The Great Medical Debate...

All things outside of Burning Man.
User avatar
blueniteowl
Posts: 2885
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 4:45 am
Location: found in dust

The Great Medical Debate...

Post by blueniteowl » Wed Feb 16, 2005 1:21 am

Have an opinion about medicine? Whether it be traditional, holistic, or alternative I want to hear your thoughts.


See what started this thread here:
http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... start=4560

User avatar
Ranger Genius
Posts: 2408
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 7:07 am
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain
Contact:

Post by Ranger Genius » Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:22 am

Re: Chiropractic "Medicine."

Well, we'll start with a bibliography. Then I'll move on in the next post to some simple arguments.

Assendelft WJJ, Bouter LM, Knipschild PG. Complications of spinal manipulation - a comprehensive review of the literature. J Fam Pract 1996; 42: 475-480
Beatty, R. "Dissecting hematoma of the internal carotid artery following chiropractic cervical manipulation" J Trauma, 17:248-249, 1977
Benassy, J. and Wolinetz, E., "Quadraplegia after chiropractic manipulation," RHUM, 24:555- 556, 1957
A. Breen, E. Leerberg, M. D Pedigo, G. Waddell, L. G F Giles, E Ernst, and W J J Assendelft Chiropractic for low back pain BMJ, January 23, 1999; 318(7178): 261a - 261.
Chiropractic for low back pain: We don't know whether it does more good than harm, The British Medical Journal, 1998; 317:160-160 (18 July)
Davidson, K., et al, "Traumatic vertebral artery pseudoaneurysm following chiropractic manipulation" NEURORADIOLOGY, 115:651-652, 1975
Ernst E. Chiropractors use of X-rays Br J Radiol
E. Ernst Spinal manipulation: Its safety is uncertain Can. Med. Assoc. J., January 1, 2002; 166(1): 40 - 41
Harrison, J. Strokes ICA Malpractice Alert, 2:1-2, 1981
Krueger, B. and Okazakl, H. "Vertebral-basilar distribuation infarction following chiropractic cervical manipulation", Mayo Clin Pros. 55:322-332, 1980
Levine, J., Howe, J., and Rolofson, J., "Radiation exposure to a phantom patient during simulated chiropractic spinal radiography", Radiol Health Data Reports, 12:245-251, 1971
Miller, R. and Bunon, R. "Stroke following chiropractic manipulation of the spine" JAMA, 229:189-190, 1974
Modde, P. "Malpractice as an inevitable result of chiropractic philosophy and training" Legal Aspects of Med Practice, Feb:20-23, 1979
Rinsky. L, et al, "A cervical spinal cord injury following chiropractic manipulation" Paraplegia, 13:223-22, 1976
Schelihas, K., et al, "Vertebrobasilar injuries following cervical manipulation" Am Med Assoc, 244:1450-1453, 1980
Smith, P and Doll, R., "Mortality among patients with ankylosing spondylitis after a single treatment course with x-rays", Brit Med J, 284:449-460, 1982 Abrams, H., "The overutilization of x-rays", New England J MED, 300:1213-1216, 1979
Stano M, Smith M. Chiropractic and medical costs of low back care. Medical Care 1996; 34: 191-204
Zak, S. and Carmody, R . "Cerebellar infarction from chiropractic neck manipulation" Ariz Med, 41:333-337, 1984
Zauel, D., and Carlow, T., "Internuclear Ophthalmalegia following cervical manipulation" Annals of Neurol, l:308, 1977
“We cross our bridges when we come to them and burn them behind us, with nothing to show for our progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a presumption that once our eyes watered.”

User avatar
Ranger Genius
Posts: 2408
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 7:07 am
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain
Contact:

Post by Ranger Genius » Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:37 am

Shall we start with where Chiropractic "Medicine" came from? Here's a brief synopsis of its founding and central theories, compliments of the National Council Against Health Fraud: NCAHF.org
Chiropractic's uniqueness is not its use of manipulative therapy but its theoretical reason for doing so. Just as early osteopathy found its justification in the "rule of the artery" (i.e., the belief that manipulation improved circulation), chiropractic is based upon the "rule of the nerve", which assumes manipulation exerts important effects upon ''nerve flow ''.
The term ''chiropractic'' literally means "done by hand." The word was adopted by chiropractic's founder, Daniel D. Palmer, a layman with an intense personal interest in the metaphysical health philosophies of his day such as magnetic healing, phrenology, and spiritualism. In 1895, Palmer claimed to have restored the hearing of a nearly deaf janitor by manipulating his spine.

