ack is there any trutch to this website?

[respecttheplanet]

I have 2 questions I am currently pursuing:

1: Does the use of "Burning Man" in the site name of www.stopburningman.org violate any legal usage of the Burning Man name? I know the org is very aggressive on protecting its use of the name and registered trademarks and feel this might be something worth a look by the legal team.

2: The use of falsified information in the domain registration violates the domain registration terms set forth by the registrar for the domain in question. A quick search of whois at Network Solutions shows the domain registrar to be: "Sponsoring Registrar:R34-LROR". Next a quick visit to: www.pir.org or the Public Interest Registry shows this site was registered by Dotster, Inc. Next I paid a visit to Dotster's site and found this little blurb:

>> 5.4 Information updating and accuracy obligations. As a condition to continued registration of your domain, you must keep the Registration Information current, complete and accurate. You may access your Registration Information in Dotster, Inc.'s possession to review, modify or update such Registration Information, by accessing Dotster, Inc.'s domain manager service, or similar service, made available at our Web site. In accordance with ICANN policies, you acknowledge and agree that if you willfully provide inaccurate information or fail to update your Registration Information promptly will constitute a material breach of this Agreement and may result in the cancellation of your domain registration. You further agree that your failure to respond in less than ten (10) calendar days to inquiries by Dotster, Inc. concerning the accuracy of the Registration Information associated with your domain registration shall constitute a material breach of this Agreement and will be sufficient basis for cancellation of your domain registration.

My point in posting this? If anyone else is as sick of this crap as I am, don't just grumble about it. Contact Dotster and challenge this guy's registration. If he's going to launch attacks I think he should have the balls to stand there and take credit for what he says. Right now this guy is hiding behind a bogus address, multiple sock puppets and he wants us to believe him? Enough. If he won't clean up his act, I for one intend to ask the registrar to investigate and if he doesn't check out...well 10 days from now the domain is history!

This is exactly what was meant about the BMORG folks (or their zealot fans) taking "measures" against those that speak out.
You can't deny what's going on up there, so you try to silence those that are speaking out.
Just like the Burning Man Information Minister...errr... Maid Marian. And now you're trying to bring in BMORG's "legal team." The "Leave No Trace" event is looking more & more corporate all the time.

Are you actually going to stand there and deny that the actions of Burning Man & Black Rock City, LLC are NOT harming the environment?

[BlueBirdPoof]

Are you actually going to stand there and deny that the actions of Burning Man & Black Rock City, LLC are NOT harming the environment?

(Enough socks for a centipede.)
Human activity has been changing the environment in that area since we drove the mammoths extinct--if not before. To pretend we don't isn't reasonable. Of course, BM could shut up shop, take its tents and go home, leaving the land to the tender embrace of the extraction (mining, grazing) industries that tend to dominate public land use in Nevada. Talk about unwilling-to-negotiate, cult behavior. Yes, the land needs better protection--everywhere, not just Humboldt and Pershing Counties, Nevada. So, are you picking on BM because, all in all, it's just not as big as mineral and cattle interests, or are you grinding your ax simply to get BM and this is just (to mix a metaphor) your latest ammo purchase?

[stuart]

So we are to expose ourselves while the rest of the people here remain anonymously hidden behind their avatars? Hello pot? This is kettle...

hey spaz, look at my face to the left, read my name by it. Take yer kettle and pot and shove em up yer ass.

[Lydia Love]

zealot fans

Zealotry is a poison. No doubt. I find fanatical burning man lovers and fanatical burning man haters to be equally objectionable. Both camps are drinking the same fucking flavor of Kool-Aid and they don't even notice.

[stuart]

unjon, while woodward and berstein had their source in deepthroat, they did not come forward until they could corroborate aspects of his tale. That used to be how it was done. Now it simply requires a press kit from the AEP for a story to be printed.

[respecttheplanet]

Human activity has been changing the environment in that area since we drove the mammoths extinct--if not before. To pretend we don't isn't reasonable. Of course, BM could shut up shop, take its tents and go home, leaving the land to the tender embrace of the extraction (mining, grazing) industries that tend to dominate public land use in Nevada. Talk about unwilling-to-negotiate, cult behavior. Yes, the land needs better protection--everywhere, not just Humboldt and Pershing Counties, Nevada. So, are you picking on BM because, all in all, it's just not as big as mineral and cattle interests, or are you grinding your ax simply to get BM and this is just (to mix a metaphor) your latest ammo purchase?

