Self-righteous, wealth-resenting burners running amok

[Elderberry]

It's also true that you can get struck by lightning on the playa. It's true. It happens. It happened this year. I'd consider that a giver threat to my good time at burning man than any PnP camp. Why isn't anyone ranting on about the lightning? It makes about as much sense as ranting on about the PnPs.

It's clear. They're here. Get used to it.

[kiboy]

It's easier to fight the Man than God. Of course you'll still likely lose.

[Lonesomebri]

It's also true that you can get struck by lightning on the playa. It's true. It happens. It happened this year. I'd consider that a giver threat to my good time at burning man than any PnP camp. Why isn't anyone ranting on about the lightning? It makes about as much sense as ranting on about the PnPs.
It's clear. They're here. Get used to it.

Ha, during a break in the deluge, some Black Rock Rangers were making the rounds and keeping busy. One pointed to some conduit sticking up 10 foot and warned us about getting fried. I looked around at the half completed 20 foot domes and various scaffolding, the mish mash of stuff jutting up into the sky.... But, yeah, the Rangers were there telling us it would be best to take down the conduit, which was not done. Anyway, if the argument has come around to claiming that no man-made rules or regulations can or will be enacted governing Plug and Plays on the playa, that this is against natural law itself, like trying to control lightning.....which is done all the time, but anyway... Last year was an uproar over drones. They are still with us, but there have been numerous changes in how they are operated on the playa during the Burn. It's not god's fricken will.

[TomServo]

I don't care about rich people..let them play to!! I just hate the fuckers who create the resorts. Radical inclusion does NOT mean inviting burglars into your home...that's radical stupidity. Fuck Plug N Plays!

[Simon of the Playa]

Much has been said, and much will be written about Decommodification.

this is what it means to me.

If for instance, you find your true calling at burning man, let's just say it's Poi Spinning, and after you get home to defaultia, you spin and you spin and eventually you become so good, you're like the BassNectar of Poi Spinning.

in fact, You're On the Cover of Poi People Magazine, and you're doing all right, you're actually making a living doing what you like to do best.

because you love it.

now, when you go out and perform, you tell people, "Burning Man changed my life, it allowed me to be who i am", and share that Burning Man is the best place on earth, and so on.

you're not making residuals everytime you mention the playa...

you're not getting a check for every click.

you do it because you love it.

HOWEVER.....if you go to the playa, and your intention is to Market a Product, a Service, an Idea or a Person, than you have to ask yourself
"WHY AM I GOING TO BURNING MAN?"

is it to promote your new album? is it to Sell Records? is It to network so you can find venture capital for your start up? is it to give away Energy Drinks hoping that the Brand will be associated with the "cool" that is burning man?

are you MAKING A PROFIT off of the back of the Man? ( and i want to be perfectly clear, those vendors who have proper permission to service what needs to be serviced SHOULD make a profit, thats why they are in business )

ask yourself "WHY"......and if the answer is Love, i am happy to welcome you.

if the answer is money, or any of its forms, then you Love Money, and quite frankly, you are doing it wrong.

So, WHAT ARE YOUR INTENTIONS?

if it isnt done with love, please don't bother,

burning man sucks...

dont go.

please, don't go.

also....one more thing......Forgive, but not forget.

yeah, i know i've been calling for blood, but i thought about this quite a bit, and you know what, fuck it....

seriously, there is nothing i can do to make those particular board members lives any more shitty than they are now...

man, it must suck to be them..

the community despises them....

i actually feel sorry for them....i may not have shitloads of money, but i have shit loads of friends, and when i die, i hope people say i was a "good Man"....not a good businessman, not a good CEO, not a good venture capitalist, a good man....period.

so yeah....i forgive....i won't forget, but i forgive.

and i still love burning man with all of my heart, and am willing to work to ensure it continues on, and brings magic into other's lives, just as it has to mine.

let us fix what's broken, let's mend what is torn.

[omegared]

It's also true that you can get struck by lightning on the playa. It's true. It happens. It happened this year. I'd consider that a giver threat to my good time at burning man than any PnP camp. Why isn't anyone ranting on about the lightning? It makes about as much sense as ranting on about the PnPs.

This scared the #$^& out of me, struck not too far from my camp and my mind was still a little shall we say "frazzled" from the night before.

[kiboy]

Makes the pyrotechnics seem a little tame huh! Mother nature is mostly bitchy.

