California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

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Canoe
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Canoe » Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:38 am

Canoe wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:59 pm
PG&E Fails to Have Law Holding It Liable for Billions in Wildfire Damages Thrown Out
https://earther.gizmodo.com/pg-e-fails-to-have-law-holding-it-liable-for-billions-i-1840074654
  • Californian utility giant Pacific Gas and Electric (PG&E) has agreed a $13.5bn (£10.2bn) settlement with victims of wildfires in the state.
  • PG&E President Bill Johnson said since entering the bankruptcy process "getting wildfire victims fairly compensated, especially the individuals, has been our primary goal."
www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50697816
Hmmm
How does that song go? One of these things, isn't like the others...
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by XPTom » Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:01 am

$13.5B sounds modest enough to be workable, but I doubt it.

$ 13.5B from a company that serves 5.2M households will cost $2,600 per customer.

This settlement is 4.2 times more than PGE market capitalization …..brand stockholders as you wish, but neither mom and pop investors nor evil robber barons like to miss the next 420% of returns.

Insurance companies will foot some of this, but in the end they are us. They will recover all losses from homeowners and utility companies in the form of rate hikes.

The solutions to grid related fires will soon become the problem. Google battery fires, solar panel roof fires, or generator deaths. Cautionary grid shutdowns are motivating thousands to install backup systems that will soon make current grid dangers look like the good old days. I'll go out on a limb here and predict backup or off grid systems are one tragic fire away from being the next controversy.
How many old burners does it take to change a light bulb? Just one to change the bulb..... and five more to reminisce how good the old bulb was....

flexibility is the key to success....... and poor planning is the key to flexibility

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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Token » Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:10 am

Fun times ahead ...
A group of more than 100 elected California leaders on Thursday announced details about what they want PG&E's future to look like.

The leaders, which include the mayors of San Jose, Oakland and Santa Cruz, revealed a vision of a nonprofit cooperative that would raise an estimated $60 billion needed to pay creditors and wildfire victims, the East Bay Times reported.

The coalition’s plan was first announced in a letter to the California Public Utilities Commission last month after several blackouts imposed by the utility to avoid new wildfires, but since then, support from local officials has grown.

Under the proposal, an electric cooperative made up of private, independent, nonprofit businesses owned by their customers who elect its directors would take over PG&E (NYSE: PCG) and its transmission system with a new governing body.
The full scoop is here :

https://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisc ... or-pg.html

Will be interesting if this gets officially filed with the judge and puts pressure on the outcome in June next year.

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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by XPTom » Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:47 am

Token wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:10 am
Fun times ahead ...
…...revealed a vision of a nonprofit cooperative that would raise an estimated $60 billion needed to pay creditors and wildfire victims......
This may be good time for Californians to revisit the history of when Union Carbide sold the King City Calidria (asbestos) mine to employees who bought it to protect their jobs. It worked better for Union Carbide than the new owners.
How many old burners does it take to change a light bulb? Just one to change the bulb..... and five more to reminisce how good the old bulb was....

flexibility is the key to success....... and poor planning is the key to flexibility

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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by ygmir » Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:12 am

XPTom wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:47 am
Token wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:10 am
Fun times ahead ...
…...revealed a vision of a nonprofit cooperative that would raise an estimated $60 billion needed to pay creditors and wildfire victims......
This may be good time for Californians to revisit the history of when Union Carbide sold the King City Calidria (asbestos) mine to employees who bought it to protect their jobs. It worked better for Union Carbide than the new owners.
good point.
I see a lot of hand waving and circle running, mostly by politicians (not "leaders", they are "servants", or should be, anyway) and such. People looking for attention, and votes....The thing that concerns me, most, is that they don't have an idea as to long term effects of all these ideas, and are proposing things in a very "idealistic" view, where everything goes right, there are no surprises, and humans are not corrupt or greedy... And most seem to ignore the part individuals play in these fires: Many, I'd argue the majority, people, don't keep their property and buildings fire safe. Along with public lands that have been poorly maintained (restricted logging, clearing, and road building). It's not as simple as "oh, those bad power company people".....by which, in no way do I absolve PGE (et al), from the responsibility of not maintaining equipment as it should be. But, I don't see it as a narrow beam of responsibility.
Also, the only way I see out of the PSPS's (Public Safety Power Shutoffs, for those not here local), is to absolve power companies of overall liability for large scale fires, that are additionally sever, due to issues I state above. Though, that in itself, will bring issues, with insurance companies, I'm sure. I know a lot of folks had fire insurance, to cover losses in these huge conflagrations, and so I'm thinking a lot of the final PGE settlement, will go to reimburse insurance companies.
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Token » Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:01 pm

Uncle Gavin says: Nyet!

https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/12/13/ ... ankruptcy/

Rejected the $13.5 Billion (of which $11B would go to insurance companies... surprise).

