Legal drugs as appropriate/appreciated gifts?

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tigerlillie
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Post by tigerlillie » Wed Aug 03, 2005 7:39 pm

I know my comments were way way off base...but my question and curisoity is why did Stealthman decide to make their entrance on the eplaya with such a hardhanded, backhanded, statement with such an off the wall "comment" that I posted several days ago ? that is what has me wondering? not meaning to start anything, again, sorry for previous posts and agnry out bursts.
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Post by spectabillis » Wed Aug 03, 2005 7:48 pm

tigerlillie wrote: why did Stealthman decide to make their entrance on the eplaya with such a hardhanded, backhanded, statement with such an off the wall "comment" that I posted several days ago ?
Fair question. I am waiting on a PM response, that kind of stuff... well... you know, 'nuff said for the moment except dont take all the blame for this.

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Post by unjonharley » Wed Aug 03, 2005 7:59 pm

tigerlillie wrote:I know my comments were way way off base...but my question and curisoity is why did Stealthman decide to make their entrance on the eplaya with such a hardhanded, backhanded, statement with such an off the wall "comment" that I posted several days ago ? that is what has me wondering? not meaning to start anything, again, sorry for previous posts and agnry out bursts.


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i spoke my peace before so don't a shit about it.
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But tiger why don't you take a pill and go lie down. Or is some one going to have to talk to your super. No has your back in your office. It just don't work that way. Office mice like you can be let go for the shit you been handing out. I'm glad the piss you off.
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Post by spectabillis » Wed Aug 03, 2005 8:09 pm

Kinetic IV wrote:2 posts have not thrown the thread off balance, SB. Look at the calendar and remember that this close to the event some wacky things can happen with the board and the influx of new posters.
The above handful of posts are most likely an anomaly...at least I hope it is and everyone can stay on a civilized track with the discussion.
You are literally the fifth person to say that, and yet it continues. I just dont understand that reasoning when right afterwards you have...
unjonharley wrote: i spoke my peace before so don't a shit about it. But tiger why don't you take a pill and go lie down. Or is some one going to have to talk to your super. No has your back in your office. It just don't work that way. Office mice like you can be let go for the shit you been handing out. I'm glad the piss you off.
Seriously, what more is there to understand? Its clear.

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Post by Kinetic IV » Wed Aug 03, 2005 8:20 pm

Yeah, I saw the posts and kinda wished I'd have kept my mouth shut.

There's a lot of people concerned about the slippery slope of censorship and the many insidious forms it takes as it establishes a toehold, then takes over the place. The reaction you got was with that in mind, we don't want censorship here. Case in point, go back and look at the discussions over the eplaya revamp and the decisions that led to you SB being picked as one of the moderators. The concerns were very serious.

I have questions about the poster's intent in this case...both of his posts are interesting to say the least. But for me at least it takes more than 2 posts to form an opinion of someone...barring that they are not completely over the top and those posts didn't hit that point. I'm curious if the poster will come back and what his reply will be. If it's hostile we know what we're dealing with. If it's not then we have a new eplaya poster making a bigger splash into the pool than normal. It's too early to make an assessment yet...hopefully people will cool off and we'll see how it pans out.
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Post by spectabillis » Wed Aug 03, 2005 8:58 pm

Honestly, I understand what you are saying. I am not happy about making ANY decision to lock a thread and would never take it lightly.
I understand the censorship issue, but on the other hand it was pretty clear to me that things were going to get worse - and it did. So I really hope this does not turn into the situation where a few people on a couple of topics ruin it for everyone - there is more than enough of that already around this event.

I am not enjoying this right now, and I can only imagine what it will do for my attitude when I get to the meet and greet.

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Intent and the qualified definition of "legal"

Post by eirias » Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:44 am

In regard to the original topic of this thread--

I get the feeling that semantics is playing a strong role in both the way folks are interpreting the inital suggestions of gifting a potentially psychoactive substance and the nature of the responses received thus far in regard to what folks here believe Doug is implying.

