Sexual Violence

ecliptic · Post by **ecliptic** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:40 pm

Rob the Wop wrote:
Welp, in the words of my redneckish, violent elder bro- "Sometimes, the only thing that gets through is a good beating."

I agree with Rob. Aside from beating sense into the offender, it's a good way of making yourself feel better about the the outcome of the original offense. Simple but true.

Zane5100 · Post by **Zane5100** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:43 pm

Impalement...

It worked wonders for Vlad Tepes.

Rob the Wop · Post by **Rob the Wop** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:57 pm

Zane5100 wrote:Impalement...

It worked wonders for Vlad Tepes.

Camp Impalement? Right next to Camp Darwin?

<i>We're just a doin' our part for the human environment, ma'am.</i>

galaxybeing · Post by **galaxybeing** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 3:04 pm

ISDFSDF

Flux · Post by **Flux** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 3:16 pm

debkakes · Post by **debkakes** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 3:40 pm

can't figure out what's gone wrong with this thread. everyone agrees:
rape is despicable -- if no is uttered, and/or resistance offered, it is rape. pure and simple.
"No" must be uttered, though, and it is totally up to the party being pressed for sex to do so. Clandyone is absolutely correct: the party seeking intercourse should not be trusted to interpret vague signals that indicate reluctance or disinterest. "ummm...I don't know" does not mean no.
Avoid funky situations as much as possible. Gawd knows, we don't need escorts, but it is helpful to be with a group of people you trust (or at least one other) that is a little more sober or less fucked up than you are, if that's the way the evening appears to be going. Find someone to trust, quickly, if you are wheeling out of good sense's way. I don't think that's too difficult at BM -- I would myself be happy to mentor a fucked up sister or brother through the process of at least getting back to camp, if asked (according to many posts, lots of people spend their burn quite sober). We can also keep our eyes open for those who look like they may be in this kind of sitch -- true, we may be told to mind our own bizness, but at least we'd have tried.
Am I being simplistic?? It sucks that this crime exists, but check it out, it's part of our lives now, all of us. Look out for yourself. Look out for each other. And file charges.

debkakes · Post by **debkakes** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 3:41 pm

obviously, the person cannot utter "no" and that does not mean it is not rape. just so I'm clear, cuz people jump on every little thing here, oh yes they do.

III · Post by **III** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 3:44 pm

thx debkakes.

it's a wormy situation, and i think you've drawn a pretty clear bottom line. (my own lies somewhere above that. but i've also noticed i don't always synch up with the way the world works).

diane o'thirst · Post by **diane o'thirst** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 3:51 pm

The m.o. actually sounds like a Rhopie-rapist who was stalking our camp and did his thing to a couple women in our group.

Backstory: The perp was an Oriental man in his early 20s who went by the handle of "Romeo." He had very long straight black hair but that can change almost effortlessly. His schtick, so to speak, was to make friends with the target, get somewhere private with her, slip her Rhopies and rape her. He raped the wrong girl — inadequate dosage, she was paralyzed but didn't pass out and got a positive ID. Her boyfriend went after the little piece of Wyrmspawn, he was caught (giving it to several girls in San Francisco, including a couple underagers), and unfortunately the San Francisco DA offered to drop the sexual charges if he plead guilty to the drug charges. He was out after about 18 months time served.

Yes, it is an injustice. There's talk of a CA state law in the works that will ban plea-bargaining in sexual felony cases, for exactly this case.

This IS NOT an urban legend, every word of it is quantifiable. We've got his number now and the past couple years have been quiet and secure around our camp, I'm wondering if Romeo just moved on to another group.

PetsUntilEaten · Post by **PetsUntilEaten** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 4:18 pm

Taz wrote:By the whole outbreak of you guys should be sent to a bottomless dungeon for your offense aren't you saying these perpetrators should know their place?

yes.

Lydia Love · Post by **Lydia Love** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 4:38 pm

But letting it go as a gift now is a lot better than hating and feeling used.

This is called "denial" something that usually gets you after a while. From "It didn't really mean anything" to "Maybe I did dress too provocatively" to "Uncle Bob said it was just a game" girls have done this quite a bit over the eons. Maybe it does work for some women... dunno, haven't met any.

If you folk are just going to take the same reactions that you would have in the "real" world to Burning Man and not come up with anything better, then what's the fucking point??

In *MY* universe wrong here is wrong there is wrong here, better is a matter of perspective and there is no fucking point that we can all agree on.

PJ · Post by PJ » Wed Sep 10, 2003 4:47 pm

Ivy wrote:...Let's say I have a vagina. I choose to give it to you. It's a gift.

That makes it sound like I'm supposed to take it straight home and put it in the refrigerator so it doesn't spoil.

Das Bus · Post by **Das Bus** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 4:53 pm

Lydia Love wrote:

In *MY* universe wrong here is wrong there is wrong here, better is a matter of perspective and there is no fucking point that we can all agree on.