Do not pass go.

Do not exit bankruptcy.

Jello Biafra needs to re-spin California Uber Ales for uncle Gavin.

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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Token » Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:27 am

Token wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:01 pm
Uncle Gavin says: Nyet!

https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/12/13/ ... ankruptcy/

Rejected the $13.5 Billion (of which $11B would go to insurance companies... surprise).

Do not pass go.

Do not exit bankruptcy.

Jello Biafra needs to re-spin California Uber Ales for uncle Gavin.
Correction:

The Reuters story was a bit more clear on the payout and who gets what:
Prior to its $13.5 billion deal with victims, the company recently reached an $11 billion settlement with insurance companies and a $1 billion settlement with local governments for fire losses.
So the breakdown is:

Victims - $13.5B
Insurance - $11B
Municipalities- $1B

So grand total of $25.5B

My “surprise” editorial was unwarranted. My bad.

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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by ygmir » Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:03 am

I think this applies right here in CA, spot on, IMHO. Not the whole story, but the biggest part.
Accurate, if people can read it and get past their own bias, confirmational and political...


https://volunteerfirefighters.org.au/it ... 8MTtdeL7FU
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Canoe » Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:50 pm

ygmir wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:03 am
I think this applies right here in CA, spot on, IMHO. Not the whole story, but the biggest part.
Accurate, if people can read it and get past their own bias, confirmational and political...


https://volunteerfirefighters.org.au/it ... 8MTtdeL7FU
Link without the tracking...
https://volunteerfirefighters.org.au/it ... es-at-risk
4.669
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That's one word I regret googling during breakfast.
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Video games are giving kids unrealistic expectations on how many swords they can carry.
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Canoe » Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:32 am

sigh
It seemed obvious at the time, but really...

‘Blatant manipulation’: Trump administration exploited wildfire science to promote logging
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... -emissions
4.669
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That's one word I regret googling during breakfast.
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Video games are giving kids unrealistic expectations on how many swords they can carry.
.
, but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by lucky420 » Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:50 am

Not surprised. That little bitch weasel will do anything to line his pockets.
Oh my god, it's HUGE!

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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Canoe » Tue May 05, 2020 6:07 am

An article looking back, with some accounts from a book.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... ok-extract
4.669
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That's one word I regret googling during breakfast.
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Video games are giving kids unrealistic expectations on how many swords they can carry.
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, but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Canoe » Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:32 am

(I don't know how accurate this is, as the BBC tends to understate things.)
www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53072946
Pacific Gas & Electric (PG&E) admitted the 2018 Camp Fire, the state's deadliest and most destructive, was caused by its faulty equipment.
  • The Camp Fire began after a suspension hook on a nearly century-old tower broke and caused a power line to fall and release sparks on to dry grass in the Sierra foothills.
  • In Butte County Superior Court on Tuesday, an image of each victim was displayed on a screen as PG&E's chief executive Bill Johnson pleaded to every single count of involuntary manslaughter, responding 84 times: "Guilty, your honour."
  • PG&E also admitted one count of unlawfully starting a fire because it did not properly maintain the power line, which ignited in a forested area known for strong winds.
  • PG&E will be sentenced later this week.
  • The company will be fined millions of dollars, but no-one will go to jail.
  • But some survivors have condemned the plea deal as a slap on the wrist for PG&E, which has been linked to several dangerous blazes since 2015. They accuse state officials of long failing to hold the utility accountable because of its political clout.
4.669
.
That's one word I regret googling during breakfast.
.
Video games are giving kids unrealistic expectations on how many swords they can carry.
.
, but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Token » Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:50 am

It’s accurate. There are US based outlets that covered the same story.

I’m bummed Geisha Williams didn’t have to stand before the Judge and say “guilty” 85 times. She was the CEO at the time of the fire.