Palmer believed that he had discovered the primary cause of disease and theorized that 95 percent of all disease was caused by spinal subluxation and the others by luxated bones elsewhere in the body. Palmer was not employing the term "subluxation" in its medical sense, but with a new metaphysical meaning. Palmer's "subluxations" supposedly interfered with the body's expression of the Universal Intelligence (God) which Palmer dubbed the Innate Intelligence (spark of life or spirit). Thus, D.D. Palmer invented chiropractic, named it, and established a guild of practitioners to further its development. For this reason chiropractic fits the dictionary definition of a cult (i.e. a system for the cure of disease based upon dogma set forth by its promulgator)
That's right. No medical science went into it, no rigorous studying, no clinical tests, not even any pragmatic studies. Palmer just stated the basic theory of chiropractic outright with absolutely no evidence or science to back it up. It's a pseudoscience. Part of why chiropractic is so objectionable, from the same article:
Politically aggressive and public-relations minded, chiropractors are seeking to expand their legal scope of practice, and are attempting to establish their methods as suitable alternatives to conventional medicine. However, most chiropractors do not share the view of health and disease held by health scientists worldwide. Most dispute the idea that germs are the primary cause of infectious diseases, disparage conventional medical practices--particularly drug therapy and surgery—and oppose various scientifically-based public health measures. In short, chiropractic has been anti-science in its philosophy and approach to health care.
It's basically reflexology for the back. Which, for the record, doesn't work either.

If this doesn't satisfy, I've got a whole army of medical experts waiting in the wings to come in here and lay the smack down.
“We cross our bridges when we come to them and burn them behind us, with nothing to show for our progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a presumption that once our eyes watered.”

User avatar
Ranger Genius
Posts: 2408
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 7:07 am
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain
Contact:

Post by Ranger Genius » Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:52 am

Here's some more from that NCAHF article:
Chiropractic theory and philosophy contest with basic anatomy, physiology, neurology, microbiology, pharmacology, pathology, immunology, and many other basic sciences. Despite their claims of persecution by organized medicine, chiropractic expends far more effort attacking conventional medical practice than vice versa. Chiropractors often play upon patients' natural fears of surgery and confuse patients by linking responsible therapeutic drug use with drug abuse.
In addition, chiropractors generally oppose public health programs such as fluoridation, immunization, and sometimes pasteurization of milk. Those who engage in nutrition counseling commonly attack modern food technology and promote unscientific ideas. It seems curious that although chiropractic students use many standard medical textbooks, what they learn deviates significantly from others schooled in the health sciences. The source of these problems appears to be faulty schooling where chiropractic philosophy and pseudoscience are mixed with training in manipulative therapy.
And more:
Chiropractic's lack of science has led it to violate the basic Hippocratic principle of "first of all, do no harm." The conviction held by chiropractic true-believers that every spine will benefit from an adjustment causes them to manipulate spines inappropriately.(23,24) Among the concerns about chiropractic manipulation is the widespread use of the explosive "dynamic thrust" which takes the patient by surprise, as opposed to more conservative techniques. This maneuver has a greater potential for inflicting injury.
The practice of greatest concern is the rotary neck movement (sometimes called "Vaster cervical'' or "rotary break"). This type of manipulation has led to trauma (25-27), paralysis (28,29), strokes (30,31), and death (32-33) among patents. Even chiropractic's legal advisors have warned against its use.(34)

The overuse of x-ray by chiropractors poses potential patient harm. Of primary concern is the 24' x 36' full spine x-ray. This technique exposes patients to a substantial amount of radiation. (35,38) Exposing the body trunk to x-rays can have serious long-range consequences (36-37) and should be avoided. Further, according to NCAHF's chiropractic advisors, such radiographs have little or no diagnostic value.
Hucksterism:
The most disturbing feature of chiropractic is the number of ''success schools" which teach ethically questionable practices and sometimes outright fraud to be used in practice-building. The methods employed have been described elsewhere (38-39) and will not be reviewed here in detail; just three examples will suffice.
First, is the practice of leading people to believe that vague symptoms common to everyday life are warning signs of serious disease in need of chiropractic care. Second, is the tactic of selling patients on a belief that weekly or monthly "preventive" chiropractic care is needed to insure health. Third, is the rehearsal of explanations to recite to patients who have become discouraged in order to keep them returning despite the apparent absence of benefit.

The message, which is clear to NCAHF from its review of such abuses, is the critical importance of patient trust and practitioner trustworthiness in health care. Chiropractors pay strong lip service to freedom of choice in the health marketplace. However, after reviewing many of the techniques taught by the success promoters in chiropractic, such "freedom" could easily be construed to mean a license for unethical practitioners to use their superior position in the doctor/patient relationship for exploitation. Patients who are deceived or desperate because of sickness, fear or pain are not choosing freely.
An important section, and hopefully this describes the chiropractor you know:
The Reformers
There is a small but growing number of chiropractors who recognize the failings of their profession, but sincerely believe that there is a place for chiropractic in the health marketplace. It is estimated that 70-80% of people will suffer back pain at some time in their lives. If, as studies seem to indicate, one third of these can find more rapid relief by having safe, conservative manipulative therapy, then there appears to be a large market for the services of scientifically oriented chiropractors. Further, a national study of health practices found that three-fourths of chiropractic patients seek relief from musculo-skeletal problems. (42) This means that a minority seek the type of treatments found in the plethora of nonsense practiced by the chiropractor/naturopaths. If chiropractic were to purge itself of its quackery and offer valid back care, it could expect a substantial increase in physician referrals.
One small faction of reformist chiropractors is conducting and publishing meaningful research in the field of manipulative therapy. This group is not openly critical of chiropractic's shortcomings and has not agitated for outright repudiation of the "subluxation" theory. They apparently seek to change chiropractic by evolution, bypassing the theory by ignoring it or applying the term "subluxation" to a number of spinal aberrations in a general manner. It is NCAHF's view that these chiropractors are too greatly outnumbered and overshadowed by practitioners profiting from pseudoscience to effectively change chiropractic in this manner.

