The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Postby Traveller in Time » Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:39 am

Another way to identify owners would be taxing guns.
As with insurance this could be a way to register ownership.
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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Postby Token » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:45 pm

ygmir wrote:
some seeing eye wrote:Actually insurance is a contract so it can include or exclude anything.

If the requirement by law for possessing a gun is a policy for X million liability coverage covering any acts, including illegal acts, the insurance companies would be motivated to find the mentally unstable gun owners and revoke their ownership. Car insurance covers illegal acts and insurers prune out high risk drivers. There are about 108 million gun owners in the US. You could collect a lot of premiums to settle liability. The number of mentally ill gun owners is small. A mandatory liability insurance system would also simplify the police removing guns from criminals too.

Here is some good data: http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2017/06/ ... ownership/

the insurance companies could not "revoke ownership" , they could only refuse to insure. And, if compelled to insure for illegal activities, I'd imagine the premiums would be astronomical.
nope, don't see it working.


Most states have mandatory car insurance.

In CA you can’t buy a car from a dealer without proof of insurance. I’ll continue using CA in this example ...

You get caught driving uninsured, CA yanks your drivers license, impounds your car. Costs you a small fortune to get your car back, get a provisional license good for going to and from work for a year. Sucks big time.

Same car insurance policy for a 21 year old driver is 10x more expensive than for a 27 year old driver, record being clean for both.

Can’t rent a car until you are 25 years old. There are a few rent-a-wreck type places but for the most part the insurance companies nix that idea real fast.

So, in principle, there are already established metrics on when young adults reach a relative maturity level with regards to operating potentially lethal machinery, in our example that be a car/truck.

One could argue that a reasonable licensing of non-hunting firearms and a “proof of insurance” for purchase and annual license renewal, much like we do with vehicles, could be beneficial.

Not saying it’s a solution but expect it would help. Heck, CA will likely get there in time anyway.

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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Postby JohnnyA » Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:30 pm

Traveller in Time wrote:Why not a graded licence/permit system?

There's already the model for one in place.

Congress banned the general sale of fully-automatic weapons back in 1934 ... but ownership and use of these weapons is still allowed, although heavily regulated, including background checks and storage requirements.

That law has been on the books for over 80 years, and could (presumably) be expanded without having to come up with a whole bunch of new laws that everyone would argue-to-death.

I'd suggest that concerned folks stop trying to repeal the 2nd Amendment (not likely to happen), and just focus on getting all semi-automatic rifles (and possibly handguns) classed as Title II Firearms.

That would allow them to stay in the hands of those collectors and enthusiasts that really, really, really want to keep them, if they're willing to go through background checks and show that they can be responsible gun owners, and it would (very likely) keep them out of the hands of the unstable folks who seem to be the ones misusing them against the general public.

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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Postby ygmir » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:04 am

Token wrote:
ygmir wrote:
some seeing eye wrote:Actually insurance is a contract so it can include or exclude anything.

If the requirement by law for possessing a gun is a policy for X million liability coverage covering any acts, including illegal acts, the insurance companies would be motivated to find the mentally unstable gun owners and revoke their ownership. Car insurance covers illegal acts and insurers prune out high risk drivers. There are about 108 million gun owners in the US. You could collect a lot of premiums to settle liability. The number of mentally ill gun owners is small. A mandatory liability insurance system would also simplify the police removing guns from criminals too.

Here is some good data: http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2017/06/ ... ownership/

the insurance companies could not "revoke ownership" , they could only refuse to insure. And, if compelled to insure for illegal activities, I'd imagine the premiums would be astronomical.
nope, don't see it working.


Most states have mandatory car insurance.

In CA you can’t buy a car from a dealer without proof of insurance. I’ll continue using CA in this example ...

You get caught driving uninsured, CA yanks your drivers license, impounds your car. Costs you a small fortune to get your car back, get a provisional license good for going to and from work for a year. Sucks big time.

Same car insurance policy for a 21 year old driver is 10x more expensive than for a 27 year old driver, record being clean for both.

Can’t rent a car until you are 25 years old. There are a few rent-a-wreck type places but for the most part the insurance companies nix that idea real fast.

So, in principle, there are already established metrics on when young adults reach a relative maturity level with regards to operating potentially lethal machinery, in our example that be a car/truck.

One could argue that a reasonable licensing of non-hunting firearms and a “proof of insurance” for purchase and annual license renewal, much like we do with vehicles, could be beneficial.

Not saying it’s a solution but expect it would help. Heck, CA will likely get there in time anyway.


