The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Post by lucky420 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:50 am

goathead wrote:
lucky420 wrote:The lone white guy shooter has done the most of these terrorist acts. What part of that is not true?

I mean the data proves the statistics.

You seem awfully offended by that and I don’t know why
Kind of like how Muslims feel when they are all blamed when some fanatic kills a bunch of people.
Its wrong to paint them all terrorists few the acts of others. But you have no problem using that brush on others.
Talking about people who shoot up theaters, concerts, churches, SCHOOLS usually are white loner guys. Wow, you white guys are really butt hurt. But you’re not lone shooter weirdos but keep defending them...

I certainly wouldn’t defend white moms who kill their kids, or moms of any color that would do such an act

Oh and funny thing, no one in political power is calling these lone shooters what they are. They are terrorist
Oh my god, it's HUGE!

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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Post by FlyingMonkey » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:29 am

So, on a rare occasion I do somewhat agree with Lucky, mass shootings are typically committed by crazy white guys. What she failed to mention while over generalizing and marginalizing "white men" (who may or may not be crazy) is the fact that overall gun murders in this country are not committed with "assault rifles" and that your average white guy is actually pretty stable.

But we will always have Paris.......Oh wait, those were terrorists. Nevermind.
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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Post by lucky420 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:03 pm

FlyingMonkey wrote:So, on a rare occasion I do somewhat agree with Lucky, mass shootings are typically committed by crazy white guys. What she failed to mention while over generalizing and marginalizing "white men" (who may or may not be crazy) is the fact that overall gun murders in this country are not committed with "assault rifles" and that your average white guy is actually pretty stable.

But we will always have Paris.......Oh wait, those were terrorists. Nevermind.
True but I am talking about weapons of war and the mass shootings that we have had since 1980’s to date
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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Post by Token » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:23 pm

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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Post by Simon of the Playa » Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:20 pm

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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Post by FlyingMonkey » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:19 pm

lucky420 wrote:
FlyingMonkey wrote:So, on a rare occasion I do somewhat agree with Lucky, mass shootings are typically committed by crazy white guys. What she failed to mention while over generalizing and marginalizing "white men" (who may or may not be crazy) is the fact that overall gun murders in this country are not committed with "assault rifles" and that your average white guy is actually pretty stable.

But we will always have Paris.......Oh wait, those were terrorists. Nevermind.
True but I am talking about weapons of war and the mass shootings that we have had since 1980's to date
Then you are confusing the AR-15 with the M-16 & M-4 and there are significant differences between them & typically civilians can't own the military weapons. As for "crazy white males", yes they do commit the majority of mass shootings, but from 1982-2018 it was only slightly over half. So I stand by "over-generalizing an marginalizing" as accurate. :shock:

There are semi auto hunting rifles that have large round capacities & high rates of fire but they are not considered "assault rifles" nor are they weapons of war. They can be just as deadly (or more) in the wrong hands as an AR-15. You can't label one as an unacceptable threat to society and not the other. Where does that end?

Just because the AR-15 is black and scary looking doesn't make it any more dangerous that many completely legal hunting rifles.

I understand your point of view but I think you may be focusing on the action/result rather than the cause & that will always produce a faulty solution.
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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Post by MrHedgehog » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:51 pm

FlyingMonkey wrote: I understand your point of view but I think you may be focusing on the action/result rather than the cause & that will always produce a faulty solution.
Hmmmmm ... the "cause" ... :?: :?: :?:

I don't see most-folks being overly worried by gun-deaths that are suicide, or are from criminals killing each other for business/turf/ego reasons.


From my POV, what freaks most people out, is the idea that some mentally-unstable asshat is going to let loose in a public place, and kill a whole random bunch of folks/kids that didn't have any reason (in a sane society) to be fearing death-at-any-moment.

You may want to argue that mandatory mental-health checks on all high-capacity & high-rate-of-fire weapons would be appropriate ... and if so, then I'd agree.


But, really, you seem to me more concerned that law-abiding white guys might possibly find that their access to their toys could get more difficult, or even be taken away from them.