A more progressive-minded group has formed the National Association for Chiropractic Medicine (NACM), a professional association with views which are in harmony with science and consumer protection. Using guidelines set forth by the NCAHF Task Force on Chiropractic, NACM has openly renounced the "subluxation" theory and unscientific practices. Members limit their scope of practice to neuro musculo-skeletal conditions, and its modes of treatment to those which have scientific validity. NACM does not present itself as an alternative health care system to medical science.
I look forward to discussing this issue further.
“We cross our bridges when we come to them and burn them behind us, with nothing to show for our progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a presumption that once our eyes watered.”

User avatar
joel the ornery
Posts: 2657
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 3:28 pm
Burning Since: 1998
Location: i'm the snarky one in your worst fucking nightmares
Contact:

be healthy, or life will kill you.

Post by joel the ornery » Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:55 am

in my humble opinion, the best medicine is no medicine...

and when that isn't an option, the least medicine required should always be the first choice of treatment...

and finally, nobody gets out of here alive... so you probably ought to make the best of the situation at hand.

User avatar
Ranger Genius
Posts: 2408
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 7:07 am
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain
Contact:

Post by Ranger Genius » Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:56 am

Sparkle and I didn't get a chance to talk about Acupuncture the other day, and she seemed insensed when I said that it was bunk. Here's the summary from the NCAHF article on acupuncture:
Acupuncture involves the stimulation of certain points on or near the skin by the insertion of needles or by other methods. It has been used as a treatment in Asia for several thousand years but has not been proven effective by modern standards.

Acupuncture is being promoted as both an "alternative" treatment and an adjunct to standard treatment. In China, it was banned in 1929 but underwent resurgence in the 1960s during the Cultural Revolution. In the United States, it is used mainly for pain relief. Some states permit only licensed physicians to perform acupuncture, while others license lay persons as well. While acupuncture organizations are trying to standardize training, researchers are still attempting to determine whether acupuncture is effective.

NCAHF believes:
  • 1. Acupuncture is an unproven modality of treatment;
    2. Its theory and practice are based on primitive and fanciful concepts of health and disease that bear no relationship to present scientific knowledge;
    3. Research during the past twenty years has failed to demonstrate that acupuncture is effective against any disease;
    4. Perceived effects of acupuncture are probably due to a combination of expectation, suggestion, counter- irritation, operant conditioning, and other psychological mechanisms;
    5. The use of acupuncture should be restricted to appropriate research settings;
    6. Insurance companies should not be required by law to cover acupuncture treatment; and
    7. Licensure of lay acupuncturists should be phased out.
“We cross our bridges when we come to them and burn them behind us, with nothing to show for our progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a presumption that once our eyes watered.”

User avatar
Ranger Genius
Posts: 2408
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 7:07 am
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain
Contact:

Post by Ranger Genius » Wed Feb 16, 2005 6:28 am

A little note related to Chiropractic from the JREF update, Jan 07, 2005:
FSU IN A FLAP

Here in Florida, a number of professors in the Florida State University College of Medicine are saying they will resign if FSU administrators continue to pursue the inclusion of a proposed chiropractic school, for which the legislature has earmarked $9,000,000. As many universities have discovered, there's money in teaching quackery, as well as in the practice.

Dr. Ian Rogers, an assistant professor at FSU's Pensacola campus, in a Dec. 15 e-mail, refers to the plan as "plainly ludicrous." This opinion, shared by other academics at FSU, reflects a belief held by many in the medical establishment that chiropractic is a pseudoscience that leads to unnecessary and sometimes harmful treatments. However, the American Medical Association, badly wounded by the outcomes of various court encounters with the chiropractors, are now very careful in making statements about the efficacy of this system. They have effectively been silenced by their fear of litigation.

If established, such a chiropractic school would be the only one of its kind in the USA. FSU professors are even circulating a parody map of their future campus that places a fictional Department of ESP Studies, a Bigfoot Institute, School of Astrology, and Faith Healing School adjacent to a future Chiropractic School. Image
The matter will be voted on this month before the FSU board of trustees and the state Board of Governors. Republican Senator Dennis Jones, who led legislative support for the school of chiropractic, said the concerned FSU professors were "overreacting." "If they resign, so be it," he said. Senator Jones is himself a chiropractor....

With the present atmosphere in Washington towards "alternative" modalities and "faith-based" projects — which this would certainly be — the school could also draw lucrative federal grants.