My point about the insurance, is, that it will not cover a person in the case of an illegal activity. So, if they do indeed harm someone with it, or even if it's stolen and used by another, the insurance will not cover it. Just as in homeowners liability, it does not cover illegal actions.
So, I'm guessing most here have the idea that insurance can be used to raise the cost of ownership, and somehow making criminals not want or be able to get them?
Because, we know budget is primary for them.
Or, somehow, it will further make responsible (the ones who do get insured) gun owners, "more" responsible?
The disconnect for me, is this proposal, again, only effects responsible people, the people who don't harm other humans with guns, anyway. It does nothing to dissuade criminals from their activities.
Look at who these "mass shooters" are. Random. They have a few things in common, it seems, but, none of those are making sure they "follow the rules".
Doing "something" just for the sake of "doing something", and punishing responsible people in the bargain, just seems silly, especially when it won't work.

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If I slap you, are you mad at me, or my hand?

It's sort of like banning swimming pools, to stop drownings......there are still lots of lakes and ponds and buckets and toilets and the ocean.....Or requiring everyone within a quarter mile of a gallon of water to wear a life jacket...
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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Postby AntiM » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:28 am

"The disconnect for me, is this proposal, again, only effects responsible people, the people who don't harm other humans with guns, anyway. It does nothing to dissuade criminals from their activities. "

My problem with this variety of argument is it essentially means we shouldn't have laws at all because a few criminals break them. We don't leave our doors unlocked because some criminals break in through the window. We take precautions. We aren't talking about banning all guns or repealing the 2nd, we are sorting out which precautions are prudent, efficient, and enforceable. Might a few gun enthusiasts be inconvenienced or disappointed? Yes. Is that violating the 2nd? I never saw the 2nd as a free for all, but I am not a judge or a constitutional lawyer, that can be ruled on by those elected officials who are. Hopefully we can keep NRA money out of the process.

Seriously, I like to blow shit up and set things on fire as part of my pursuit of happiness, but I am not allowed to do that however, whenever, and with whatever materials I like, and that's a good thing. Guns in moderation, in my opinion, is a good thing too. We cannot just shut off the conversation because some people will find a way around any sort of regulation, that's just as reactionary as insisting on a total gun ban.

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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Postby ygmir » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:56 am

AntiM wrote:"The disconnect for me, is this proposal, again, only effects responsible people, the people who don't harm other humans with guns, anyway. It does nothing to dissuade criminals from their activities. "

My problem with this variety of argument is it essentially means we shouldn't have laws at all because a few criminals break them. We don't leave our doors unlocked because some criminals break in through the window. We take precautions. We aren't talking about banning all guns or repealing the 2nd, we are sorting out which precautions are prudent, efficient, and enforceable. Might a few gun enthusiasts be inconvenienced or disappointed? Yes. Is that violating the 2nd? I never saw the 2nd as a free for all, but I am not a judge or a constitutional lawyer, that can be ruled on by those elected officials who are. Hopefully we can keep NRA money out of the process.

Seriously, I like to blow shit up and set things on fire as part of my pursuit of happiness, but I am not allowed to do that however, whenever, and with whatever materials I like, and that's a good thing. Guns in moderation, in my opinion, is a good thing too. We cannot just shut off the conversation because some people will find a way around any sort of regulation, that's just as reactionary as insisting on a total gun ban.

as you may note, I was talking about the insurance idea, specifically. I'm open to hearing how requiring insurance, and especially insurance that won't cover an illegal act anyway, will do anything to prevent gun violence. Heck, even if it did cover an illegal act, how is it going to prevent anything? If I understand, the idea is to prevent these things?

I do agree with rules for guns. I live in CA, and our rules here are about as stringent as anywhere in the nation.
I don't know they've stopped much, but am ok with them as they are.
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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Postby AntiM » Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:05 am

I feel that insurance, being a manmade contract, can be written to do what is wanted and needed instead of being used as is. It is certainly worth looking at the possibility. If it won't work, fine, but I suspect it might.

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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Postby ygmir » Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:45 pm

AntiM wrote:I feel that insurance, being a manmade contract, can be written to do what is wanted and needed instead of being used as is. It is certainly worth looking at the possibility. If it won't work, fine, but I suspect it might.

what would insurance to, to cut down on gun violence? I mean, how would it do that?
I do understand, the idea that if you throw enough noodles against the wall, one might stick. But, understanding that once a "law" is passed, it's rarely undone, I just want to be careful about what gets on the plate.
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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Postby lucky420 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:05 pm

Ya gotta take the damn plate out of the cupboard so you can put something on it.

