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Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.
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Tancorix
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Post by Tancorix » Fri Jan 23, 2004 7:41 pm

aforceforgood wrote:It's kind of telling, given the subject matter, that they surfaced as posts rather than as pms, now isn't it?
This is what has me suspecting a pseudo-master sock puppeteer behind it. When I brought up Araceli the non-use of PM's is one of the key things that gave it away along with my spelling error of "yours" instead of using proper punctuation. (It's dyslexia at work, sorry). Anyway I can sit here and read denial after denial but it feels like deja-vu to me.

As for the theories behind it all, I suspect a deep seated animosity too. Someone made his experience miserable, and now he wants revenge and to shut the event down. Or maybe this is to shut down an event that is taking someone away from him? Who knows. But in any event going up against 30,000 people who want to see this event happen is a tall order.

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Apollonaris Zeus
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This StopBurningman is Right!

Post by Apollonaris Zeus » Sat Jan 24, 2004 2:59 pm

Its about time we stood up against the machine of BM!

Frogpond is just the beginning of multiple water wells lining the playa!!!!

Don't you see there is no stoping these madmen!

I say if they can mine minerals in open pits then they should pay a bunch of people to kick up some dust on a playa. The playa is a very hardy place but dust blows in and out and as long as stays there's little reason for BM to move except perhaps a few miles east or west.

A II Z

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Last Real Burner
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Oh yeah!!!....

Post by Last Real Burner » Sat Jan 24, 2004 5:35 pm

Larry Harvey is Dick Cheney


"kiss my Ashcroft!"

irresponsibly,
mr smith
"Do you know what happened to the boy who got everything he wished for? - He lived happily ever after".

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Badger
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Post by Badger » Sat Jan 24, 2004 6:43 pm

MichaelMichael is not a sock.

Michael Michael is just who he says he is.

Danger Ranger.
Desert dogs drink deep.

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Tancorix
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Post by Tancorix » Sat Jan 24, 2004 8:13 pm

Thanks for the clarification...and MichaelMichael I apologize for the confusion.

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DE FACTO
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Post by DE FACTO » Sat Jan 24, 2004 10:16 pm

Wow, was that really THE MichaelMichae?

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Tancorix
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Post by Tancorix » Sun Jan 25, 2004 5:14 pm

http://tinyurl.com/2wl3u

This is an article on the Sunday 01/25/04 RGJ website and it escalates this debate to an entirely new level. Please excuse the full post but I felt it's important to get the message out about what these people are trying to do. While the community has dismissed there arguments as total bunk, getting a story out on the AP wire that is so one sided changes the playing field. A response is going to be required.

Opponents of Nevada's Burning Man launch Internet campaign

Associated Press

1/25/2004 01:35 pm
Opponents of the annual Burning Man counterculture festival on the Nevada desert have launched an Internet campaign against event organizers and federal land managers.

Opponents maintain the weeklong gathering on the Black Rock Desert leading up to Labor Day harms a unique desert landscape and results in ineffective cleanup efforts.

"The organizers of the event as well as the BLM are not living up to the public trust in making sure the land is restored to a reasonably clean state,"group spokesman Ed Mitchell of San Mateo, Calif., told the Reno Gazette-Journal.

But Bureau of Land Management officials and representatives of San Francisco-based Black Rock City LLC say the cleanup of the art festival that drew 30,000 people last summer serves as a model of how to leave no trace on a sensitive area.

"I feel very comfortable with what we do out there,"Black Rock City spokeswoman Marian Goodell said.

BLM spokesman David Cooper agreed:"Burning Man has done an outstanding job of cleanup. They have set the standard for cleanup on the Black Rock playa."

In their Web site, Mitchell and other opponents insist the public is being"spoon-fed propaganda"over an event that actually is taking a serious toll on the desert.

They want independent scientists to produce a detailed"environmental report card"on Burning Man and ensure the desert is not being destroyed for future generations.

Their Web site features a 2000 letter by prominent Nevada scientists Peter Brussard and Donald Sada calling for an environmental impact assessment of human activities on the desert.

Mitchell, 30, a computer systems administrator, said he has seen rebar, tent stakes and other debris left scattered on the playa after Burning Man.

He also cites damage to a privately owned hot springs leased to Black Rock City for water used in dust control during the event.

"These guys are saying one thing and doing another,"agreed event critic Rodney Sparks, 26, a Sacramento engineer.