[kiboy]

Much has been said, and much will be written about Decommodification.

this is what it means to me.

If for instance, you find your true calling at burning man, let's just say it's Poi Spinning, and after you get home to defaultia, you spin and you spin and eventually you become so good, you're like the BassNectar of Poi Spinning.

in fact, You're On the Cover of Poi People Magazine, and you're doing all right, you're actually making a living doing what you like to do best.

because you love it.

now, when you go out and perform, you tell people, "Burning Man changed my life, it allowed me to be who i am", and share that Burning Man is the best place on earth, and so on.

you're not making residuals everytime you mention the playa...

you're not getting a check for every click.

you do it because you love it.

HOWEVER.....if you go to the playa, and your intention is to Market a Product, a Service, an Idea or a Person, than you have to ask yourself
"WHY AM I GOING TO BURNING MAN?"

is it to promote your new album? is it to Sell Records? is It to network so you can find venture capital for your start up? is it to give away Energy Drinks hoping that the Brand will be associated with the "cool" that is burning man?

are you MAKING A PROFIT off of the back of the Man? ( and i want to be perfectly clear, those vendors who have proper permission to service what needs to be serviced SHOULD make a profit, thats why they are in business )

ask yourself "WHY"......and if the answer is Love, i am happy to welcome you.

if the answer is money, or any of its forms, then you Love Money, and quite frankly, you are doing it wrong.

So, WHAT ARE YOUR INTENTIONS?

if it isnt done with love, please don't bother,

burning man sucks...

dont go.

please, don't go.

also....one more thing......Forgive, but not forget.

yeah, i know i've been calling for blood, but i thought about this quite a bit, and you know what, fuck it....

seriously, there is nothing i can do to make those particular board members lives any more shitty than they are now...

man, it must suck to be them..

the community despises them....

i actually feel sorry for them....i may not have shitloads of money, but i have shit loads of friends, and when i die, i hope people say i was a "good Man"....not a good businessman, not a good CEO, not a good venture capitalist, a good man....period.

so yeah....i forgive....i won't forget, but i forgive.

and i still love burning man with all of my heart, and am willing to work to ensure it continues on, and brings magic into other's lives, just as it has to mine.

let us fix what's broken, let's mend what is torn.

And if P&Ps actually get theme camp status, (correct me if I'm wrong on this because I'm not sure that's true) then here are the guidelines I found from the BM site for their operation.

"Theme camps are the interactive core of Burning Man." Harley K. DuBois, Burning Man's Director of Community Services & Playa Safety Council, hesitated a second. "I hate to call this a rule, but if I have to have one it's simple: A theme camp must be participatory." It's a playful challenge to the vast reductive desert landscape, an expansion of the infectious celebratory nature of the event. "The camps keep getting bigger and better, more thought-out and polished. But," she spoke firmly now, "you always welcome anybody and everybody." We offer some guidelines to help you plan your project.

Your theme camp should create an ambience, a visual presence, in some way provide a communal space or provide activity. It may be the anchor for a larger event taking place.

[BBadger]

And if P&Ps actually get theme camp status, (correct me if I'm wrong on this because I'm not sure that's true) then here are the guidelines I found from the BM site for their operation.

"Theme camps are the interactive core of Burning Man." Harley K. DuBois, Burning Man's Director of Community Services & Playa Safety Council, hesitated a second. "I hate to call this a rule, but if I have to have one it's simple: A theme camp must be participatory." It's a playful challenge to the vast reductive desert landscape, an expansion of the infectious celebratory nature of the event. "The camps keep getting bigger and better, more thought-out and polished. But," she spoke firmly now, "you always welcome anybody and everybody." We offer some guidelines to help you plan your project.

Your theme camp should create an ambience, a visual presence, in some way provide a communal space or provide activity. It may be the anchor for a larger event taking place.

That's how it already works for any placed theme camp. General theme camps are just camps with themes; any camp can have a theme. Why this emphasis on PnP camps and assuming that they're not pulling their weight?

Many of these PnP camps are already doing this. They're hosting events/art, decorating their camps, or other stuff to fit in. In fact, a lot of these camps would be considered model camps (LNT, etc.). In other cases, it didn't matter anyway: they were camped out in the boondocks and nobody paid them a second glance except for the odd RV-rings you'd see on satellite photos.