Sorry ... but semi-auto "assault-style" weapons, don't have any sane place in public hands in a civilized society (IMHO), especially those that were created (like the commercial AR-15 variants) solely because the Nation Firearms Act of 1934 banned the general public's ownership of fully-automatic weapons, and thus the original military-grade versions of those weapons.

FlyingMonkey wrote: Just because the AR-15 is black and scary looking doesn't make it any more dangerous that many completely legal hunting rifles.
Absolutely!

I've owned both CA-registered AR-15-variant "assault weapons", and also a 30-calibre semi-auto CA-registered "assault weapon" that could have been described (with tongue-in-cheek) as a hunting rifle, and so I have some slight passing-acquaintance with the subject.


When comparing modern semi-automatic detachable-magazine-fed weapons, to the bolt-action hunting rifles that have been around for well over a hundred years ... i.e. what your dad/grandad used when hunting ... then there's really no comparison.


Sorry, but your argument about semi-auto hunting rifles really just doesn't hold water (IMHO).

If you're a hunter that can only kill an animal because you throw a dozen rounds (or more) down-range, with the consequent lack-of-precision-aiming, then you're not a "hunter".

For gawd's sake, your "hunter" forebears were perfectly capable of putting meat-on-the-table with bolt-action, single-shot, and muzzle-loading firearms, ... or if you want to go back far enough ... with sharp sticks.

Good hunters don't need semi-auto rifles, they just need to take the time and effort to learn to hit what they're aiming at.

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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Post by Simon of the Playa » Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:57 am

“Good hunters don't need semi-auto rifles, they just need to take the time and effort to learn to hit what they're aiming at.”

^boom shaka laka...^


everything else just means you have dick issues.
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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Post by ygmir » Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:40 am

Token wrote:
Anyway, these discussions eventually go all circular logic.

The ultimate solution will be society realizing that natural selection and Darwinism will eventually make a comeback. It is a mathematical certainty.
you boiled it down, soon. I should have seen that.
Many will not agree, and sometimes I even get caught up in thinking others will listen and understand, even if not agreeing.
I guess, ultimately, we'll see where legislators take this, as ordered by their owners. Whomever has the deepest pockets, will win. Make no mistake, it will have little to do with what's "right", in someones opinion.

I'll not convince you, you'll not convince me, yet we both feel we are correct.
Fair enough.
To be fair, as relates to private ownership and freedoms thereof, I hope I'm wrong. I just don't think I am.
If you're wrong, we, or futures generations, are in trouble.
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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Post by ygmir » Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:53 am

Simon of the Playa wrote:“Good hunters don't need semi-auto rifles, they just need to take the time and effort to learn to hit what they're aiming at.”

^boom shaka laka...^


everything else just means you have dick issues.
sort of analogous to carrying a sawed off shotgun while traveling "for protection"?
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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Post by tatonka » Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:40 am

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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Post by FlyingMonkey » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:51 am

JohnnyA wrote:
FlyingMonkey wrote: I understand your point of view but I think you may be focusing on the action/result rather than the cause & that will always produce a faulty solution.
Hmmmmm ... the "cause" ... :?: :?: :?:

I don't see most-folks being overly worried by gun-deaths that are suicide, or are from criminals killing each other for business/turf/ego reasons.

Yeah, that's my point. Why not?

These mass shootings while horrible are only a small percentage of gun homicides each year. You are more likely to be killed by a Gangbangers stray bullet than a "crazy white guy" opening fire in a crowd. But the media is driven by profit & ratings so they sensationalize these events disproportionately compared to mundane everyday gun murders. So the public freaks out & insists that we ban weapons that we perceive as "Weapons of war" when all along the real present & persistent threat to society is probably handguns.

My point before about AR-15's not being a "weapon of war" was is simple. It is not. We send our troops in to harms way with M-16's & M-4's. The AR-15 is a civilian version of these but lacks the full-auto/burst mode of fire among other things. I like to shoot but I don't hunt. In my opinion you cant restrict or ban the AR-15 and not ban just about every semi-auto rifle. That won't happen. Focus on what you can reasonably accomplish that will have the biggest impact.