More than 500 faculty members have signed petitions against establishing the chiropractic school, and some of them say they're willing to do more than just sign a petition. They see the move as fatal to the FSU reputation. The faculty as a whole has not yet officially voiced their concerns about the chiropractic school.
“We cross our bridges when we come to them and burn them behind us, with nothing to show for our progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a presumption that once our eyes watered.”

gigglesnort
Posts: 3099
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 2:46 pm

Post by gigglesnort » Wed Feb 16, 2005 7:11 am

For whatever the reason, accupuncture fixed my knees right up, and yay for that! ANother time, after a mighty fall while running down the mountainside and garnering a large purple egg on my shin, I sought out care by the accupuncturist; I was pain-free the next day with minimal bruising and able to run again. (and he tried not to accept my money knowing my single-mother status; when's the last time you saw a 'real' doctor do that? He has a car payment to make, after all, for hte shiny new convertible red zoom zoom).

Tai chi is moving accupuncture and a fountain of youth.

As far as modern medicine, people are living much longer yes, but at what quality of life? I would prefer not to live on another dozen years laboring under the effects of scores of pharmaceuticals. Pills for hte heart, a pill for nausea caused by those pills, a pill for constipation caused by that pill, a pill for mental status changes caused by the effects of allt he above, a pill for circulation, a pill to make me happy to be taking so many pills, etc. All in the name of real science! Or big profits for the drug companies.

There are marvels in modern medicine to be sure, for which I am grateful, but we are also a very sick country still; to say it is imperfect is an understatement.

In the meantime, I forewent seeing a doctor to receive antibiotics for a serious lung infection I've been struggling with and opted to take copious amounts of echinacea in a tincture form as well as a lung tonic made from various other herbs (ooh it tastes so bad!!!), and today I'm 3/4 on the way to good health again, three days after beginning that treatment.

I think doctors make you sick (it's their business). I don't trust them to have my best interest in mind; they get great free lunches from the drug companies! They've a product to sell to keep the reps happy! (And I suck at debate; I just know what I know and feel too strongly to be detached.)

All my humble opinion, of course.

User avatar
Ranger Genius
Posts: 2408
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 7:07 am
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain
Contact:

Post by Ranger Genius » Wed Feb 16, 2005 7:44 am

1. FOUL! Ad Hominem, poisoning the well.

2. Anecdotal evidence doesn't equal proof. I'm sorry, but even if I personally had gotten relief from an acupuncturist or chiropractor, it still wouldn't prove the accuracy of what they claim. There are too many variables to be considered there...the body's ability to sometimes heal itself, the placebo effect and other psychological phenomena.

A widely believed falsehood is still a falsehood.

3. And sparkle, I believe I have already discussed the liscensing issue. Anger and discomfiture is a normal and natural response to information and evidence that contradicts precepts on which one's world-view is based.

Giggles, you've already exceeded the average life expectancy for 300 years ago. Much less a millenium ago.
In the meantime, I forewent seeing a doctor to receive antibiotics for a serious lung infection I've been struggling with and opted to take copious amounts of echinacea in a tincture form as well as a lung tonic made from various other herbs
Many people die from making such ill-informed decisions. Echinacea does have some medial evidence to support its usefulness in improving the immune system, but not all herbal or alternative remedies do. Basically, there are three outcomes: 1:you get better. 2: nothing happens 3: you get worse (in the latter two instances,a faither healer blames you. A fairly reasonable person then goes to a REAL doctor). I can show you documented cases of people making such decisions about their children's health care, and thereby killing them. Death by ignorance is tragic.
“We cross our bridges when we come to them and burn them behind us, with nothing to show for our progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a presumption that once our eyes watered.”

gigglesnort
Posts: 3099
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 2:46 pm

Post by gigglesnort » Wed Feb 16, 2005 7:52 am

As I said, I'm no debater; if it works, it works! THose 'real' doctors don't even know why some of their 'real' medicine works, but they still use it. But I do think yer kinda cute when yer all ruffled. *smooch* And sometimes a little poison in the water is just the right cure. AND my children are all still alive and kicking, tyvm!

Hey, wanna go dancing at the gay bar?

gigglesnort
Posts: 3099
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 2:46 pm

Post by gigglesnort » Wed Feb 16, 2005 7:54 am

Dancing is good medicine, in my book.

User avatar
Lydia Love
Posts: 1567
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2003 8:01 pm
Location: Seattle

Post by Lydia Love » Wed Feb 16, 2005 8:21 am

OK... why is this a "debate" instead of a discussion? That is to say, why should I be content to only talk this over in terms deemed acceptable to you RG? (I should say, RG, that I'm coming to respect ya quite a bit).

It's possible that I have some interesting stuff to say on this topic, but if it's gonna be dismissed out of hand as anecdotal (but fuck it, I don't have any degrees - what I do have is a well of experience to share) I'm not going to play.