Outright ban on weapons of war and that’s what an AR is unless there are heavy background checks, psych review, age restrictions, and yes insurance. Maybe if we make them a bit harder to get and keep it will eventually lead to these weapons of war not being so readily available to the average lone white guy shoot everybody style at churches, concerts, movies, schools...

Yes the evil rich gangbangers will still have them but the average lone white shooter, not so much

Take the plate out of the cupboard
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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Postby Token » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:42 pm

ygmir wrote:what would insurance to, to cut down on gun violence? I mean, how would it do that?


It wouldn’t. What it could help with is keeping assault weapons outside the hands of children at the old sporting goods store or gun show.

That’s what the whole stink about anyway. Kids grabbing and AR and rampaging mass murder.

Gun violence is another beast altogether. The death toll from gun violence in many of our cities 52 weekends a year is many orders of magnitude greater than school shootings. But that is not what the big hubbub is all about.

It’s the darn assault weapons.

Let the fuckers learn how to shoot a bolt action like great gramps did in the world wars. It’ll rip their shoulders off. ;)

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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Postby JohnnyA » Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:37 pm

Token wrote:
ygmir wrote:It’s the darn assault weapons.

Let the fuckers learn how to shoot a bolt action like great gramps did in the world wars. It’ll rip their shoulders off. ;)

Hmmmmm ... I was on my school's rifle team shooting a bolt-action 30-calibre round at 1,000 yards at 17 years of age. :mrgreen:

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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Postby ygmir » Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:21 am

lucky420 wrote:Ya gotta take the damn plate out of the cupboard so you can put something on it.

Outright ban on weapons of war and that’s what an AR is unless there are heavy background checks, psych review, age restrictions, and yes insurance. Maybe if we make them a bit harder to get and keep it will eventually lead to these weapons of war not being so readily available to the average lone white guy shoot everybody style at churches, concerts, movies, schools...

Yes the evil rich gangbangers will still have them but the average lone white shooter, not so much

Take the plate out of the cupboard

well done, class, race and gender, all in one. funny how you don't apply that to other issues. All lone, mass shooters are not white.....nice try though.
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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Postby ygmir » Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:35 am

Token wrote:
ygmir wrote:what would insurance to, to cut down on gun violence? I mean, how would it do that?


It wouldn’t. What it could help with is keeping assault weapons outside the hands of children at the old sporting goods store or gun show.

That’s what the whole stink about anyway. Kids grabbing and AR and rampaging mass murder.

Gun violence is another beast altogether. The death toll from gun violence in many of our cities 52 weekends a year is many orders of magnitude greater than school shootings. But that is not what the big hubbub is all about.

It’s the darn assault weapons.

Let the fuckers learn how to shoot a bolt action like great gramps did in the world wars. It’ll rip their shoulders off. ;)


so, how doe insurance keep "assault weapons outside the hands of children at the old sporting goods store or gun show."?
I don't know you can buy and take a gun at the same time at gun shows, or at least not all? And, did these shooters get their guns, at gun shows? Or, did they get them far ahead of time (if bought, and longer than a waiting period), or take them from a friend? And again, the insurance would not cover a stolen gun. If somehow the edict was thrown down, that insurance had to cover stolen guns, and guns used illegally, I'd guess it'd de facto ban weapons, in that either the premiums would be out of reach for most, or insurance would just not write, and therefore, people could not own them. In that, it's a misuse of legislation. If they don't have the guts to just "ban" them, the cowardice is evident.

How often is it a "kid"? I mean numbers don't hold up. Yeah, it's horrific, but the odds are low and it again comes down to punishing the huge majority, for the random acts of the very very few. And yet, society does not think it's ok, in many other circumstances.
Lucky, above, hints at why it's ok, and I see that based on gender and race of most of the perps. Those are ok targets for being singled out and treated differently. How does that work?

your point about the ratio of general gun violence to "school shootings" is spot on.
and yeah, very different issues and events. And yet, the huge focus is on the rare, though horrific, events. Which does not take away from the horrible carnage, and I suspect it's used as a stepping stone.

