California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Jackass » Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:23 am

In the "camp" fire that burns in Northern California, there's already been reports that they had some sort of power outage reported about 15 minutes before that fire started and took off... Caused by and coupled with high winds, the place turned into a blast furnace. I also seen reported that the number of missing people almost tripled from what they initially thought, so damn saddening... Lots of missing elderly
Sooner or later, it will get real strange...

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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by ygmir » Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:56 am

I remember way back, when our local power company, PG&E, was doing the job they thought necessary, people were screaming about them cutting too many trees. I forget if it was legislation, or some sort of edict, that reduced the cutting and clearing.
Add to that, the people who want the forest "left alone", to build a huge fuel load on the ground in the form of duff, etc.. Logging restrictions, etc, have also contributed to the fuels load.
The years of fighting fires, have also worked to allow fuels to increase.
Long ago, fires were a regular event in any given forest area, and they would just burn along the ground, rarely if ever "crowning", and they'd keep the brush and ground fuels in check. Healthy forest. We, decided this was not ok, and thus began the fighting of fires, which increased the fuels load.
I don't think it's as simple as "the utility company missed a limb/tree"......if the fuel loads were not so high, it'd not do much.....if the forests were selectively logged, with the resulting clean up, and more space between trees... if people kept their properties fire safe (ish at least).... on and on.
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Dr. Pyro » Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:57 am

Yggy, that's nonsense. How do I know? Because Jerry Brown said it's Trump's fault.

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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Ratty » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:19 am

Those aren't buttermilk biscuits I'm lying on Savannah

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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Token » Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:33 pm

For those not from NorCAL, yes PG&E, our for profit corporation that is the main power and gas utility ...

... they have been found culpable in most of the NorCAL fires.

The liability is so bad that the state had to intervene and approve legislation to protect PG&E from insolvency.

They lost lawsuit after lawsuit. These are for fires going back 5 years, every year, etc.

Their answer: It was wind so we will install weather stations and shut off power to customers whenever there is wind.

Yeah, Fuck monopolies!

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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Token » Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:41 pm

The Bark Beetle is a symptom, not the cause.

The years of drought due to changing climate is the root cause.

Them beetles are part of the ecosystem.

When our big drought ended a couple years back, all vermin exploded in population - cuz the predator population died off in the drought.

Now we have predators exploding in population.

Fun times in CA.

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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by some seeing eye » Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:53 pm

I don't live in CA. But my opinion is that PG&E will go bankrupt but come back the same, the families and homeowners will be poorly compensated, the electricity bills will increase (creating a heavier burden for fixed and low income customers), and the tree trimming will be further delayed creating more severe problems.

For you who live in CA you should ask why your consumer retail power bills are some of the highest in the 48 states while your wholesale power rates are average.

California legislature energy policy has some high points. But it also has fluff and ridiculousness. It is time to get back to basics as well as legislating where in the forest areas fire services are available to residences, and where it just burns with no services. Of course that would challenge the great CA real estate machine.
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by ygmir » Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:44 pm

some seeing eye wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:53 pm
I don't live in CA. But my opinion is that PG&E will go bankrupt but come back the same, the families and homeowners will be poorly compensated, the electricity bills will increase (creating a heavier burden for fixed and low income customers), and the tree trimming will be further delayed creating more severe problems.

For you who live in CA you should ask why your consumer retail power bills are some of the highest in the 48 states while your wholesale power rates are average.

California legislature energy policy has some high points. But it also has fluff and ridiculousness. It is time to get back to basics as well as legislating where in the forest areas fire services are available to residences, and where it just burns with no services. Of course that would challenge the great CA real estate machine.
because, we live in "The Peoples Republic of Californis": Land of taxes, fees, and over regulation. it's that simple.
Understanding the PGE "monopoly" (in their region) was necessary to create the infrastructure. dozens of small companies, back in "the day" could not pull off what PGE did.
and again, I'll say it's not so simple. Many factors create the fire conditions we now have. The huge fire near Redding earlier in the year, was caused, IIRC, by a car either with a flat tire or tow chain dragging....more to the point, the fuels management is the problem, combined with drought. IMHO.
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Token » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:07 pm

To be fair to PG&E, up here in “The State of Jefferson” country ...

