California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

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Canoe
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Canoe » Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:30 pm

Butte County Sheriff publishes "Body-Worn Camera Video of BCSO Deputy Helping with Evacuations During The Camp Fire."

https://www.youtube.com/ watch?v=vWNV27PIlNc

http://www.buttecounty.net/ has "The National Weather Serivce has issued Flash Flood WARNING for the Camp Fire burn scares and impact areas until 9:15 PM, NOvember 29th", including "a high risk of debris flows and flash flooding due to heavy rain. A flash flood WARNING indicates that flash flooding is occuring, or is imminent."
They also list an Evacuation Order and an Evacuation Warning, due to flooding.
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by burner von braun » Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:59 pm

https:// abcnews.go.com/video/embed?id=59506481

I wasn't able to see your video link Canoe, but I'm guessing this is the video source you're referencing
______

EDIT: I went back and put a space in my link here, so it no longer automatically comes up, much as Canoe has been doing.
Last edited by burner von braun on Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Canoe » Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:36 pm

burner von braun wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:59 pm
I wasn't able to see your video link Canoe, but I'm guessing this is the video source you're referencing
lol - I can't see your link.

My link works, if you remove the space in the middle. I posted it with the space so it wouldn't embed so those coming here aren't subjected to it without their choosing to do so.
https://www.youtube.com/ watch?v=vWNV27PIlNc

It's on the channel for Butte Sheriff https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuOJ-WK27WfJqzXXycLk-AA
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by burner von braun » Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:13 pm

Yeah, now that you mention it Canoe, I recall you noting the blank space technique in one of your posts some time back. Seems like a thoughtful thing to do for those who have been deeply impacted by the tragedy.

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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by some seeing eye » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:30 pm

I cannot imagine what family of missing are going through. Sure you are in touch with the sheriff office.

Adding to Mr Canoe's excellent posts, they are using portable DNA testing of remains against voluntary samples collected from family members. Very rapid matching, hours, matching or not (hopefully) family to remains from pre-collected family samples. Contact the sheriff office if you have family involved.
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Canoe » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:57 pm

some seeing eye wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:30 pm
... DNA testing of remains against voluntary samples collected from family members. ... Contact the sheriff office if you have family involved.
It is highly unlikely that anyone who should be involved isn't already aware, but just in case someone stumbles in here, the current points of contact are provided on http://www.buttecounty.net/sheriffcoroner
Among other links and information, that currently includes:
  • The Unaccounted For Persons list (list of the missing)
  • Phone numbers for removing or adding people to that list (they don't want emails).
  • A link to a web site regarding Camp Fire DNA testing.
Phone numbers and links NOT provided here, as you should see the Sheriffcoroner's site for current valid information and instructions.
Also see https://buttecountyrecovers.org in case that site is updated before http://www.buttecounty.net/sheriffcoroner
...
Unaccounted For Persons List currently at 49 people.
Civilian Fatalities at 91. (not confirmed from official sources; source https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/8-n ... -wildfires)
...
(buttecounty.net and butcountyrecovers.org appear to continue to NOT have official releases on those sites, after the Update page was removed. If anyone knows of such a page/link, please provide such here.)
.................

On Monday, at least 300 new students from Paradise will be joining the Chico Unified School District...
Meanwhile, the district had orientations set up at various different schools on Friday to welcome the students from Paradise to their new classrooms, show them around and meet some of the staff and students.

https://krcrtv.com/news/camp-fire/chico ... m-paradise
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Canoe » Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:50 pm

Canoe wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:57 pm
...
Unaccounted For Persons List currently at 49 people.
Civilian Fatalities at 91. (not confirmed from official sources; source https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/8-n ... -wildfires)...
Butte County Sheriff Camp Fire Update December 1, 2018
  • Unaccounted For individuals 25
  • Accounted For individuals 3,141
  • Fatality count 88 (42 tentatively identified, 41 positively identified)

a few samples
#ButteCounty teachers, We have two locations available for you to shop for FREE school supplies! Hooker Oak Elementary in Chico or Bird Street in Oroville. #ButteCOE #ButteSchoolsStrong
Residents and Business Owners Are Advised to Prepare for Re-Entry! The Butte County Sheriff’s Office and the Paradise Police Department is establishing an orderly reentry process controlled by entry points to ensure that only residents and property owners are allowed access.
#ButteCounty #CA Survivors: If your insurance coverage doesn't provide temporary housing help, you may be eligible for immediate and/or long-term housing help from us. Once you register, our housing counselors will reach out to you to identify the best solution for you.
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Canoe » Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:42 pm