You see, mineral & cattle interests do not bring over 30,000 to one location at the same time.

I'm still waiting for someone to actually claim that it's NOT affecting the areas ecosystem. Nobody has denied that fact yet, they've all tried to skirt around it.

[BlueBirdPoof]

Aha. Now I get it. One week's intensive usage with intensive clean-up with 51 weeks to recover causes more damage than year-round overgrazing or a whole mountain of toxic mine tailings with environmental controls enforced years later by lawsuit. It all makes sence to me now. And after all, the extraction industries are entitled to public land and the people aren't.
The Tsongass--a much more pristine wilderness--actually needs saving.
I better go get everyone on my Yahoo parakeet list to make posts here about the evils of teflon and scented candles.

[Lydia Love]

I'm still waiting for someone to actually claim that it's NOT affecting the areas ecosystem. Nobody has denied that fact yet, they've all tried to skirt around it.

It's affecting the areas... DUH! However, it's impossible to be a human being in this day and age and not share some burden of responsibilty for having an affect on the environment around you and around the world. Every facet of our existence has some small or large impact, the manufacturing process of the shoes you wear, what kind of food you eat - where that food comes from, the electricity being sucked up while writing lunatic manifestos, paper or plastic, *everything*.

So it all comes down to choices - and if you want to convince anyone to make the choice of not going to burning man the burden of proof is on *you*. Excuse me for finding your methods of investigation and scientific method suspect. So far you haven't made my choice to continue going any more difficult to make.

[respecttheplanet]

Aha. Now I get it. One week's intensive usage with intensive clean-up with 51 weeks to recover causes more damage than year-round overgrazing or a whole mountain of toxic mine tailings with environmental controls enforced years later by lawsuit. It all makes sence to me now. And after all, the extraction industries are entitled to public land and the people aren't.
The Tsongass--a much more pristine wilderness--actually needs saving.
I better go get everyone on my Yahoo parakeet list to make posts here about the evils of teflon and scented candles.

Go look at the photos. The "intensive clean-up" has been SO effective. *snort* See the lowered water tables and dead vegetation around the area? How about the litter left behind on the playa? Chunks of rebar have been found. The BLM inspection transects are pretty skewed.

Basically it sounds like you're saying that everything is just fine and you really don't care what's going on up there because Burning Man is such a tiny event and there are much bigger fish in the sea.

Is there anything wrong with BMORG taking responsibility for their actions?

[Tancorix]

Sock puppet #3. We'll see how many more you can create before some new checks and balances go into effect next week.

Now Mr. Sock Puppet, let me feed your ego by saying you have some good points. Points that deserve discussion and that a few of us have wondered when we turn a critical eye on the ORG and the event we love so much. No matter where anybody goes there's going to be an impact. I for one understand that. Heck I even agree with a lot of what you wrote...if it's indeed happening it's a problem. The abandoned art car, the people in the hot springs...yeah I noticed all that on your website and I don't care for it.

But...who are you to be the one to speak up and change the process? Your coming into this with some good intentions, but your message is going to get lost in a blizzard of spelling errors, poor website design, and an approach that is going to alienate more people than draw them in to even consider your message. Then you are hiding behind multiple sock puppets, domain registrations that are wrong, and who knows what other issues are lurking out there if I started to dig into it. The whole point is you have a credibility problem. And that's what I'm going to hit on, and hit hard.

If you want me to shut up, it's real simple what I want. Clean up the domain registration to reflect something a little more believable. Don't post an address in Gerlach that doesn't exist. If your going to take on the ORG, have the balls to stand up for what you believe in and your message. Suppose you get some changes made so the frog pond gets more protection and people notice the problem of abandoned art cars. Right now who's going to get credit for that success? There are 3 sock puppets that I know of and a bogus address to give credit to. That's wrong. So how about cleaning up your act, sharpening your message, and get on the ball! Burners are not a stupid bunch, many of us have critical thinking skills and are open minded enough to listen to a well crafted argument. Your argument is just not hitting home enough, it's not convincing enough. Why did you roll out your website without packing it with details gleaned from the FOIA requests? Where are your background cites to the claims you make? Give us details, and roll out a site that back you up without question. I'll shut up now but man, you need to get your act together.