The Cause....
Yes I think the cause is much more important than the act. The act occurred & you can't change that. Focusing on the act will not prevent future occurrences of it. My point was that we need to stop running around screaming "Oh my god, oh my god, crazy white guys are killing everyone with assault rifles" and focus on:

"Hey, how did THAT kid get an AR-15?"(so much was missed)
"What drove him to snap & kill so many people?"(could he have been helped)
"Is there a way we can identify people who pose a risk to society and prevent this in the future?"

We need to be able to answer those questions and react in a way that does not infringe on the rights of normal law abiding citizens.

Get over the gun. That AR-15 in someone else's possession would not have killed those people (most AR-15's never will), but the killer would have found a way to inflict injuries on his targets no matter what. He was smart & thoroughly planned his attach. It could have just as easily been a building fire with blocked exits, a large heavy vehicle, a bomb, a machete..... One of the worst mass killings in this country (168 people, many children) was done with a rental truck, ammonium nitrate, & fuel. Did we ban box trucks? No, we put reasonable restrictions on acquiring certain chemicals. I have no problem with thorough background checks, aggregating data to help identify people with known mental disorders or numerous conflicts with police. Things like bump stocks should not be legal. And as much as I would like a suppressed semi-auto rifle I question the non-military need for them.

There are a lot of smart things we can do to help prevent mass killings but if we only focus on the act of killing & not the root causes we will accomplish nothing.
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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Post by Simon of the Playa » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:53 am

my friend said it was for plinking.



the sheriff insisted that it was for protection.



who was he to talk back?
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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Post by Token » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:58 am

ygmir wrote:
I'll not convince you, you'll not convince me, yet we both feel we are correct.
Fair enough.
I didn’t think we needed any convincing. It was a dialog with differing views. Perfectly fine.

We not that far apart. My pet peeve with assault weapons is that kids shouldn’t have access. No point. Let them have a Ruger 22 plinker when they’re 21 and unlock the big calibers later in their life.

If you’re a 50 year old geezer and want an AK47, SKS, M-16 ...I’m fine with that. Plenty countries in the world have conscription where folks take their HK, AK, M ... home after they do their 1, 2 or 4 years and they don’t got crazy shooters.

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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Post by ygmir » Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:13 pm

Token wrote:
ygmir wrote:
I'll not convince you, you'll not convince me, yet we both feel we are correct.
Fair enough.
I didn’t think we needed any convincing. It was a dialog with differing views. Perfectly fine.

We not that far apart. My pet peeve with assault weapons is that kids shouldn’t have access. No point. Let them have a Ruger 22 plinker when they’re 21 and unlock the big calibers later in their life.

If you’re a 50 year old geezer and want an AK47, SKS, M-16 ...I’m fine with that. Plenty countries in the world have conscription where folks take their HK, AK, M ... home after they do their 1, 2 or 4 years and they don’t got crazy shooters.
I'll not convince you, you'll not convince me, yet we both feel we are correct.
Fair enough.


I didn’t think we needed any convincing. It was a dialog with differing views. Perfectly fine.


yeah, sorry, I was using "you" in the broad term as in "anyone". I agree, we were just having a discussion and making points.