Citing documents obtained under the federal Freedom of Information Act, Mitchell said BLM officials admit the system used to measure the success of the cleanup effort is arbitrary in nature and not based on sound science.

The agency makes only a random inspection of parts of affected public land.

Cooper acknowledged the cleanup inspection is an evolving process that might be changed in the future.

He also noted Burning Man already was studied in an environmental asessment released in May 2003, but said additional studies might be warranted.

The BLM has proposed a study of"playa dynamics"that would include an examination of small, mysterious sand dunes observed near the festival site in recent years.

Opponents contend the dunes make driving unsafe for other desert users and probably are caused by large volumes of dust kicked up by Burning Man participants.

"Not enough is known about it,"Cooper said.

___

On the Net:

Opponents'site: www.stopburningman.org

Organizers'site: www.burningman.com

Information from: Reno Gazette-Journal[/url]

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Badger
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Post by Badger » Sun Jan 25, 2004 5:40 pm

So K, why do you feel it necessary to give credence and credibility to it by pushing this to the fore.

It's exactly what these fuck-o' were looking for and you handed it out on a silver platter.

Sometimes I wonder what the fuck makes you tick.
Desert dogs drink deep.

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DE FACTO
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Post by DE FACTO » Sun Jan 25, 2004 5:54 pm

aforceforgood wrote:
And the 2004 award for most egregious, stupid, and transparent use of a sock puppet goes to.... the stopbmorg people!

Really, you're not very good at this, that was obviously an attempt to prove/show that the stopbmorg people are burners, and burners who were there at the very beginning, as if that would make their comments somehow more worthy of consideration.

Shut the fuck up until you have some evidence to support your conclusion.

Does this count as feeding the troll? I'm sorry, but I just couldn't resist poking fun at this...
Please. Go back to the children's table.

If you'd like to refute the idea that the various stopbmorg people are socks, then a picture of you guys with your left finger in your right ear and holding up 3 fingers on your right hand posted here would do nicely. Any other denials will be ignored so please don't waste our time. Thanks.

:lol:

That was pretty funny.

I really miss you guys.



Hey you go ahead you there sir michaelmichael

:lol:

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Post by Bob A » Sun Jan 25, 2004 6:28 pm

Badger wrote:So K, why do you feel it necessary to give credence and credibility to it by pushing this to the fore.

It's exactly what these fuck-o' were looking for and you handed it out on a silver platter.

Sometimes I wonder what the fuck makes you tick.
Its not a matter of what is said on the eplaya that matters as much as what goes out to the world, if the AP picked up these idiots thats the real risk. We know they are full of shit but people love to listen to shit out there. The LLC needs to respond to the article before these people get any more credibility by getting more press. The media has never been famous for showing both sides of an issue they just want to cover what will sell and is handed to them.

They could turn into a real problem if they are left alone in the outside world (maybe during permit time this year or next ?) to say and do what they want. Fighting them in here is not enough, or actually anything, except to us.

I'm just a virgin going for the first time this year but I want the man to burn freely for many years to come, after all, I've just found my family I want it to be around for a long time to come.

Bob A

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Tancorix
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Post by Tancorix » Sun Jan 25, 2004 7:31 pm

Badger wrote:So K, why do you feel it necessary to give credence and credibility to it by pushing this to the fore.

It's exactly what these fuck-o' were looking for and you handed it out on a silver platter.

Sometimes I wonder what the fuck makes you tick.
The AP article gave them credence and credibility to a much larger audience than the 3200+ users here. And that's the problem. This group (the eplaya) has broken down every single argument they presented and it looked like they had retreated. Well now it's different. With that AP article out there it's important to take the same points that we debated here and get them out to the public to start undoing the damage this is going to cause.

I'm not going to say the sky is falling but there is a need to raise the alarm that fuckwits like this if allowed to keep going could find a way to jeopardize the event. It has to be countered. So by posting that article it was a call to action.

So yeah by posting it here I gave them an ego boost. But hopefully when others see this they'll go "oh shit" and start working to counter their message.

And as for wondering about me, stick with asking physics questions about transuranic elements.

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Tancorix
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Post by Tancorix » Sun Jan 25, 2004 7:59 pm

And for what it's worth to try and counter their message I wrote a rebuttal to the RGJ and we'll see if it gets printed.

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Das Bus
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Post by Das Bus » Sun Jan 25, 2004 10:08 pm

OK, I'll be honest here, I'm not reading pages 11 - 13. It's too much to go through, so I'm sorry if I am repeating something that someone else said.