All the hand wringing and running in circles screaming "someone should do something", is wasted energy, if it's things that won't work.
It makes all those folks feel super concerned and important, that they can be "righteously indignant" about a situation, but then only look for the easy fix. The fix that won't work, or barely have an effect, but makes it seem like "at least we are trying", when the matter is better addressed with direct actions towards the people who do the shooting. Identify, and treat or isolate them, as necessary. In pretty much every circumstance, these people were under direct observation and or well known to people and authorities as a possible risk. This would happen much faster than some sort of "ban" that would take years to be effective, due to court challenges, and general non compliance. And we all know there would be mass non compliance, partly made possible by the vast number of weapons in private hands, that there are no records of ownership or location for. Add to that the ease at which weapons cross our borders (fast and furious, smugglers, etc).
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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Postby Token » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:31 am

Yg, you’re getting stuck in the weeds. The insurance would only be a difficulty for entry, not some magic solution. It would add another check on evaluation of competence for owning an assault weapon.

It’s not about the utility of the insurance policy but the added layer of scrutiny for each individual wanting an assault weapon.

The reasonable controls that don’t trample on rights are the only path.

There are countless examples where we license people for things they want to do. Same should be applied here.

For Dogs sake, my damn plumber has been tested, bonded, insured, licensed just so he can auger some turds in my toilet!

Yet the paranoia in a small fraction of the populace that even reasonable cautions imposed on access and availability of assault weapons will somehow abolish the 2nd amendment borders on hysteria.

Like i said before, if you can’t rent a car, you should have access to an AR. It’s simple open market economy thinking applied to this situation.

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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Postby lucky420 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:03 am

ygmir wrote:
lucky420 wrote:Ya gotta take the damn plate out of the cupboard so you can put something on it.

Outright ban on weapons of war and that’s what an AR is unless there are heavy background checks, psych review, age restrictions, and yes insurance. Maybe if we make them a bit harder to get and keep it will eventually lead to these weapons of war not being so readily available to the average lone white guy shoot everybody style at churches, concerts, movies, schools...

Yes the evil rich gangbangers will still have them but the average lone white shooter, not so much

Take the plate out of the cupboard

well done, class, race and gender, all in one. funny how you don't apply that to other issues. All lone, mass shooters are not white.....nice try though.



well not all but a damn good many https://www.statista.com/statistics/476 ... er-s-race/

truth hurts
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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Postby ygmir » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:07 pm

lucky420 wrote:
ygmir wrote:
lucky420 wrote:Ya gotta take the damn plate out of the cupboard so you can put something on it.

Outright ban on weapons of war and that’s what an AR is unless there are heavy background checks, psych review, age restrictions, and yes insurance. Maybe if we make them a bit harder to get and keep it will eventually lead to these weapons of war not being so readily available to the average lone white guy shoot everybody style at churches, concerts, movies, schools...

Yes the evil rich gangbangers will still have them but the average lone white shooter, not so much

Take the plate out of the cupboard

well done, class, race and gender, all in one. funny how you don't apply that to other issues. All lone, mass shooters are not white.....nice try though.



well not all but a damn good many https://www.statista.com/statistics/476 ... er-s-race/

truth hurts

truth hurts? hardly. I don't really care.
But, hearing half truths, hyperbole and misinformation, is indeed frustrating.
Hand wringing, pointing and saying "someone should do something" with no plan that has a chance of working or happening, is, well...
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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Postby ygmir » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:10 pm

Token wrote:Yg, you’re getting stuck in the weeds. The insurance would only be a difficulty for entry, not some magic solution. It would add another check on evaluation of competence for owning an assault weapon.

It’s not about the utility of the insurance policy but the added layer of scrutiny for each individual wanting an assault weapon.

The reasonable controls that don’t trample on rights are the only path.

There are countless examples where we license people for things they want to do. Same should be applied here.

For Dogs sake, my damn plumber has been tested, bonded, insured, licensed just so he can auger some turds in my toilet!

Yet the paranoia in a small fraction of the populace that even reasonable cautions imposed on access and availability of assault weapons will somehow abolish the 2nd amendment borders on hysteria.

Like i said before, if you can’t rent a car, you should have access to an AR. It’s simple open market economy thinking applied to this situation.

How is it weeds?
I mean, the insurance, will only slow a person who obeys the laws anyway.
Anyone who would get insurance, is very very unlikely to commit a crime with said weapon

and to your license analogy:
well, people drive cars with no license, and no insurance.
Plumbers work without either.
In no way, does it stop this practice. and, it only applies to those who follow the rules anyway.
I'm saying, it won't slow down the super small number of mass shooters. How could it?
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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Postby lucky420 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:44 pm

The lone white guy shooter has done the most of these terrorist acts. What part of that is not true?