Darwinism is alive, well and welcome by the masses.

So many private acres where local residents shoot first and ask later.

So the contractors hired by PG&E ... that hired subcontractors from who knows where ... they have a hard time trimming the verge.

Now that doesn’t excuse poor line and equipment maintenance which is also very high risk.

Heck, the 2015 fire I had to flee was started at the PG&E power plant.

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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by ygmir » Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:18 pm

Token wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:07 pm
To be fair to PG&E, up here in “The State of Jefferson” country ...

Darwinism is alive, well and welcome by the masses.

So many private acres where local residents shoot first and ask later.

So the contractors hired by PG&E ... that hired subcontractors from who knows where ... they have a hard time trimming the verge.

Now that doesn’t excuse poor line and equipment maintenance which is also very high risk.

Heck, the 2015 fire I had to flee was started at the PG&E power plant.

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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Canoe » Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:18 pm

Token wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:41 pm
... Them beetles are part of the ecosystem.
When our big drought ended a couple years back, all vermin exploded in population - cuz the predator population died off in the drought.
Now we have predators exploding in population.
What about Bigfoot: any changes in sighting rates or locations (mountains, canyons, streams or raiding farmer's fields), since the start of the droughts?
Token wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:07 pm
... So many private acres where local residents shoot first and ask later. ...
Sure different from "freedom to roam".
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Canoe » Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:26 pm

In photos & videos around Paradise, I'm seeing a number of examples of holes in the ground from roots that burnt away. This is a screenshot of the most dramatic, with a power line on top of a tree stump, approximately eight feet from the corner of a house (burnt down).
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Paradise power line hole.jpg
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Among the surviving houses, I'm seeing a lot with tree debris sitting untouched on a shingle roof, even overflowing the gutters, even when on the side of the house there's heat damage (typically melted plastic, like window frames) and even scorching down low at or near the ground... :? Seen in both clusters of surviving houses, or with the surrounding houses burnt to the ground.
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by ygmir » Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:49 am

Canoe wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:26 pm
In photos & videos around Paradise, I'm seeing a number of examples of holes in the ground from roots that burnt away. This is a screenshot of the most dramatic, with a power line on top of a tree stump, approximately eight feet from the corner of a house (burnt down).
.
Paradise power line hole.jpg

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Among the surviving houses, I'm seeing a lot with tree debris sitting untouched on a shingle roof, even overflowing the gutters, even when on the side of the house there's heat damage (typically melted plastic, like window frames) and even scorching down low at or near the ground... :? Seen in both clusters of surviving houses, or with the surrounding houses burnt to the ground.
it seems from your posts you are heading to some theories or conclusions?
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Token » Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:52 am

Roofline sprinklers are not uncommon out in the less urban settings.

Same with lightning rods.

Hard to asses things unless you are there to take in the whole scene instead of a few isolated photos someone decided are notable.

Btw, trees can smolder on the inside for years after the fire is out. Lots of friends are loggers and they have some good stories about hot lumber.

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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Lonesomebri » Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:56 am

Just here to read the latest rent a copout excuse covering the traitor.

...One group of silent protesters held two banners that mentioned “climate change” and the “apocalypse.” One resident held a “Welcome President Trump” sign while another held one that read: “Moron, we're in a drought.”

I wonder how the So Cal folks feel about their "forests" not having a clean floor....
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Canoe » Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:27 am

Photos I examined are not a few isolated photos someone decided are notable, but are from the damage assessment map's range of assessment photo(s). I'm intentionally looking mainly at homes that had less damage than "destroyed" - they took damage but survived (to one degree or another) - as I'm looking for indications of what construction materials/detail or property features that may have contributed to them surviving despite having been exposed and sustained some heat/fire damage. So far, the 'no visible damage' homes do not have an assessment photo, but are sometimes seen in assessment photos.