Previously, there was a mention of these people (sparks, stopbmorg,etc...) camping on the playa. And now we have an article that again mentions they CURRENTLY camp on the playa. What I want to know is.... What do they do with their FECES!!!!! That has not been addressed. Let's see the proof that they have hauled their SHIT home!!!!

(I'd rather run across a stray feather than your crap!)

Fuck You Assholes!!!!!!
Medicated and Motivated!

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DE FACTO
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Preventing the death of the man.

Post by DE FACTO » Sun Jan 25, 2004 11:48 pm

ok,

so this is my first removal.
Last edited by DE FACTO on Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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DE FACTO
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Post by DE FACTO » Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:06 am

oh yeah, I also forgot.

for anyone whos intersted the Tubes are playing in town.

I put it up on one of my threads at the bottom here:

http://eplaya.burningman.org/viewtopic. ... 2&start=60

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sparks
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Post by sparks » Mon Jan 26, 2004 2:21 am

Site update...

http://www.stopburningman.org/

-Rodney
"Corduroy pillows... they're making headlines"
- unknown wise man

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Tancorix
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Post by Tancorix » Mon Jan 26, 2004 5:33 am

For a website that's getting AP coverage this is an interesting message to see when I clicked on the hyperlink to it:

If you can see this, it means that the installation of the Apache web server software on this system was successful. You may now add content to this directory and replace this page.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seeing this instead of the website you expected?
This page is here because the site administrator has changed the configuration of this web server. Please contact the person responsible for maintaining this server with questions. The Apache Software Foundation, which wrote the web server software this site administrator is using, has nothing to do with maintaining this site and cannot help resolve configuration issues.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Apache documentation has been included with this distribution.
You are free to use the image below on an Apache-powered web server. Thanks for using Apache! (The above error was edited on the initial reply to remove empty line spacing only. 7:32 am CST)

Come on guys, your 15 minutes of fame is slipping away! If the site is not up it's another credibility hit. You get awesome free press, the kind that some organizations would dream of and then you see this wonderful error when one visits the website. This doesn't bode well for your chances of success!

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sparks
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Post by sparks » Mon Jan 26, 2004 8:18 am

It works for me on a computer that hasn't seen the new site until just now, so I don't know what's up, or if it's still a problem. I'll tell our tech guy. Thanks for the heads up.

EDIT: Apparently the mirror server hadn't been updated yet, but it is now. Give it another try.

-Rodney
Tancorix wrote:For a website that's getting AP coverage this is an interesting message to see when I clicked on the hyperlink to it:

If you can see this, it means that the installation of the Apache web server software on this system was successful. You may now add content to this directory and replace this page.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seeing this instead of the website you expected?
This page is here because the site administrator has changed the configuration of this web server. Please contact the person responsible for maintaining this server with questions. The Apache Software Foundation, which wrote the web server software this site administrator is using, has nothing to do with maintaining this site and cannot help resolve configuration issues.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Apache documentation has been included with this distribution.
You are free to use the image below on an Apache-powered web server. Thanks for using Apache! (The above error was edited on the initial reply to remove empty line spacing only. 7:32 am CST)

Come on guys, your 15 minutes of fame is slipping away! If the site is not up it's another credibility hit. You get awesome free press, the kind that some organizations would dream of and then you see this wonderful error when one visits the website. This doesn't bode well for your chances of success!
"Corduroy pillows... they're making headlines"
- unknown wise man

allanon2
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I think you had the location cached on your machine

Post by allanon2 » Mon Jan 26, 2004 9:11 am

all new machines neevr had a issue.

Tancorix wrote:For a website that's getting AP coverage this is an interesting message to see when I clicked on the hyperlink to it:

If you can see this, it means that the installation of the Apache web server software on this system was successful. You may now add content to this directory and replace this page.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seeing this instead of the website you expected?
This page is here because the site administrator has changed the configuration of this web server. Please contact the person responsible for maintaining this server with questions. The Apache Software Foundation, which wrote the web server software this site administrator is using, has nothing to do with maintaining this site and cannot help resolve configuration issues.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Apache documentation has been included with this distribution.
You are free to use the image below on an Apache-powered web server. Thanks for using Apache! (The above error was edited on the initial reply to remove empty line spacing only. 7:32 am CST)

Come on guys, your 15 minutes of fame is slipping away! If the site is not up it's another credibility hit. You get awesome free press, the kind that some organizations would dream of and then you see this wonderful error when one visits the website. This doesn't bode well for your chances of success!