[Badger]

Zealotry is a poison. No doubt. I find fanatical burning man lovers and fanatical burning man haters to be equally objectionable. Both camps are drinking the same fucking flavor of Kool-Aid and they don't even notice.

<running off to the crush thread for Lydia>

[Rob the Wop]

Pretty much how I see it. He's insulting and fanatical. That and the multiple sock puppets convinces me that he has issues that will slant his views irrationally. I give the same credence to conspiracy theory types.

[Tancorix]

And remember...
It's just a fucking camping trip....

The Black Rock Desert is really a playa, and there is a water table under there and interesting geologic features for those who care to study such things.

The ORG is not always right, and is open to changes in policy and process.

Not every vehicle on the playa leaks oil and spews massive amounts of hydrocarbons everywhere.

And while BM is important to me, I get just as much out of the trip out there and back as I do the event itself. I love seeing the Glenwood Canyon in Colorado and the LaSal Mountains in Utah. If you wanted to focus on environmental issues, why not fight Yucca Mountain or the proposed Nuclear repositiory in Utah, or the burning of chemical weapons in Utah? Those actions and problems are a lot nastier than 30,000 people spending a week in the desert.

[Badger]

If you wanted to focus on environmental issues, why not fight Yucca Mountain

Or why not not fight it and investigate the lack of options that such a facility represents.

[BlueBirdPoof]

The BLM inspection transects are pretty skewed.

Basically it sounds like you're saying that everything is just fine and you really don't care what's going on up there because Burning Man is such a tiny event and there are much bigger fish in the sea.

Is there anything wrong with BMORG taking responsibility for their actions?

Your arguements are pretty skewed. Admittedly, I don't have first hand knowledge of the clean up process and success. I took one look at the website and said "More rants. I'm not wasting my time on this." And it's not just wspr rants that I'm sick of, the world is full of rants and I don't have time to listen to them all. I'm with what Tancorix, and Rob the Wop and Badger and Lydia have said. And if you'd spent time on the board lurking and reading past posts, you'd find that I have mentioned the playa ecology AND expressed a lack of admiration for Larry Harvey. If you had a chance of getting anyone to listen to your arguements, it might have been me. But--at this point everyone who participates regularly has had a bellyfull of innuendo and straw men and ad hominum attacks and self-rightiously smug axe-grinders who will not talk of their own experience but instead trade in rumor and half-truths and kick us in the teeth for sins they attribute to us. If you don't want to offer a bunch of apologies and spend some time developing a rhetorical style that indicates respect for instead of contempt of your audience, then whine in your corner about the lack of respect you receive in return.
BTW--I hated the phrase "Save the Planet" for years. I find it smug and the people who use it to be judgemental. A sence of humor would do you a world of good in gaining respect from people on this board. Unless, of course, you actually are another socky branch of the shoe tree that is wspr.

[allanon2]

Pretty much how I see it. He's insulting and fanatical. That and the multiple sock puppets convinces me that he has issues that will slant his views irrationally. I give the same credence to conspiracy theory types.

you are the conspiracy theory guy if you think i am someoen else
what is insluting?
the truth listed on the website?
argue aginast those pictures. you can't can you? that leaves the only option to try to discredit the messanger when the truth is so apprainent. maybe just maybe i will eb quiet. no not never! i have been for too long so have others.

once peopel listen and think for themselves then i will accomplish my goal
go take a look and see?
http://www.stopburningman.org/

[respecttheplanet]

So it all comes down to choices - and if you want to convince anyone to make the choice of not going to burning man the burden of proof is on *you*. Excuse me for finding your methods of investigation and scientific method suspect. So far you haven't made my choice to continue going any more difficult to make.

How much more proof do you want? Look at what's happening up there. By going, *you are supporting it!*

Question the BMORG folks if you want. Take a look at their replies. Go on, ask them.