Much of this probably has to do with the relativity of the term
"legal" drug(s)-- as it can be applied to a wide specturm of substances, ranging from the common and relatively benign to various more obscure compounds often with potent and unpredictable effects. Clearly, there is a marked difference in how many of us perceive a "legal" substance that is widely-used and well-understood in its effects (for example kava or damiana), versus a highly novel material that is largely unresearched, potently psychoactive, and may only fall within the very definition of "legal" under highly specific circumstances, for example whether or not it is ultimately intended for human consumption (a myriad of research-type chemicals fall into this description). In fact, several compounds that may be touted as being "legal" drugs are more accurately "not expressly illicit/controlled substance(s) under a particular set of circumstances".

Intent is a large factor in how both LEOs and non-LEOs alike interpret the "legality" of a given activity, as I'm sure many of you are aware of instances where a placebo or even a non-illicit psychoactive (which may or may not have had similar psychoactive effects as the compound is was being misrepresented as) was being used or distributed as a specific illegal drug, and as a result law enforcement prosecuted the perpetrator as if he/she in fact had the actual substance in question. Possessing MDMA or LSD-like tablets or doses, and then claiming or later "discovering" that they were in fact not that particular substance is little to no defense in court, and it's quite likely that if a given "legal" substance was being openly distributed on the Playa, albeit not technically controlled per se, that possessed an action substantially like that of a more common and illicit compound, that LEOs would neglect to recognize and respect such technicalities and would arrest and then attempt to (probably successfully) prosecute based on the intent and the activity which they witnessed.

The point of all this is that I felt that this distinction needed to be addressed. I could almost hear the sigh of relief, followed by the apologies and empathetic clarification of previous postings with more harsh/direct language, when Doug qualified his initial querie by explaining that the substance in question was akin to "a legal tea in capsule form", versus a molecular homologue of say fentanyl, 2C-B, or psilocin. No one pointed out the distinction, but the change in reponses was undeniable after his clarification.

Furthermore, the indiscriminate distribution of said analogues and homologues, regardless of how much well-meaning paperwork accompanies them, is simply a bad and risky idea for several reasons. Without going into this issue too much, among these reasons are increased scrutiny of such compounds among LEOs (i.e. negative attention leading up to eventual prohibition), not knowing how such unresearched substances will affect those whom might ingest them, and (as mentioned above) the blurred boundaries between legality and intent, 'controlled substance' and 'potential analogue of a controlled substance', and the appearance of a given substance being illegal versus bona fide illicitness.

Hopefully this will clarify some of the issues inherent in this debate, and at the very least will re-direct the present discussion to the topic at hand.
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Post by theCryptofishist » Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:32 am

The fact that this substance has never been named makes me suspicious of its "legality." I'm guessing that it's legal because it hasn't been outlawed, not because the powers that be find it an acceptable substance. So, the whole thing doesn't pass my sniff test. For what it's worth.
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Post by Kinetic IV » Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:50 am

theCryptofishist wrote:The fact that this substance has never been named makes me suspicious of its "legality." I'm guessing that it's legal because it hasn't been outlawed, not because the powers that be find it an acceptable substance. So, the whole thing doesn't pass my sniff test. For what it's worth.
You have a good point, he's never said precisely what he wants to bring. I went back through the thread and this is all I found:
Apology accepted. The Kava kava is along the lines of what I was considering, but good points made by all, and I'm overall glad I made the post, as I was dissuaded from doing something that people with more experience say is a bad idea.
Along the lines of ...but not an actual name. So Dougnaka if you are still on here would you care to answer this question? What are you bringing to give out as you suggested you were going to do?

Now the side question is: Will the eplaya rip into any suggestions he makes if he does say something? It may be legal but we may not agree with it's use. But I hope if he answers and it is legal that the board will hold their fire. This thread needs to stay discussion oriented and not turn into a flame fest. It's skirting a touchy subject anyway and any kind of dialogue is better than none. </soapbox>
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what i was thinking of bringing...

Post by dougnaka » Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:52 pm

So Dougnaka if you are still on here would you care to answer this question? What are you bringing to give out as you suggested you were going to do?
The name of the drug will not be mentioned on this permenant record of a board, at least not by me. I am not sure I want to increase the visibility of my new favorite recreational drug, as that's how these things seem to be outlawed in our fair, free land.

I'm still appreciative of the insight, and decided not to gift this based on it.

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Post by robbidobbs » Thu Aug 04, 2005 5:24 pm

Bring beer.