Where available, or not blocked by vegetation, I've looked at google street view to see a representation, if dated, of the homes & property. This will be invalid for some properties as they will have changed before the fire occurred, but taken across the limited number of homes that survived, this is still of value for my purposes.

The 'no visible damage' homes are sometimes seen in published videos taken from someone driving down the streets; although where they choose to stop and look closer is biased as it is exactly what they thought was notable. And there's indications from glimpses at the start/stop flow of the footage, that they've edited out clusters of survived homes - they want to show the damage.
ygmir wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:49 am
it seems from your posts you are heading to some theories or conclusions?
I don't have the expertise to have conclusions, nor enough background knowledge to feel any confidence on theories. But there are a number of observations that stick out given what I've previously studied on fire-proofing, that make me go hmmm.

For example, flying embers are cited as a major way fire transfers. Landing on a roof, into the attic through roof vents or soffets, into the house interior through glass (doors/windows) that cracked/broke in the heat, windows left open (or shed doors), laundry/bathroom/kitchen vents, or any other openings, thereby igniting the structure. There are many online sites covering fire-proofing measures, including recommendations on various screens to protect the various openings, and getting fire-resistant glass, etc.. And on preventative action regarding embers, it is supposed to be very important to keep your roof & gutters clear of tree debris, as shingles can ignite and from gutters also the edge of the sheathing can ignite. Same for reducing/removing vegetation growing up against your house. Yet as noted above, there are many surviving homes with such debris untouched, and with trees and/or bushes against the house - even when the home received some minor scorching or other heat damage, so we know the home was exposed to heat/fire. And this with surrounding homes burnt down to rubble.

One thing I'm seeing often for surviving homes, including those with roof/gutter debris and/or vegetation next to the house, is an intervening open space (~15' or more) between the house and the rest of the property. Seen on google streetview from pre-fire images, these intervening spaces are largely free of vegetation, but may include trees with trunks bare of branches to 20' or higher. This is not a comprehensive observation; it just seems to keep turning up.

So was there no or reduced ember risk, even with the high winds??? Did that wind causing higher heat mean the embers were consumed before reaching the next home? Or lighter embers were consumed and heavier ones fell? Then did some blow up against some homes? (a lot of minor damage at the ground-to-wall for "stucco" sided structures, even some wood-sided ones that survived). Did that mean the high-winds blowing embers gathered against the side of wood-sided structures and doomed them? (for structures with walls that had a low masonry wall at the ground level, there are examples that survived and examples that were destroyed, so you'd have to know all factors to determine if a low masonry wall was an advantage - if so, would retrofitting decorative rows of bricks for the first two feet be worthwhile for fire-safing?). Was the oxygen consumed/reduced by the surrounding fires so ignition was impeded? Instead of flying embers, was a major means of fire transfer due to radiant heat causing flash ignitions? Was radiant ignitions more of a factor with the high winds blowing flames horizontally, both hotter and closer to the next home? Was it all of the above, and more, in play at different locations around Paradise at different times?

So tons of questions arising from observations, but no way for me to have any answers. And way more questions from many other observations.

Like the areas were the tree trunks are scorched (some even seriously burnt into for some depth) from the ground level up to 12' to 15', yet fine above that. Others where the trunks are fine until 12' to 15' above the ground, then they're burnt going upwards until to near the start of the branches, but are fine above that (in some cases, these are 15' to 25' downwind of a house that burnt down, so it looks like this 'middle' damage was caused at the height of that infernal by flames/heat blowing sideways at the tree?). For both types, the trees still have their needles & leaves.