[respecttheplanet]

Sock puppet #3. We'll see how many more you can create before some new checks and balances go into effect next week.

There are different people behind these names.

Now Mr. Sock Puppet, let me feed your ego by saying you have some good points. Points that deserve discussion and that a few of us have wondered when we turn a critical eye on the ORG and the event we love so much. No matter where anybody goes there's going to be an impact. I for one understand that. Heck I even agree with a lot of what you wrote...if it's indeed happening it's a problem. The abandoned art car, the people in the hot springs...yeah I noticed all that on your website and I don't care for it.

Thank you. The blatant disregard for the already peculiar policies set forth by the BM organization is reason enough to question "What's going on?"

But...who are you to be the one to speak up and change the process? Your coming into this with some good intentions, but your message is going to get lost in a blizzard of spelling errors, poor website design, and an approach that is going to alienate more people than draw them in to even consider your message. Then you are hiding behind multiple sock puppets, domain registrations that are wrong, and who knows what other issues are lurking out there if I started to dig into it. The whole point is you have a credibility problem. And that's what I'm going to hit on, and hit hard.

I'm not the one making the spelling errors. Like I said, it's not just one person with a bunch of names. And "poor website design?" I didn't design the site. I'm also not a website designer. I fail to see how "poor website design" reflects on anyones credibility.
The domain registration issue is being addressed. It has already been proven that some fanatical types will cross the line, given the chance.
The evidence is credible. You can still go there today and view some of it.

If you want me to shut up, it's real simple what I want. Clean up the domain registration to reflect something a little more believable. Don't post an address in Gerlach that doesn't exist. If your going to take on the ORG, have the balls to stand up for what you believe in and your message. Suppose you get some changes made so the frog pond gets more protection and people notice the problem of abandoned art cars. Right now who's going to get credit for that success? There are 3 sock puppets that I know of and a bogus address to give credit to. That's wrong. So how about cleaning up your act, sharpening your message, and get on the ball! Burners are not a stupid bunch, many of us have critical thinking skills and are open minded enough to listen to a well crafted argument. Your argument is just not hitting home enough, it's not convincing enough. Why did you roll out your website without packing it with details gleaned from the FOIA requests? Where are your background cites to the claims you make? Give us details, and roll out a site that back you up without question. I'll shut up now but man, you need to get your act together.

I don't think that any of us really care about "getting credit" for anything. I think we'd prefer that the BM organization just be honest about things instead of lying to thousands of people.

The event really is getting out of hand - take a quick look on Google, you'll see that a lot of veteran Burning Man attendees share the same sentiment.

[stopbmorg]

OK, so you think anonymity harms credibility? Fine.

The stopburningman.org WHOIS record has been updated as of 10 minutes ago. The email address in the record works, is checked daily by several people and can receive email. The address and name -- well you can find out for yourself if they are real, since I suppose any statement is going to be disbelieved, regardless. Old time burners from the 80's will recognize it, though. And you can get in touch. For those of you who get exercise by jumping to conclusions and flying off the handle, please note that the WHOIS data may take 24 hours or more to update. It should be complete by Saturday night/Sunday AM.

Let me guess -- next you'll whine that there is no phone #. Sorry, don't need childish crank calls at 3am. But you have more than enough information now to contact us. I doubt anyone will though. We are even willing to accept a written rebuttal, emailed to us, to be posted, unedited, on the stopburningman.org site, without editorial comment or interpretation. Just your words, unadulterated.

[Rob the Wop]

Pretty much how I see it. He's insulting and fanatical. That and the multiple sock puppets convinces me that he has issues that will slant his views irrationally. I give the same credence to conspiracy theory types.

you are the conspiracy theory guy if you think i am someoen else
what is insluting?
the truth listed on the website?
argue aginast those pictures. you can't can you? that leaves the only option to try to discredit the messanger when the truth is so apprainent. maybe just maybe i will eb quiet. no not never! i have been for too long so have others.

once peopel listen and think for themselves then i will accomplish my goal
go take a look and see?
http://www.stopburningman.org/

You're a Samoan that's into slutting?
You get angst at pictures? The truth is apprainent? You will ebb quietly?
What have you been for too long?