I agree completely. The first 'Burner' we ever met told a us a story about a 13 yr old girl that wanted to trade sex for a pack of cigarettes. While he says he went ahead and gave her cigarettes but did not have sex with her, he felt it was perfectly alright for an adult male to have sex with a child at Burning Man because "Hey, it's Burning Man!"

Sick Fuck!

Kinetic · Post by **Kinetic** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 5:10 pm

I was going to steer clear of this thread until I saw this:

Das Bus wrote:
Lydia Love wrote:
The first 'Burner' we ever met told a us a story about a 13 yr old girl that wanted to trade sex for a pack of cigarettes. While he says he went ahead and gave her cigarettes but did not have sex with her, he felt it was perfectly alright for an adult male to have sex with a child at Burning Man because "Hey, it's Burning Man!"

Sick Fuck!

Sick fuck is right...just because it's BM doesn't mean a damn thing. There are some things that are just flat fucking wrong. The example above is one of them....I'm assuming the guy she asked was much older too.

Tiff got approached by a 30 y.o. Argentinian dude who felt it was ok to sleep with a 15 year old. This individual got a nice instructional lesson in American law.....and that's all I will say about it.

Meanwhile I need to go back and read the full thread....I just saw DasBus had posted so I came in...I had no idea it was so hot in here from all the comments.

Stormy · Post by **Stormy** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:36 pm

Well not really but it makes for a good subject line.

All this talk of squeezing nuts and knocking guys in the head reminds me of my days of pounding on the guys in the padded suits. In my ideal world, every female would get to take a freevBAMM or IMPACT class (full force self-defense training). There's nothing more empowering than knowing that one can knock someone unconscious and squish all their grey matter using nothing more than bare hands, feet, elbows and knees. Knowing that I have the power of life and death over someone who attacks me, allows me to decide if a couple of jabs is enough or a complete knock out and brain thrashing is necessary to immobilize the jerk. I'd like to think that I would be merciful if something ever did happen, but it's nice knowing that I can totally turn the power dynamic around.

If you're a woman please consider checking this out: http://www.bamm.org/ . There are scholarships available if cost is a factor. Though if you can swing it, it's worth every penny, it's all about completely freeing your mind from the oppression that's been loaded on you all of your life. It's one of the coolest things, I've done in my life, at least as important as doing Burning Man (for me).

Flux · Post by **Flux** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 10:09 pm

In my ideal world, every female would get to take a freevBAMM or IMPACT class (full force self-defense training). There's nothing more empowering than knowing that one can knock someone unconscious and squish all their grey matter using nothing more than bare hands, feet, elbows and knees.

Hell, in my ideal world that kind of thing would be available to males, too! Not all of us are insensitive, muscle-bound, macho ass-kickers. Lots of boys and men have been victims of violence, due to gentle natures, small physical size, etc.

Violence and abuse are depressingly common across gender, racial, and other lines. Certian classes of victims get more (or more dramatic) publicity than others, but that doesn't diminish the pain of the victims not so widely recognized.

Das Bus · Post by **Das Bus** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 10:11 pm

Flux:

I just went to the BAMM site and they DO have classes for men. : )

Flux · Post by **Flux** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 10:14 pm

Lora,

Very cool, thanks! I sure could have used something like that in 7th or 8th grade...

<3,
Flux

Stormy · Post by **Stormy** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 10:14 pm

Das Bus wrote:Flux:

I just went to the BAMM site and they DO have classes for men. : )

Yes, one of my best friends took the IMPACT class. In fact, he helped to pay for my BAMM class as a Christmas present.

Chimp · Post by **Chimp** » Thu Sep 11, 2003 3:26 am

Regarding the guy with the 13 year old and underage sex, yeah, that is so wrong and very upsetting like much of the stuff posted on this thread (interesting and perhaps a bit worrying that it seems to be the most visited -the words 'Sexual Violence' obviously attract a lot of attention). But the one thing this thread has made me see clearly is that as much as Burning Man is an alternative social project designed to facilitate free expression it is also a microcosm of the increasingly dystopian and generally fucked up society we all spend most of our time in. Anyone can go to BM, and obviously they can all have their own agendas - by the weekend it seems a lot of pricks show up and cause the vibe to become a little confused, schizoid - what we all want to feel out there is safe, safe, ironically perhaps, to go wild (excess, as Blake put it, being the path to wisdom). Date rape is a massive problem that is growing in our society, peodohilia (spelling?) too is rampant - I mean yeah we can beat these MFs into a pulp and so on but at some point we have to try to understand why shit like this goes down - what is it about our everday society that facilitates acts of extreme perversion or sociopathic behaviour? If Burners can shed some light on this then hey, maybe we can take the knowledge we attain back to the wider world - I am not sure of my point here but I think this is really the most poignant thread I have seen on the Eplaya and perhaps we can genuinely achieve some kind of consensus through this discussion.