I mean the data proves the statistics.

You seem awfully offended by that and I don’t know why
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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Postby ygmir » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:57 pm

lucky420 wrote:The lone white guy shooter has done the most of these terrorist acts. What part of that is not true?

I mean the data proves the statistics.

You seem awfully offended by that and I don’t know why


interesting you'd not see the irony.
Stereotyping, for one.
generalizing?

Do you call out "black gang members" or "Latino gang members" when you talk about gang violence or activities? I'd bet not.
Though to be fair, I may see "lone white guy" with more sensitivity, in that it seems "white guys" are a very common group to be blamed for all the ills of the world. And, being one, I note it, I guess? I mean, especially the left, seems to go out of their way to not use gender, race, national origin, sexual identity, wealth or religion, when talking about most anyone except "white guys".
It's almost like you are profiling the "white guys".......
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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Postby Token » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:10 am

ygmir wrote:
How is it weeds?

I mean, the insurance, will only slow a person who obeys the laws anyway.



There you have it. Them is the weeds.

If proof of insurance is required to purchase an assault rifle to begin with, you can’t get one without it unless you are insurable, and history tells us insurance companies hate anyone younger than 25.

Again, this is for the case of a kid turning 18, legally purchasing an assault rifle, committing mass murder.

Not for gangs with Glocks, TEC 9s etc. doing street business. Not for folks stealing guns, That’s different problems.

Anyway, these discussions eventually go all circular logic.

The ultimate solution will be society realizing that natural selection and Darwinism will eventually make a comeback. It is a mathematical certainty.

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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Postby lucky420 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:38 am

ygmir wrote:
lucky420 wrote:The lone white guy shooter has done the most of these terrorist acts. What part of that is not true?

I mean the data proves the statistics.

You seem awfully offended by that and I don’t know why


interesting you'd not see the irony.
Stereotyping, for one.
generalizing?

Do you call out "black gang members" or "Latino gang members" when you talk about gang violence or activities? I'd bet not.
Though to be fair, I may see "lone white guy" with more sensitivity, in that it seems "white guys" are a very common group to be blamed for all the ills of the world. And, being one, I note it, I guess? I mean, especially the left, seems to go out of their way to not use gender, race, national origin, sexual identity, wealth or religion, when talking about most anyone except "white guys".
It's almost like you are profiling the "white guys".......


Hey! I’m not talking about gang violence. I’m talking about the lone shooter who shoots up concerts, churches, movie theaters, SCHOOLS. Yeah they are usually white
. It’s ok to not like them, I find it perplexing to defend them and not see them as a problem
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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Postby ygmir » Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:12 am

lucky420 wrote:
ygmir wrote:
lucky420 wrote:The lone white guy shooter has done the most of these terrorist acts. What part of that is not true?

I mean the data proves the statistics.

You seem awfully offended by that and I don’t know why


interesting you'd not see the irony.
Stereotyping, for one.
generalizing?

Do you call out "black gang members" or "Latino gang members" when you talk about gang violence or activities? I'd bet not.
Though to be fair, I may see "lone white guy" with more sensitivity, in that it seems "white guys" are a very common group to be blamed for all the ills of the world. And, being one, I note it, I guess? I mean, especially the left, seems to go out of their way to not use gender, race, national origin, sexual identity, wealth or religion, when talking about most anyone except "white guys".
It's almost like you are profiling the "white guys".......


Hey! I’m not talking about gang violence. I’m talking about the lone shooter who shoots up concerts, churches, movie theaters, SCHOOLS. Yeah they are usually white
. It’s ok to not like them, I find it perplexing to defend them and not see them as a problem


how, or where, do you see me "defending" them? Nowhere.
If you actually read what I wrote, I was calling the irony, of you using the terms "white guy" etc, when it's not 100%, when those same terms are avoided when talking about gang members and such.
as such, you are profiling. That was my only point.
I'm not offended, I'm struck by how easily you profile and generalize, when it comes to white males.
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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Postby ygmir » Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:35 am

Token wrote:
ygmir wrote:
How is it weeds?

I mean, the insurance, will only slow a person who obeys the laws anyway.



There you have it. Them is the weeds.

If proof of insurance is required to purchase an assault rifle to begin with, you can’t get one without it unless you are insurable, and history tells us insurance companies hate anyone younger than 25.

Again, this is for the case of a kid turning 18, legally purchasing an assault rifle, committing mass murder.

Not for gangs with Glocks, TEC 9s etc. doing street business. Not for folks stealing guns, That’s different problems.