PGE filing for bankruptcy, CEO stepped down, credit rating downgraded to junk status, stock crashed. Judge planning to order them to inspect grid and clean up trees around its lines. They've sparked at least 1500 fires. 2017 & 2018 gave them $30 billion in potential liability. Could face murder charges.

https://www.pge.com/en/about/newsroom/n ... chapter_11
SAN FRANCISCO, Calif. — PG&E Corporation (NYSE: PCG) ("PG&E" or "the Company") said today it remains committed to providing safe natural gas and electric service to customers as it prepares to initiate voluntary reorganization proceedings under Chapter 11. The Company today provided the 15-day advance notice required by recently enacted California law that it and its wholly owned subsidiary Pacific Gas and Electric Company (the "Utility") currently intend to file petitions to reorganize under Chapter 11 of the U.S. Bankruptcy Code on or about January 29, 2019.
Summary, varous links at
https://earther.gizmodo.com/california- ... 1831733903
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Canoe » Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:29 pm

PGE filed.
On Tuesday morning, California utility Pacific Gas and Electric (PG&E) filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy (PDF), citing billions of dollars in potential damages and fines stemming from liability in several 2017 and 2018 wildfires.

The utility noted in its Tuesday filing that it has secured $5.5 billion in debtor-in-possession financing to continue operating while it restructures.
...

As the utility attempts to restructure, it looks poised to try to get out of or change several renewable-energy power purchase agreements (PPAs), according to the company's filing on Tuesday.

PG&E argued that it has signed hundreds of contracts for renewable energy and storage (equivalent to 7.78 gigawatts of renewable contracts and 540 megawatts of storage) at high, early adopter prices. Now it wants to break those contracts and replace them with the cheaper solar, wind, and storage prices that currently prevail in the market.
...
https://arstechnica.com/information-tec ... ankruptcy/
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Canoe » Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:28 pm

https://www.npr.org/2019/02/28/69902614 ... -continues
Pacific Gas and Electric says it's "probable" that its equipment caused the Camp Fire in Northern California, the deadliest and most destructive in the state's history.

California has not finished its investigation into PG&E's culpability in last November's fire that killed at least 85 people, destroyed about 14,000 structures, displacing tens of thousands of people and destroying the town of Paradise. However, the state's largest utility, which filed for bankruptcy last month, said Thursday it expects the investigation will find that its damaged infrastructure sparked the fire.

The company faces billions of dollars in possible liabilities and nearly two dozen lawsuits from victims of the Camp Fire, including allegations of poor equipment maintenance. One lawsuit claims that the utility prioritized advertising spending over fire and public safety.

...
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Token » Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:17 am

WSJ states:

“Until 2015, the company said in a state regulatory document, [PG&E] used 'paper wall maps and push pins' in control centers to track electricity-distribution system operations." That's despite the fact that the utility manages a 70,000-square-mile area and provides power to 16 million people.

Between 2014 and 2016, PG&E received approval from regulators to spend $97 million on overhauling its record-keeping system. "By the period’s end," the WSJ wrote, "the company in filings estimated it had spent only 15 percent of that on the effort because of technological challenges and used the rest for other projects."
I do have to note that map-pushpin-string works just fine in a power outage.

The question is if the staff knows how to use an abacus or slide rule for computation.

BTW, the kind of failure that triggered the Paradise disaster - arc-fault detectors installed on that 110KV line would have prevented the fire, killed the line milliseconds after it broke.

PG&E is just too concerned with profits to give a fuck.

Someone needs to go to prison for this.