Lots of it.

Gift some to DPW, esp during the DPW Parade. They'll appreciate it. And save some for the end of the Parade to get the stragglers (like me).
I'll be in my blanket fort until further notice.

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Post by eirias » Fri Aug 05, 2005 1:00 am

Heroin in ready-to-use pre-prepped syringes (no cooking needed) with a glowstick attached, and crack cocaine in small one-hitter glass dicks (ready-rocked and ready-to-go!) -- Both the glass pipes and the syringes can be customized with an image of the Man (possibly shooting up or smoking a rock) and "BRC 2005!" emblazoned on the side so thay they can potentially be made into jewelry or otherwise kept as keepsake souvenirs from the recipients' Playa experiences.

(Sorry I couldn't resist)
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Re: what i was thinking of bringing...

Post by ZaphodBurner » Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:12 am

dougnaka wrote:
The name of the drug will not be mentioned on this permenant record of a board, at least not by me. I am not sure I want to increase the visibility of my new favorite recreational drug, as that's how these things seem to be outlawed in our fair, free land.

I'm still appreciative of the insight, and decided not to gift this based on it.
LOL! Now you have ME curious! May I ask privately what it is?

BTW, come on by the Zaphod camp at 3:30 and Amnesia for root beer, a hard drink, etc.

=c
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Post by eirias » Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:51 am

As an entheophile, I would guess Mitragyna speciosa, Salvia divinorum, Scletium(sp) tortuosum, or possibly something a bit more obscure like Lagochilis inebrians. These are all known psychoactives with centuries of indigenous usage, a few of which are restricted in various countries. These are potentially strong substances (esp. if in concentrated formulations), and the "mild buzz" one person gets from one might produce a potent and undesireable effect in another subject.
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Post by safetythird » Fri Aug 05, 2005 11:38 am

Kinetic IV wrote:
It's called a passionate defense of an event against what appeared to be a serious threat. No apologies should be required.
I'm having a hard time understanding this. Passionate? Yes! Defense? eh. Serious Threat? Common now. The guy was simply asking about LEGAL drugs and, I might add, conducting himself in a respectful manner.

It's overreacting, plain and simple. Apologies aren't required but in this case they ARE warranted.
Kinetic IV wrote: If you don't like it well you're just going to have to stay offended because if it comes up again I know I'd react the same. And I'm almost certain others would too.
I'd like to think that learning from one's mistakes is a good thing. Obviously this isn't universal.
Kinetic IV wrote: If you go to participate, you should also step up to help protect and defend the event.
I fail to see how your, and other, hostile responses either protected or defended the event. The OP was discussing LEGAL substances (which he never named anyways) and some people "overreacted" and "assumed" he was talking about narcotics. If anything, the hair pin trigger on negativity turns people off to the event. The very same people that make the event happen in the first place. I see this as a bad mark against the event. Should everyone bash you now?
Kinetic IV wrote: And you can't always pussy foot around, be politically correct, or emotionally sensitive when action is required. Step in, address the problem, get the shit done and the message out. That's my take on it.
You are right. Sometimes you just need to get shit done. In this case you need to be told that your shift on the cross is over. Thank you for protecting eplayans and the whole event from the lowlife mongrels seeking enlightenment. Your ability to wield pretentious garbage is legendary. All hail the protector of all things burny.

BTW: Nothing said on this board will cause the end of Burning Man. It may not be in line with TOS but then there's mods for that.

S3

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Post by Kinetic IV » Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:42 pm

Safetythird, I debated responding to you. And I've waited several hours after you made your thinly veiled personal attack post to do so. But you raised some points that I want to hit on and hopefully the rest of the board has wheel mice that will let them scroll right on by. Or you can use Plonk which is on your left. Let's break this down section by section, my comments are in italics:

I'm having a hard time understanding this. Passionate? Yes! Defense? eh. Serious Threat? Common now. The guy was simply asking about LEGAL drugs and, I might add, conducting himself in a respectful manner.

It's overreacting, plain and simple. Apologies aren't required but in this case they ARE warranted.