Anyway, these discussions eventually go all circular logic.

The ultimate solution will be society realizing that natural selection and Darwinism will eventually make a comeback. It is a mathematical certainty.

I guess where our discussion and logic diverge, is, I feel you are wanting to "punish" the hugely vast majority of gun owners, with a fee, for the actions of one (?) shooter as you describe.
IE: How many, of the extremely rare "school shootings" have been carried out by a person under 25 who walked into a store and bought the weapon and then immediately went and committed the crime?
These are pretty typically carried out with a fair amount of planning and preparation, no? And usually by people of at least average intelligence. As such, I'd say it's pretty fair to expect this "rule" would be very easily circumvented.
So, as I see it, the insurance would not cover acts committed illegally, and would not stop the plans of a person willing to commit such acts, with a (usually) fairly well thought out plan and timeline.
As such, it only really increases the cost of ownership, for those who use them correctly and as allowed by law.

I don't see why this discussion does not veer towards identifying, monitoring, and if necessary isolating from society unless or untill "cured", these persons?
It seems so often to focus on "rules" and "bans" that, though sound super easy, will not be, and will be decades in the making, if they ever work, at all?

I mean, if it takes cops or national guard at schools, that is immediate. Same with allowing (not compelling), staff to be armed (though I can see an argument against that without specific training and vetting), and or fences.
I know people will say they don't want schools to look like a military base, or prison. Well, here's the thing, IMHO:
Until the people who commit these acts are neutralized, this is a reality.
Any gun ban or fee, will be glacially slow, and mostly not effective. There is no "magic wand" to wave and all guns disappear immediately, or even very soon.
In the mean time, these people are 'out there", and feeding off the infamy and notoriety of such actions.
The only immediate defense is physical. Long term solutions are just that, and open for debate, and should be, to come up with the best plans and compromise.
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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Postby AntiM » Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:53 am

Why can't we have several solutions? Make gun sales and ownership more arduous, AND physically protect the students, AND provide better mental health/identification programs?

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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Postby ygmir » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:30 am

AntiM wrote:Why can't we have several solutions? Make gun sales and ownership more arduous, AND physically protect the students, AND provide better mental health/identification programs?

we can! I think it's very possible to come up with compromises and things that will actually work.
I just fear the knee jerk reactions, the ones that won't work, but, once in place, will never be undone.
I think the first step is to secure campuses, physically.
then address both sides, as far as the humans and the weapons, in a well thought out way.
Considering "the numbers" when negotiating, understanding, we can never legislate, or have a perfectly safe society, and maintain any sort of freedoms.
Even the harshest, most repressive and controlling governments in history, have not created perfectly safe societies.
Humans are a random draw, and as such, all things can't be avoided.
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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Postby Simon of the Playa » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:31 am

“we should just take them away without due process”...DJT




easy peasy, pumpkin pie.
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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Postby ygmir » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:33 am

Simon of the Playa wrote:“we should just take them away without due process”...DJT




easy peasy, pumpkin pie.

did he say that? I missed it.
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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Postby goathead » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:40 am

Token wrote:Folks, the writing is on the wall.

The 223 Is out.

Re-chamber to 7.62 x 51 stat!

;)


.224 Valkrie :D

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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Postby goathead » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:43 am

lucky420 wrote:
ygmir wrote:
lucky420 wrote:Ya gotta take the damn plate out of the cupboard so you can put something on it.

Outright ban on weapons of war and that’s what an AR is unless there are heavy background checks, psych review, age restrictions, and yes insurance. Maybe if we make them a bit harder to get and keep it will eventually lead to these weapons of war not being so readily available to the average lone white guy shoot everybody style at churches, concerts, movies, schools...

Yes the evil rich gangbangers will still have them but the average lone white shooter, not so much

Take the plate out of the cupboard

well done, class, race and gender, all in one. funny how you don't apply that to other issues. All lone, mass shooters are not white.....nice try though.



well not all but a damn good many https://www.statista.com/statistics/476 ... er-s-race/

truth hurts


Google population demographics. % wise not much differance.

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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Postby goathead » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:59 am

lucky420 wrote:The lone white guy shooter has done the most of these terrorist acts. What part of that is not true?

I mean the data proves the statistics.

You seem awfully offended by that and I don’t know why


Kind of like how Muslims feel when they are all blamed when some fanatic kills a bunch of people.
Its wrong to paint them all terrorists few the acts of others. But you have no problem using that brush on others.


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