The placebo effect, btw, is a very valuable tool. Any doctor or healer who ignores it does so to the detriment of the patient. The fact that psychology can have an impact on the health of the body is way more interesting to me than factual "apply this chemical here and in 90% of the cases it clears up this problem" type information.
It's all about the squirrels.

CoworkerLurker
Posts: 342
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 11:00 pm
Location: the office

Post by CoworkerLurker » Wed Feb 16, 2005 8:37 am

I've always figured that more doctors should be prescribing placebos.

I mean, all those medical studies are supposed to determine that a drug or treatment works better than a placebo, right? Because if it just works better than nothing, not such a big deal... Gotta mean that placebos work better than nothing, I figure.

Rian Jackson
Posts: 3903
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 4:30 pm
Location: In Rob's Head

Post by Rian Jackson » Wed Feb 16, 2005 8:39 am

Warning, anecdotal evidence:

I have mixed feelings about chiropractic, but I do know that it helped *some* for my back. The reason I'm not going back has more to do with not being able to get my problems taken care of in the number of visits that insurance will give me than anything else.

It does make some logical sense to me that if you have nerves that are being pinched by misaligned bones and you relieve the pressure, you'll hurt a lot less.

I've personally traced most of my physiological issues to the interplay of bones and muscles in my spinal column. It wasn't a doctor who told me this; it was my own propioception. A physical therapist, when asked if this was possible, agreed that it was probable.

Does that mean that chiro is always the answer? Doubtful. (For instance, I doubt that it would fix degenerated bones, but it might help to stop tha process if it's a friction-related issue.) Does it mean that nothing else is worth exploring? No. But I also think it's a little naive to dismiss it out of hand.

Some days it was the difference between walking and not walking. You can dismiss that if'n you want, but i found it to be pretty critical. Had i gone to a traditional doc, they would probably have put me under the knife, an exteme procedure. It's never a good idea to do surgery unless you really need it.
surlier than thou

User avatar
Ranger Genius
Posts: 2408
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 7:07 am
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain
Contact:

Post by Ranger Genius » Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:10 am

Progressive..mind you, not traditional...chiropractic treatment can have some positive health effects..for your back. But they're more or less comparable to a good massage. But chiropractic care can CAUSE or EXACERBATE serious health problems for some patients (especially those suffering from Ankylosing Spondylitis. Many patients have suffered permanent and serious damage to their bones and spines by undergoing the treatment course which was recommended by a chiropractor.

If your back or neck hurts, or you have migraine headaches, there is a body of genuine evidence to show that chiropractic care can help you. Just make sure you go to a member of the NACM. The others are quacks and hucksters.

What I'm saying is that it has been explored, and found to be false.

And LyLo, I'm perfectly amenable to a discussion on terminology and definitions. Any good discussion/debate requires a standard of evidence be set, or there's no point in having the discussion.

Should a chiropractor be allowed to claim credit for something that the body healed itself? or the mind? Or where the symptoms were psychosomatic to begin with? Chiropractic treatment can cause real and serious harm to a patient, so the benefits of the placebo effect are hardly justified, much less my health insurance (and therefore me) having to pay a "doctor" in order for people to heal themselves.

The reasons anecdotal evidence is not acceptable as proof are numerous. First, it's unverifiable. Second, it does not eliminate other variables from the equation. If I drink a pint of Pepto Bysmol a day for a week, and my cancer is cured three days later, it's hardly evidence that the awful stuff cures cancer. It's odd and rare, but sometimes people recover miraculously. Everytime Chiro and Acupuncture are subjected to any sort of rigorous, double-blind testing, they fail miserably to perform. Throw reflexology, faith healing, crystal resonance, prayer, and all kinds of other alternative "medicine" techinques onto that pile.
“We cross our bridges when we come to them and burn them behind us, with nothing to show for our progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a presumption that once our eyes watered.”

Rian Jackson
Posts: 3903
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 4:30 pm
Location: In Rob's Head

Post by Rian Jackson » Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:19 am

chiropractic treatment can have some positive health effects..for your back. But they're more or less comparable to a good massage.
I would also add that chiro can be helpful for other parts of your body that are connected to your back. Because hey, they ARE interconnected. It's pretty simple.. when my knees start going numb on the sides, it seems to have alot ot do with the parts of my lower spine that have been turned and tilted funny since birth.

Re: Chiro v. massage, the two together are probably more effective than either individually. Look at it this way - if you're misaligned, it's both the bones and the muslces that are holding them that way. Massage alone won't move my spine back into place, but the muscles need to be loosened up too, so that they can stop overcompensating.
surlier than thou

gigglesnort
Posts: 3099
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 2:46 pm

Post by gigglesnort » Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:20 am

*sigh*

{dons her feather pasties and begins dancing in circles, shaking her rattle, and chanting under her breath to chase away the sickness of hte modern mind}

User avatar
Ranger Genius
Posts: 2408
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 7:07 am
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain
Contact:

Post by Ranger Genius » Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:24 am

I'm willing to grant that chiropractic has some genuine applications in actual medical treatment, but most chiropractors don't know genuine health care from a hole in the ground, and believe they can genuiney cure diabetes with spinal adjustments. Or anxiety disorder, bedwetting, et cetera. I like to see the direction the NACM is heading, but I really think they should just come up for a different name for what they do, to distance themselves from that quackery.