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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Canoe » Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:37 am

Token wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:17 am
...
BTW, the kind of failure that triggered the Paradise disaster - arc-fault detectors installed on that 110KV line would have prevented the fire, killed the line milliseconds after it broke. ...
I didn't know they had them at that scale.
How far from the fault would/could that be installed? As in, what about propagation to the detector and time until the flow at the fault ends?
Token wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:17 am
...
Someone needs to go to prison for this.
There has been an official or two talk about manslaughter or murder charges.
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by some seeing eye » Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:51 am

Token wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:17 am
WSJ states:

“Until 2015, the company said in a state regulatory document, [PG&E] used 'paper wall maps and push pins' in control centers to track electricity-distribution system operations."
This in itself is not a bad system, as long as it is not used by itself. It is called a "map board." Most utilities now use a video wall.
Between 2014 and 2016, PG&E received approval from regulators to spend $97 million on overhauling its record-keeping system. "By the period’s end," the WSJ wrote, "the company in filings estimated it had spent only 15 percent of that on the effort because of technological challenges and used the rest for other projects."
Basic project management fail. Other utilities have upgraded their systems successfully, and generally utilities share advice freely, because they don't compete with each other. The ratio of utility IT spending to sales is much lower than other tech industries, so there is plenty of opportunity to nudge it up.
BTW, the kind of failure that triggered the Paradise disaster - arc-fault detectors installed on that 110KV line would have prevented the fire, killed the line milliseconds after it broke.
Yes. The current generation of equipment is capable of being programmed to do exactly that.
Someone needs to go to prison for this.
This is basic tree trimming. I'm familiar with one large backbone utility where they had 2 tree trimming faults, but no fire or loss of life, within a short period. I heard the executive vice president of transmission was "sentenced" by management to go out in a helicopter every week day for something like 6 months to personally inspect their thousands of miles of transmission lines over several states.

In this case, the PG&E should be broken up and turned into a public utilities. Some of the new public utilities could merge certain technical operations with SMUD in Sacramento.

But I would agree, jail time. It's too bad the justice system is so slow. The execs should have been out in Paradise with shovels every day of the last month.
Canoe wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:37 am

I didn't know they had them at that scale.
How far from the fault would/could that be installed? As in, what about propagation to the detector and time until the flow at the fault ends?
Generally the equipment is in the substations at both ends of a line segment, then connected by an optical fiber. I believe the all-in operation time is about 1/20th of a second. I also believe that the newer generation equipment can generally localize the distance to the fault.
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Token » Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:36 pm

SSE gets the Yoda star for high voltage geekery. ;)

Arc detectors can be electrical, mechanical or optical.

Considering the 110KV line is 80+ years old, an electrical detector would be most practical.

In a line breakage at 110KV, as the cable is seperating it will arc and produce a unique high-frequency burst in both directions of the cable. This is a detectable event that propagates at ~ 2/3 the speed of light. Fun fact - Tesla Coils use this principle to create the high frequency zip-zap.

Then it’s up to the power station equipment to interrupt the line at both ends and ground them.

Overall it is a sub-second event, more than enough time for the cables to harmlessly swing down to the ground.

And now this:

SF Chronicle circa February 27, 2018

(She resigned promptly after the Paradise fire and carnage)

PG&E Corp. CEO Geisha Williams could receive an annual bonus for 2018 worth up to $4.23 million in addition to her $1.085 million salary, the company’s board recently decided.

Williams could also receive over the next three years long-term incentives worth up to $8 million, depending on how the company and its subsidiary, Pacific Gas and Electric Co., perform.
Free Market Economy Epic Fail.

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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by some seeing eye » Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:49 pm

Geek, guilty as charged!

Look up Schweitzer Engineering in Washington. They make the best black boxes which are high tech circuit breakers to cut a line. They use current sensors at each end to detect "high impedance faults" line to tree. It is the most obscure speciality of grid "protection" engineering.