From a view of making one's building & property fire-safe, I'm very interested to see what the fire investigators and fire researchers determine regarding confirming existing recommendations and perhaps some new recommendations.
Last edited by Canoe on Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Canoe » Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:39 am

If any one knows,
I've very interested in knowing the construction details of the homes I'm seeing with what appears to be a stucco or trowelled concete finish. This is turning up fairly often among homes with very minor damage, including scorching damage to small parts of this finish. (I'm also seeing a few examples where this same finish is seen standing as a wall or two walls at a corner, thin, with most or all of the supporting wall structure behind it burnt and collapsed away.)
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by some seeing eye » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:41 am

To Mr Canoe's posts, thermal radiation follows the inverse square law for distance and radiation is going to ignite building materials at different temperatures.
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Canoe » Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:37 pm

some seeing eye wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:41 am
To Mr Canoe's posts, thermal radiation follows the inverse square law for distance and radiation is going to ignite building materials at different temperatures.
To explain that further: if the flames move half the distance towards a structure, the radiated heat energy from that flame is quadrupled. Plus it's getting hotter air from that flame.

Which is why I went "oh. fuck.", when I saw early footage showing the wind blowing the flames sideways 10' to 15', with a few gusts near 20'. All closer towards whatever is downwind: home, brush, vehicle(s), trailer(s)... and once ignited, in turn towards whatever is next in line downwind; ~= dominoes.

If the flames are going sideways 10', 15' and 20', what's the gap to the next inflammable object/material...

How long before a material's surface temperature reaches its flash temperature when the wind is raising combustion temperatures, the structure is surrounded by and being baked by hot air, and that wind is applying fresh hot air to the upwind surface (maintains maximum applied temperature for maximum possible heat transfer rate), with the wind blowing both the flames closer to the next thing downwind, and the flames' hotter air delivered to the structure's surface, vs. the material absorbing and conducting that heat away on the non-heated side into the structure and its air volume - which in turn is being baked by the surrounding hot air and inflamed structures or vegetation.

The inverse-square law combined with somehow something reducing the quantity or effect of flying embers is the only way I can wrap my head around there being any surviving structures.

A friend and I were planning to re-insulate a poorly sealed & insulated overhang of his house. From what we've paid more attention to with the events in Paradise, the bottom across the underside of the floor-joists is no longer going to be covered by rigid sheet foam, but a burn-through proof (2000 F) and insulating rigid sheet that will both protect the structure from igniting and insulate the insulating foam between the overhanging floor joists to prevent that foam from melting into an accelerant. A few bushes that were partially under that overhang were going to be spared. Now they're getting trimmed or more likely moved a little further out.

While most homes in and around Paradise are way more than 20' apart, sat images show some where structures are that close together, be it the home itself, a garage, carport, etc. - something attached to or up against the house. And both assessment photos and streetview shows that, plus a fair number with brush and/or one or more vehicles/trailers between the house and its property line. And spacing is even closer than 20' for some of the structures in the mobile home parks (as little as five feet). I did find an assessment photo of one mobile home in the middle of over 70 others that were destroyed. The only visible damage was a melted skirt, plus its garden shed. It was newer (built to newer code?), and fairly new to the lot (empty lot on sat view), with little vegetation.

I don't want to post destroyed homes (no need for a resident to be ambushed with seeing their home), but here is a carefully cropped view across a Paradise mobile home park, cropped from the side of an assessment photo. Circled is the end of the mobile home that survived in the middle (its damaged garden shed in front of it in this view); inset is part of the visible damage from its assessment photo. PM me if you want to know the streets so you can go to the damage assessment map and get the original assessment photos to review yourself.

Understand that from where this image was taken until the trees in the background, the image is showing three streets of . seven . rows . of homes flattened to rubble.

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Paradise mobile homes - a survivor in the middle.jpg
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p.s.
Another observation: houses burnt to the ground with dry un-burnt evergreen needles all over the ground. wtf? No flaming material ignited. No embers ignited. Didn't flash.
(in other areas: house burnt down, clear of needles (burnt? blown away?), and the tree trunks close to the ground are scorched)
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Last edited by Canoe on Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Jackass » Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:00 pm

From a view of making one's building & property fire-safe, I'm very interested to see what the fire investigators and fire researchers determine regarding confirming existing recommendations and perhaps some new recommendations.
It's actually quite simple. Make houses, buildings and fences out of concrete, cinder blocks, brick and metal for support. All exterior doors and window frames are made from metal.
Several years ago while touring a very rural area of Mexico, I was astonished to see a huge swath of countryside ablaze with absolutely no one around that I could see.
In the middle was a small farm house with flames burning right up to it's walls, but the house was fine. If no one can fight the fire, you have to engineer as such. The fuel was short and the trees were sparse, which may have been due to the fact that fire suppression was non existent and left to burn fires happened regularly...
Sooner or later, it will get real strange...