Things like dancing and fucking, on the other hand, have documented history of being able to solve some minor health problems, as well as psychological ones. Even if just because of the exercise the provide.
“We cross our bridges when we come to them and burn them behind us, with nothing to show for our progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a presumption that once our eyes watered.”

User avatar
joel the ornery
Posts: 2657
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 3:28 pm
Burning Since: 1998
Location: i'm the snarky one in your worst fucking nightmares
Contact:

Post by joel the ornery » Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:26 am

Ranger Genius wrote:Things like dancing and fucking, on the other hand, have documented history of being able to solve some minor health problems, as well as psychological ones. Even if just because of the exercise the provide.
Hey, i'll sign up for that therapy!

User avatar
Ranger Genius
Posts: 2408
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 7:07 am
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain
Contact:

Post by Ranger Genius » Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:28 am

Yeah, but just try to get your PCP to write you a prescription for it.
“We cross our bridges when we come to them and burn them behind us, with nothing to show for our progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a presumption that once our eyes watered.”

User avatar
Ranger Genius
Posts: 2408
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 7:07 am
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain
Contact:

Post by Ranger Genius » Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:28 am

Ha! or to refer you to a specialist!
“We cross our bridges when we come to them and burn them behind us, with nothing to show for our progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a presumption that once our eyes watered.”

Rian Jackson
Posts: 3903
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 4:30 pm
Location: In Rob's Head

Post by Rian Jackson » Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:35 am

Why is it that today EVERYONE's answer to back issues is sex?

Can you lay off on the work day frustration? It's still early.
surlier than thou

User avatar
joel the ornery
Posts: 2657
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 3:28 pm
Burning Since: 1998
Location: i'm the snarky one in your worst fucking nightmares
Contact:

Post by joel the ornery » Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:41 am

Rian Jackson wrote:Why is it that today EVERYONE's answer to back issues is sex?
'cause it feels good?
Rian Jackson wrote:Can you lay off on the work day frustration? It's still early.
hmmm, sounds like sex might be the cure for what ails you, cutie-pie.

my apologies for being "DVD-like" with the above post.

User avatar
Bob
Posts: 6748
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 10:00 am
Burning Since: 1986
Camp Name: Royaneh
Location: San Francisco
Contact:

Post by Bob » Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:44 am

From the AMA website -- http://www.ama-assn.org/:
E-3.01 Nonscientific Practitioners.

It is unethical to engage in or to aid and abet in treatment which has no scientific basis and is dangerous, is calculated to deceive the patient by giving false hope, or which may cause the patient to delay in seeking proper care. Physicians should also be mindful of state laws which prohibit a physician from aiding and abetting an unlicensed person in the practice of medicine, aiding or abetting a person with a limited license in providing services beyond the scope of his or her license, or undertaking the joint medical treatment of patients under the foregoing circumstances. Physicians are otherwise free to accept or decline to serve anyone who seeks their services, regardless of who has recommended that the individual see the physician. (III, VI) Issued prior to April 1977; Updated June 1994 and June 1996.

....

E-3.041 Chiropractic.

It is ethical for a physician to associate professionally with chiropractors provided that the physician believes that such association is in the best interests of his or her patient. A physician may refer a patient for diagnostic or therapeutic services to a chiropractor permitted by law to furnish such services whenever the physician believes that this may benefit his or her patient. Physicians may also ethically teach in recognized schools of chiropractic. (V, VI) Issued March 1992.
So, it appears that medical doctors are allowed some latitude with regard to advising patients on crackpot cures, but not too much. I suspect they give chiropractors slack because they have a stronger political lobby than other faith healers.

My own (anecdotal) experience, after a mid-spine back injury some years ago:

- The old fart doctor at Kaiser wasn't much help, beyond telling me to take aspirin for a while and come back for surgery if it appeared chronic.

- Accupuncture was a joke. After a couple of sessions it didn't seem to have any affect other than extreme pain if I made the mistake of shifting around on the table with two dozen needles in my back.

- Postural integration (it's like Rolfing, without the screaming) made me feel like I'd been tossed down a cliff. It hurt all over, which distracted me from the back pain for a while.

- Chiropractic "medicine" required X-rays and an interpretation that did not sound the least bit medical. We then proceeded to the room with the very expensive massage table that would have had a Spanish Inquisitor drooling, where he positioned me face-down underneath a giant mechanical arm equipped with a rubber-tipped pneumatic hammer, and without warning rabbit-punched me in the neck. After a couple more sessions of punching and poking and hundreds of dollars gone, I felt not much better and a little too numbed to admit to myself it was a crock of shit, but not too stupified to quit while I still had a bank account.