IMO it is a criminal offense to not have that equipment on big transmission lines through forests.
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by ygmir » Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:33 am

I think it would be a struggle, and a stretch, to put anyone in jail over this.
It's the result of a multi year "drop of the ball" as relates to maintaining lines and equipment. Many "small things" that people in the field probably overlooked or "put off till next year", and just wrote a report, that most likely got pigeon holed.
I have direct info, that is not public knowledge, related to the exact failure, and it comes down to just this.
It was also related to a cascading set of smaller failures and conditions on that day.
Add to that poor forest management, by state, feds, and private property/home owners, and, it was a disaster.
I'd like to see more focus on the physical failures, and even trying to mitigate the "bad luck" that were the conditions of the day, than wasting time pointing fingers at individuals, who may not even have been there over the period of neglect and degradation, as it was occurring, in total. Yeah, reprimands, firings, stuff like that. But, I don't think criminal actions would work, or even be appropriate, due to so many possible failures of information flow and individuals.
And, I hope this is a wake up, for those of us in the rural forested areas, to take care of our own spaces.
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Token » Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:49 am

I dunno Ygz, there is some NIMBY crap about tree trimming on the low voltage power-pole lines for sure, but there is also dealing with the contractor that subcontracted the work so it’s three layers from calling PG&E to middle-man to the final contractor who does the work and every step of the way it gets a little bit of “fuck if I care” spice sprinkled in.

So they show up with a bunch of guys from the prison work-release program, chop the tree, then leave it there for the community to deal with with a hearty fuck-all attitude.

But that isn’t the point at all. The 110KV line is a whole different beast. Same as the San Bruno gas pipe explosion. People died because PG&E spent their money and energy on shareholder profits at the expense of regular maintenance.

The San Bruno incident resulted in a criminal conviction already. Now it needs to go up a notch. They already used their get out of jail free card in San Bruno.

Either jail time or make them a public benefit corporation and run them as a non-profit utility.

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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by ygmir » Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:05 am

Token wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:49 am
I dunno Ygz, there is some NIMBY crap about tree trimming on the low voltage power-pole lines for sure, but there is also dealing with the contractor that subcontracted the work so it’s three layers from calling PG&E to middle-man to the final contractor who does the work and every step of the way it gets a little bit of “fuck if I care” spice sprinkled in.

So they show up with a bunch of guys from the prison work-release program, chop the tree, then leave it there for the community to deal with with a hearty fuck-all attitude.

But that isn’t the point at all. The 110KV line is a whole different beast. Same as the San Bruno gas pipe explosion. People died because PG&E spent their money and energy on shareholder profits at the expense of regular maintenance.

The San Bruno incident resulted in a criminal conviction already. Now it needs to go up a notch. They already used their get out of jail free card in San Bruno.

Either jail time or make them a public benefit corporation and run them as a non-profit utility.
totally agree on the NIMBY and tree trimming. people don't realize. And, in their defense, at least around here, they take the tree, chip the limbs and such, and either spread them or haul them off (I've been getting loads of wood chips from them lately for ground cover), and either chunk up the trunk and haul it off, or, if the land owner wants, leave it. Here, anyway, they do a super job of removal and clean up.
here, I've not see "prison workers", it's all private contractors, and very professional. I'm sure it depends on the area, too. If no one is living nearby, it may not be a big deal to leave the trees on the ground to rot...

I'm not saying if PGE were a person, there should not be legal penalties. I'm saying, putting a middle manager in jail, probably would not happen, and, it would really do no good, IMHO. You know upper management will be so well represented and legally shielded, it'd never happen. So, sure, just move forward and do better. And, a public utility? well maybe? Though it's close to that now, IMHO. As long as it's not "government run", I'm ok with trying something different (note my cynical outlook at anything run by the government).
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Token » Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:58 am

In California, a Public Benefit Corp is not government owned/run.

VTA in Santa Clara and LA Metro Transit are PBCs.

Still very corporate but without the burden of profits for the shareholders.

Basically all profit must be reinvested into the services.

Remove that $12 million bonus package from the CEO ... you get the point.

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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Canoe » Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:52 am

Token wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:36 pm
...
(She resigned promptly after the Paradise fire and carnage)
PG&E Corp. CEO Geisha Williams could receive an annual bonus for 2018 worth up to $4.23 million in addition to her $1.085 million salary, the company’s board recently decided.
Williams could also receive over the next three years long-term incentives worth up to $8 million, depending on how the company and its subsidiary, Pacific Gas and Electric Co., perform.
Free Market Economy Epic Fail.
I guess there's no point in sticking around if there's not going to be those bonuses.