Is English your second language? Do you have a first?

[respecttheplanet]

Your arguements are pretty skewed. Admittedly, I don't have first hand knowledge of the clean up process and success.

How do you know they're skewed if you have no knowledge of the clean up process? Some of us have actually participated in it and have personally SEEN BMORG employees lying to the BLM and making excuses.

kick us in the teeth for sins they attribute to us. If you don't want to offer a bunch of apologies and spend some time developing a rhetorical style that indicates respect for instead of contempt of your audience, then whine in your corner about the lack of respect you receive in return.

Nobody is whining about a "lack of respect."

BTW--I hated the phrase "Save the Planet" for years. I find it smug and the people who use it to be judgemental. A sence of humor would do you a world of good in gaining respect from people on this board. Unless, of course, you actually are another socky branch of the shoe tree that is wspr.

Sounds like you pre-judged what we have to say. I am not familiar with "wspr" but I'm going to guess it's someone that has been hanging around here trolling.
Our sense of humor is just fine. We think it's funny when people go to the playa and then complain about the heat. You have to admit that the few people that whip out wireless phones on the playa are kind of entertaining, too.

We're not trolling. What we have shown you is unrefutable fact. Look at Frog Pond. Look at the increased numbers of dunes. Look at the litter that has been left behind at Trego. We couldn't have made up the photos of people in Trego even if we tried. Big packs of Burners, violating the permit.
Dig deeper into other things that happen at the event. Allegedly there have been quite a few sexual assults that have gone largely ignored. We've heard tales of numerous drug arrests, too.

We just want the truth to come out. That's all. It's really not that hard.

[respecttheplanet]

You're a Samoan that's into slutting?
You get angst at pictures? The truth is apprainent? You will ebb quietly?
What have you been for too long?

Is English your second language? Do you have a first?

He's a Canadian with a Hebrew keyboard. Please excuse him and his fat fingers.

And never underestimate the sheer ferocity of an angsty Samoan prostitute.

[Rob the Wop]

Alright then, let's hear the truth.

If the pictures and evidence are premises, what is your conclusion?

What exactly is your opinion of BMORG? Teach us the truth as you see it.

[Tancorix]

I plan to ask Technopatra and the admins once the new rules come out to consolidate this discussion from 4 different threads into one. The divide and conquer strategy is not going to work here.

It takes 48 hours to update whois, and I will wait that long. And I understand the need to keep a silent phone number. That's not a problem.

But if the address links me to a spot halfway up the side of a mountain like the last one, the battle is joined and off I go. You won't like the results if I do that.

All that being said, I do have to thank you for trying to draw attention to the Black Rock Desert. It truly is a special place. As much as I want to see it protected I don't want to have so many restrictions on it's use that I can't justify the time to drive out there and enjoy it. I hope your actions don't provoke the BLM into going the opposite way and restrict ALL access to the playa. Sometimes actions have unintended consequences...hell even my posts may have that. But I hope you find a way to balance protection of the resources with a need to keep access open.

[allanon2]

150 evergreen
boulder creek, ca

rex scates
so now will you talk

I plan to ask Technopatra and the admins once the new rules come out to consolidate this discussion from 4 different threads into one. The divide and conquer strategy is not going to work here.

It takes 48 hours to update whois, and I will wait that long. And I understand the need to keep a silent phone number. That's not a problem.

But if the address links me to a spot halfway up the side of a mountain like the last one, the battle is joined and off I go. You won't like the results if I do that.

All that being said, I do have to thank you for trying to draw attention to the Black Rock Desert. It truly is a special place. As much as I want to see it protected I don't want to have so many restrictions on it's use that I can't justify the time to drive out there and enjoy it. I hope your actions don't provoke the BLM into going the opposite way and restrict ALL access to the playa. Sometimes actions have unintended consequences...hell even my posts may have that. But I hope you find a way to balance protection of the resources with a need to keep access open.

[enthropic]

Sbm.org, Alanon, R.T.P, whatever. I think the way you represent and present your selfs is middle school at best.

Nobody will ever take you seriously. Being respectable enough to be listend to might be years away.