- What ended up working in the long term was simply keeping physically active, and avoiding desk jobs and saggy mattresses.
Amazing desert structures & stuff: http://sites.google.com/site/potatotrap/

"Let us say I suggest you may be human." -- Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam

User avatar
Ranger Genius
Posts: 2408
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 7:07 am
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain
Contact:

Post by Ranger Genius » Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:54 am

Your "anecdotal evidence" is pretty much in line with what the medical studies surrounding those treatment methods would predict. I did see that AMA policy, thank you for bringing it up. After a large number of lawsuits were filed by chiropractic doctors, the AMA had to soften its position on chiropractic "medicine," and pull down its study which condemned chiropractic as bunk.

Unfortunate that you can force policy changes on a group whose sole interest is people's well-being simply by being a litigious motherfucker.

I've never heard of postural integration.

Medical science has some failings..there are some things it can't cure, and there are some things that require surgery to cure them (like your condition), especially when it comes to the back and spine. Chiropractic "doctors" prey on our fear of surgery by offering a non-invasive "alternative," which at best, lets you heal yourself, usually makes no difference apart from causing you some discomfort, and at worst can make the problem much worse.
“We cross our bridges when we come to them and burn them behind us, with nothing to show for our progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a presumption that once our eyes watered.”

User avatar
rodent
Posts: 416
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 12:21 pm
Location: Santa Cruz, California
Contact:

Post by rodent » Wed Feb 16, 2005 10:05 am

Not that the fire needed more fuel or anything but...
FDA approves sale of prescription placebo
Date: September 26th 2003, 1:16pm

WASHINGTON, DC_After more than four decades of testing in tandem with other drugs, placebo gained approval for prescription use from the Food and Drug Administration Monday.

"For years, scientists have been aware of the effectiveness of placebo in treating a surprisingly wide range of conditions," said Dr. Jonathan Bergen of the FDA's Center for Drug Evaluation and Research. "It was time to provide doctors with this often highly effective option."

In its most common form, placebo is a white, crystalline substance of a sandy consistency, obtained from the evaporated juice of the Saccharum officinarum plant. The FDA has approved placebo in doses ranging from 1 to 40,000 milligrams.

The long-awaited approval will allow pharmaceutical companies to market placebo in pill and liquid form. Eleven major drug companies have developed placebo tablets, the first of which, AstraZeneca's Sucrosa, hits shelves Sept. 24.

"We couldn't be more thrilled to finally get this wonder drug out of the labs and into consumers' medicine cabinets," said Tami Erickson, a spokeswoman for AstraZeneca. "Studies show placebo to be effective in the treatment of many ailments and disorders, ranging from lower-back pain to erectile dysfunction to nausea."

Pain-sufferers like Margerite Kohler, who participated in a Sucrosa study in March, welcomed the FDA's approval.

"For years, I battled with strange headaches that surfaced during times of stress," Kohler said. "Doctors repeatedly turned me away empty-handed, or suggested that I try an over-the-counter pain reliever_as if that would be strong enough. Finally, I heard about Sucrosa. They said, 'This will work,' and it worked. The headaches are gone."

Researchers diagnosed Kohler with Random Occasional Nonspecific Pain and Discomfort Disorder (RONPDD), a minor but surprisingly pervasive medical condition that strikes otherwise healthy adults.

RONPDD is only one of many disorders for which placebo has proven effective, Bergen said.

"Placebo has been successful in the treatment of everything from lower-back pain to erectile dysfunction to nausea," Bergen said. "That's the beauty, and the mystery, of placebo. It's all-purpose. Think of it like aspirin, but without any of the analgesic properties."

The FDA is expected to approve the drug for a wide range of mood disorders later this year. According to Bergen, initial research has shown placebo to be effective in the treatment of bipolar disorder, depression, dysthymia, panic disorder, post traumatic stress disorder, seasonal affective disorder, and stress.

As industry analysts predict the drug's sales will top $25 billion in the first year, the approval of placebo is expected to unleash one of the pharmaceutical industry's biggest marketing battles to date.

Click here to view a larger or full version of this image.

Above: An advertisement for AstraZeneca's placebo Sucrosa. GlaxoSmithKline expects to have two versions of placebo on the shelves in late December. One, a 40-milligram pill called Appeasor, will be marketed to patients 55 and over, while the other, Inertra, designed for middle-aged women, is a liquid that comes in a 355-milliliter can, and is cola-flavored. Eli Lilly plans a $3 million marketing campaign for its 400-milligram tablet, Pacifex.

"All placebos are not the same," Eli Lilly spokesman Giles French said. "Pacifex is the only placebo that's green and shaped like a triangle. Pacifex: A doctor gave it to you."

Despite such ringing endorsements, some members of the medical community have spoken out against placebo's approval, saying that the drug's wide range of side effects is a cause for concern.

"Yes, placebo has benefits, but studies link it to a hundred different side effects, from lower-back pain to erectile dysfunction to nausea," drug researcher Patrick Wheeler said. "Placebo wreaked havoc all over the body, with no rhyme or reason. Basically, whichever side effects were included on the questionnaire, we found in research subjects."

