Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by Thecatman » Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:31 pm

Went to the car show in Reno today. I was talking to a GMC salesman and he said that DEF is being done away with. Gonna be history.
I find that hard to believe.
While I was there I was just looking at the GMC Canyon/Chevrolet Colorado with the I4 Duramax. In a nut shell, half a Duramax.
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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by Elliot » Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:31 pm

To some of us who worked on new cars in the 1970s.... "Limiter caps" on idle mix screws! LOL
DEF definitely "has the marks" of such a stop-gap measure. Gasoline engines became amazingly clean once technology caught up with the need. Hopefully, the same will happen with diesels.

That said... I'm in the market for a second Blue Bird school bus, and it will be a mechanical engine -- up to around 1997. Millicent (my first bus) blessedly is a 1992 -- a 5.9 with the P7100 injection pump.

On the downside.... I'm looking at a 1987 with Detroit 8.2. All I've read says this is the worst engine ever. Reckon I would repower it sooner or later.
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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by Captain Goddammit » Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:07 am

Don't buy anything with an 8.2!!! I bet whatever you're looking at with that in it is an amazing great deal. Cheap for good reason. Don't give in to temptation on this!
Repowering is way too much expense and work.
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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by Elliot » Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:19 am

I know, I know.
1987 Blue Bird. It's on eBay, by a dealer. Auction closes 8:30 in the morning. Currently at $2,150 or so. Located in Fontana, near Los Angeles.
It's the All American flavor, which means stronger frame and much else, compared with "standard", which Millicent is. Higher axle and gross weight ratings.

We are almost certainly going to move the engine rearward in the frame. Much bigger project than Millicent, yes.

I'm not worried about the work involved in repowering it, but the price of the new engine -- and maybe a "proper" Road Ranger box. We'll be able to work from above, since there will be no body there at this stage of the project.

But yeah.... 8.2. World's best boat anchor.

The other bus is just like it, with 3208, located in Montana. Dealer, fixed price of $2,500.

But I ought to just wait for one with a Cummins, or DTA466. Trouble is, 40-footers from before 1997 are becoming more scarce all the time.
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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by Elliot » Sat Feb 11, 2017 8:42 am

I managed to let somebody else buy the 8.2.
A brand new bidder took it from $2,150 to $2,475 at the last moment, but the previous bidder was higher and bought it for $2,500.

Back to bed.
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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by Captain Goddammit » Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:17 am

I wouldn't be too excited about owning a 3208 either.
I'm sorry you missed a great deal on a nice bus but I'm glad you dodged a potential bullet at the same time.
Yeah.... buying school busses fresh and direct from the school district was always best, but now that does mean computerized powertrains.
Keep looking, settle where you have to on some things but stick to your guns on the major ones! I know you know what you're doing. DT466, Cummins 5.9, or T444 in that order. Unless it's a Cummins 8.3. I'd rank that #1.
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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by Elliot » Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:45 am

Now I'm trying to talk Peter -- my co-conspirator -- into a 1997 for $7,900. Last year of mechanical 5.9, yet with the modern Allison MD 3060 overdrive 5/6 speed. 154,000 miles. The perfect bus, essentially. Dealer near Portland, OR.

Wonder if... if we drop in unannounced, like we are local, say we like it, but have only $5,000 between us....

I need to go back to sleep for a couple hours. ;-)
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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by Captain Goddammit » Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:20 pm

Now that sounds ideal!! I know you're a professional wordsmith... talk that one up!!
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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by Captain Goddammit » Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:05 pm

Edge-icate me a bit Elliot, isn't the MD3080 a computer controlled trans?
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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by Elliot » Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:34 pm

(MD 3060, I think.)
Yes, but it has its own computer. From what I'm told, all it needs to work behind a mechanical engine, is a Throttle Position Sensor -- which can be connected to the pedal linkage anywhere convenient. From the TPS signal, the computer can tell not only how far open the "throttle" is at that instant, but also if it is moving, and in which direction and how fast. The rest of the sensors are on the various shafts in the transmission.

The downside is that Allison has so far largely succeeded in keeping the programming "secret". And in school buses, 6th gear is "locked out" by the program. Getting it unlocked costs hundreds at a Dealer, if Allison allows it -- which they apparently consider a liability issue.
Generally, you have to prove that the bus is no longer transporting children. And I have read of cases where they required the bus manufacturer to certify that the rest of the bus can tolerate the extra speed.
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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by ygmir » Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:45 pm

Elliot wrote:Now I'm trying to talk Peter -- my co-conspirator -- into a 1997 for $7,900. Last year of mechanical 5.9, yet with the modern Allison MD 3060 overdrive 5/6 speed. 154,000 miles. The perfect bus, essentially. Dealer near Portland, OR.

Wonder if... if we drop in unannounced, like we are local, say we like it, but have only $5,000 between us....

I need to go back to sleep for a couple hours. ;-)
I'd say money talks, Elliot. Not sure they'd care if you were locals, money is money.

dang, if you got a bus with a 12 valve 5.9, and I have a pickup and RV with them.....we could bulk buy stuff!!! and race!!
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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by Elliot » Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:05 pm

Buying fuel in bulk would indeed be indicated. I paid $5,500 for Millicent, and so far we have gone thru three to four times much that in fuel. :mrgreen:
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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by Captain Goddammit » Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:36 pm

I probably have the hot rod of the eplaya 5.9s right now but you guys with the P7100s have the most potential to really turn it up.

Only because of the awesome Quadzilla tuner that allows full custom control of timing and fueling am I sort of glad I have the computerized version. A few taps on my cell phone is all it takes. MPG is way up and power is ridiculous.

When it works.
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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by ygmir » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:01 am

Captain Goddammit wrote:I probably have the hot rod of the eplaya 5.9s right now but you guys with the P7100s have the most potential to really turn it up.

Only because of the awesome Quadzilla tuner that allows full custom control of timing and fueling am I sort of glad I have the computerized version. A few taps on my cell phone is all it takes. MPG is way up and power is ridiculous.

When it works.
what mileage do you get CGD?

ETA: I wonder if I could put a P7100 on my '92 and '93 5.9's?
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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by Elliot » Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:11 am

Ygmir, I do not have the answer, but I do have a small clue: My 1992 Blue Bird's 5.9 has the P pump.
The big unknown is the question of different assembly lines. I believe Cummins built these engines in more than one location. So there may be more differences than just grabbing one pump or the other when the next block comes down the line.
Such as perhaps... different blocks or other parts, or at least different machining on the castings -- just theorizing here.

The overlap clearly ran for at least two years.

Also worth keeping in mind.... Engines are sometimes stored a long time before being installed. This is of course contrary to the generally sound practice of "just in time", but I believe vehicle "assemblers" like Blue Bird sometimes buy a batch, or production run, of engines at one time -- for bulk pricing, or safeguard against troublesome running changes in regular production, or whatnot.

And different customers have different priorities. Typically, buyers of pickup-trucks immediately embrace new technology (Shiny! More tire-smoke!). Buyers of school buses, on the other hand, avoid unproven technology, since reliability is paramount to them.

Then... the opposite appears to have happened with the P pump! But there were no doubt also other factors involved.

Bottom line.... More research needed on interchangeability.
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Re: Diesel Exhaust Fluid correction

Post by Captain Goddammit » Mon Feb 13, 2017 7:48 am

You can swap a P7100 onto an early VE pump motor, you have to pull the cam and swap the timing case, the pump, all the lines... people say a truck tweaked to around 400hp with a VE pump runs and drives better than a P-pump. If you really want to crank it up, then you need the P-pump.
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