There's nothing really special about PnP camps other than the funding that goes on outside the jurisdiction of the event. Even that's not all that special considering the whole camp dues system, the negotiation of services and product purchases everyone does, and the basic participation in the economic system that drives society. Different scales, same ol' shit.

[Simon of the Playa]

straight from th Harvey's mouth...

( comments )


http://blog.burningman.com/2014/02/tenp ... principle/

[kiboy]

And if P&Ps actually get theme camp status, (correct me if I'm wrong on this because I'm not sure that's true) then here are the guidelines I found from the BM site for their operation.

"Theme camps are the interactive core of Burning Man." Harley K. DuBois, Burning Man's Director of Community Services & Playa Safety Council, hesitated a second. "I hate to call this a rule, but if I have to have one it's simple: A theme camp must be participatory." It's a playful challenge to the vast reductive desert landscape, an expansion of the infectious celebratory nature of the event. "The camps keep getting bigger and better, more thought-out and polished. But," she spoke firmly now, "you always welcome anybody and everybody." We offer some guidelines to help you plan your project.

Your theme camp should create an ambience, a visual presence, in some way provide a communal space or provide activity. It may be the anchor for a larger event taking place.

That's how it already works for any placed theme camp. General theme camps are just camps with themes; any camp can have a theme. Why this emphasis on PnP camps and assuming that they're not pulling their weight?

Many of these PnP camps are already doing this. They're hosting events/art, decorating their camps, or other stuff to fit in. In fact, a lot of these camps would be considered model camps (LNT, etc.). In other cases, it didn't matter anyway: they were camped out in the boondocks and nobody paid them a second glance except for the odd RV-rings you'd see on satellite photos.

There's nothing really special about PnP camps other than the funding that goes on outside the jurisdiction of the event. Even that's not all that special considering the whole camp dues system, the negotiation of services and product purchases everyone does, and the basic participation in the economic system that drives society. Different scales, same ol' shit.

I wasn't assuming anything. That's why I framed it with a question in (). I'm here gathering information. As I said I've been out of the loop for many years. Unlike you I haven't made up my mind and so I have nothing to defend and am not in full attack mode, yet.

And to further my education I'd love to get your view on what Simon just posted above with Larry's supposed positions on this issue of commodification. How would you interpret what he is saying in relation to P&Ps? Seriously, I'm just trying to figure out a position to take here. I seriously haven't made up my mind on all aspects and what ever stance I do take, IMO does not mean that maybe I don't belong at burning man. As far as I know I'm still within the 10 principle framework with my actions. I don't even plan on buying ice or coffee.

[Simon of the Playa]

whatever bananas i got, you can have half

[FIGJAM]

As I haven't done "bananas" in several years, half of YOUR "bananas" would probably kill me!!!

[kiboy]

Share half with me.

[Jovankat]

whatever bananas i got, you can have half

There's some really interesting research that shows that a sense of fairness is actually a cultural construct. Which suggests a culture's concept of fairness could be shifted over time. The trick is probably shifting it in the right direction though. Which I guess is exactly why it is worth having this conversation.

[tatonka]

I feel sorry for the plug and play people , part of the adventure of going was putting all your own stuff together

[Bin Noddin]

From today's Jackrabbit Speaks:

Turnkey Camps at Burning Man: an Ongoing Conversation

Turnkey camps in Black Rock City are the talk of the community lately, and understandably so. Theme camps that provide all-inclusive camping services for (sometimes large) fees mean that many people visit Black Rock City who wouldn’t otherwise experience Burning Man, but they also raise questions about Radical Self-Reliance, Communal Effort and Decommodification that challenge our core values.

While this is going to be an ongoing conversation, we wanted to let you know that we share your concerns. Right now we're taking in your feedback, looking at the situation carefully, and talking to the parties involved. We’re trying to create an accurate picture of what’s happening – we are gathering facts to understand the scope and nature of the problems associated with Turnkey camps. This is a continuation of a process that started with a roundtable discussion with Turnkey camp organizers two years ago, http://blog.burningman.com/2012/03/tenp ... rock-city/ , and included the creation of Turnkey Camping Guidelines.

Right now our various teams are deep in their debrief processes for the 2014 event - what worked, what didn't, and what changes should be made for next year. Turnkey camps are currently being discussed at all levels of the organization and we are reviewing the options available for making positive changes.