Added Wheeler: "We must not introduce placebo to the public until we pinpoint exactly how and why it works. The drug never should have advanced beyond the stage of animal testing, which, for some reason, was totally ineffective in determining its effectiveness."

In spite of the confusing data, drug makers say placebo is safe.

"The only side effect consistent in all test subjects was a negligible one_an almost imperceptible elevation in blood-glucose levels," French said. "It's unfair to the American people to withhold a drug so many of them desperately think they need."

http://www.theonion.com/3936/news2.html
---
rodent (putting the eek in geek)

User avatar
DVD Burner
Posts: 9746
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 3:09 am
Contact:

Post by DVD Burner » Wed Feb 16, 2005 12:33 pm

Strange,

When I do a search on the NCAHF.org site about zoloft and a few other controversial "medications" I don’t get any results.

Wonder why that is?
[url=http://www.digicastinternational.com][img]http://76.14.56.240/digiweb/button10.jpg[/img][/url]

"[i][b]The art is in the digit![/b][/i]"

[url=http://eplaya.burningman.com/search.php?search_author=THE+ORIGINAL+DIGIMAN]The Original Digiman[/url]

User avatar
joel the ornery
Posts: 2657
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 3:28 pm
Burning Since: 1998
Location: i'm the snarky one in your worst fucking nightmares
Contact:

Did any of your mom's children live?

Post by joel the ornery » Wed Feb 16, 2005 1:11 pm

DVD Burner wrote:Strange,

When I do a search on the NCAHF.org site about zoloft and a few other controversial "medications" I don’t get any results.

Wonder why that is?
#1 because those drugs you refer to don't qualify as "health fraud, misinformation, and quackery as public health problems." as stated in their mission statement.
NCAHF Mission Statement
The National Council Against Health Fraud is a nonprofit, tax-exempt voluntary health agency that focuses its attention upon health fraud, misinformation, and quackery as public health problems. It is private, nonpartisan, and nonsectarian. Its members are health professionals, educators, researchers, attorneys, and other concerned citizens. Its officers and board members serve without compensation. This site contains hundreds of articles that can help people evaluate health claims.

Background History
The Council originated in 1977 as the Southern California Council Against Health Fraud, Inc. and became the California Council Against Health Fraud in 1978. The council became national in 1984. It is now incorporated in California and has members in all 50 states, the District of Columbia, and several foreign countries. Nearly all of our funding comes from membership dues and individual contributions.

Basic Principles
NCAHF bases its claim to be a consumer organization on its founding principles derived from consumer protection law and the scientific process. Included are the beliefs that:

Consumer" is not a special class but a role played by all; everyone in a free enterprise society has a stake in maintaining high standards for health products and services.
Professionals in the health sciences, academia, law and business as well as government agencies share a responsibility to help consumers protect themselves from deception and exploitation in health-related matters.
The scientific process is essential for discovering truths and validating health claims and information.
Health products and services should be:
proved safe and effective before marketing with proponents bearing the burden of such proof
accurately labeled or fully described
truthfully advertised.
As noted in the Consumer Bill of Rights, consumers have:
The right to free and informed choice
The right to accurate information
The right to safety
The right to be heard
The right to consumer education
Activities and Purposes
NCAHF's activities and purposes include:

Investigating and evaluating claims made for health products and services.
Educating consumers, professionals, business people, legislators, law enforcement personnel, organizations and agencies about health fraud, misinformation, and quackery.
Providing a center for communication between individuals and organizations concerned about health misinformation, fraud, and quackery.
Supporting sound consumer health laws
Opposing legislation that undermines consumer rights.
Encouraging and aiding legal actions against those who violate consumer protection laws.
Sponsoring a free weekly e-mail newsletter.
or

#2 you are just looking for a conspiracy where one does not exist...

or

#3 you are just stupid beyond one's ability to believe or comprehend..

or

#4 all of the above, which is my guess and personal favorite.

helitack
Posts: 4140
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:00 pm
Burning Since: 2004
Location: A secret, undisclosed location in TexMexistan...

Post by helitack » Wed Feb 16, 2005 1:40 pm

Basically it boils down to this:
If Chiro care makes you feel better, great
If Holistic practitioner makes you feel better, great
If a Curandera from Northern Chihuahua makes you feel better, great
If I have a broken leg, I go to a mechanic, an orthopaedic surgeon

Other than that, I don't give a fuck
Actively helping President Trump build the wall

Winning hearts and minds in lovely TexMexistan...

User avatar
jimbobby
Posts: 51
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 6:16 pm

Post by jimbobby » Wed Feb 16, 2005 1:43 pm

so sorry

The American National Council Against Health Fraud is an extra-governmental agency which works with industry-connected government agencies like the Food and Drugs Administration.

it's a pro industry lobbying and PR firm.

sort of like getting your global warming info from the petroleum institute. We know how you feel about the whole 'global warming lie' though.


remember, cigarettes are a healthful tonic too.
<oh my gawd!>

Post Reply

Return to “Open Discussion”