To the person who has been saying 'she should see what happened as a gift - giving exercise' etc, I am sorry but that is about the dumbest thing I have ever heard - and to the dude who posted the victorian image that said "treat every woman as you would want any man to treat your daughter, sister or sweetheart" - That is beautiful man, and to any detractors who think that seems kind of dated or sexist - the heart expressed in that sentiment is at least very clear, well, it touched me anyway. BAMM sounds interesting, being the kind of guy who punches people's fists with my nose if ya know what I mean perhaps I should look into it over here. To anyone by the way who is reading these posts and thinking - Ha, I am guilty of this or that - I hope to god that some of the things people are sharing here are waking you up to yourselves, fuckers.

Does art reflect life or life reflect art? An old question, well does BM reflect society, if so can that question become 'Does society reflect BM?' I guess that is what we all hope for as being part of that tiny sect of humanity that travel out to the desert for the Burn.

I have only been twice by the way but have never felt more at home anywhere else on earth and will continue to go until I, it or the Earth expires.

ripple · Post by **ripple** » Thu Sep 11, 2003 12:46 pm

A frist time burner female friend was offered GHB multiple times by an asshole of a man on Thursday night/Friday morning while I was DJing... she is super innocent (and very beautiful), and she was obviuosly drunk that night - she finally got my friends to chase the guy away.

debkakes · Post by **debkakes** » Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:28 pm

I'm very very curious about something. I perceive BRC as a microcosm of the world at large, representing all that is best and consequently worst in human nature. That would mean that the sorts of felonious (at worst) and sleazy (marginally less-worse) behavior we've been reading about in this disturbing thread were present in previous years in equal proportion. It's true everyone who ever attended BM is not on this thread...but I'd appreciate some perspective from veterans (outside of the prevalent "this year's BM was the worst one ever" rants) about this issue. Thx!

Zane5100 · Post by **Zane5100** » Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:31 pm

I haven't heard of a murder committed in BRC... yet.

Zane5100 · Post by **Zane5100** » Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:32 pm

debkakes wrote:I'd appreciate some perspective from veterans (outside of the prevalent "this year's BM was the worst one ever" rants) about this issue. Thx!

BTW, this was not the worst burn for me... by a long shot.

Das Bus · Post by **Das Bus** » Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:50 pm

I think it all boils down to perceptions and expectations.

My first year sucked because I had high expectations and illusions of what it would be like. It completely threw me off when I ran into assholes and found that the same pettiness you find in 'real' life, you find at BM. It's just not on as large a scale.

We think that BM will be a utopian society when we first go, then you run into some negativity and it can crush your experience - if you let it.

I almost wasn't going to back in '02, but I had to. My eyes had been opened and I, personally, was in a much better state mentally than the first year. (BTW; Whatever mental baggage you bring with you to Black Rock will most likely be amplified 10 times!)

I think BRC is the safest city on earth. But there are assholes everywhere, even on the playa. There just seems to be a smaller percentage of them.

debkakes · Post by **debkakes** » Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:51 pm

Of course a lot of folks are posting very positive comments and observations. But a lot of people are interesting in exploiting the negatives this year. Just meant I didn't really want that sort of skewed feedback to my question.

Zane5100 · Post by **Zane5100** » Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:55 pm

debkakes wrote:Just meant I didn't really want that sort of skewed feedback to my question.

Understand.

...and I'm just a big teddy bear (or so I've been told).

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Thu Sep 11, 2003 2:01 pm

JP / Chimp wrote:perhaps we can genuinely achieve some kind of consensus through this discussion.

I hope not. I can think of few things more boring or likely to lead to stagnation.

angelface · Post by **angelface** » Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:39 pm

I'm a second year burner, and rather small female and I can say that I did plenty of wandering around by myself, and not always sober. In two years I have not had any near-scary experiences. The one thing I always pay attention to is my gut instinct.. if someone gives me a weird vibe, I remove myself from the situation. I certainly kissed and hugged tons of different people, but only the ones I was confortable with. Anyone else was given a polite no thanks, and then I would walk away, don't think I wouldn't have escalted to yelling or something if I thought it was needed. I realize that I could still be a victim of the random rapist or GHB date rape thingy (although, I usually drink alcohol out of a sippy cup, the kind kids use, and I think it would be hard to slip me something without my noticing.. also keeps the dust out), but don't feel the need to be any more vigilant at burning man than I do at home. It can be a dangerous world out there and each one of us is responsible to look out for ourselves.

blyslv · Post by **blyslv** » Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:42 pm

Are we ever going to get around to discussing violent sex?

<ducking>

Sexual Violence

Wisdom of the ages

thread gone mad

oh and in case of drugged rape

Sounds Like Romeo

Shameless Plug

Friend was offered GHB multiple times...

Experiences from BMs past?

Re: Experiences from BMs past?

not you in particular (i don't even know u, zane)

Re: not you in particular (i don't even know u, zane)