And, we’d appreciate your formal input. If you have had a first hand experience with a Turnkey camp, either as a producer, a staff member, a participant or as a community member, please let us know about your experience through our feedback form. Turnkey Camps at Burning Man — an Ongoing Conversation

Turnkey camps in Black Rock City are the talk of the community lately, and understandably so. Theme camps that provide all-inclusive camping services for (sometimes large) fees mean that many people visit Black Rock City who wouldn’t otherwise experience Burning Man, but they also raise questions about Radical Self-Reliance, Communal Effort and Decommodification that challenge our core values.

While this is going to be an ongoing conversation, we wanted to let you know that we share your concerns. Right now we're taking in your feedback, looking at the situation carefully, and talking to the parties involved. We’re trying to create an accurate picture of what’s happening – we are gathering facts to understand the scope and nature of the problems associated with Turnkey camps. This is a continuation of a process that started with a roundtable discussion with Turnkey camp organizers two years ago, and included the creation of Turnkey Camping Guidelines.

Right now our various teams are deep in their debrief processes for the 2014 event - what worked, what didn't, and what changes should be made for next year. Turnkey camps are currently being discussed at all levels of the organization and we are reviewing the options available for making positive changes.

And, we’d appreciate your formal input. If you have had a first hand experience with a Turnkey camp – either as a producer, a staff member, a participant or as a community member, please let us know about your experience through our feedback form. http://www.burningman.com/participate/f ... ack%20form

We know that if we all work together as a community, we can find a way to stay true to Radical Inclusion without undermining the rest of the Ten Principles. This community has faced similar challenges throughout its history, and this probably won't be the last one. Indeed, our society would not be a real community if such challenges did not occur.

We'll figure out the way forward together.

Stay tuned for more on this topic in the near future!

[Lonesomebri]

From today's Jackrabbit Speaks:
Turnkey Camps at Burning Man: an Ongoing Conversation

My favorite part of "conversations" are how they involve more than one voice, they involve others, and a conversation is heard.

But why is Jackrabbit Speaks bringing up this issue? This is not me, or some sore losers, this is someone who is kinda accepted as a source of BM info. But he keeps this issue alive in his message. Isn't this an internal matter? Nothing can be done about anything anyway. Are there any facts supporting the allegations? Wouldn't this issue resolve itself if left ignored? Why didn't he mention the ice camps? It's an interesting tact for JRS to bring this mess up at all, almost as if forced to by public input and outrage, but whatever. Same thing that is making the Bmorg access the situation, public input and outrage.

I love you self-righteous, wealth-resenting burners running amok.

[forty_eight]

I feel sorry for the plug and play people , part of the adventure of going was putting all your own stuff together

this is how i legitimately feel, too

and having pride in the camp you built

70K ways to burn, tho ... or whatever.

[kiboy]

Well that's the issue right? Are all 70,000 ways acceptable to the community or to Borg? Can't bring your dog anymore, or a firearm or fireworks etc. The issue imo is does limiting the ways people get to burn add to or detract from the quality for the overall population.

[RedHeaven]

Much has been said, and much will be written about Decommodification.

this is what it means to me.

If for instance, you find your true calling at burning man, let's just say it's Poi Spinning, and after you get home to defaultia, you spin and you spin and eventually you become so good, you're like the BassNectar of Poi Spinning.

in fact, You're On the Cover of Poi People Magazine, and you're doing all right, you're actually making a living doing what you like to do best.

because you love it.

now, when you go out and perform, you tell people, "Burning Man changed my life, it allowed me to be who i am", and share that Burning Man is the best place on earth, and so on.

you're not making residuals everytime you mention the playa...

you're not getting a check for every click.

you do it because you love it.

HOWEVER.....if you go to the playa, and your intention is to Market a Product, a Service, an Idea or a Person, than you have to ask yourself
"WHY AM I GOING TO BURNING MAN?"

is it to promote your new album? is it to Sell Records? is It to network so you can find venture capital for your start up? is it to give away Energy Drinks hoping that the Brand will be associated with the "cool" that is burning man?

are you MAKING A PROFIT off of the back of the Man? ( and i want to be perfectly clear, those vendors who have proper permission to service what needs to be serviced SHOULD make a profit, thats why they are in business )

ask yourself "WHY"......and if the answer is Love, i am happy to welcome you.

if the answer is money, or any of its forms, then you Love Money, and quite frankly, you are doing it wrong.