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Post by BlueBirdPoof » Mon Jan 26, 2004 10:02 am

Okay.
I would like to draw your attention to the Final Environmental Impact Statement for the Black Rock Desert/High Rock Canyon/Emmigrant Trails National Conservation Area Land Management Plan.
http://www.blackrockhighrock.org/proposedPlan.asp
The Draft EIS was issued last year. A part of the legal process allows for comment by interested members of the public, either by letter/fax/phone call or by attending any of the public meetings and speaking up. Attendence sheets are passed around and signed. I cannot find the names "Rex Scates," "Ed Mitchell," "Peter Brussard," "Donald Sada," or "Rodney Sparks" in the list of people who commented on the document. (Appendix N) True, you can chose not to sign or not to have your name published, but once again that would seem pretty poor tactics on their part. If they wished to challenge the document in court, having their names and comments included--as well as the BLM responce--might have been a good idea. But it looks like once again, they are publicity hounds rather than interested in working within the system. They seem about as interested in contacting BLM as they are in contacting the LLC. I do not know the Environmental Assesment to which they refer (EAs are smaller, less comprehensive documents), but I will keep an eye out for it.
I also browsed the comments for a while--it gets dull, I admit. I didnt' go through all the off-road comments but they seemed to be about other areas of the NCA rather than the South Playa. Only one comment on the Playa crustacea ecology. But I encourage those of you with the time and the interest to see what you can find.
I bet we (the American taxpayer) paid for the photocopying and administrative charges that their FOIA request incurred too. And I find it interesting what they do and do not do in public participation.

allanon2
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check the public comment period for 2003 Burnign man permit

Post by allanon2 » Mon Jan 26, 2004 10:07 am

we are there.
and you expect us to spend thousands(or tens of thousands) of dollars to legally challenge something? we are individuals we want people to think for themselves and not be told lies or half truths.

and this is EIS about the whole NCA which is not just burning man.
we can't work on everything. I bet if i asked for all foia documents about the whole NCA it would be 20,000 pages or more and that would be very expensive.

and I paid for half of that foia request. I think my half of the 4000 pages ro so was 400 dollars. The total cost was about 800.
so no we paid for their time.

so any other questions?

BlueBirdPoof wrote:Okay.
I would like to draw your attention to the Final Environmental Impact Statement for the Black Rock Desert/High Rock Canyon/Emmigrant Trails National Conservation Area Land Management Plan.
http://www.blackrockhighrock.org/proposedPlan.asp
The Draft EIS was issued last year. A part of the legal process allows for comment by interested members of the public, either by letter/fax/phone call or by attending any of the public meetings and speaking up. Attendence sheets are passed around and signed. I cannot find the names "Rex Scates," "Ed Mitchell," "Peter Brussard," "Donald Sada," or "Rodney Sparks" in the list of people who commented on the document. (Appendix N) True, you can chose not to sign or not to have your name published, but once again that would seem pretty poor tactics on their part. If they wished to challenge the document in court, having their names and comments included--as well as the BLM responce--might have been a good idea. But it looks like once again, they are publicity hounds rather than interested in working within the system. They seem about as interested in contacting BLM as they are in contacting the LLC. I do not know the Environmental Assesment to which they refer (EAs are smaller, less comprehensive documents), but I will keep an eye out for it.
I also browsed the comments for a while--it gets dull, I admit. I didnt' go through all the off-road comments but they seemed to be about other areas of the NCA rather than the South Playa. Only one comment on the Playa crustacea ecology. But I encourage those of you with the time and the interest to see what you can find.
I bet we (the American taxpayer) paid for the photocopying and administrative charges that their FOIA request incurred too. And I find it interesting what they do and do not do in public participation.

respecttheplanet
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Post by respecttheplanet » Mon Jan 26, 2004 10:48 am

[quote]
The AP article gave them credence and credibility to a much larger audience than the 3200+ users here. And that's the problem. This group (the eplaya) has broken down every single argument they presented and it looked like they had retreated. [quote]

You ARE delusional, aren't you? No, you have not "broken down every single arguement."
Yes, we got press - because we're speaking the truth. The Iraqi Information Ministe...errr..Marion has already tried to put her spin on things, but it's too late.

And no, nobody retreated.

Yes, it may seem like a few of us are frustrated. That's quite possibly because talking to some of you people is like talking to a brick wall.

Just for fun, check this out:
http://www.jwz.org/gruntle/burningman.html

Someone *else* that points another aspect of the ridiculous hipocrasy that the LLC spoon feeds you people.