My first comment is to go back and reread the thread. In it's entirety. In caps I wrote: "but IMHO this is THE SINGLE MOST ASININE IDEA TO BE POSTED ON THE EPLAYA since it began." Notice I am shooting at the message, not the messenger here. And since I am using the written word and can't communicate with facial expressions or other routine forms of expression, the choice of words is all I have to get across my true feelings about the idea.

I'd like to think that learning from one's mistakes is a good thing. Obviously this isn't universal.

Yes it's good to learn from mistakes. I make mistakes every day and some are doozies. But I don't feel this is one of them.

I fail to see how your, and other, hostile responses either protected or defended the event. The OP was discussing LEGAL substances (which he never named anyways) and some people "overreacted" and "assumed" he was talking about narcotics. If anything, the hair pin trigger on negativity turns people off to the event. The very same people that make the event happen in the first place. I see this as a bad mark against the event. Should everyone bash you now?

The "hostile responses" have caused an active posting eplayan or two to stop and think about what an LE would do if they came across a situation where someone was handing out any kind of substances, a look at the thread will show that. Also in my mindset speaking up may have caused someone to think about what they plan to do out there, or they may remember this discussion at 11 pm some night on the playa and think hey, there's LE's out there and they could be watching. It may cause a bartender to keep a sharper eye out for minors. It may cause one less drug arrest as someone remembers this and does something different. (And I'm not saying anything out of line here, the number of arrests and offenses are public record, it has happened). That to me protects the event. Anything that increases awareness and decreases the need for LE's to get involved is a worthwhile thing.

In this case you need to be told that your shift on the cross is over. Thank you for protecting eplayans and the whole event from the lowlife mongrels seeking enlightenment. Your ability to wield pretentious garbage is legendary. All hail the protector of all things burny.

As long as I attend this event and plan to continue attending I have an interest in it's well being. Do I have direct influence? No. Can I change anything myself? Not directly. But the ORG put up this BBS for all of us to use, to post our ideas for the event. They do read it. And so I continue to put my ideas and opinions out there in hopes that it might influence a decision by someone somewhere down the line. I have no idea if it ever will. But I have the opportunity to do so, and so I do it. You may not agree with my message and your welcome to say so. But if you do, shoot the ideas / message, not the messenger. You don't know me and most likely have never met me. There's no need for you to attack me personally. Give that some thought, reread the thread, see how the discussion has changed some mindsets and then come back and reply.
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Post by OregonRed » Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:28 pm

I have been following this thread for awhile and finally feel compelled to post.

Y'all are some testy motherfuckers! In the beginning y'all jumped Dougnaka's shit for asking the question. Then, y'all take a turn and jump KIV and Badger's shit for expressing their opinions about the question.
As long as I attend this event and plan to continue attending I have an interest in it's well being. Do I have direct influence? No. Can I change anything myself? Not directly. But the ORG put up this BBS for all of us to use, to post our ideas for the event. They do read it. And so I continue to put my ideas and opinions out there in hopes that it might influence a decision by someone somewhere down the line. I have no idea if it ever will. But I have the opportunity to do so, and so I do it. You may not agree with my message and your welcome to say so. But if you do, shoot the ideas / message, not the messenger. You don't know me and most likely have never met me. There's no need for you to attack me personally. Give that some thought, reread the thread, see how the discussion has changed some mindsets and then come back and reply.
I'm responding:
Regardless of whether or not you bring/use drugs to the playa, it is everyone's respoinsibility to ensure that said drug use DOES NOT ruin the event for anyone.

If you want to use drugs on the playa, byo. Don't give them away, and don't tell anyone that you have them. Most importantly, DON"T ALLOW YOUR DRUG USE TO RUIN SOMEONE ELSE"S GOOD TIME!!!

If you prefer a sober burn (BRC is definately a place one does not need drugs), than don't bring/use drugs.

I suppose that that's a bit idealistic, but it has worked within our theme camp for seven years...
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long time old thread...

Post by dougnaka » Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:53 pm

Well everyone. I went to the burn last year, and learned a lot. Let this be a sort of summary/recap of things I learned about Burning man from my one time going half a week...

First, is the slogan already "Come for the party, stay for the community"? Because it could be.

The whole experience was nothing like I would have imagined. I took a supply of my legal drugs for personal use and didn't touch them. I took lots of alcohol and maybe downed 3 beers and one drink given by a camp I just dropped in on.