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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Canoe » Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:29 pm

Jackass wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:00 pm
From a view of making one's building & property fire-safe, I'm very interested to see what the fire investigators and fire researchers determine regarding confirming existing recommendations and perhaps some new recommendations.
It's actually quite simple. Make houses out of concrete, cinder blocks and metal for support. All exterior doors and window frames are made from metal. ...
(it's real fun - not - waiting inside a cinderblock hut with plate steel doors with fire outside as part of '70's era fire training... I assume they're not allowed to do that anymore)

While dry-stacked-surface-bonded is quick, easy and strong (and waterproof with modifiers), and you can pretty concrete/block construction up (look at all the European concrete homes), and it can be done very well insulated with low/no thermal bridges for building-life low energy consumption, all that concrete doesn't fly from a Green Building point of view, even with aerated concrete blocks and encapsulating fly ash. (Although some like the Russian hail comrade utilitarian home look.)

So two areas: new construction, and retro-fitted fire-safety measures. A lot of the new code for fire-proofing construction details are ridiculously cost prohibitive to apply to an existing structure, or owners resist as they can't be hidden when retro-fitted so are unsightly. And this is my favourite bush. And this one too. Also these over here. And I don't get around as well anymore, so well, that debris on the roof and in the gutters... And I'll add vents with screens and have flashing put on the roof sheathing edges when the roof is done next. Maybe go metal next time. New windows: how much more for fire-resistant glass? Where would I get the $ to do it, let alone do it all right now.

So, what can be done cost effectively. What works in most cases. In the expected cases. Can we cover all cases; like all the WTFs in Paradise.
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by ygmir » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:31 pm

I agree, it will be fascinating to see how and why some places survived.
I have a friend who owns a fire investigation company and is there now. Maybe, when he gets done, I can get some good info to share.
I think a valid notion, is, we can't anticipate and defend against any and all circumstances. Insurance policies are partly for that.......and sometimes, we are just not lucky. Shit happens.
I hope there is no "knee jerk" reaction, and some crazy set of laws and codes, which further deter and prevent people of modest means from building and owning. I see a lot of it, on the homeowner, to decide the level of risk, and prevention, they can or will assume.
I appreciate, Canoe, how you are delving into this, interesting reading and thoughts. It's nice to have varied opinions and such on a thing such as this.
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by gaminwench » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:02 pm

We've got folks here trying to get county building codes modified so that people can build straw bale or ceramic homes, which are both earthquake and fire resistant.

Up at the Ojai Foundation, the only building that survived Thomas fire was a cob/straw/earth construction; the flames went right up and over it and everything stored inside was fine.

Our local codes don't currently allow for these mediums to be used for domiciles; the developers have our local government in their pockets; after Thomas (and now with Woolsey), there is a strong push for change.

We'll see.
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Canoe » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:05 pm

ygmir,
It's certainly interesting making the observations and trying to puzzle things out. But even with having looked at the code/recommendations for fire-proofing earlier this year, and despite in the past having had access to the internal reports & experiment designs of a research organization that included building & burning structures to see what really happened, and getting occasional stories from local fire inspectors, I find that I'm really hugely lacking adequate knowledge of forest fires and house combustion. My prior focus has been on what design and construction details to include and how to do so (but not to the advanced criteria developed in/for California), and I've been out of that loop for nearly a decade.