On another note I know some Web designers that would love to help you
...I think your kind of funny, And I dont Mean HA HA !

[stuart]

once again, what lies am I being told?

here's what I know and it is irrefutable. I go to this event and am extremely conscious of the environment and my impact on it. I pick up my own as well as other peoples trash. Why do I exhibit this behaviour? Because the terrible ORG has made it out to be THE top priority. The communication we get on LNT leading up the event is relentless. Now, when I go and have my recreation elsewhere on this planet, while I find myself to be a decent earthkeeper, LNT is NOT in my mind nearly as much as it is at burning man and I sure as hell don't spend the time I do in BRC picking up other peoples shit.

another great one is this assertion that people who used to go to the event but don't go anymore don't like it anymore. Well no shit. That's enlightening. All along I thought those folks just had something else to do that week.

What are you all <ahem> trying to say? What is your message? I am listening, really I am. WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL ME?

[stopbmorg]

But if the address links me to a spot halfway up the side of a mountain like the last one, the battle is joined and off I go. You won't like the results if I do that.

All that being said, I do have to thank you for trying to draw attention to the Black Rock Desert. It truly is a special place. As much as I want to see it protected I don't want to have so many restrictions on it's use that I can't justify the time to drive out there and enjoy it. I hope your actions don't provoke the BLM into going the opposite way and restrict ALL access to the playa. Sometimes actions have unintended consequences...hell even my posts may have that. But I hope you find a way to balance protection of the resources with a need to keep access open.[/quote]

Well, Boulder Creek, CA pretty much *is* on the side of a mountain. But it is there in the Santa Cruz mountains.

Of course any criticism, to be worth anything, should propose a solution, should it not? As soon as some technical difficulties are resolved, and addendum/addition to the Open Letter will be completed. Once we spotlight the problem *and* a solution, it will be interesting to see who (if anyone) supports what I think is a reasonable solution to the problem (it doesn't involve moving the event or shutting it down, even).

We'll see, I suppose.

[stopbmorg]

Consider the notions of patriotism and nationalism. Those two 'isms' are strong enough to blind otherwise intelligent, rational humans into acting irrationally (National Socialist Party of Germany, anyone?).

So consider that BM attendees have been fed a decade+ of BRC, LLC originated spin. Soon the spin becomes truth and the truth becomes fact by way of acceptance without questioning. Just suppose that for the sake of argument for a moment.

Along we come, a group of people who actually don't want to stop BM from existing, just want the *abuses* to stop, and show people that the spin isn't exactly true. In fact, there are some pretty major flaws and cracks in the veil. We're starting to see the 'man behind the curtain' and people don't want to. They rabidly (though wrongly) believe what they have been told over the years, just like American so-called patriots think "America, right or wrong". That attitude is just as wrong as "Larry/BM, right or wrong" or worse, "Larry/BM, always right, period.".

So, look at what we have to offer and show you. Look at what we're digging up and posting for *everyone* to see. Heck, give us a few hours to troubleshoot some web server issues and you can even read up and comment on our proposed solution to the problem (it's a smart one, though I admit it wasn't mine to think of). It's sane, rational and reasonable.

But please remember, all of *us* feel very strongly about the Black Rock Desert, just as lots of *you* feel strongly about Burning Man. The issue for us is that there are problems and BRC, LLC is totally unresponsive. In the end, hopefully pressure by those who make BM what it is (the participants, not the LLC) will lead to positive change that benefits *all* parties.

[stopbmorg]

Technopatra, I'm afraid I have to call you on a lie. The [email protected] email address is checked daily. To date, we have received 4 emails. 1 from hotmail, thanking us for joining, two from our registrar, and a spam.

Besides that, there is more than enough contact information available now for a dialogue. Oddly though, NO ONE has bothered to email. Go figure. So much for open exchange.

www.stopburningman.org

No.

We looked into it when we first heard about it. We emailed them to see where they were coming from, to see if we could talk to them, see if they knew something we didn't, and, surprise surprise, they never responded.

They offer no other contact info, and no way to validate or invalidate their claims. So given that they are both hiding behind their accusations and are unresponsive to us and other burners who've tried to contact them, we've shrugged it off as a hoax.