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Tancorix
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Post by Tancorix » Mon Jan 26, 2004 10:57 am

If a person or group is determined to challenge something it doesn't take thousands of dollars to mount a challenge.

In any event the second that reporter pushed the stopburningman.org protest story out onto the AP wire, the game changed. I hope you have a good playbook and gameplan ready as this group is going to be tested. Let the fun begin.

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BlueBirdPoof
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Why, oh why, oh why, oh why. . .

Post by BlueBirdPoof » Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:15 am

allanon2 wrote: we are individuals we want people to think for themselves and not be told lies or half truths.
When these people say say "Think for yourself" I hear the dependent clause "and think as we do."

And I'd regard that Las Vegas paper as an untrustworthy ally on environmental issues. They seem firmly rooted in the libertarianism of the open west that insists that fights federal control--including environmental controls--of federal lands is intrusive. Remember those National Park Rangers? Forest Service Rangers? that got killed in Arizona in the 90s. That's the sort of mindset I'm talking about.
Last edited by BlueBirdPoof on Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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KellY
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Post by KellY » Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:16 am

Okay Allanon and Co.

My opinion: You are shit-filled assholes with a grudge, pursuing some private vendetta against the event. You don't really give a fuck about the environment or else you'd go up against someone who was doing real damage. Metric very clearly blew your arguments away and you never once responded directly to his statements.

You may end up inconveniencing the event, but you won't stop it because any investigation into your claims will show that they have no merit. You got a lazy newspaper who didn't bother to check your claims out to give you publicity - another sorry example of the state of the media. As for your claim that you got the press's attention because you spoke the truth, let me remind everyone of the media's repetition of Bush's claims that Iraq had weapons on mass destruction, of the endless blatherings about Whitewater that amounted to nothing, of the smearing of Wen Ho Lee's reputation, etc.

Karma's gonna be motherfucker, you spiteful losers.
"Of what use is a philosopher who doesn't hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes

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Isotopia
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Post by Isotopia » Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:18 am

Let the fun begin.
K, Would you just shut up for once or at least pull your foot out of your mouth from your last post before you engage again?

You think this is fun? A game?

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DE FACTO
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Post by DE FACTO » Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:22 am

this is the second retraction i've done on this thread. and it is also true for the board.
Last edited by DE FACTO on Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:43 am, edited 2 times in total.

Guest

Post by Guest » Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:26 am

tancorix, bluebird, DF, kelly, et al. -- pulling together a unified response will be much more effective than engaging 1:1 with rex, ed, rodney, et al.

that includes not only posting here, but in refutations to the media.

each post here fuels their fire, each individual letter-to-the-editor actually fragments us, for now. please chill, just for a bit.

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sparks
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Post by sparks » Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:31 am

1) The Reno Gazette was doing research long before we more or less fell silent on this forum.

2) Please read the words highlighted in yellow at the beginning of the text on http://www.stopburningman.org . Don't you think that if we were on some kind of non-ecological vendetta, we'd take advantage of millions of open minds to do some nice, juicy badmouthing? WE DON'T WANT TO STOP THE EVENT.
KellY wrote:Okay Allanon and Co.

My opinion: You are shit-filled assholes with a grudge, pursuing some private vendetta against the event. You don't really give a fuck about the environment or else you'd go up against someone who was doing real damage. Metric very clearly blew your arguments away and you never once responded directly to his statements.

You may end up inconveniencing the event, but you won't stop it because any investigation into your claims will show that they have no merit. You got a lazy newspaper who didn't bother to check your claims out to give you publicity - another sorry example of the state of the media. As for your claim that you got the press's attention because you spoke the truth, let me remind everyone of the media's repetition of Bush's claims that Iraq had weapons on mass destruction, of the endless blatherings about Whitewater that amounted to nothing, of the smearing of Wen Ho Lee's reputation, etc.

Karma's gonna be motherfucker, you spiteful losers.
"Corduroy pillows... they're making headlines"
- unknown wise man

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DE FACTO
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Post by DE FACTO » Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:32 am

genghis wrote:tancorix, bluebird, DF, kelly, et al. -- pulling together a unified response will be much more effective than engaging 1:1 with rex, ed, rodney, et al.

that includes not only posting here, but in refutations to the media.

each post here fuels their fire, each individual letter-to-the-editor actually fragments us, for now. please chill, just for a bit.
seems like a good idea to me.

no more from me on this topic.

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