and I get your peeve. I just see, though, that the vast, vast majority of "kids" who have AR's or whatever, don't do wrong. I mean really, count the number of "kids" who hurt others with a semi auto rifle, and compare that to the number of "kids" who have access to one? I'd bet it's not even mathematically on the page as a percentage. And so, we punish a huge number of "kids", who have done, or will do, nothing wrong. Knowing, that the "kids" who are determined, will get hold of what they need/want, anyway.
How, do you draw an arbitrary line on "kid"? I know plenty of 15 year olds I'd trust over many many 30 year olds.
That said, though I'd not favor it, I'd not scream and cry if some sort of "21 to buy this type weapon" thing happened. But, I'd like a provision wherein they could still use them, in certain circumstances, such as being in the military, police forces, certain shooting competitions, and such, or practicing for same.
To address "who needs a semi auto" for hunting? And the naive, uninformed statements that it should always be a "one shot kill":
Well, the world is not perfect. And yeah, even the best marksmen don't drop their quarry with one shot, all the time. This does not mean they "spray" bullets to hit something......but, when tracking a target through a scope, and firing, you then watch. If, indeed, it does not go right down, you shoot again. This is best accomplished, and fastest follow up, with a semi-auto. You don't lose sight of the quarry with a semi auto, where with any other action type, you will mostly, as you operate the action. And this all happens in a very, very short period of time.
**to be fair, when I was a hunter, I used a bolt action. Only one deer ever required a "second shot", and would not have, except I did not want it to suffer, for the few seconds it stood. The initial wound was more than mortal, but I did not know or want to find out**
Rather than arguing the repeat chambering mechanism, I can see a valid discussion related to magazine capacity.
It's valid to argue no one needs more than 10 shots at something. And, especially hunting, you can carry extra clips, and if you've shot that many times, can't be in much of a hurry by the time you're out of shells, to change magazines. Heck, most hunting magazines hold 5 or less. So, there's that.
Many will say this is putting too fine a point on it. I'd disagree. Terms and specifics matter.
Saying a particular gun is a "weapon of war", because it's black and scary looking, is just some group speak phrase, for effect. Again, it may well be argued related to magazine capacity, but not the weapon, it'self. This comes from the uniformed, thinking they know something, and using their "righteous indignation" to try to bully a point across.
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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Post by lucky420 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:10 pm

I don’t say”weapon of war” lightly and not because it’s black and scary looking. I say it because of the mass damage it can do in just a few seconds. Maybe that’s the magazine capacity, whatever can cause damage like that, I consider a weapon of war, as do others.

Righteous indignation to bully a point? Well if others are that tender footed....

And if some use righteous indignation then I guess you could call others out on their whataboutisms to bully a point

Yes we have different opinions and we could bump heads forever but lifes to short so kisses instead of knuckle sammiches
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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Post by goathead » Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:04 pm

Simon of the Playa wrote:“Good hunters don't need semi-auto rifles, they just need to take the time and effort to learn to hit what they're aiming at.”

^boom shaka laka...^


everything else just means you have dick issues.
Dick issues? Really?

How many different skill sets do you have?
Never enjoy working with anything new?

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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Post by goathead » Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:14 pm

How did we reduce drunk driving fatalities?
How are we working to reduce texting and driving fatalities?

I see all sorts of PSA's on both subjects all the time.

We all basically know where each other stands on this subject.
Traded insults, stomped on toes, throat punched a time or two.

Maybe its time to think outside of the box?

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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Post by Simon of the Playa » Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:41 am

how bout we melt them down and turn them into plowshares?


or is that too outside the box for you...
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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Post by goathead » Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:49 am

Simon of the Playa wrote:how bout we melt them down and turn them into plowshares?


or is that too outside the box for you...
https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/inside- ... er-1819337

How much of the 1st are you willing to give up?

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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Post by Simon of the Playa » Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:07 am

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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Post by some seeing eye » Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:19 am

There is no reason for an ordinary person to have a military rifle. There was an article in Wired a few years ago on why which is not for the squeamish.

Mental illness - health is a continuum. People can cycle into mental unhealth. People in mental ill health should not have access to a gun.

The US philosophy to protect against terrorism is defense in depth, including stings of potential mass bombers. What would defense in depth against gun violence look like?

The problem with the NRA is that they have set up a system of laws and corruption in depth to prevent any kind of rational gun regulation.

"Gun nut" is a descriptive phrase. Many people have gun(s) for the wrong reason and many of them are people who should not have guns.

Our gun culture, lax laws and the sheer number of guns enables criminals to use them. That needs to be severely dialed back.

Guns have become a fetish in movies and television and that is both unhealthy and unnecessary. British police and spy dramas do fine without them.

The fantasy that we are going to have shootouts in public places between the bad guys and armed citizens is simply a fantasy. Leave that to trained police with numbers, negotiation, uniforms to identify who is who and a superior communications system.
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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Post by FlyingMonkey » Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:21 am

Simon of the Playa wrote:how bout we melt them down and turn them into plowshares?


or is that too outside the box for you...
Do you have any idea what the impact to the plowshare industry would be? The price of plowshares would plummet when the supply exceeded the demand & plowshare workers would be getting laid off left & right.