And poor Bill Johnson I’m sure is weeping through his $3M signing bonus and $2.5M base salary...

I suppose I should change the oil in my Honda generators cuz the fires have already started and Playa-Life is a regular feature in the California foothills.

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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by XPTom » Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:42 pm

Looks like pennies on the dollar compared to actual damages, but PG&E doesn't have the pennies. They have filed for bankruptcy. They have missed payments on debt, and stock is trading at 1/4 its pre-fire value. Nobody is getting satisfaction out of this.
How many old burners does it take to change a light bulb? Just one to change the bulb..... and five more to reminisce how good the old bulb was....

flexibility is the key to success....... and poor planning is the key to flexibility

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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Bless » Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:18 pm

PG&E is scum of the earth.
FUCK YOU, I'M A WIZARD. FUCK YOU, I'M A SHARK.

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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by ygmir » Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:27 am

XPTom wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:42 pm
Looks like pennies on the dollar compared to actual damages, but PG&E doesn't have the pennies. They have filed for bankruptcy. They have missed payments on debt, and stock is trading at 1/4 its pre-fire value. Nobody is getting satisfaction out of this.
I think this is a good point. PGE has finite wealth and potential, so there is going to be a limit.
I'd submit, the lesson has been learned, from a terrible tragedy, which was a combination of gross neglect, and the dry windy conditions, a "perfect storm" as it were.
I fear the thought of driving PGE out of business and a "state" take over. NOTHING government does is anywhere near as efficient as any other system, and always leads to graft and corruption, when it looks like money is floating around. Government has to reason to be efficient, if they need more money, they know they can just raise taxes or fees, and carry on.
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by some seeing eye » Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:53 am

ygmir wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:27 am
I fear the thought of driving PGE out of business and a "state" take over. NOTHING government does is anywhere near as efficient as any other system, and always leads to graft and corruption, when it looks like money is floating around.
Actually the United States has about 3000 customer-serving electric utilities. Only about 168 are private companies. The rest are non-profits - municipal: like Austin & Seattle, public utility districts: like SMUD, or customer-owned coops.

It is the private utilities' cost cutting which has gotten them into trouble. One was the case of an Eastern for profit utility which neglected its tree trimming, resulting in unnecessary outages with Hurricane Sandy. The same pattern has repeated itself with fires for for profit utilities PG&E, SCE & SDGE in California.

PG&E has failed to put in the readily available protection sensors that can cut off power within milliseconds of a tree or ground fault, and give a very good measurement of where along the line the fault is.

The worst mistake of a non-profit utility has been investments in nuclear. One of the greatest failures in the utility industry was the California Energy Crisis/Enron which was a case of private for profit marketers and generator manipulation.

There is a flow of competent staff within the utility industry between for profit and non-profit. The non-profits have independent governing boards that are not "the government." Further, the electric utility model is simple in comparison to other businesses or public agencies.

I think it is a great failure that PG&E wasn't broken into about a handful of non-profit pieces. The PG&E assets in pieces would each be individually very viable, the rates would be lower, and the management less bloated.
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Bless » Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:39 am

ygmir wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:27 am
NOTHING government does is anywhere near as efficient as any other system, and always leads to graft and corruption, when it looks like money is floating around. Government has to reason to be efficient, if they need more money, they know they can just raise taxes or fees, and carry on.
This is actually completely false. I'll give you two easy examples:

The U.S. military. Do you really think a private mercenary army would be more efficient than the U.S. military? Why haven't we moved to that model? Which other countries use private militias instead of a government army?
  • Libya?
  • Somalia?
  • Afghanistan?
Would you like to live in one of those countries? Do you think these governments are more efficient at providing security?

Another easy example is Medicare.
  • According to CMS, for common benefits, Medicare spending rose by an average of 4.3 percent each year between 1997 and 2009, while private insurance premiums grew at a rate of 6.5 percent per year.
  • According to a calculation by the National Academy for Social Insurance, if spending on Medicare rose at the same rate as private insurance premiums during that period, Medicare would have cost an additional $114 billion.
  • According to the Kaiser Family Foundation, administrative costs in Medicare are only about 2 percent of operating expenditures. Defenders of the insurance industry estimate administrative costs as 17 percent of revenue.
FUCK YOU, I'M A WIZARD. FUCK YOU, I'M A SHARK.

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