As to criminal charges, I believe the talk there was expecting jail consequences due to events in recent years providing the company with multiple ample clear & definitive indications of foreseeable consequences, and of the severity of such consequences, combined with what appears to have been blatant disregard.

Any one have any idea what such fault protection would cost?
And the scale required?
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by ygmir » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:32 am

Canoe wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:52 am


As to criminal charges, I believe the talk there was expecting jail consequences due to events in recent years providing the company with multiple ample clear & definitive indications of foreseeable consequences, and of the severity of such consequences, combined with what appears to have been blatant disregard.

not saying it's ok, but, I don't see how criminal charges could be brought against an individual over this.
Understanding the miles of lines, and related you your above statement.
I know they ramped up clearing and such over the last few years, but, realistically, it still takes a long long time, to clear them all.
I don't excuse not doing it, and do also relate the pressures they were under for years, not to "clear so much" because of public outcry against cutting trees.
But, to charge whomever is in charge of whatever dept. for not fixing something immediately, when it has progressed over many years, seems tough to pin...
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Token » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:19 am

I would start with the recently departed CEO then go down the rest of the C-suite executives. Then there’s the BoD ...

The whole thing of the fish stinking from the head down and all ...

Intent is not required for criminal convictions. Depraved indifference, negligence are just as convict-able.

This was not some tree branch that sparked the fire; it was predictable failure on an 80-year old cable on which maintenance was punted for 5 years. That was a decision, not an act of god.

And she got her 4 million bonus as a result.

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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by some seeing eye » Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:36 am

Canoe wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:52 am
Any one have any idea what such fault protection would cost?
And the scale required?
The major cost is probably getting fiber between all the transmission substations. Usually you replace the top ground conductor on the towers which provide a measure of lightning protection with a hollow one filled with fiber. Then you need substation automation equipment, power and batteries, current sensors, throw in voltage sensors, and the protection brain boxes. Toy could also add endpoint generation control, security, transformer health, weather monitoring, and then you can branch off to provide local broadband and wireless to people nearby.

Most utilities have been phasing in those costs for many years, but some have been following the low cost road, if it isn't broken, wait (looking at you BHE.)

It's sort of like remodeling an old house, how deep do you go?

Practically, ask the CPUC to have PG&E put out a detailed public analysis, it will be needed for the bankruptcy court and long term rate planning anyway. They also need a detailed tree trimming catch up estimate.
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Canoe » Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:02 pm

ygmir wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:32 am
...
But, to charge whomever is in charge of whatever dept. for not fixing something immediately, when it has progressed over many years, seems tough to pin...
Yes. That's why the view on obtaining criminal convictions was based on the companies obvious knowledge of the events of the past few years, the foreseeable consequences, and what was/wasn't done.


That said, there's a new study in the news.
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-47444463
Wet winters are no longer a guide to the severity of wildfires in California, a new study suggests. Increased temperatures due to global warming and more effective efforts to contain fires means there's now more dry wood to burn. This means that large wildfires of the kind seen in 2018 can now happen in any year, regardless of how wet the previous winter was.
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Canoe » Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:20 am

https://earther.gizmodo.com/californias ... 1833180368
...
After a seven-year drought from 2010 to 2017, much of California remains a tinderbox with estimates that there are over 147 million dead trees throughout the state. The end of the drought poses its own problems, as fast-growing grasses and other small plants can dry out and catch flame themselves, carrying blazes right to other sources of fuel. California’s rapidly growing population (which has almost doubled since the 1970s) has also brought many more communities into areas at high risk of fires.
...
https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la- ... story.html
According to the National Interagency Coordination Center’s year-end statistical roundup, more than 1.8 million acres of California was burned by wildland fires in 2018, surpassing the previous year’s total of 1.3 million, officials said.

“That’s the highest in the recorded history of California,” said Scott McLean, spokesman for the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection.