gaminwench,
In some jurisdictions that allow an owner-builder to take responsibility for their own design, when using "alternate" construction materials & methods that aren't built the same and look different, approval on a home by home basis may be obtainable on the argument that: it doesn't meet code, it exceeds code. Having a small sample wall can be useful - or essential - to demonstrate a wall "system", to illustrate construction and to allow you to point out the features & functions. A clerk can see its photos (presented in person & with an application) and an inspector can examine it physically, and see how it meets the criteria of a wall's design objectives, and you've demonstrated that you have the knowledge/expertise to construct such a wall.
Getting a permit is one thing. Getting a mortgage approved for such is another...
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... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

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Ratty
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Ratty » Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:02 pm

There are some beautiful and expensive old adobe homes in Walnut Creek and at least one 'packed earth' home that I know of. I wonder if they are fireproof. There is also one in Martinez that was built of something that looked like styrofoam blocks while they were erecting it. Nobody was ever allowed to move in. 20 years later and it still looks unoccupied.
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Canoe » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:12 am

In the news...
https://earther.gizmodo.com/as-camp-fir ... 1830524170
(has links to various news reports)
A grand jury report and county fire plans said Paradise needed a way to get everyone out quickly at once. Instead, Paradise leaders divided the town into evacuation zones that could be emptied a few at a time.
At 6:15 a.m., a Pacific Gas & Electric Co. high-voltage line near the Poe Dam generating station six miles away malfunctioned. A report of fire came at 6:29.
7:40 a.m. (Concow): “We’ve got structures already burning down here.”
Staff at the hospital had begun moving out its 67 patients before the official evacuation warnings.
The result was that as the Camp fire entered Paradise, the evacuation order issued at 7:46 a.m. covered only the eastern quarter of town. Evacuation orders weren’t given to the rest of the city for nearly an hour.
Within two minutes of the broader warning, the first major traffic jam was reported. Then the evacuation corridors caught fire, as they had a decade before.
Others also said they didn’t get messages from the county’s Red Alert program Thursday. No news was delivered over the Amber Alert wireless emergency notification system, or through Nixle, they said. There was nothing on local radio. Television did not interrupt programming with an ‘emergency broadcast system’ warning. There were no sirens.
On Facebook, Cal Fire’s first post was at 10:07 a.m, and it was general, describing acreage and saying “Multiple evacuation orders have been issued.”
“We didn’t get a robo call, announcement or any notice from Cal Fire or city, We had to find out about it second-hand,” said Ethan Silverman.
“Neighbors – they came up and down the road telling us to leave,” said Gabriel Wilcox.
Video games are giving kids unrealistic expectations on how many swords they can carry.
.
... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by ygmir » Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:28 am

to Gaminwench's points:
I'm in favor of letting people build what and how they want.
Some time back in our county, there was a thing called "K" housing (maybe other places too?).
I allowed for owner/builders to make it as they would, and only required permits related to health and safety, for the general public.
It had to be clearly stated on the deed in perpetuity, some sort of language stating the house was built without direct involvement of the county or inspectors, and may not meet or match current building codes.
I very much agree that the overall health and safety of the community should be considered and enforced.
I also feel if people choose more dangerous methods, publicly funded help should be limited.

Canoe:
I see you're very interested if fire issues. Out of curiosity, are you building, or a builder?
I hope some lessons can be learned from this, I also hope there is not a "knee jerk" reaction that causes undue hardship on folks.
I'm sure there are going to be some "miracles" attributed to survival, with no good explanation. Also, people who did everything right, and still lost.....
YGMIR

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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Canoe » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:38 am

drift
ygmir wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:28 am
Canoe:
I see you're very interested if fire issues. Out of curiosity, are you building, or a builder?