Admit it, you just hate plowshare producers don't you.
plowshare.jpg
Luddite much? :shock:
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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Post by Traveller in Time » Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:47 am

Melting would benefit the car industry with the current potential lack of steel
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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Post by goathead » Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:11 am

Traveller in Time wrote:Melting would benefit the car industry with the current potential lack of steel
How about planters?

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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Post by goathead » Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:13 am

Simon of the Playa wrote:http://biblehub.com/isaiah/2-4.htm
Quoting bible stuff? Are you really Simon?
:shock:

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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Post by FlyingMonkey » Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:30 am

some seeing eye wrote:There is no reason for an ordinary person to have a military rifle. There was an article in Wired a few years ago on why which is not for the squeamish.

Mental illness - health is a continuum. People can cycle into mental unhealth. People in mental ill health should not have access to a gun.

The US philosophy to protect against terrorism is defense in depth, including stings of potential mass bombers. What would defense in depth against gun violence look like?

The problem with the NRA is that they have set up a system of laws and corruption in depth to prevent any kind of rational gun regulation.

"Gun nut" is a descriptive phrase. Many people have gun(s) for the wrong reason and many of them are people who should not have guns.

Our gun culture, lax laws and the sheer number of guns enables criminals to use them. That needs to be severely dialed back.

Guns have become a fetish in movies and television and that is both unhealthy and unnecessary. British police and spy dramas do fine without them.

The fantasy that we are going to have shootouts in public places between the bad guys and armed citizens is simply a fantasy. Leave that to trained police with numbers, negotiation, uniforms to identify who is who and a superior communications system.

When you say ordinary person I assume you mean average sane, law abiding people. I have no problem with ordinary people having bazookas muchless semi-auto rifles. Unless you spend a lot of money & complete a lot of paperwork you cannot own/use a military weapon. That process usually helps identify people that should not have them, but not always. To be honest the big feature that makes a weapon "Military" is the burst/full-auto firing capability & that only makes your shots wildly inaccurate. My point is most civilians cannot own a true military weapon and that the semi-auto rifles that seem to be the focus (AR-15) are no different than other semi-auto rifles that look like traditional hunting rifles. So in my opinion you can't ban one without banning them all. But guns by themselves are not the problem.

The problem is Non-ordinary people with mental illness are getting and using guns. Fix that & you fix most mass shootings.

Fail to fix that & you have solved nothing.

(Broken record, I know) The majority of gun homicides are committed with handguns and the AR-15 is not a "military weapon" anyway. It is a civilian version of the M-16/M-4 without the features that would make it a military weapon. We are not sending a single soldier in to conflict with an AR-15.

The term "gun nut" is no better than "crazy white guy" and is inaccurate, misleading and serves no purpose in a healthy discussion where people have obvious differences of opinion.

Most gun owners don't fantasize about getting in to Hollywood shootouts. Many are genuinely concerned about their safety. While I admit that they are the exception & not the rule I can point to recent events where "a good guy with a gun stopped a bad guy with a gun". The Texas church shooter was stopped by a citizen with an AR-15. Last week a woman shot someone carjacking her. It happens.

And YES, like most lobbyist, the NRA is an evil self serving organization that seems more concerned about preserving their high paid jobs more than defending gun rights. Their influence has been very corrupting.

The Second Amendment at it's core is much deeper than people know & not really about guns. It's worth an actual read for anyone using it in discussions.
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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Post by tatonka » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:45 am

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Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Post by Simon of the Playa » Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:16 am

goathead wrote:
Simon of the Playa wrote:http://biblehub.com/isaiah/2-4.htm
Quoting bible stuff? Are you really Simon?
:shock:
thought you’d like that... :twisted:
Frida Be You & Me

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tatonka
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Camp Name: Camp Threat
Location: oregon

Re: The NRA and outdoor brands like Camelbak & Camp Chef

Post by tatonka » Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:33 am

Image
Tales told
Of battles won
Of things we've done
Caligula would grin

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