More than 100 people were killed and 17,000 homes and 700 businesses were destroyed in a state where fires are considered one of the annual seasons. Crews responded to more than 8,000 fires last year.
...
https://www.predictiveservices.nifc.gov ... &Summ.html
Video games are giving kids unrealistic expectations on how many swords they can carry.
.
... but don't harm the red dragon that frequents the area from time to time. He and I have an agreement.

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some seeing eye
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by some seeing eye » Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:11 am

Readers in California might be concerned about what your legislature and governor is planning:
https://www.utilitydive.com/news/as-cal ... nc/552694/.

Rather than converting PG&E to a public nonprofit utility, restricting zoning in wildfire-prone areas, trimming the trees and updating the protection equipment, it's a ratepayer pays plan.

BTW tower of finance is a dumb name, it's the royal utility castle plan.
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Token
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Token » Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:36 pm

Not very different than the earthquake insurance we have in CA.

It’s not a direct hit to the public, the fund is still repaid by the utility if found negligent.

It just adds a big piggy bank buffer between the loss and recovery in order to float the utilities above bankruptcy.

Nothing in this plan prevents the courts or legislature from shredding PG&E or converting it to a public benefit or non-profit company.

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Token
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Token » Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:44 pm

KQED, the SF NPR station has great coverage of the PG&E fiasco.

PG&E asked state regulators for another increase in rates and profits, saying it was needed to attract investment as the utility goes through bankruptcy. That request and a previous one could result in average household bills rising more than $12 a month for electricity and natural gas.

The rate increase would help to pay investors a 16 percent return when they lend the bankrupt utility money.

California Gov. Gavin Newsom blasted PG&E Tuesday regarding the rate hike.

"They're not going to get 16 percent — PG&E — period, full stop," Newsom said. "To increase returns on Wall Street investment at a time when you haven't even settled the victims' claims is not only tone deaf — it's jaw droppingly wrong."
See, Uncle Gavin is not all that bad ...

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ygmir
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by ygmir » Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:51 am

Token wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:44 pm
KQED, the SF NPR station has great coverage of the PG&E fiasco.

PG&E asked state regulators for another increase in rates and profits, saying it was needed to attract investment as the utility goes through bankruptcy. That request and a previous one could result in average household bills rising more than $12 a month for electricity and natural gas.

The rate increase would help to pay investors a 16 percent return when they lend the bankrupt utility money.

California Gov. Gavin Newsom blasted PG&E Tuesday regarding the rate hike.

"They're not going to get 16 percent — PG&E — period, full stop," Newsom said. "To increase returns on Wall Street investment at a time when you haven't even settled the victims' claims is not only tone deaf — it's jaw droppingly wrong."
See, Uncle Gavin is not all that bad ...
the other side is that, though, could be that without the investments and investors, they won't have the money to pay off on claims? I mean, there's probably a bottom to the money bucket. You can't squeeze blood from a turnip, so perhaps PGE is looking at sources for funds/cash for the necessary costs of lawsuits, clean up, upgrades, forest clearing, etc, etc...?
The other thing I wonder: If, PGE were "destroyed" as a company, and made into one, or several public utilities, would that not take away the process of suing PGE and or damage claims? I mean, if there is no PGE, then what? Knowing you can't "sue the government"....
YGMIR

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Token
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Re: California Fires: Camp, Lost, Eden, Mountaineer, Woolsey, etc.

Post by Token » Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:08 am

ygmir wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:51 am


... so perhaps PGE is looking at sources for funds/cash for the necessary costs of lawsuits, clean up, upgrades, forest clearing, etc, etc...?
If only it was that, there would be no problems. But it isn’t that.

No, they need to pay the CEO $6M in salary, pay dividends to the shareholders, and the ever popular hundreds of millions in bonuses, which BTW got approved by the bankruptcy judge.

Having a non-profit, public benefit, or public utility corporation doesn’t absolve them of any laws, liability or lawsuits.

What it does is target the fiduciary back to the customers and away from the greed of Wall Street.

When I as a consumer cannot choose a different provider for one of my life sustaining services, sorry, free market economics fail, and I want protection and Gulag-strength regulation.

Look at SMUD - 100 years of serving Sacramento and no big disasters, no fat CEO, no Wall Street.

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