I've been many things - I have huge curiosity. Way back, I was a manager at a builders (residential: single, multi, highrise) and was presented with all of the issues with construction and the various systems. Carrying on from that, I have the odd hobby of following Building Envelope Science. (insert sound of crickets here) But due to time restrictions, and many interests, that ends up being piecemeal, not comprehensive.
Also, if something (anything) fails, I want to know why, and how to avoid that failure, and addressing issues like Detection and Failure Modes. I love working with my hands, so I occasionally do various home repair work. Like electrical work for people who can't afford it (as opposed to those who don't want to pay for it). That's not allowed here: I insist that the owner get a DIY Permit, learn and do as much of the work as possible, even if I have to stand there with them or they have to practice stripping & connections before doing actual installation. I also openly attend the inspections, and answer and ask questions of the inspectors. Every variance I've asked for was granted and for the reasons I stated. They know what I do, but to them the issue is safety, so they ignore this as they know I'm not getting money and I insist upon permits, hence inspections, hence safety. Due to the natures of some failures with electrical, a number of these inspectors are also fire investigators. Hence that tie in. But fire is just one of many issues regarding buildings. So I also end up helping people find sources of info for repairs or upgrades, and in understanding the (often bullshit) answers they are given.
Video games are giving kids unrealistic expectations on how many swords they can carry.
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... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by some seeing eye » Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:12 am

To some ideas on this thread.

I'm a fan of alternative housing models. Where I live, Oregon, our housing costs 4x what would be normal because California refugees can pay cash. I'm safe because I bought at the right time.

We need more prefab and manufactured housing alternatives. Zoning works against it, but they can be beautiful and durable, which zoning wants. I met a family who did an architect-style modern remodel of a double wide in the woods - new metal sheathing, roof, windows and entry, it was stunning.

I helped a friend build a tiny home. We could have prefab or tiny homes designed for fire hazard areas.

And as a big DIYer, a strongly agree that construction and maintenance is doable by homeowners. My friend's tiny home had a framer with all the tools and a journey(wo)man electrician as the only professionals involved. The framer knew how many nails were needed under Cali code for sheathing which strikes me as code overreach. I do sub out some of my plumbing because I am not intimately familiar with plumbing code and don't have specialized big pipe tools. My plumber is very precise, doing beautiful work.

One of my projects was a solar greenhouse built with reused materials. It was a limited income project we self financed. We even reused concrete blocks and demolition gravel. The whole project all-in was $1/sf. I think the only new materials were mortar, nails, screws, caulk, the roofing shingles and hinges.

So the reuse movement saves a lot of energy and cost. There are many nonprofits that take in building material donations and then resell them. I buy all my old growth lumber from our rebuilding center, a model that has been copied in other cities. Friends run a wood upcycling business too.

Who wouldn't love to live in those 60s-70s hippie homebuilt houses photoed by Boericke? That's the DIY spirit!

The US could own the energy-efficient affordable, even fire-resistant prefab export market, or we could cede it to Ikea.
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Canoe » Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:58 pm

some seeing eye wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:12 am
To some ideas on this thread.
... We need more prefab and manufactured housing alternatives. Zoning works against it, but they can be beautiful and durable, which zoning wants. ...
"Prefab" isn't the old cheap minimal homes. It's available at many levels, even to Passivhaus standards for a healthy, comfortable & efficient home. More and more prefab manufacturers are doing it right. Most developer homes I see going up look like the bones are crap, let alone getting all the details like sealing correct. (people from Europe who come here are horrified to see a house get built here) Unless you're going to be hands on with a lot of DIY, or need/want to save the $ by rolling the dice on being your own managing contractor, there are fewer and fewer reasons to not go prefab. Some of the mobile home manufacturers are bridging the gap too. Online I've seen one development that's taking a mobile home park and turning it into a prefab home development. And there are tiny-house communities turning up here and there.

"Builders want to keep the profits and markups that might go to manufacturers and would rather hire their own carpenters, and are happy to build to the Building Code minimum standards."

Smart money is betting on offsite construction. Will it work this time?
https://www.treehugger.com/modular-desi ... -time.html

And there's bits like this.
https://www.treehugger.com/solar-techno ... ouses.html
https://www.treehugger.com/green-archit ... anges.html
Video games are giving kids unrealistic expectations on how many swords they can carry.
.
... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

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