazilian castings. The one to avoid is the "53". They are VERY well known to crack, because they were cast too thin. They crack on the passenger side, down low toward the rear. I've had it happen myself. They get better with each successive number, but the best one is the Mexican block. That's the highest-nickel, thickest strongest one.
I drove to another state to get one for my truck. Only about one in eight trucks came with those. You can identify them easily. The Brazilian blocks usually have the 53 - 56 number cast in about inch-high numbers on the driver side, low and forward.
The Mexican block will have a series of numbers and letters about 1/4" tall in the same location instead.
A 54, 55, or 56 is fine, if you have any of those I wouldn't worry about it.
I'll get back to you on a good turbo, I need to go back and look at your setup again. Feeble old brain can't remember exactly.
The Quadzilla is far and away the best tuner available for 98.5 - '02 Cummins.
It allows full, customizable control of timing, unlike any other on the market, as well as full custom control over fueling. You can get max power with minimum smoke and the best MPG, and it's even the same or cheaper than the others.
If you order one (and you should!!) be sure to specify "V2" version.
Spinning those big tires is due to the crazy torque these things will make... its fun isn't it?!! I like NUKING the guy who has to pull around alongside at the stoplight because he thinks the big 4x4 dually is going to be too slow for him... when in fact, he can't keep up! 800 ft/lbs of torque is hard to beat.
Pretty much the deal with a 24-valve is fuel pressure gauge and upgraded lift pump first, upgraded clutch/transmission second, Quadzilla and maybe injectors next, then turbo upgrade if you still want more, which ought to be accompanied by head studs. That will get you to the 500hp zone. After that it gets expensive and personally I think you're better off going to a common-rail Cummins, '03 and later but guys do build these 24-valves to silly-power.
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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by ygmir » Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:46 pm

*pulls up in '93 12 valve W350.......feeling flaccid in comparison, but happy with the good ole' truck*..........
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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by Captain Goddammit » Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:37 pm

I wanted a 12-valve, I just couldn't find a clean 1/2-year-only early 1998 with the no-computer 12-valve and opening rear doors!
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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by ygmir » Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:20 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:I wanted a 12-valve, I just couldn't find a clean 1/2-year-only early 1998 with the no-computer 12-valve and opening rear doors!
my "new" RV has one, and an Allison auto. so at least I can by stuff for both. Only leaving my 7.3 F250 on it's own.
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