So, WHAT ARE YOUR INTENTIONS?

if it isnt done with love, please don't bother,

burning man sucks...

dont go.

please, don't go.

also....one more thing......Forgive, but not forget.

yeah, i know i've been calling for blood, but i thought about this quite a bit, and you know what, fuck it....

seriously, there is nothing i can do to make those particular board members lives any more shitty than they are now...

man, it must suck to be them..

the community despises them....

i actually feel sorry for them....i may not have shitloads of money, but i have shit loads of friends, and when i die, i hope people say i was a "good Man"....not a good businessman, not a good CEO, not a good venture capitalist, a good man....period.

so yeah....i forgive....i won't forget, but i forgive.

and i still love burning man with all of my heart, and am willing to work to ensure it continues on, and brings magic into other's lives, just as it has to mine.

let us fix what's broken, let's mend what is torn.

aaaaaaahhhh I love this !!!

[Elderberry]

Actually, the more I think about this, I am coming to the conclusion that a total PnP experience is impossible no matter how much money a person spends. With the harsh and unexpected conditions of the desert, people, regardless of how much money they spend, need to be prepared far beyond what their money can buy.

That being said, there really is no good reason there can't be an upscale experience that actually combines both worlds. There's no reason that PnP camps can't require their attendees to read the First Timers Guide, Survival Guide, The 10 Principles. There's no reason that PnP camps can't make it a requirement that their members moop, help with certain basic elements of setup, working the bar or whatever activity the camp provides.

After all, it seems that the main reason everybody is bitching about PnP is that the members don't have to do anything--and consequently they really aren't prepared for desert conditions, they don't learn the essence of the event and consequently they aren't getting the full value of their investment no matter what the cost.

So what then, if they don't actually have to do all their own cooking (though there could be a pot luck lunch or dinner requirement), or building their own shelter or packing in all of their supplies.

Wouldn't that keep everybody happy? (more or less )

[forty_eight]

i think they miss out on the vulnerability that actual self reliance affords

which i tend to think of as a big impetus to 'transformative opportunties'

getting well out of your comfort zone, struggling and prevailing or not - but learning the whole way.

when a PnPer leverages their experiences from the Burn in defaultia, are they going to throw in with their blood, sweat and tears to make something bigger, better or more workable.

or instead, make a big financial commitment and hole up in their bought and paid for fortress

which is what they might have 'learned' from burning man as a $17K PnPer

and i think that misses the point - at least for me

we build it and celebrate that absurd phenomenon

if you financed it, what are you celebrating?

it's all just something included in the package as amenities to be enjoyed

"look what these crazy people thought up. aren't they swell."

at least, that is what i fear the result might be

/end friday procrastination rant

[Lonesomebri]

Actually, the more I think about this,

The conversation is getting boring and nothing said here will have any effect as o the outcome. That's the only reason I wish it would stop and people would use the link to make their voices heard where they might actually make a difference. I see now why you're lonesome.

Why are you posting here? You should submit your ideas to the proper official forum where it might do some good.....just saying....
http://www.burningman.com/participate/f ... _2014.html

Is there a reason you feel that complaints from others about Plug and Plays should not be discussed here in the open, yet defenses of the Plug and Plays by you have a place here?

[kiboy]

Not to mention that your input is only wanted if you attended in 2014. I think the p&p issue predates that.

[Elderberry]

Yes. Because there is only so much complaining and whining I can take. Every once in a while (rarely) someone actually posts something on a positive or constructive note which is actually worthy of a reply or causes me to actually want to engage. Face it, PnP is here to stay. So, you might as well wrap your head around that and start thinking of positive, constructive approaches to integrate them into the event or not only will you be miserable (and lonely ) over it, but you'll be pissing me off!

Is there a reason you feel that complaints from others about Plug and Plays should not be discussed here in the open, yet defenses of the Plug and Plays by you have a place here?

[kiboy]

What am I missing here? Are you forced to stay engaged in this topic once you've had enough? I need to go back and read the forum guidelines. I think I may be in violation.

[Elderberry]

What am I missing here? Are you forced to stay engaged in this topic once you've had enough? I need to go back and read the forum guidelines. I think I may be in violation.

You're definitely in violation.

[kiboy]

MOD ABUSE!

[Elderberry]

MOD ABUSE!

Oh, couldn't you tell? My mod hat was off.