If you're new to Burning Man, or have never been, GO! er COME! er.. BOTH! I think Burning Man has something for everyone, just be open to it when it hits you, when it happens, and keep it with you throughout the rest of the year. I left last year thinking I never had to go back, and, honestly, I don't. At least not for myself. I absolutely *MUST* go back for everyone else though. The community there is simply amazing, and I regret I didn't fully immerse myself in it.

Burning Man isn't about drugs, legal or illegal. It isn't about sex, legal or illegal ;). It's really what they say in the guides, it's about community. It's about self expression. It's not so you can show up and follow the norm, or the groove, or anyone else. It's to help you realize who YOU are and how you relate to your fellow humans. It's a beautiful window into what could be possible with us all as a species if we could just get past the bullshit that society throws at us since we come out of the womb.

So, not that that is a very detailed or accurate result of what I learned in BM '05, but it'll have to do.

Now, to answer my own question, as a burner, in the way I think would be most appropriate.

First, the focus of the discussion should be shifted to participation vs. non-participation. Is gifting required at BM? Absolutely not. Nobody I met expected a gift from me, and only a handful of people I met gave me gifts. How you participate isn't mandated by anyone, and gifting is just one idea. I didn't plan to participate at my first burn, and there's really nothing wrong with that. But if I didn't participate from here on out, instead of shifting from a neophyte to an adept/member of the society, I'd shift into being a leech, sucking the blood out of the event, the community, and everyone who cares about this event.

Second, the legal drug I was thinking of bringing would have been fun to share with fellow burners, and I did end up shaing some with my fellow camp mates. But, in the way of here's my *gift* and this is it, here you go, take it, it's yours, it was a bad idea, and it wouldn't have "worked" or really "fit in" or been appropriate. Bring your fun things and make friends and share them with people. (this applies to the sex camp discussion as well) I realize that I was just at the end of my thought process to think of things to share, and very excited about my latest discovery and wanting to share. I felt like having a "gift" to share was required. At Burning Man I didn't see anyone just walking around randomly, handing out trinkets or gifts. Gifts are great if that's one way you WANT to participate, but totally not something that should be on your checklist to go. If you're not sure how to participate, I recommend just worry about getting by, dealing with things like camping, meals, and if you see an opening to jump in and 'participate' do it. I think loading newbies up with an expectation of required participation gives some people (like me) some kind of unfulfillable desire to do it 'right'.

Third, on gifting in general, I think the best gifts were ones that I got from people I got to know, and that, when I look at them, remind me of new friends. I got a few gifts that were just being handed out to the group I was with and I got one. I can't even remember who gave me these. And I don't think that's what gifting at Burning Man is all about.

Lots of rambling, hope someone finds what I've written helpful/enlightening. See you at the burn.

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Post by LeChatNoir » Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:45 pm

Welcome Home.

(grinning real big)

Edited to add: And thanks for posting an update!
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Re: Legal drugs as appropriate/appreciated gifts?

Post by INSANEPOOKIE » Mon Jul 10, 2006 2:38 am

[quote="HughMungus"][quote="dougnaka"]So.. ? thoughts?[/quote]

I wouldn't take a pill that a stranger handed to me.[/quote]

A chap could easily put something in food or drink they offer you as well. I, of course immediately have less trust for someone handing me a pill of anything over a food item. I was just saying in theory you never really know which friendly house is handing out razors in the apple.

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Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:14 am

How many times have I told you people not to post anything about drugs. ~Acid*. The feds are watching this site every hour. $6. If they find out that you doing drugs on the playa they will find you. (Extasy+. The Gerlack prison is a terrible place to spend the rest of your Life. $20 5 for $100. We playa people just don't you advertising it on eplaya. %weed>. Drugs are the bane of our society. $50 1/4. Good law abiding people like me have to pay thousands a year just to house addicted people like you. Peyote. New jail costing the public billions a year are fill mainly with addicts. $15/button. So if you really what to do BM a favor just leave your drugs at home. Center camp. I hope ths message makes it thought your thick skull. 1:00pm monday.

see you there!


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Post by Lorgasm » Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:20 am

Hey Zeus,

I totally agree.

Hugs,
Lorgasm
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